New suspicion over Kelly death - MP

Source: The Guardian

New evidence surrounding the death of MoD scientist Dr David Kelly has added to suspicions that he was murdered, an MP has claimed.

Liberal Democrat Norman Baker revealed no fingerprints were found on the penknife Dr Kelly apparently used to kill himself.

The information was revealed after a Freedom of Information request to Thames Valley Police who conducted the immediate inquiry into his death.

Dr Kelly, 59, was found dead near his Oxfordshire home in 2003, days after he was named as the source of a hugely controversial BBC story on the Iraq war.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6997401,00.html

---

Hope this isn't too late to qualify as LBN, but I didn't see this here and I think this story needs all the exposure it can get.

Thanks!

Following closely behind TF20 in the 75th Exploitation Task Force was Judy Miller. She had used Chalabi as a single source on information for her fictional WMD stories for the New York Times. http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Secretive_military_unit_sought_to_solve_0105.html
Chalabi was instrumental in transmitting the erroneous claims of an Iraqi defector codenamed “Curveball” about mobile biological weapons laboratories that the administration used as part of its war rationale. http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Alleged_intel_fixer_Chalabi_to_head_0223.html
In her quest to find the infamous WMD, to say Miller rubbed her military companions the wrong way would be a huge understatement. Military officials said she had an “imperious manner” and “nobody could stand her” and that “she’s lucky we didn’t shoot her”. Apparently while embedded with these soldiers, “she wore a uniform” and told them “she had an exclusive deal with the Pentagon”. “Judith was always issuing threats of either going to the New York Times or to the Secretary of Defense” and as a result, “she ended up almost hijacking the mission”. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0923-14.htm

Perhaps a deeper investigation into this “journalist” might uncover whether these claims were based on a real Pentagon deal or if it was just bluster, like many of her WMD stories. It might also reveal just how close she was to another Iraq war critic, British scientist David Kelly. He disputed the validity of mobile weapons laboratories in Iraq, as well as the claim by British intelligence that Iraq could fire chemical and biological weapons within 45 minutes of such an order. Maybe if the Hutton Inquiry, which ruled that Kelly committed suicide July 17, 2003, (coincidentally just three days after Plame’s identity was revealed in Novak’s column) had questioned Miller under oath, we might have a greater understanding why one of the last e-mails he sent on the day of his untimely death was to her, and what Kelly might have meant when he mentioned “many dark actors playing games”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly

http://americanjudas.blogspot.com/2007/03/american-judas-2nd-edition-investigate.html

...in the Vice President's office, His life would not have been worth a plugged nickle.

RIP

did he???

after his family publicly disclosed the emails. (She also wrote his obit news article for the NYT without disclosing her close connections to Kelly--she had used him as a major quoted source in her book "Germs" and corresponded with him frequently--they were friends--and without disclosing his email to her about the "many dark actors playing games").

into Kelly's death. BBC reported on an email from " Judith Millers" without identifying her as the NY Times reporter. It seemed to me at the time that if it were Miller they would certainly have identified her as it would be an important part of the story.

she wrote about Dr. Kelly, also, in her book called Germs.

And her reports in the NYTimes about the threat of WMDs were totally fake... as in, wonder if she was working for Cheney fake. I also wondered about Scooties little "poem" about "remember the aspens" to Judith. If she shows up with a job at the Aspen Institute, with its bipartisan "no child left behind" and U. of Chicago founder.. or maybe that's just where they boinked the first time.

and Dick et al presumably all wanted him out of the way? I think there is more to Judy Miller than meets the eye.

and political corruption with our elections -- and I think this is at the least on BOTH side of the ocean.

The CIA began interferring with Europe and Japan's elections immediately after WWII, keeping liberal governments out and right-wing governments in.

The political violence in America over more than 40 years has to be acknowledged --

Stolen elections have to be acknowledged --

The French have flooded the US with street drugs. Don't even get me started on Germany and Israel and their incursions into our business base. The globalists are the ones trying to meddle in various countries' private business. They're the troublemakers -- and they exist in every country, including this one.

protects and promotes the flow of opium from Afghanistan to be processed into heroin.A lot of that winds up on U.S. streets.So who are the real bad guys? All done in the interests of shoving "democracy" down another countries' throat.What's the attraction? No oil there and Al Quaeda's a myth,must be the dope.Would'nt be the first time the CIA has involved itself in trafficking.

To try to set-up the USA as some kind of uber-boogeyman may be comforting to people who hate us otherwise,
but it's not accurate and it's not fair. This is an international problem. The French, the British, the
Germans and the Japanese all have made covert profit off the triangle trade. The "profit" is comforting
their paranoia about the uber-boogeyman across the water (wherever it may be).

Robert Kennedy --- ????

Malcolm X --- ???

And the long list of victims not even in the American consciousness ---

from Dag Hammarskjold to Adlai Stevenson . . .

From Wellstone to JFK, Jr.....

Show me the foreign parallels to these crimes --- ????

George Bush and his family are internationalists. This is a globalist plot -- always has been, always will be.
The worst phase started with JFK's assassination.

right? !!!

