13-year-old shot in encounter with Seattle police officer

Source: Seattle Times

By Seattle Times staff report

SEATTLE — A 13-year-old is in the hospital with leg wounds after a confrontation with a Seattle police officer during which the officer mistook a cellphone for a weapon.

//SNIP//

The suspect took off a large jacket and threw it on the ground, then lifted up his T-shirt, reached into a pocket and pulled out a black object. The officer, who had his weapon drawn, believed it was a weapon and shot twice, Diaz said.

Read more: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003949613_webshooting14m.html

Have their antenna painted high visibility orange???

Well, since in many cities, they have banned TOY guns, just because of such happenings, it is high time to ban cell phones as well, after all..

It would be worth it, if it just saves ONE child.

:sarcasm:

But cell phones do look similar to the old style phasers on Star Trek!!;)

cell phones with built in tazers.....

Let's see how many people end up on my ignore list THIS time!

(That would be literally everyone blaming the victim.)

Edit: And it was. My ignore list just grew by about ten or twelve people. I feel warm and fuzzy about it, actually- the Authoritarians can go straight to hell for all I care.

Gee, now I'm somebody

My ignore list is empty. I am mature enough to handle differing opinions without getting upset.

I think once I put a person who was really nasty to me on my ignore list, but within a week, I took it off, thinking "now, why do I need to do THAT?" I haven't used it since.

When I see comments like the above, I guess it makes me just want to say, "well, bring it on, I don't care". Some people just like the power, so I'll give it to them.

:hi:

that anyone who talks about their ignore lists and who's on them is a stupid little crybaby best left to be ignored.

Just about anything it seems can get you shot and killed by our peace officers.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LfFfUxBDMDY

Otherwise, the cop might've tasered the kid to death.

"... the officer was patrolling the area near the 2500 block of East Yesler Way around 3 a.m. when he saw two people acting suspiciously. The two people ran when they saw the officer, so the he chased them south one block to the intersection of South Washington Street and 26th Avenue South. Police say the officer shined a spotlight on them and ordered them to put their hands up, police said.

One suspect, a 14-year-old, complied. The other, 13, acted "very agitated" and didn't listen to the officer, who ordered the suspect to put up his hands several times, said John Diaz, deputy chief of operations for Seattle police.

The suspect took off a large jacket and threw it on the ground, then lifted up his T-shirt, reached into a pocket and pulled out a black object. The officer, who had his weapon drawn, believed it was a weapon and shot twice, Diaz said."

The other kid did the right thing and was fine, this kid did not and ended up shot. Such foolishness. And where are the parents? 13 and 14 year-old kids running the streets at 3 am? Nothing good is happening at that hour. It's a shame but the kid is at fault here.

When a cop has drawn down on you, you play by his rules.

Surely, anyone running the streets at that time of day understands that.

panicked.

he is at the big boys table. Yanking a black object while someone has a gun drawn on you..bad idea.

He didn't commit a crime, he was just in a hurry... as might be the case with someone rushing home at 3am.

being approached. Not like the movie, they triggered the action taken.

Why do we, here, have instantaneous, non-questioning sympathy for these idiot kids? And then it's Bad, Bad Policeman.

Do you know any policemen who work inner-city anywhere?

Hesitation in an situation such as this will get you killed.

Even the Seattle police aren't doing that.

It's so much more comfortable to routinely trust whoever is in authority, isn't it.

This was a CHILD who made a huge mistake. I think a lot of people are happier feeling that they will never a problem with the police because they would never do anything STUPID. But you know as well as I do that cops make mistakes, too.

It's too early to know who was at greater fault here. But I'm not going to join the people who are piling on the 13 year old. Let's see what happens in the investigation.

An investigation is warranted. Not saying it was the best outcome, but some people are acting like he walked into disneyland and just shot some kid.

But I have ridden around with inner-city cops (my Uncle)in Houston (for the adrenaline rush when I came back to the States after the military) and those kids know better than to get all hinky when a cop has drawn down.

The article was very clear, the cop had his light on the kids (who had run from him) and his weapon drawn.

A child can kill you just as dead as can an adult. 13 year old kids kill people every day.

Sure, cops make mistakes and some cops are pure evil. But this cop could have easily smoked that kid under those circumstances.

We hardly know anything about these kids, except that they have no record and weren't even charged for graffiti.

You're acting like they are hardened criminals who are accustomed to handling these kind of situations.

I want a fucking link on that bit of crap... "13 year old kids kill people every day"

You blame the victim, love the cops shits fucking fringe my god damn hide...

Fuck the Police...

and I've taken to just putting such people on ignore.

I've so far ignored two, both of whom are donors with over 1000 posts.

I. DO. NOT. TOLERATE. AUTHORITARIANS.

Period.

Could you, for our edification please precisely define Authoritarianism in the context of DU? A definition that would apply to all instances and all scenarios.

I ask this because while I give enough credit to my fellow DU'ers to never label them with the classical definition, the DU definition seems.... vague and tends to morph from one scenario to the next.

And since you have an absolute reaction to 'authoritarians', I must also assume you have an absolute definition that needs no additional qualifiers regardless of the situation.

Thanks...

The Authoritarians.

I consider this definitive.

I have such a long list of ignores that I once purged it to see what happened. I wound up adding the same authoritarians back again as they have not changed... I see there's already one attached to your message...

I prefer to see threads with long exchanges between two people where one is ignored. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know that I'm free from the burden of reading the deranged comments of a likely fucked up nitwit winger.

:)

It's Ihaveafamilyanddon'twanttodie-ism.

If someone whose job involves dealing with violent thugs and murders, which runs the very real risk of being shot to death, is faced with someone reaching into his pocket for something, he's supposed to just wait and see if he's going to die? The police officer didn't kick in the door to a nursery school and start shooting, he caught a suspect who started to pull something out of his pocket.

I hate to break it to you, but when someone's committing a crime and pulls something out of his pocket instead of doing what he's asked, you don't have time to chat with him or interview his family.

It's not being "authoritarian," it's called self-defense. I swear, so many people on this board have mental issues.

And PLEASE put me on your ignore list. PLEASE.

Because they are KIDS.

Kids are not small adults. They do not have the same reasoning abilities or experienc (vicarious or otherwise) as adults.

The kid's move was not smart, but thirteen year old boys are generally really stupid. (Girls at that age are not much better.)

But why did the cop pull a gun on these kids anyway?

What was so henious (other than the fact that they were out at that hour, which doesn't make the parents look too good) about them running that required a gun?

Possible graffitti? That warrents an aimed weapon?

Sigh.

No wonder there are more and more incidents every day where law enforcement gets aways with brutailty, hair triggeritis, and killing children (boot camp story).

Weapons should be pulled as a LAST resort. And fired only if deadly peril is imminent. And where was his stun gun. I'm no fan of tazers, but I would rather a cop pulled one of those than a gun if he is going to fire.

Is this normal procedure when cops encounter kids at night, and the kids run away? Should it be?

from what I saw as a teen in the 1990's, yes. They pull guns on you, when you are 12, in affleuent suburbs, for playing tag in a park lit with staduim lights because the park is closed at dark (never mind the stadium lights).

I shit you not. More than once, in fact.

appropriate in all situations. Anyone out at 3am doing whatever should be aware that when someone points a weapon at you grabbing shit in your pockets is a bad idea.

Kids kill other kids and adults all the time. Being a kid does not make the person any less capable of killing you.

They ran from the police, there were 2 guys involved and one cop, (it appears).

Lets stay on topic, apples and apples.

Weapons are pulled very often by police to maintain control, and of course, only used when deadly force is judged necessary.

It will be interesting to find out why they didn't use them in this situation.

have time..Did not feel a tazer was a good choice when dealing with someone who was potentially armed. Because it was a two on one and a tazer has only one shot...They are not required to use tazers.

They are required to justify the use of deadly force, even if the person shot does not die.

today's 13 year old is not yesterday's 13 year old from the 50's....

You have the 10 year old kids in Peducka that shot at students,
Columbine
Recently the 14 year old mentally unstable kid that had numerous weapons that mommy bought for him....he meant to kill other kids....
The 14 kid in New York that shot up the school he was expelled from

I have worn the uniform and I will not got into more detail than that....

But I found out something that tainted my rose colored view of the world...and that is one reason why I left because I could not live my life like that....

1. There are truely good people in the world....
2. There are truely shitty people in the world...they are of all ages, races, male and female.....and guess what...the one time you make a mistake underestimating who you are dealing with.....you will get killed.

The Parents should be held responsible for 13 year olds being out in the streets at those hours...

I am not saying that all police officers are perfect. I believe that most if not all go into the field because they want to make a difference. The court system is screwed up so much that an officer can arrest someone...be working on the paperwork and that individual can be out of jail before the paperwork is done....

Here is a page that details the number of officers lost...it's no game.
http://www.odmp.org/

My suggestion is for those that fault the police every single time (dont' get me wrong there are many mistakes) call your local police department and ask if they have ride alongs...ride along with them on a late shift and see what kind of crap that they have to put up with from our fellow Americans....

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

a line of reasoning that seems so over the top for me. Your response seems to fit the scenario.

Probably the same reason that some here have instantaneous, non-questioning sympathy for idiot cops!!!!

What would you have done in that situation?

At least the cop had the presence of mind to shoot him in the legs.

He found the experience of police with guns drawn to be traumatic -- and he had difficulty following instructions. It seems to me that most innocent and/or inexperienced persons would have a similar reaction. Someone who had been hardened by his previous experiences with the police or guns may have been able to follow instructions more easily.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3028045&mesg_id=3028133

I read that reply, too.

Now that sort of thing will certainly get your attention.

Make you wet your pants, too.

Pulling a weapon on a person is bound to trigger a fight or flight response. That pretty much goes without saying. In fight or flight mode, the body focuses all of its energy into the sympathetic autonomic nervous system, shutting down systems that are not immediately required for survival. As such, higher order thought processes become more difficult as behavior becomes more instinctual, as is characterized by the autonomic nervous system.

Fight or flight can manifest as a angry, argumentative behavior. (Friedman&Silver 2007)

So, this child's response to a drawn weapon is well within the scope of expected behavior. However, it is worth nothing the police officer's actions are likewise explained via the same concept. He was alone at the wee hours of the morning, faced with two combative suspects. Chances are, he was influenced by his own fight or flight response.

because of his age of 13...the kid is lucky.

the god damn coward, and couldn't hit what he was aiming at...

first, cop second.

IYAM, the cop was looking for a reason to pull the trigger.

Once a week, we are treated to these threads where a "victim" defies a cop in the normal course of duty, and we are supposed to be outraged -- outraged! -- when the logical consequences ensue.

to think properly?

let's wait and SEE what that black object he's pulling from his pants is?"

Are you fucking serious?

And if it was a gun, the cop is dead.

So how often do DU'ers post THOSE stories, the ones where the cop ends up dead, compared to storie such as this?

Do you make sure to visit those threads too?

I highly doubt it.

Actions have consequences whether you are 14 or 40.

and who wants to kill him?

What the hell is with all these people who think police officers have ESP and full omniscient knowledge of all people? He saw two people doing something suspicious at 3:00 a.m., he stops them, one refuses to cooperate and reaches for something in his pocket.

Police officers run the very real risk of being killed by the people they question, and that's exactly how those situations start. Someone's acting funny and starts reaching for something.

I often wonder just how these "outraged" folks would react.

But I do know this - we would be reading their obit on DU.

My Uncle worked the graveyard shift in Houston's 5th (ugh!) Ward. I used to ride around with them when I got out of the service just for the adrenaline rush. And that was early 70s. I shudder to think what it must be like today.

"just for the adrenaline rush"...

And we're supposed to take your word for the righteousness of police state "procedures"...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Huh?

The cop asked the kids -- at 3 am -- to stop, but they ran. Yes, that's defiance.

So the cop chases them down. He tells them to freeze. But the kid starts taking of his coat for some damned reason. That's defiance, too. And then, seeing the cop with weapon drawn and having been told repeatedly to not move, the kid pulls out his cell phone. Aw. He's just an innocent victim -- of his own stupidity.

Maybe it was noisy and he didn't understand instructions, perhaps English isn't his first language.... could have been huffing something and was disoriented, and so on.... however, there's little compassion here for that poor little boy, so we're both wasting our breath.

This isn't about showing compassion for the kid -- he was on the edge of being killed, and I find that horrifying. The question is this: what set of circumstances led to this incident.