How many assassinations of democratically elected leaders all over the world -- ???

Have you not read about Operation Gladio --

Or Mockingbird ---

Or, Bush organized propaganda -- ???

Granted, the elite cooperate together -- as in, M16 and the French Intelligence re Princess Diana's death . . .

However, our CIA has certainly given leadership to this ---


And, I think we're looking to Halliburton or Blackwater as the handy little fixers on the WTC demoliton . . .

You know . . . royalism, or whatever the elite are effected with, is like capitalism . . .
they work together until they knock one another off, one by one.


If you want to count who has the most "toys" at this point, America is the Superpower . . .
Britian was carried along after WWII --

If you want to say who's moving Israel in a way that profits America .... look to Nixon and now Bushco.

Who's running the UN -- when not trying to totally destroy it -- neo-con US.

NATO --- US?

Who's running the Drug War being used to infiltrate and dominate so many nations -- ? US

I've been reading and writing about this stuff for many years.

The USA is NOT at the top of it at all. In fact, Kennedy's murder represented a coup against our own
government. We were conquered a long, long time ago.

Here's my take on it in clearer words than I could rattle off here:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_melody_c_070713_the_bush_family_and_.htm

So was Allen Dulles and John Foster --
So was Prescott Bush and his father-in-law -- Herbert Walker

Now, that doesn't mean that the elite do not cooperate in their own interests --
Yes, royalty always cooperated - while trying to kill one another.
It's simply the same thing going on.

It's not that these people see themselves as internationalists --
they see themselves as "royalty."

Granted, corrupt intelligence cooperate across nations -- favor for favor
and because many laws prevented wiretapping or torture -- so this got farmed out --

Also granted these elites have organized into organizations/hierarchies thru which they cooperatively control events . . .

Our CIA was responsible in large part for the coup on JFK, acting of course at the bidding of criminals like George Bush . . . but this was also military, it was also the oil industry . . .
and a largely corrupted hunk of government/law enforcement -- and the meeting was in Texas.
Helen Thomas happened to be there . . . and she immediately wrote the list of those who attended that night before the coup.

You can find that info in LBJ's mistresses' tape which is on YouTube . . .
Her name is Madelaine Brown . ..

In fact, I think I have a link to it handy ---

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=1929769365635576415

You will find that the plans and the execution for the JFK coup were home grown . . .
as was the cover-up ---

My people are only the latest inheritors of this nonsense ... it's classic primate politics and Alphas
pack together against their own familial groups sometimes. ALL nations have royalty -- these are the
people who are running the world. The royals have been killing each other forever.

Prescott and the entire Bush clan (and their elitist ilk) were born here, yes, but their loyalties were
elsewhere.

But believe what you like -- if you need to make the US the boogeman, be my guest.

Your reply is confusing ....
and seems to be confirming my points ---

America is the Superpower and has been since the end of WWII --

America has co-opted many other governments; note that Blair was often called "Bush's lap dog."

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if America had totally co-opted the Vatican . . .
Of course, they were responsible for helping the Nazis escape and for getting the gold out of Germany . . . but America was participating, knowledgeable -- and taking in our own Nazis.

But Pope John Paul -- the one before this one -- certainly looked like a CIA Pope ...

And, the Vatican intelligence networks are said to be comparable to the CIA/America intelligence --
and I'm sure the US would have been interested in that power . . . in co-opting it.
By the way, Dulles' nephew -- a priest --- is now moving up in the Vatican . . .

You assert this is solely USA generated and carried-out. My point is it's not. It is a Hydra entity
with a body that takes up Europe and Japan. There is very little evidence this is American-made and
far more that it is conspiracy of a whole lot of dunces, all from their own little corner of the world.

If you read my piece I posted to you, it goes into my theories on that. The US is really only a minor
player. If Americans don't start valuing our own country and what makes it unique, rather than following
the lies of the extremists, we'll never be able to take back our government. It's the only heritage I have.
I value it deeply.

No one says that America acts totally alone --
The assassination of Princess Diana is but one example of British, French and American intelligence spying on Diana and probably covering up the details of her murder, as well.

Also, I explained to you how intelligence works together to overcome domestic laws re
torture, wiretapping.

Shirley . . . corruption is global.
Just as concepts of Royalty were global.
Some of these royal houses linked -- and even yet linked . . . they conspired against one another.
Simply -- it's quite like capitalism. The idea is to kill the competition.

I did read what you posted -- and evidently we have the same concerns . . . corporate-fascism.

From the beginning of our nation -- which is the heritage we have all inherited -- the elite ruled.
Property was divided among the elite -- the wealth of the nation and its natural resources were distributed to the elite. The elite controlled government -- and they understood that eventually democracy would become a severe threat to elitism and it would have to be defeated.

Patriarchy is, of course, global --
Organized patriarchal religions are, of course, global ---
Unregulated capitalism as we practice it here and as pushed upon other nations often with blackmail is not global nor universal -- it is often resisted.

These are concepts which are only worthy of challenge and defeat.

Worldwide Global Warming is recognized more readily as the huge threat it is to humanity and the planet, itself. It is America which is doing the foot dragging; it is America running the effort to stop any progress.