The consensus among the cop-haters is (as always) that the cop was wrong. Period. No matter what the kid did and no matter what form of force the cop used, the cop would have been wrong. We've this this time and time again at DU.

For those of us who are grateful to see a cop car patrolling the neighborhood at night and for those of us who recognize stupidity when we see it, we know that this kid could have avoided every bit of this by not being out at 3 am, not running at the sight of the cop, and not pulling some unknown object from his clothing when he was told to freeze.

It's that simple.

or are we?

Sounds like "might makes right" to me.

Unfortunately, in this case, the cop was wrong. He wasn't in danger.

If the cops eyesight (or distance to the kid) was such that he couldn't distinguish the shape of a cellphone from a gun, he wasn't in the position to protect himself, much less the public at large. If the cop had mistook a gun for a cellphone, he and his partners would be dead.

Many young cops today still aren't comfortable with the idea that their job is to assess threat so they can then manage it. You can't assess threat by shooting first and thinking later. This inarguable fact of life does expose the cop to risk, but that has *always* been true of all defenders of the peace. Either they accept that risk as part of the job of protect the rest of the public from it, or they should find another profession.

not in front of your pc.. If you make the wrong call you die. Have a family? Want to see them again? Police ENFORCE LAWS. That means that people are required to comply. That is the standard here and abroad.

Reaching in your pockets or waistline for an object while AT GUN POINT is basis to shoot. The police or any other victim does not have to wait and id the weapon you are reaching for.

You have the comfort of hindsight and none of the context of the situation.

And to follow all instructions. On the other hand, I can understand an inexperienced kid having a panicky reaction, and I would hope that the police would be trained to deal with that calmly.


And I'm still wondering . . . why did the officer have his gun drawn in the first place?

if you reach for a black object in your belt line or pocket while at gun point you will be shot..

The good cops have enough to deal with from the criminals without also having to deal with other cops who shoot before thinking. Believe me, they would be even more pissed off at these trigger-happy cops than I am.

"That means that people are required to comply."

There are many reasons why a willing person wouldn't do that. The kid might not know English. He might be partially deaf. You would sentence him to death for that?

*Well-trained, capable* cops (note the emphasis) understand that the odds of a single, 13-year-old kid whipping out a gun and firing at two police officers who already have him locked are infinitesimally low. They are trained to identify signs of drug intoxication, and would know that two kids spraying out graffiti aren't the type to take those kinds of chances.

The charitable and very likely explanation was that the cop was nervous and squeezed a little too hard on the trigger, not that they felt that the kid was an immediate threat.

"If you make the wrong call you die. Have a family? Want to see them again?"

Can the cheap macho threats - you aren't equipped.

Read my post again about how it's the *job* of cops to take that risk so the public doesn't. And you're wrong, cops are not only LEGALLY REQUIRED to wait long enough to reasonably assess the threat, they are extensively trained on how to do exactly that while minimizing the risk to themselves and others. That's why the *well-trained and capable* cops are looked up to, and deservedly so.

allowing someone to draw a weapon is suicide.

No threat was made to you. However the context is clear. The officer's stakes are his death.

I doubt he was deaf. There were two kids, someone drawing a gun and firing at police would not be a first in law enforcement.

Sorry, there is no reason to reach for a black object while disregarding instructions at 3am and NOT expect a bad outcome.

Everybody knows the drill hold hands up, lay down. Pretty much anything but what moron did.

The cop is taking a minimal chance of getting killed, but it isn't suicide, even rhetorically.

"I doubt he was deaf."

A cop has to entertain those possibilities, on their feet and at the moment. If I can see that possibility in the comfort of my own living room and without training, a cop should be able to even more quickly and efficiently.

So you would sentence an unarmed person to death for panicking. Sorry to hear that, because that includes a lot of law-abiding people. People who don't panic are more often than not the killers.

"No threat was made to you."

My apologies for not catching the rhetorical context.

I guess I'm shit out of luck then. Due to two very injured ankles I cannot get down on the ground. So I guess I'd just get weeded out then.
He was a child! It seems like the people with mental issues, the young and the injured like me just need to get sorted out by the police.
This country is crap and too many people make excuses for it.

When you keep defending the police you become part of the problem and not the solution.
You know damn well you don't have to running from the police for them to shoot you! Why would you shoot a person IN THE BACK for running from you? In America you only have to say something that pisses them off for them to DISCIPLINE you for it. Stop being part of the problem.
People have been tasered while SITTING in their cars!

resenmbling a gun at gun point..It will be ok. Unless you have a tatoo like this..




(damn...)

Is NOT a "child." Very young, yes, but not some poor sweet innocent rosy-cheeked kid wearing buckled shoes and pushing a hoop with a stick.

13 year old do commit murder, you know.

There was probable cause, and when it comes to being cops, they take no chances. Seattle has a lot of gangs you realize.

NO! By the time he realizes its a cell phone, he would be dead if it was in fact a gun! In situations like this, shit happens fast and theirs hardly anytime to think. The kid got what was coming to him for being a dumbass.

And the kid was so lucky that he ended up in the hospital instead of the morgue.

And obviously with good reason.

Where do you get that he was terrified? He angrily threw his jacket to the ground and refused to comply. When an officer has a gun on you and repeatedly tells you to put your hands up, put your fucking hands up and don't reach for anything.

"agitated", and I think most people would be SCARED by being confronted with police pointing guns at them. And 13 year olds would be even more frightened than most adults.

I think his brain wasn't processing the officer's verbal orders correctly and he took off his jacket and tried to empty his pockets in an effort to show that he was harmless.

I'm sorry but "hands up" doesn't translate into "throw your jacket on the ground". If he was that frozen with fear why did he move at all? He was being defiant and foolish. The other kid had no problem listening.

But at the same time you cannot be reaching for things in your pants or waistband when an officer has a gun on you and tells you to put your hands up. You aren't leaving him much of a choice. Again it goes back to the original point. Do what the officer asks and you will be fine. This didn't have to happen.

"Being defiant and foolish"

You make it sound like he was just sticking his tongue out. Someone whose job involves dealing with people who want to kill him. He asked the suspe, who was out at 3:00 a.m. tagging graffiti (often associated with armed gangs) to cooperate, he refused and he started reaching for something.