America is the major consumer -- ExxonMobil is still playing "no GW" propaganda game.
British Petroleum and other oil companies have all dropped out of this suicidal mission.

We are the only nation without National Health Care . . . does that tell you anything about the forces upon this country?

Should we have it? Absolutely. We're rich enough to do so without question. But it's a more
complex question with us, given our nation's size and economic load.

As I said, there are ways to project evil onto all images. But the form you're seeing in it is
just your own projection. It may or may not be true. All supposition is subjective.

"Harkening or not" ;)

How loyal to Japan would you think a Japanese political figure was if you learned he had 300 billion dollars in a
joint bank account with the head of a foreign nation?

Bush's father was Hitler's banker. The family sees itself as European ... they're just a US front.

Additionally, I also understand the long time support of Nazi Germany/Hitler ---

If the significance of the presence of these Italians at the meeting is to be understood, beyond the fact that the meeting took place in Rome, it is important to know the dark and twisted history of Michael Ledeen’s connection with Italian intelligence dating back to the 1970’s. Ledeen was allegedly tied to the Italian P2 Masonic Lodge, a violent right wing group that was involved in a number of terrorists attacks in Italy in the 1970s and the 1980s. In the late 1970s, while P2 was doing its dirty work, Ledeen was working as a consultant to Italian intelligence on terrorism issues. http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1261 The involvement of P2 through Operation Gladio in terror attacks was known as the Strategy of Tension. It was a campaign of false-flag terror in the late 1970s, waged by outright fascists who enjoyed the patronage of the CIA, the Mafia and far right elements of the Italian State. These were the Gladio Brigades and Licio Gelli's P2 Lodge, and they intended to discredit the increasingly popular Communist Party, and to ensure it would not take power, by staging terrorist acts in the name of the Left. Their campaign culminated in the Bologna train station bombing of 1980. In an Italian criminal court in 1985, Francesco Pazienza, SISMI agent and P2 member was judged guilty of political manipulation, forgery, and the protection of criminals and terrorists, among other offenses. Indeed, according to the findings of the court, Pazienza falsified information about the Bologna bombing in order to divert attention away from the real (right-wing) terrorists who had staged the attack. From Barbara Honegger's October Surprise: “When the Italian police raided (P2 Lodge founder) Gelli's home in March 1981, it was Michael Ledeen who, at the instigation of Alexander Haig and Henry Kissinger, offered to buy the list of 953 P2 members in an apparent attempt to keep it from becoming public. Henry Kissinger had also reportedly sent Ledeen to Italy to try to squash an investigation into his and Haig's involvement in the founding of P2. On the morning of August 2, 1980, a massive bomb since linked to Gelli...exploded in the waiting room of the central train station in Bologna, killing 81 people and injuring 200 others. General Santovito, the chief of Italy's military intelligence agency, SISMI, who was also reportedly a member of P2, testified in the wake of the bombing that it had been planned by the British-Swiss-American Montecarlo Comite, P2's "sister" organization based in Monaco. When P2 had come under increasing scrutiny in 1979, grandmaster Licio Gelli had reportedly made his base of operations the Montecarlo Comite.... Not surprisingly, reported members of the Montecarlo Comite are Gelli, Henry Kissinger, Alexander Haig and Michael Ledeen.” http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/yellow-cake-and-black-shirts.html

Honegger’s research on the links between influential Americans and false flag terror attacks can be verified from a number of different sources. Aside from our government’s flirtation with perpetrating false flag attacks on Cuba in 1962 through Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Lyman Lemnitzer’s documented proposal Operation Northwoods, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods CIA founder Allen Dulles was one of the key people in instituting Operation Gladio, and most of Gladio’s operations were financed by the CIA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio Declassified secret service papers reveal that Ted Shackley, deputy chief of the CIA station in Rome in the 1970's introduced the notorious Licio Gelli - head of the neo-fascist P2 masonic lodge and for years a fugitive in Argentina - to General Alexander Haig, then Nixon's chief of staff, and later, from 1974 to 79, NATO Supreme Commander. After meetings between Gelli, Italian military brass and CIA men in the embassy, Gladio was given renewed blessing - and more money – by Haig and the then head of the National Security Council, Henry Kissinger. http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/gladio.htm In 1980, Ledeen and Shackley teamed up to provide "war games-type training" for European intelligence services, including Italy's intelligence service. Bologna bombing manipulator Pazienza even testified Ledeen received $120,000 from SISMI. While the CIA took a “dim view” of Ledeen and Shackley freelancing with foreign intelligence services, Ledeen's damage to Jimmy Carter's presidential campaign, in colloboration with Pazienza who was indicted (Ledeen was an unindicted co-conspirator) for extorting, using fraudulent means, a compromising relationship between the President’s brother Billy Carter and Moammar Khaddafi earned the appreciation of Alexander Haig and other prominent Republicans. Ledeen further aggravated the CIA by becoming an unofficial conduit between Haig and General Giuseppe Santovito, head of the Italian Military Service (SISMI). http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Michael_Ledeen Though at least a thousand names are still secret, General Giuseppe Santovito is one of the 900 names that is listed of P2 members found in 1981. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due Not surprising, considering that control of Operation Gladio passed from NATO to SISMI in 1980. http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/gladio.htm