"should not translate to death by firing squad."

It was not "death by firing squad." The officer fired in what he thought was self-defense. Real life isn't like the movies where the guy who wants to kill the police officer is some huge guy with ominous music playing in the background. It's usually someone acting oddly who won't cooperate.

And to be perfectly honest, 13 years old is more dangerous than 33. They're not exactly good decision makers, and more likely than older suspects to shoot.

"The article said he was "agitated", and I think most people would be SCARED by being confronted with police pointing guns at them. And 13 year olds would be even more frightened than most adults."

But to the ass-kissing, authoritarian wing here on DU, cops' shit don't stink... and us "civilians" are ALWAYS GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT...

malfunctioned one day. It took me a couple of minutes to get it off before I could call the alarm company with the code to let them know that it was a false alarm.

Just as I hung up the phone from calling in the code to the alarm company, my front door was kicked in and two sheriff's deputies stood their aiming their guns at me.

My first reaction was paniced shock. Instead of my hands goint up (of course, the sensible reaction), they went down. My hands felt like I had huge lead weights tied to them.

Contrary to what some here seem to believe, having a gun pointed at you, regardless of whether or not you are guilty of anything, is a traumatic experience. The sensible reaction isn't something that comes naturally. One first has to over come the adrenaline flight response before one can begin to comply with the nice officer pointing a lethal weapon at you.

Maybe you should start your own thread -- you describe your reaction to the threat so well.

Unfortunately, it's the INEXPERIENCED or innocent person who would most likely have this reaction to facing an armed police officer. Teens or adults who are accustomed to these kind of situations probably have a much calmer reaction.

The relative safety of one's own home....

3AM, running from the cops on the streets of Seattle.

I will bet there are damn few people on this site who have ever been in that situation. I know I haven't.

But I have had cops draw down on me more than once. If they had told me to drop to all fours and bark like a dog I would have complied con mucho gusto.

And with life and death situations in war.

Your reaction can't be compared to that of this kid.

You were in the cocoon-safety of your own home.

Those kids were running from a cop in mean streets at 3AM.

Big, big difference.

is a shock inducing experience.

and did you reach for your waistband for a black object?

And you know what I did? I did what they told me to do. Hands up, kneel down, face first on the ground as instructed. And I didn't even do anything, I stopped home for lunch while working the polls on election day and when I came out to meet my friend the cops were all over me with guns drawn. It turns out the kid who lived behind me shot his girlfriend and gave the police my description. I've had criminals pull and shoot at me before too. I did not comply with their orders, I got the hell out of there. People react differently but it sounds to me like this kid was defiant and not scared.

I had a gun pulled on me I was 12 or 13 and playing tag in a park with friends, this is in a middle class suburb of Chicago in the 90's by the way, and plain clothed officers came up guns drawn. The second time the cops pulled a gun on me was after they found that I had some grass, the put me in cuffs, held a gun to my head, and told me they wanted to do the world a bit of good by killing me. I was 20, I stood up into the gun and yelled "fucking do it, kill me in cold blood, fuck you, what you aint got the balls? do it do it do it. (I was trying to have a quick death to avoid torture). Then the sherrif came up and scolded the cop for having put his gun to my head AFTER I HAD BEEN CUFFED (thank you sheriff. really, thank you, the sheriff followed procedure and I thank him for that.). When I am in the USA my heart races and I panic around cops to this day. I teach my daughter to not trust the police.

it's all true, right down to having the judge apologize to me for the way the cops treated me. When you are 20, already tried suicide twice, and think that the cops in hickville Virginia are going to kill you anyway you can get angry and well if you are suicidal you do not care if they do kill you or not.

As for the playground incident it happend too, we rushed the guys with the guns and only stopped when we saw badges.

12 and 13 year old kids rushed at armed adults pointing guns at them?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH! You have GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME! :rofl:

PANTS ON FIRE!:rofl:

Seriously, what is wrong with you? Do you get off making shit up and spreading it around the internet? You need help!

Edit: This just keeps getting better! You've lived in suburban Chicago, rural Virginia, and now France? Let me guess, you're Myspace page says you're 6'5, have 6 pack abs, dated Cindy Crawford, and make more than 250k a year.
Get a life. :crazy:

what would you do if you thought 2 perverts were there to kidnap you to rape you? my father taught me that kidnappers do not want to kill you before they rape you or such, so we figured they were sickos out to rape us. We rushed because they were so close when we saw the guns (as soon as the guys opened their jackets we saw the guns) that there was no way they would have killed the dozen of us before we got the guns. In my mind, the guys were either going to rape all of us, or injure or kill some of us before we got them, so we rushed them. We would have shanked the fuckers too if we hadn't of seen badges (it was legal to carry knives of certain lenghts).

I also lived in Chicago for a year, in the suburbs of Chicago (Elk Grove Village) for 23 years, I went to Virginia on vacation (which is when I got busted in Craig county) and I have lived in France for the past 4 years. (one year in Paris three years in the Var).

Not everyone cowers in fear when they see a gun, especially folks that were taught how to shoot when they were 5 and especially before we have our own children that depend on us(I would probably be far less reckless in a similar situation today because my daughter depends on me). It also helps that my father taught me to fight back, as he told me the kids did in Vietnam (where he was ordered to kill EVERYONE, kids, babies, women, in villages and then burn them down). He was not at all shocked to see 6 or 8 year olds throwing gernades at him after conducting such missions.

on edit

what is strange about living in multiple places? My wife has lived in Morocco, on Reunion Island, in mainland France, in England, and in the USA, I have a friend who lived in Wales, England, Germany, Italy, and France. a couple of years here, a couple of years there.

First the cops came at you "guns drawn." NOW you and your brave 12 year old buddies rushed at the adults as soon as you saw the guns under the jackets. You should get an award for being the bravest 12 year old in the history of the world. The Chuck Norris of 12 year olds. :eyes:

I think you've been watching "The Goonies" too much. And "West Side Story" apparantly since you were going to "shank" them.

I said this was the first time police pointed their guns at me, I never said guns drawn. one guy managed to draw the other showed a badge 2 seconds later and we all dropped to the ground when they said they were cops, but before we saw the badge our idea was to disram them. shank someone was language we used in high school in the suburbs of Chicago in the 90's.

I never said anything about kung fu. a football tackle, perhaps a slice with a knife, but the idea was to get their guns, unitl of course we found out they were cops and not kidnappers.

And that's AFTER you edited the post to cover your tracks. :eyes: At best you're seriously exaggerating. Most likely, you're flat out lying. And I'm not even going to get into your ridiculous story from Virginia.

Just stop. Please.

These 2 incidents happend to me. The Virginia thing did to. The cop put a gun to my head and told me he wanted to do the world a favor by pulling the trigger. I lost it and yelled at him to do it. Luckily for me the Sheriff was there too and he put me into his car.

In the eighties I worked graveyard shift at a convenience store to pay my way through college. In the two and half years I worked there, I was robbed four time at gun point. In every instance, I put my hands up-- less out of conscious thought and more out of instinct.

I think that for the most part, putting up one's hands is an unconscious physical manifestation of submission, an action that's been part of human culture for so long, I'd be tempted to call it instinct.

for corporations and governments, limiting their reach and power, there are and must be rules that apply to people. Those rules have been around for hundreds of years, in various guises, and their intent is to provide a blueprint for safety and to limit the damage when the rules aren't followed or circumstances alter wildly.

Although adults are expected to be responsible with irresponsibility being the exception, thirteen-year-olds are only sometimes exceptional by being responsible beyond expectations.
There's no way in hell someone under the age of consent should be out at that hour. It's too dangerous for all concerned and any confrontations with law enforcement are naturally going to be keyed up and more likely than normal to end unsatisfactorily.

Sad. Predictable.

  If you're ever stopped by a cop, do what they say. It's not like you're going to win a battle with a cop. Your safest place is in jail, and then in front of a judge, not antagonizing the cop out on the street in the dark.

  A lot of people don't get this because it's anathema to their world view- in every day life nobody's going to demand that you "stop right there" and raise your hands. Even when the police officer has their weapon drawn it still takes time for some folks to realize the gravity of the situation. Even when no drink or drugs are involved.

  Arguing, antagonizing, or doing what you want to do- not what they cop is asking you to do in a situation just antagonizes the officer and dramatically lowers your chances for a favorable outcome.

  And many (but certainly not all) teenagers simply do not have the experience in life to understand what is going on. If they are belligerent to authority figures or simply do not listen to what's being said to them interactions like this can be deadly.

  Cops in my area are trained to shoot twice into center mass. I don't know why this police officer didn't do that- but I'm sure everyone invovled is thankful he (?) is not dead.

  Why do I bother writing this? Because my brother, who is a police officer in a very, very crime-infested part of our country had to shoot a 15 year old who had intentionally decided on suicide by cop. He'd had a fight with his dad, pulled a gun and taken his father hostage and when my brother and his partner arrived pointed the pistol at them. Both, to their credit, still did not fire. But the kid did. 15 years old. He's dead now. Both my brother and the other officer returned fire.

  Just because a lot of us do not have experience with a young teenager pulling a gun doesn't mean that the officer who stops your child for whatever reason, hasn't.

  So teach them their rights, teach them respect (which will affect all the interactions they have), and give them the best set of tools that you can to move through the dangerous situations in life which we are not going to be present to help them.

PB

He was doing everything he could to show he wasn't armed -- throwing off his jacket, pulling his cell phone out of his pocket. He was too panicky to process what the officer was TELLING him to do.

He is only 13! I know kids that age and they're still only about half-way to being able to react like a rational adult in these circumstances.

or maybe he had some chemical help. One guy listened, not shot, one guy yanked a black object and got shot.

Glad he is not dead, but he put himself in that position.

at 3am at gun point. The number of shots is not relevant. He was playing a serious game, running, then yanking anything out was really dumb.

... that would be ok with you? Does "excessive force" have no meaning to you in this scenario?

If so, then I'm glad that police veteran was holding the gun that morning and not you.

makes no difference. They generally shoot until the person is no longer a threat.

However the doofus is lucky to be alive. The two shots could have killed him as dead as a dumped magazine.

with your first sentence. Let the judge sort it out. I was found innocent on drug charges and had the judge apologize to me for the cops actions. You do not have to give the cops permission to search your car, but if they do anyway do not resist. Have your lawyer talk to the judge.

Maybe the cop should have shot the parents! That would have taught them not to let their kid run the streets in the middle of the night!

Because the shooter will say whatever it takes to cover his/her ass.

Terrible story. :(

Just last year at 23rd and Yesler a young cop was killed by a woman speeding through a red light.

I hope this boy is going to be okay.

once, twice, or the entire magazine..Kid is lucky he is not dead.

penalty. Yes, I know the kid is going to survive, but the fact of the matter is that the cop tried to, and failed, to kill him, and for absolutely no reason.

was killed by the police because he couldn't hear their directions. He also tried to show that he had no weapons and was shot for it.

moron yanked an object resembling a gun at 3am, after running, at gun point. Really dumb. Kid was playing a dangerous game and his ticket got punched. Luckily he is not dead, maybe he will realize how stupid he is. I doubt that..

BTW walking up to him and putting a round in his head would be trying to kill him.

You expect him to have a maturity of someone that is twice his age, that's unrealistic. In addition, you seem to be completely ignorant of police procedure, when a gun is pulled, you go for the central mass shot, not anything fancy like shooting the head, leg, etc. that's for the movies, you aim for the central trunk, period. If this cop shot to maim, he's going to possibly lose his job for a whole different reason than just shooting the kid.

not ignorant of the procedure the officer probably hit him in the leg first as he was raising the sidearm to shoot in a hurry, because the officer thought he was about to get shot, and then followed up with a center mass round. Probably took a fraction of a second.

This is pretty common in shootings any police officer or mp will confirm that.

Again this did not happen at disneyland or at school, this happened at 3 am, after a foot chase.

Context explains the actions and the title "lucky moron"

shooting a person with a weapon is by definition deadly force. It is not paint ball. To legally fire a weapon at a person for defense or in police work, death has to be the assumed outcome.

He missed and the kids lucky. Now my question to you, is what if it had been a gun? Due to his miss, the officer could very well be dead.

What if, what if...

The officer sure thought it was. At 3:00 AM, it's hard to determine whether the black object you just yanked out of your waistband, after a foot pursuit, is a phone or a gun. When an officer has you a gun point, don't be yanking things out of your waistband, the results can get ugly.

when and if a shooting is necessary.