Is this all just titillating history, or is there a link between this activity and the OSP engineered meeting in Rome in December 2001? The possibility of a link is certainly worth exploring in light of the fact that one of the Italians, Nicolo Pollari, is head of the organization (SISMI) last responsible for Operation Gladio, and the other Italian, Antonio Martino, is named on the infamous list of P2 members discovered in 1981. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due An even more intriguing question: is it possible Valerie Plame and her CPD cover company Brewster Jennings & Associates may have been tracking a false flag operation? Perhaps the OSP trying to have WMD planted for political purposes falls within that category. Or perhaps something darker was uncovered, along the lines of something similar to the Bologna train bombings of 1980? It is interesting to note as a prelude to investigating these questions that Ledeen has been emphatic about the December meeting he attended NOT being about Iraq, but Afghanistan and Iran, http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Backchannels_used_to_bypass_U.S._government_0111.html while Ghorbanifar says one of the things he discussed at the meeting was regime change in Iran. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/19/145557/54 It’s interesting because Plame’s focus in WMD proliferation was Iran; the damage sustained by the CIA impaired their ability to adequately monitor nuclear proliferation on the level of efficiency and accuracy it had prior to the White House leak for up to 10 years. http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Outed_CIA_officer_was_working_on_0213.html

http://americanjudas.blogspot.com/2007/03/american-judas-2nd-edition-investigate.html

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-------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to the Hague!

Recommended :kick: #10

Why don't you think others that know don't cross the DOD.
They have been warned!!

Well good morning. Better late than never, I suppose. This story stank to high heaven from the minute it was reported.

Here's hoping more nasty slimy things come to light as we turn over these rocks--FINALLY.

Pictures at 11.

All you have to do is look at their
history. The Queen there and The King
here are both Thugs. You knew it
in your gut when the story first broke.
Just like Alexander Litvinenko. What
does your gut tell you about him?
These people are hero's for standing up
and losing their lives because of it.

He may have been actively uncovering the shipment of heroin via military forces to the Russian mafiya, according to a British ambassador:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1992516&mesg_id=1999342

Phony Drug Wars and Mafia don't exist without corrutpion of police enforcement and protection from government officials ---

In fact, I understand that our own corrupt government forces have had a lot to do with setting up Mafia in Russia ---

It goes gives a bit more refresher as to the unusual circumstances that surrounded the death of Dr. Kelly, etc.



Mr Baker is also suspicious about the cut to Dr Kelly's wrist.

It completely severed a tiny blood vessel called the ulnar artery, which is deep in the wrist and protected by nerves and tendons.

It is highly unlikely anyone without a blood-clotting defect would bleed to death from a single cut to this artery.

It would have required unusual force to cut through the tendons, particularly with a blunt gardening knife, and it would have been very painful.

To ascertain just how unusual the injury was, Mr Baker asked the Office of National Statistics how many people in the UK died in 2003 from a cut to the ulnar artery.

He was told that Dr Kelly was the only one. The scientist was found dead in woodland near his home in Southmoor, Oxfordshire, in July 2003 after becoming trapped at the centre of a vicious war of words between the Government and the BBC.

More at link: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23416610-details/Police+could+not+find+any+fingerprints+on+Dr+Kelly's+'suicide'+knife/article.do

Do they give the person an overdose of some undetectable drug, first--then
stage the body to make it look like a suicide?

That's the only thing I can think of.

Most people, even if forced at gunpoint, would not cut their own wrists or
shoot themselves.

It sounds like they put these people out, keep them alive and then kill them
in ways that make it look like a suicide.

Are there really any words for this? It's evil that has no bounds.

How awful for the victims' loved ones and friends--to think that their beloved
ones killed themselves, when they didn't.

by the victims that they were threatened and perhaps would be killed -- and not to believe a "suicide."

There are many of these events . . .
Depends on whether they think you have some records/files/information they don't want to get out hidden somewhere --- then they'll probably torture you until they get what they want.

Danny Casalaro had his arms sliced up as in torture and he was in a bathtub . . . they called it a suicide.

Witnesses in the coup on JFK died horrible deaths -- many of them!
One was mentioned in the series The Men Who Killed Kennedy -- can't recall his name --
but they went to the CIA to get someone to kill him -- quite openly!
He had taken film of the autopsy of JFK....supposedly shot himself in the temple -
shot on right side -- he was left-handed. And at least one of his hands was mangled.
A friend said he had been expecting to retire and take film with him to make a deal with one of the networks.

You may recall the story of David Kelly, the British scientist and expert in WMD, who committed suicide in July 2003 while being investigated as the possible source for a BBC story that suggested (of all things) that the Blair government had doctored the intelligence about Saddam's WMD programs.

Judith Miller filed a story about Kelly on July 21, 2003:
Scientist Was the 'Bane of Proliferators'. The article painted a sympathetic portrait of Kelly and hinted that he believed Saddam did indeed maintain a WMD program despite the fact that no evidence of it had yet been found. Nothing in the article suggested that Miller had had contact with Kelly, nor that she had ever known him. Her story concluded with this passage:



Dr. Kelly's wife, Jan, said he had been under enormous pressure, but in e-mails sent hours before his death, he gave no hint of that, telling an associate, for instance, that he looked forward to returning to Iraq.


Thanks to news articles written by others we know more about Kelly's e-mails than Judith Miller revealed to readers of The New York Times... and more importantly, we know that Kelly wrote at least one e-mail that Miller failed to write about.

Jamie Macaskill, for example, filed a story in The London Sunday Mail on July 20, 2003 entitled: Dark Actors Playing Games:



SUICIDE scientist Dr David Kelly warned a friend that "dark actors" were working against him just hours before his death.
Dr Kelly revealed his fears shortly before killing himself after being dragged into the row over the Government's justification for war in Iraq.
In an email to American author Judy Miller, sent just before he left his home for the last time, he referred to "many dark actors playing games".
But, according to Miller, Dr Kelly gave no indication he was depressed or planning to take his own life.
He told her he would wait "until the end of the week" before deciding his next move following his traumatic appearance before a House of Commons select committee...

-snip
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/3/17138/30618

From the linked article:

Yesterday, Miller said she believed the "dark forces" Dr Kelly was referring to were in the secret services and Ministry of Defence.

They have already been accused of using Dr Kelly as a "scapegoat" in a bitter row between the Government, whose offensive was led by Tony Blair's spin doctor Alastair Campbell, and the BBC.

Miller, who lives in New York, said: "Based on earlier conversations with Dr Kelly, the words seemed to refer to people within the Ministry of Defence and Britain's intelligence agencies with whom he had often sparred over interpretations of intelligence reports."

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13195970_method=full_siteid=86024_headline=-DARK-ACTORS-PLAYING-GAMES-name_page.html

Funny how you left all that out of your NYT article, Mrs. Turning Aspen!

We listened to the local coverage and I always thought it to be a strange death. It did not make sense that he killed himself from the beginning. Naturally, since we were there when it happened, I have followed news about it since. Thanks for the post.

in Iraq

the cover up and Kelly was killed and may I say very poorly too
almost like a warning to others

MoD: Ministry of Defence

LBN: Latest Breaking News

And what a story. Reminds me of Paul Wellstone's death here, although I didn't read enough at the time to have a strong opinion on whether his death was an 'accident' or not. But this one sounds like there's little doubt whatsoever. Puts a chill in your spine to think of these 'free' countries, with 'freedom of speech', doing these horriffic things.

Martin Scorsese to direct George Harrison documentary

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Martin Scorsese will direct a documentary film on the late Beatles guitarist George Harrison, Harrison's widow and the Oscar-winning filmmaker announced Thursday.

"Harrison's music and his search for spiritual meaning is a story that still resonates today and I'm looking forward to delving deeper," Scorsese said in an e-mailed press release from his publicists Leslee Dart and Tom Piechura.

Work has already begun on the film about Harrison's life and work, Olivia Harrison said in the release. The movie will include interviews and extensive archival materials and is expected to take a few years to make.

"It would have given George great joy to know that Martin Scorsese has agreed to tell his story," Olivia Harrison said.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2007-09-27-scorsese_N.htm

I can't wait to see it!

As far as Wellstone is concerned, I'm pretty sure it was no accident. There's a very good book on the subject titled American Assassination worth checking out.

Thanks!

Kelly was liquidated just as Rudolph Hess was.

For the history buffs: A few years ago, convicted Nazi war criminal and Hitler's personal friend Rudolph Hess was scheduled to be released from Spandau prison. Days before his release, Hess committed "suicide." Hess' family never bought the official story.

Hess's suicide took place during the time that the British were guarding him. Spandau was guarded on a rotating basis by the victorious powers of World War II. Rumour has it that the reason Hess was eliminated was because of fears that he would disclose the reasons why he flew to England early during WWII. Speculation is that Hess was going to meet with some British royals loyal to the Nazi-loving Duke of Windsor. The Duke was supposed to replaced his brother (Queen Elizabeth's father) on the throne after Germany defeated England.

Yeah I remember those threads, and I remember the official koolaide drinkers on those threads who told us to, "move along, nothing to see here," strongly implying that anyone who thought the suicide theory was utter bullshit was one of these :tinfoilhat:.

"official" fairytale.

Kelly's death was just too convenient, and there are too many inconsistencies for it to be crediblly
suicide.

I hope it won't end here, but I'm not optimistic.

the shoulder blades.

Of course.

Part 2.

He was whacked end of story ...

So if he was in touch w/ Judy Miller and Miller was in touch w/ Scooter Libby
and Libby was in touch w/ Cheney and Cheney was selling the need for war
24/7 did Cheney order the hit?

Folks,

Turn off your television and quit watching CSI - with the little information that is being released about the suicide instrument, I have to tell all of you that lack of identifiable fingerprints is meaningless and not uncommon.

For example, if the instrument was bloody, sweaty or a variety of other factors were involved, it is not uncommon for identifiable fingerprints NOT to be found.

--"unidentifiable fingerprints".

Many people wrongly blend the two and often times "no fingerprints" becomes a term used to describe all things, even smudges and the unidentifiable.

It seems there should have been at least a partial print.

It depends on who is making the press release and who is writing it up.

Lack of fingerprints might just mean nothing was identified. And as I stated earlier, not finding a fingerprint, especially an identifiable fingerprint is not unusual.

Especially if the blade is sweaty, rusty, dirty or bloody and the handle is wooden.

There are too many factors involved to just go by a simple newspaper report.

And I'm not stating this man was murdered or it was a suicide, only pointing out that with the available information, screaming Murder! with just this report is incomplete.

Things have been getting pretty weird around here lately. I still believe in the cause but sometimes the paranoa, desire for instant answers, and name calling make DU inhospitable. Thanks HardWorkingDem, for your stallworth appeal to judging slowly. Peace to all.
- galileo

the MOST IMPORTANT issue after Kelly's death is the never-before non-existent coroner's report. The Hutton inquiry has less power than an coroner's inquest... a lower threshold for evidence and had NO TESTIMONY under oath... sort of like Bush and Cheney's 9-11 commission meeting, except Cheney wasn't there with his hand up Hutton's rear end.

here's an intelligent dissent on this issue from a brit with a somewhat posh accent, so you know it must be more valid than anything an american might say... ahem.

this is from the BBC... the program is hokey, but it lays out some of the issues that bother people.

also what about Scott Ritter? Ask Will Pitt about Ritter's views on WMDs before the invasion. Ritter was in Iraq as an inspector too and knew the WMDs the U.S. had sold Saddam had degraded by 2003. what about the Downing Street memo that noted the U.S. was fixing intelligence to match their desire to go to war.... and wanting it to happen near the mid-term election? (you can google and read the Downing Street Memo yourself... the exact thing, not someone telling you about it.)

I don't think everything is a conspiracy, but I would like you to note that John Kerry was called a crazy conspiracy theorist when he called for investigations into Iran-Contra, which, as it turns out, was the attempt by the same assholes who are power now to subvert the constitution of the U.S. and invade small countries in central america and align themselves with death squads that murdered people... nuns... priests.. who dared to speak against them.

these were the same people who supported Argentina when they were throwing live humans out of airplanes into the ocean to "disappear." The same ones who supported Pinochet against Allende... and Pinochet rounded up citizens and put them in the soccer stadium, tortured them and killed them. Pregnant women were held until they had babies and then their babies were given to childless military families and the mothers were put to death. These things have been documented. Chile has many documents and reports online that tell the truth about the Pinochet era. How convenient for him his memory failed him after he was arrested as a war criminal. how ironic that Henry Kissinger, Bush's great adviser, cannot go to, what? five nations without wondering if he, too, would be arrested for war crimes.

if you want to know more about this, start with Robert Parry's Consortium News site. He was nominated for a Pulitzer for his reporting on this issue. Here's a link to some Lost History. The people Ronnie Raygun was calling Freedom Fighters were totalitarian murderers subverting the will of the people of their countries.

so please, if you want to talk about what's weird... reality is pretty weird sometimes.

it's far more naive to think that what you see if what is, or that power is not corrupt, no matter where it is.

the FBI could find none on the rifle . . .
but after Oswald's death and after a funeral home visit to Oswald's dead body . ..
Poof!!! Fingerprints found on the rifle!!!


Again . ..

The Tunheim Panel/JFK 1992 Classified Records Act found that .. .
'OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS
AND PROBABLY ALSO FOR THE FBI'

And . . . John McCone, Dir/CIA memo which tells the Secret Service that Oswald was trained by the CIA and sent to Russia.


We might also contrast the "no fingerprints" with the many cases of planted fingerprints --
and "throwdowns" . . . either drugs or an untraceable weapon found on the dead victim.

Friends say "not suicidal" --
and wife said he had been put under "intolerable pressure."

Very little blood found at the scene.

This is simply another whistleblower who had so much on them that their immediate response was murder. This may be the result of an untraceable injection.

Someone else has also reaised the question of how interested the intelligence forces would have been in Kelly -- probably quite highly interested -- and that they would have been following him and, thus, aware of what had happened.

we all know, it is not unusual not to find identifiable fingerprints on items handled by people. Not unusual at all.

There isn't much either believable about this case for "suicide" . . .

Most of us have understood from the beginning that Dr. Kelly was murdered ---

The questions really are what information he had that would have blown Bush out of the water?

Obviously, Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame and Brewster Jennings were big threats to Bush's lies and PNAC planning for attacking Iraq.

Reactions by the White House criminals were immediate and illegal.

What is UNUSUAL is that evidently Dr. Kelly tried to set a precedent here in killing himself in a way that no other individual has tried before -- !!!!! REALLY?????

The episode was used against the BBC, with Lord Hutton whitewashing the Blair governemnt and Alstair Campbell.
They got rid of a bothersome adversary, a man with a conscience.