It makes me wonder whether the officer genuinely felt threatened. I don't know -- I'm just wondering.

that is how you carry an unholstered sidearm or long gun. When ready to fire you bring the muzzle up and shoot. It is quite common for people, in fear for their lives, to fire the first shot low.

Why fire the gun off early, unless its some type of personal problem. I've held guns JUST LIKE THAT, and just like pictured, you do NOT put your finger on the trigger until you actually SHOOT the gun, not in the process of aiming, if the gun is fired when you aren't in proper position, then it can throw off your aim when you actually DO get it up, that can be a deadly mistake on your part. Not to mention the danger of ricochets, I could just imagine how good a cop would look, firing the first shot and hitting and killing a bystander that is nearby.

and you make an error...At 3am I doubt there were crowds milling about. I am sure you have done quick fire drill and never put a shot low. I mean that never happens.

Again real world and the range are not the same..

Cop is alive, dumbass is alive, end of story.

You aim for anyplace but the central mass of someone, and the chances of MISSING increase exponentially. If what Pavulon said was true, that in the process of pulling his gun, he set it off early, then the cop was an idiot and should be thank his lucky stars he didn't shoot his own balls off.

(except it is dark)

He probably had the weapon on the suspect(s) one complied, the other reached for a block object, setting off this incident.

Speculating, guy could have moved, etc.

I am sure you would have put two in his chest and one in his brain from muscle reflex...

this tells me that you have never fired a gun in this position in your life, unlike what is shown in most movies and video games, a person shot in the chest doesn't just take a step back and fall down later, 9 times out of ten, they are knocked down onto their back, and you would have to be Robocop to actually get off 3 shots and have them all hit.

I am glad you know me so well. Go ask any one who has ever carried a weapon for a job what a 2+1 drill, failure drill, or armor defeat is...

But I am sure you know exactly how people react when shot and are speaking from experience..

make sure the suspect was no longer a danger. I've aimed at and hit the head on targets, and always got my ass reamed for it, at first I was a smartass, what can I say, but I straightened up really quick. Never heard of the "two shots in the chest, one in the head" scenario, I wasn't trained that way. Also, thankfully, I never had to shoot at a live person, I'm fast with words, and never had to pull my gun, of course, I was only trained by the STL Police Department for armed SO training. Most of the time there had to do with gun safety and when it was actually appropriate to pull out and use your weapon.

ncng instructor trained on m9 failure to stop. I cant remember if it was part of qualification or not. Do remember the instruction. 2 center mass and an aimed head shot. I also had the great fortune of never having to aim a weapon in anger.

Callup consisted of weather incidents and former yugoslavia. Both of which were basically support and people were not in any way hostile. Not a shooting war by the time we arrived. Did worry about running over some old russian AT mine.

military. We spent about half a week on just rules of engagement, when it was, and when it wasn't, appropriate to pull or fire a gun. Generally the rules were simple, you must have a reasonable belief that either yourself, or an innocent person were in imminent danger of death from a suspect. We went through a dozen or so different scenarios of suspects with a variety of weapons, from guns to baseball bats to knives, and were drilled on when it was appropriate to pull a weapon and when it wasn't. We were told that we were getting the same training as police officers, more or less, just that we were more restricted, we only had power on the properties we were contracted to protect, the only exception was if we witnessed, personally, a felony in process and have a reasonable belief that someone was in imminent danger. Other rules included stuff like not even being able to stop at a gas station between our posts and going home, and storing our weapons away from ammunition in the vehicle and at home.

I already had a healthy respect for guns, back when I was around 13, I was staying at a friends trailer, and when asleep, sometime in the early morning, we woke up to a loud boom. We woke up, and found a relatively small hole that went clean through the trailer, right through his bedroom, no more than a foot from his bed if you drew a string from one hole to the other. Apparently a neighbor, about 2 trailers up the street, was cleaning his rifle and failed to unload it, it went off and scared the shit out of the neighborhood. The cops came in force and arrested him, thankfully no one was hurt, but it still was able to go through 3 trailers before stopping in a tree. Never seen my friend's mom so scared in my life. So I never violated these restrictions when dealing the the gun I was issued, bought is the proper word, took like 10 bucks from my bi-weekly paycheck, for a few months to pay for it.

I ended up never actually paying fully for the gun, I went for armed SO because of the higher pay, but I then asked for a transfer to a post with unarmed guards, not really by choice, I took a dock in pay mostly because the post I was initially assigned to was too damned far away from home, I had to fill up my car every night, AFTER I got home, secured the gun at home, and then changed out of my uniform and went to the gas station. It was annoying after 2 months, and I ended up getting a refund on the gun, which I turned in, and then went on to go to a different post without the gun, and without the restrictions on stopping on the way to work. One bonus to this was that, when I did go into a quickshop in my uniform, I got free coffee. :)

Here's a weird story from those days, I was driving on a busy main street(Lindbergh, I think), on the way home, it was around 10:30 or so, shift ended at 10, and an older lady actually approached my car while stopped at a stoplight, and said her car was broken down. Being the nice sort, I pulled into the Blockbuster parking lot where she was standing, and then she hopped in my car and said she'd give me a blowjob for 20 bucks. Note, I was in full uniform, badge and all, and frankly I've been mistaken for a police officer at times, though I quickly disabuse people of that notion as soon as possible. Anyways, let's just say I wasn't tempted in the least, I gave her all my pocket change, somewhere close to three dollars, for bus fare, and told her to leave my car. It was the first, and last, thankfully, time, I've ever been solicited by a prostitute, and believe me when I tell you I was fucking shocked.

I knew were police officers or SHP. That was a second job for them. I was around, generally, older and more mature guys. So I can see both sides in these things. I knew those guys, they were not trigger happy and did not want to shoot any one.

They always had good stories.

Regards..

My best buddy, who hooked me up with the job initially, was a Marine(don't ever call him an EX-Marine. :)) who got out because he knees were, more or less, destroyed. He wasn't even thirty and he had severe arthritis in his knees.

I think the question on this thread is whether the Officer in question had a reasonable belief that the kid had a gun, I imagine that the investigation will determine whether his actions were reasonable.

on the streets when you're a cop and face thugs with weapons and little fear of using them against cops.

Funny, how many of same DU'ers would argue against Darwin coming into play here?

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while running through the mall. We had a homeless man beaten to death by "kids" in Washington.

"Kids" know better than to pull something out of their pants when the cop tells him to put his hands up.

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Thank the cop.

-- The idiot at the Kerry lecture.
-- The 14-year-old girl in violation of curfew.
These two clearly did everything in their power to draw the ire of the police, and they succeeded.

-- The student at the UCLA library.
Yet another case of cops using serious force against a young person. In this case, the cops arrested the student for absolutely no reason. However, the student resisted in every way possible against cops famous for acting like pigs. The outcome was predictable.

In all three cases, DU was split down the middle.

And here we go again.

so it is a bit more serious than those scenarios.

Someone needs to give the people a dumbass list. Dont wear wires to an airport, don't reach for your waistband at gun point.

Really, people are getting dumber daily.

... that any force is potentially deadly.

Ya know, authoritarian followers make good concentration camp guards...

Tell, Mr. Persecuted, do you feel that there is a need to have a police force in our society?

Sheer stupidity.

Those policemen...they do the darndest things! And with no cause or provocation whatsoever! It's amazing you and I are all still alive and not mortally wounded!

But seriously, if I were a cop, I'd turn in my badge and change my line of work (if I were young enough)....it's a dangerous, thankless job. You get paid a minimum for putting your life on the line every night. You work under extreme stress and are expected to react perfectly in every dangerous situation. And then if something happens...even before the facts are out, some people on blogs and in the media are ready to hang you before they even find out what happened.

Who needs it? Let the public provide their own protection. Let the critical men of the town start roaming the streets 24/7 with guns and see how long they last, esp. after they start to get criticized for trying to do their jobs.

got to actually shoot a kid...

Way to go, cop...

"I'd turn in my badge and change my line of work" <-- thank goodness for that...we've already got enough hair-trigger cops on the streets as it is...

LOL, they'd never give you a badge. A psychological evaluation is done in most departments.

ready to crucify cops for an injury or death before they even know the facts or the situation. 20-20 hindsight in an easy chair is easy. Being faced with the responsibility of doing a cop's job...not so easy.

That someone doesn't even know all the facts yet speaks volumes about their opinion of law enforcement. Whatever the story...the cops are at fault. I never read posts by these people where they defend law enforcement actions.

I both condemn and defend law enforcement actions, but only after the full story is out.

I'm also glad I waited for the facts to draw a conclusion about those Norcrosse players. Many didn't wait for all the facts. They condemned those guys w/little evidence (and what "evidence" there was, was shady).

DoesSeattle even have one of those draconian cerfew laws? If not why did the kids get stopped? I live in a country where parents get to decide when their kids come home so over here it is nothing big to see teenagers outside to all hours of the night. Were it not for an authoritarian cerfew law the cops would not have stopped the kids in the first place and this incident would not have happened.

Interesting.

Curfew laws here are in place just as much to protect the kids as anything else. At 3 am children belong in bed, not on the streets dodging drug dealers, prostitutes and bullets.

I feel sorry for this kid. Sounds like he got a raw deal all way 'round, starting at home.

Well, we do not have the bullets flying around our cities like in the USA but yeah, if the parents say it is ok kids stay out until 3 am.

Well, maybe sometimes they burn every car parked on the street. But that's different, right?

it is different. When there are riots, which do not even happen once a decade on average, there is some property damage. Burned cars are not bullets killing folks though. In the month of rioting we had last year only 1 person (yes that is one too many) died. All in all though France in much more calm than the USA. I lived in the city of Chicago for a year and I lived in Paris for a year. The levels of violence are not comparable. The difference that you have between our last riots and those that you had in LA a decade ago is that Paris was calm before the riots and calm afterwards. In LA you have daily violence like we have nowhere in France. That is the difference. You could walk around Marseille on any given Friday night and not see cars burning, not hear gunshots and see teenagers out until all hours of the night just hanging out, some drinking (drinking age is 16) some smoking joints and generally not causing trouble.

an armed adult pointing a gun at you, and only stopped when you realized it was a cop.

Also you claim to have lived in the suburbs of Chicago in an earlier post, and now the city in this one. You'll have to excuse me if I don't believe a fucking thing you've said. :eyes:

Are you still 12 years old? Is is past your bed time?

Do yourself a favor and just stop posting.

grown men come up to a dozen kids playing tag and say something like "he boys come over here". You come over and surround them on all sides when they say this and they open their jackets at which point one guy starts to get a gun out. You yell "gun, rush em" and start running (they were perhpas 10 feet away) you are thinking "these pervs are gonna rape us or soemthing" . At the last second they yell police and take out their badges so we stop, they point guns at us more, kick us etc.

Also think for a minute. A suburbanite goes to study at one of the many universities downtown, finds a girfriend there and moves in whith her on the near north side. Not too much to imagine for you now huh?

I have seen and done plenty of crazy shit in my 28 years on this planet. I am unconventional and many people considered (and perhaps still do consider me to be ) white trash.

I would rush some fuck with a boxcutter trying to hijack a plane too. You see if I risk my life, and even die killing the fuck the whole plane load of people will live as well as the folks in the building that would be hit. But hey, I am a teacher, helping others before helping myself is in my nature.

... just drinking and smoking pot. Certainly relieves the adults of that inconvenient responsibility called parenting

Sweet little dears... no problems with juvenile deliquency in France.

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:VWdPmQzWh88J:www.esc-eurocrim.org/files/french_juvenile_justice.doc+juvenile+delinquency+in+France&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=safari

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:2CjhrsU9qLgJ:www.unhabitat.org/downloads/docs/1844_23268_Juvenile_Justice.pdf+juvenile+delinquency+in+France&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=safari

16 is the drinking age here but alcohol use is accepted by most parents of high school students. Hash is accepted by a majority of folks 50 and under. Hanging out drinking and smoking hash is considered normal weekend or summer vacation behavior by many parents over here. The teens do not work why should they only hang out during the day? The idea of a cerfew is only used here during riots and even then it is not popular. Also do not forget that most teens hang out at friends houses and are only seen at 3 am going between houses or back to their own house. Where I live it is 110 in the summer. If my kids want to hang out late I will let them once they are in high school.