See this post from the 'liquid bombs' scare last summer:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1896248

The reason he was killed (or at least one of the reasons), was his knowledge about this document, faked by Campbell and Scarlett, the former head of MI6.

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/files/pdf/iraqdossier.pdf

He was knigthed, while Kelly was tasered, the hard way, and died.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2112587.ece

Cherie Blair later tried to earn money from his death by auctioning a signed copy of the Hutton report.

http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2006/05/cherie-scrapes-barrell-by-signing.html

You may read the Hutton report here:
http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/

Hutton had earlier defended Brit troops after the Bloody Sunday massacre:
http://www.missingpersons-ireland.freepress-freespeech.com/lord%20Huttons%20church.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

"Lord Hutton represented British soldiers at the Widgery Inquiry. It was in April 1972 that the former brigadier Lord Widgery published his now notorious report into the killing of 14 unarmed civil rights demonstrators by British paratroopers in Northern Ireland three months earlier, on what became known as “Bloody Sunday.” Lord Widgery cleared the soldiers of blame, insisting, in defiance of a mass of evidence, that they had only opened fire after coming under attack."

The Brits are not convinced, and I hope they investigate the Blair government and their secret service; a gang of bandits if I ever saw one.

From Daily Mail:
"The 'facts' about David Kelly's death just don't add up. This was murder...
(...)
Now, the highest-profile unexpected death in recent years has re-emerged with redoubled force as something far more sinister and sensational than the story we were originally told.

The apparent suicide of the weapons inspector Dr David Kelly in 2003 triggered a political firestorm, following his unmasking as the source of the BBC's claim that the Government had 'sexed up' the case for war in Iraq."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/dailymail.html?in_article_id=438540&in_page_id=1790&in_author_id=256

As part of the Halloween massacre Rumsfeld and Cheney pushed out CIA director William Colby and replaced him with George H.W. Bush
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11149.htm

The Modus Operandi in the cases of William Colby and Dr David Kelly were similar ( e.g., both men were loose cannons that were at home working on their personal computers when suddenly they're both outside meeting an untimely demise )

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3076634.stm
The Hutton inquiry has heard about a series of e-mails sent by Dr David Kelly shortly before his death - including one warning of "dark actors playing games".

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media."~ William Colby

Welcome to DU!

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Almost like the Kurt Cobain suicide where he puts away his needle kit before he kills himself. God forbid they find drugs on him after he's dead. "What will they say" Just seems like all the other mysterious deaths of scientist in the past years and this just don't make sense. I mean wouldn't you take the sharpest knife and stab your heart if your going to do it right. Or better yet pills.

for years the right has tried to paint the left with a "conspiracy theory" paintbrush......

what about these famous RIGHT WING conspiracies:

iraq has weapons of mass destruction
iran has weapons of mass destruction
dick cheney has a heart
bush has a brain
the democrats want america to become communist


EVERY TIME THE LEFT GETS CLOSE TO THE TRUTH------ OUT COME THE FINGER POINTERS

IN 2008 PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE GOP UNITES FOR ELECTIONS.... AND DIVIDES THE SPOILS
THE DEMOCRATS DIVIDE FOR ELECTIONS.... AND GET NO SPOILS

...now that his party leader has just resigned owing to the Lib Dem's plummeting poll numbers.

were searched, and, four days after that, the entire Brewster-Jennings WMD counter-proliferation network that Plame headed was ADDITIONALLY outed (also by Novak).

This Guardian article says that Kelly was found dead "days after he was named as the source of a hugely controversial BBC story on the Iraq war." But neither the Guardian, nor any other established news organization, has ever mentioned or wondered about the provocative coincidence of dates between the Kelly story and the Plame story. Here's the time-line:

May-June 2003 (Iraq invasion was in March): Kelly (British WMD expert; insider) begins whistleblowing, anonymously, to the BBC, about the "sexed up" pre-war intel; in the same time period as the Scooter Libby/Judith Miller meetings over here.

Late June/first week of July 2003: Kelly is mysteriously outed to his bosses, interrogated at a "safe house" and threatened with the Official Secrets Act.

July 6, 2003: Wilson publishes his article (exposing bogus Niger/Iraq nuke allegation)

July 7, 2003 (the next day): Blair is informed that Kelly "could say some uncomfortable things" (not "HAD said"--COULD say) (Hutton Report); Kelly is nevertheless forced to partially recant before a parliamentary committee; he is outed to the press, and sent home without protection and apparently without surveillance (!).

July 14, 2003: Valerie Plame outed (by Novak).

July 18, 2003: Kelly found dead, under highly suspicious circumstances; his office and computers are searched.

July 22, 2003: Novak ADDITIONALLY outs the entire Brewster-Jennings network--hidden agents and contacts around the world, who worked with the U.S. to stop the proliferation of dangerous weapons--putting all their lives in great danger, and disabling all counter-proliferation projects. Novak NAMED the front company--B/J--making it easier for bad guys in foreign governments to identify anyone who worked with Plame.

-----------

How are the Kelly and Plame stories related? What is the connection? My guess: A Bushite plan to PLANT WMDs in Iraq, after the invasion--to be "found" by the U.S. soldiers who were "hunting" for them (notably accompanied by Judith Miller)--was foiled by someone in the CIA counter-proliferation network, who possibly didn't even know the origin of the weapons movement (that it was a Bushite plot)--and the consequent outings of Plame and Brewster-Jennings, and the murder of Kelly, were efforts to prevent a leak about their diabolical, failed plot to plant the WMDS in Iraq, and to punish whoever foiled their grand scheme. The purpose of the scheme--part #1 of which was the Niger/Iraq nuke forgeries--was to cement Bush and Blair's political power with a justification for the war, and possibly also to trump the CIA, make fools of them, and make them more purge-able, by "finding" the weapons that the CIA said weren't there.

Notable: 1. The full-court press mobilized by the Bush Junta, to out Plame and Brewster-Jennings--contact with at least six reporters in one week, and putting top Bushites at max risk of treason charges. Why all this panic about Wilson's article? Why not just let it drown in the war profiteering corporate news monopoly "river of forgetfulness"? (Answer: They were worried about something ELSE--not just pre-war lies--a matter they could manipulate in the press--but exposure of their scheme to plant the weapons--a far more difficult thing to "spin," if it leaked out from credible sources.) 2. Why all the fuss in England about a rather mild accusation by Kelly--that the pre-war intel was "sexed up"--something everybody in the world knew by then? What did Kelly know IN ADDITION, that could have gotten him killed? (The warning to Blair about what Kelly "COULD say"?). 3. Judith Miller (NYT war propagandist, pusher of the WMD lies, with close ties to the Pentagon and the Neo-cons) was an old friend of Kelly's. She had used him as quoted source in her book "Germs." It was to Miller that Kelly wrote his last email, on the day he died, in which he expressed concern about "the many dark actors playing games." His emails were otherwise upbeat and forward-looking (not suicidal). I suspect that this very curt, and very dark-sounding, email may have been intended by him either as irony (he suspected Miller of outing him to his bosses) or a warning (anyone with any knowledge of the WMD-planting scheme would be at risk).

The Hutton inquiry ignored all sorts of evidence that points to Kelly's murder--his upbeat emails (argue against suicide); his "dark actors" email to Miller (indicating fear); the lack of blood at the scene (paramedics report), and evidence the body was moved; the lack of drugs in his blood (pills spilled nearby but not nearly enough in his system to kill him--very little ingestion); the incredibly poor choices, for a bio-chem scientist, of suicide by wrist-slashing (one wrist, wrong artery) out in the cold and the rain. Hutton went out of his way to OMIT most of this evidence. So it is no surprise that the lack of fingerprints on the knife (yet more evidence of tampering with the scene) was suppressed.

But one of the big things that bothers me is: Where was his surveillance? Kelly was a major threat to the Blair government, just on the known evidence (hounding of him throughout the government, interrogation of him at a "safe house," war on the BBC over his disclosures, etc.) And they didn't have a surveillance team on him, when they sent him home??? That is not believable. And so, where was the surveillance team, as he bled to death all night out in the rain near his home?

Often the biggest clues to government crime is when normal systems don't work (are disabled). A prime example is the NORAD standdown on 9/11 (standard operating procedures not implemented). In this case, if Kelly was a threat to national security--and they certainly behaved as if he was--the British government would be derelict NOT to watch him, after they let him go. And even if their motives were bad ones--to cover up their war lies--they would be nuts NOT to use secret government systems to watch him, track his movements, bug his communications, and log his every move and contact. They had an insider--an eminent authority and highly credible whistleblower--leaking their pre-war lies to the BBC! And they weren't watching him?

So, where WAS his surveillance, as he died? They would not have had to give themselves away--just an anonymous phone call would have saved his life. Hutton never asked this, of course. And no one else is asking it--not any Kelly investigator that I know of. I hope someone does--and I hope Kelly investigators at least have a go at trying to connect the dots to the Plame outings, because there is just too much coincidence in those dates, above.


-----------------------------------------

Throw Diebold, ES&S and all election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' now! --if you want your country back. Cuz that's the problem. They've stopped reform in its tracks. We can't correct the course our country is on without transparent vote counting--the bottom line of democracy.

Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame were suggesting at one point that they were leaving America?
I don't know if they actually did or not?
Evidently, a lot of threats.

Can we presume from what you're saying about the attempts to "plant WMD" that Valerie Plame would
have had dealings of some kind with Kelly? Or was he just intuiting?

I recall at the time of the invasion that there were strong rumors that they had tried to plant WMD but failed -- it was evidently quite noisy. As I recall it, they sent in something like 75-100 guys and one guy got out . . ??? There was a second attempt, less noisy -- also failed.
There was always speculation about whether they would try again.

As for surveillance on Kelly . . . I doubt they would have made the phone call.
If he was silenced, probably sat well with them. ????

...on David Kelly's "suicide":

the youtube link is in the next post. :)

and took it upon myself to learn something about the case.

Too freaky by far... :scared:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8ybWaIvmaM&NR=1

Fantastic stuff.



Love this line: don't walk the plank like I did... you will be dispensed with.

:P

They shut this guy up like the tried to on Randi