Here in France it is pretty much accpted as normal behavior for teens for them to drink, smoke hash, have sex, and hang out with their friends. These are seen as recreational activities by many parents that did just that when they were teens.

Ever notice the consistent proximity of tattoo parlors to bars?

Stupid 13 year old! Doesn't he know that being out past midnight is a shootable offense? Didn't he know that cellphones are weapons and that cops are justified in blowing away any juvenile who doesn't obey their orders instantly?

Mr. Slayer is 100% correct -- this kid deserved to be wiped off the map and he is damn lucky he isn't dead. Next time he will think twice before believing that those in authority have any responsibility whatsoever to the public and, even more importantly, the rights of suspects.

Guns and violence make you a MAN -- I mean look at all the SUPER-MANLY posts in this thread of macho dudes comparing firing positions (they like missionary best, no surprise) and calibers! You can almost feel the throbbing erections at the thought of blowing away some no-good punk kid!

It is our duty as Americans to lick the shiny boots of anyone who manages to obtain a position of authority and to never, ever question their actions. Mr. Slayer, you are a doubleplusgood patriot!

This could have gone down much worse. What I'm wondering is why the kid was going for his phone. I hope that if a cop had a gun pointed at one of my kids the first reaction wouldn't be to text his friends. :eyes:

When in England I see policemen as people who are there to help, pose for photos, keep thing's safe, tell me the time or give directions.
When I see American police I feel fear because I know they can and will kill you if you piss them off. And they will get away with it. The people who defend the cops not matter what are part of the problem. But then what the fuck, the cops defenders don't think there's a problem because they are more than eager to get down on their knees and bark like dogs for the pigs. (See post above). lol.

that the people that post here and never lived in western Europe have no clue how police are supposed to act. In a month of riots, even with teens sometimes throwing molotov cocktails onto the police here in France not a singe shot was fired at the teens. One person died (because someone burned a bus full of people and one person was trapped) but no one died from police shooting them. I was impressed by the restraint of the French police but I am American. The French folks I know seemed to think that the police acted in a normal way.

I also loved what I saw of the bobbies in England. They do not even carry guns. There authority does not come from a gun. I was amazed.

head after he was secured ? Happened right after 7/7

that was one of the new BS special police that have the right to carry guns. The fact that they killed an unarmed person has done wonders to stop the UK police forces from arming all their officers.

A country with an unarmed police force! Gee, that'll really frighten those pesky criminals!

And you know what's even MORE sick? Disarming your citizens! 60 some years ago you fought Hitler, and now you've adapted his gun control policies. Way to go!

of being killed for panicking will be much less.

I think this lad was latino but in the minds of many racist folks whites are less dangerous than the "savage races". When I think of the dozens of times I outran the police because of cerfew laws....on bike shit cops, throw bike over fences, cross yards, shit dogs....hop antoher fence, new street that the cops cant get to without doing about a half mile of road, back of bikes. headlights, hide between the houses. quiet the window is open........gone, run out to the road, hop on bike lets get to vinnies house....Marc fuck you gotta hide us, far out you got 40's and everything cool.....lets go out back and drink.....

Knowing our cops.

You wouldn't believe the paranoia I've witnesed from then when they pull me over for a ticket. I'm a small woman. I don't look theatening.

If I scare them, everyone does.

This thread is ridiculous. The kid was fucking idiot, and I can just picture the way he was behaving (seen many friends do it, idiots).

At 13, me and a bunch of friends were in a park at 3am drinking. Tried to scatter from the cops when they pulled up. Stopped completely with hands in the air when they drew on us and we complied instantly with all directions. Lucky for us, they made us dump the booze and go home. When I worked in retail management I was robbed 3 times at gunpoint. My hands went up instantly, and I complied with the assholes robbing me, even when one was poking my forehead with his gun. I was not in any way tempted to disrobe and throw my clothing on the ground and then pull stuff from my pockets.

The kid was trying prove something, to show he had "balls", and got shot for his stupid macho behavior.

are pretty astounding guys. I can't believe some of you act like hungry sharks just ripping up people who happen to seem 'authoritarian' because of how they view this situation. It's disgusting and I really wish mods would wipe you off the forums because you symbolize just the kind of people we don't need running around. Democrats are considered 'crazy liberals' for a reason, you're perpetuating it. Great job.

This story has two sides no matter how you break it down and just because you take one over the other doesn't make you a bad person.

If you take the side of the kid then you're saying the officer didn't completely do his job, he reacted too fast to a situation, didn't stop to see what the kid was doing maybe? Maybe he was nervous and trigger happy and the kid got the raw deal of that? It's hard for me to defend that stance because I don't see it as valid, but I acknowledge it could be.

The other side is you take the officer's, which I support, and not because I'm authoritarian. Because here's how the events played out from JUST THE ARTICLE. Officer encounters two teens, at 3am, acting strangely. He tried to get their attention and they did not respond, they ran. The officer pursues I suppose, and one teen 1) throws off his jacket, 2) reaches into his pants and withdraws 3) SOMETHING. What is that something? Can you, in that split second of time before the next thing happens, determine what is coming out of this kid's pants at 3am at night on the street after he has thrown his jacket off in what could be seen as an aggressive move? What happens next? He pulls out flowers? A knife? A gun? The article states the officer seemed to target the source of the threat, thus hitting the kid in the leg. A disarm shot is clearly not fatal, hard to do, but not fatal if done right. Even if it wasn't a disarm shot it was a disabling shot. An intentional leg shot will incapacitate a target without killing them so is completely acceptable that kind of situation. He'd rather immobilize the target and find out what was going on in case his life WAS in danger. If it had been a gun he could still be in danger, but given the kid's age the pain was probably enough so that if it had been he would not have been able to return fire. Unlike the movies, that doesn't always happen.

I side with the officer because his actions to me read as a man who saw a potential danger, acted in a way that would not end the life but rather remove the danger so further investigation into what was actually going on could occur. Given the rash of teens with firearms, HIGH POWER fire arms in the news lately, I don't blame this guy one iota.

And frankly, you 'members' who get your hackles up looking for people to ignore because they have dissenting views should probably try probing people's minds a bit more to understand why people see things they way they do. You're acting like the vapid republicans I listen to on the radio every morning. If you haven't, you might listen to a show once or twice and find out how it feels to realize you sound like them.

Thank you:thumbsup: