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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 09:36 PM
Original message
State science curriculum director resigns (for appearance of bias against intelligent design)
Source: Austin American-Statesman

The state's director of science curriculum has resigned after being accused of creating the appearance of bias against teaching intelligent design. Chris Comer, who has been the Texas Education Agency's director of science curriculum for more than nine years, offered her resignation this month.

In documents obtained Wednesday through the Texas Public Information Act, agency officials said they recommended firing Comer for repeated acts of misconduct and insubordination. But Comer said she thinks political concerns about the teaching of creationism in schools were behind what she describes as a forced resignation. Agency officials declined to comment, saying it was a personnel issue.

Comer was put on 30 days paid administrative leave shortly after she forwarded an e-mail in late October announcing a presentation being given by Barbara Forrest, author of "Inside Creationism's Trojan Horse," a book that says creationist politics are behind the movement to get intelligent design theory taught in public schools. Forrest was also a key witness in the Kitzmiller v. Dover case concerning the introduction of intelligent design in a Pennsylvania school district. Comer sent the e-mail to several individuals and a few online communities, saying, "FYI."

Agency officials cited the e-mail in a memo recommending her termination. They said forwarding the e-mail not only violated a directive for her not to communicate in writing or otherwise with anyone outside the agency regarding an upcoming science curriculum review, "it directly conflicts with her responsibilities as the Director of Science."

Read more: http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/11/29/1129science.html



Can we give Texas back to Mexico?
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. both TX and FL are going batshit insane for ID
Superb. Nothing like teaching mythology instead of science...no wonder the US is no longer the leader in scientific advances.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. The new science standards proposed for Florida are excellent.
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 12:34 PM by IMModerate
There is no mention of ID in the new science standards. It's all about evolution. Remains to be seen whether they'll get through intact. But it's looking good so far.

On edit: some examples:

Benchmark SC.912.L.2.1: Explain how evolution is demonstrated by the fossil record, extinction, comparative anatomy, comparative embryology, biogeography, molecular biology (crosscuts with earth/space), and observed evolutionary change.

Benchmark SC.912.L.2.2: Discuss the use of molecular clocks to estimate how long ago various groups of organisms diverged evolutionarily from one another.

Benchmark SC.912.L.2.7: Express scientific explanations of the origin of life on Earth.

Benchmark SC.912.L.2.9: Identify basic trends in hominid evolution from early ancestors six million years ago to modern humans.

Benchmark SC.912.L.2.10: Discuss specific fossils hominids and what they show about human evolution.


--IMM
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Kikosexy2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. Our children...
need to be prepared for the arrival of the Anti-Christ...oops, he's already alive and well and in the White House...
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
58. That's not the worst of it.
A newly minted teacher, I was hired to teach science at an intermediate level in a 'suburb' of Houston. (BTW, it took three class periods to acquaint my students with the concept of self-respect so that we could focus on learning science. After they got the merit of self-respect--apparently, something no one had addressed before--these young people had no problem focusing on science!) We started with the Periodic Table. Imagine my dismay when the veteran teacher assigned to 'mentor' me (this turned out to be a ruse) complained that the new text "assumed" she had taught her students concepts that she hadn't known to teach them. I asked her to tell me the concept, so that I wouldn't get caught unprepared for the upcoming lesson plan. The concept she hadn't known to teach her eighth grade students was the atomic number! I made the mistake of joking with her that my seventh grade students were now ahead of hers, having learned the relevance of atomic numbers when we covered the Periodic Table the week before. I now suspect she encouraged her principal to lie about hiring me so that he could interview a veteran teacher whose resume had crossed his desk after my hire date. Long story short, I walked because they wouldn't confirm my position and the relevant pay I HAD to earn, and the new veteran teacher lasted only two weeks--having observed to one of our peers that the students are 'unmanageable.' Imagine how those students must feel, two months into their semester and no science teacher--and no one seems to care.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
76. Not just ID
Both these states evince some sort of collective pathology that goes well beyond the anti-science movement.

Think about it. Whenever some bizarre story is posted on LBN or GD, what the odss it's from Texas or Florida?

Better than even, I daresay- with a sizable remainder being left to Ohio.
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mahatmakanejeeves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Doing your job as Director of Science = conflict of interest.
Thus, "you're fired."

Don't get too close to the edge of the Earth. You might fall off.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Fantasy will NEVER overule REALITY.....it is only a temp thing...
TRUTH, REASON, LOGIC, SANITY, COMMON SENSE, etc

always prevail in the end....
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
61. I wish I could believe you
I really really do.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
63. I know...its Depressing out there...too many peeps mired is moot minutiae shit
canardly talk about anything cept the ball game and weather....stuck on nuts and bolts while ignoring the Big Picture...but the shift is slowing coming into community who tire of fanatical crap....many get ripped off from their Leaders like Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard, Roberts.,etc
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. Seriously! That's totally fucked up!
What's next? Will biology teachers be fired for refusing to teach that storks bring babies? x(
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
46. It is NOT storks. Sheesh. you think it would be clear by now.
That's the baby jesus walking the little person into the womb, and keeping it company until birth. Whereupon the girl babies pledge their vaginas to their earthly daddy until daddy says its ok to give it to someone else.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #46
65. Ah, you see, I must have taken one of those inferior science
classes. I need to be reeducated. :P
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. not to worry. I'm SURE Team Bush is working on fixing your bad
ejukashun as we speak.
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DRoseDARs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. OH NOES!!1 A "Director of Science" having an appearance of bias against bullshit!


*sigh*
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. lolz
:)
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DRoseDARs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Saint Gasoline has the PERFECT picture for this subject...
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. fucking awesome
:thumbsup:
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Now that is a bumper sticker I would love to have
:applause: :applause: :applause:
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Hong Kong Cavalier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
28. um.....
:spray:
:rofl:
:applause:







I'm saving that image.
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. keeper!

Thanks for that! :thumbsup:
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
45. THAT is a true work of art. nt
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
57. Perfect!
You nailed it.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
59. Absolutely dead perfect!!!
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roughandtumble Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Shouldn't the Texas Director of nut-job cults of been fired instead?
The US of A is becoming an Idiotocracy.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. Inherit the windbags
I can't stand this shit
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BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. Shouldn't ID be left to private/religious schools? n/t
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
29. It ought to be left, period n/t
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Indoctrinating any child in any religious belief ought to be illegal (nt)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. Exactly . . . kids have no defense against this religious brainwashing....
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 01:02 PM by defendandprotect
they should STOP indoctrinating kids into religious beliefs until they are at least 18 ---

And, I'm not sure that's late enough given the extent of the myth making ---

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
48. No. ID should be left in the garbage.
right next to the creationist museum.

Did they replace the male model yet, given his other job was being a gay callboy?
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BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wouldn't NCLB be harder to fulfill with ID in public schools?
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 10:34 PM by BadgerKid
Just seems inconsistent to me. The kids might get confused or something.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. You assume that NCLB is about actual learning.
It's not, its about teaching compliance.

-Hoot
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. I support bias in favor of actual science...
rather than insane bullshit that fundies pull out of their asses in order to force their narrow-minded views on everyone else.
'Intelligent design' my proud Irish ass.
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hmm.. Science guy biased agains ID.. that makes no sense to me :/
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. She'd do better to sue.
This is bullshit.
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
16. Same people who decry teaching of evolution are bemoaning losing tech jobs to overseas professionals
It's a simple equation. If you are a willful DUMBASS, then prepare to suffer the economic consequences for your stupidity.

I have NO sympathy for Xtian idiots. If anything, maybe their behavior will become so maladaptive that it is "selected out" of existence.

Rapture yourselves...ALREADY! Begone.

J
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
53. Excellent insight!
I have often said this same thing myself. Evolution will eventually win this argument because it cannot possibly lose. Ultimately the failure to adapt will exact its toll. It may not happen quickly, but it will happen. Stupidity will succumb to intellect. Natural selection is the engine of evolution. Thanks for a great post! :thumbsup:

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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. It would appear to me that she got "googled" by her coworker at the Most
Serene Xian Repubic of Texas to me.

She should have held out for firing outright. "Suspended? Do I get to pick when it starts or had you rather?"

One wonders exactly who a state director's bosses are to suspend her?

Governor Good Hair? John Hagee's Megachurch, bait, tan and tackle shop?
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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. Conservative "Devolution"
Shirt (and bumper sticker) showing Republican marching the wrong way on the issue of evolution:

http://www.cafepress.com/tulsatees/1695236

:rofl:
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. "Are we not men?"
"We are Devo."


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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
19. In relation to Darwin's theory of natural selection, I wouldn't object to mentioning ID,
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 10:41 AM by Ghost Dog
(clearly and carefuly distinguished from creationism) in passing, in a classroom, as an alternative theory that may or may not be testable.

I would use the opportunity to expound somewhat upon the History and Philosophy of Science - pointing out the importance of keeping an open mind, of theory and hypothesis-formation, empirical (and not-so empirical) experimental methodology, paradigm-shifts, etc.

Scientists should never claim to have found any kind of "definitive answer", merely "sufficient explanations".

I understand, for example, that an ID kind of way of thinking need be no impairment to practising the highest levels of pure mathematics and physics, cosmology etc.

Perhaps some kind of critical analytical discussion of what is called theology may also be in order

For some open-minded thoughts on ID curricula, google came up with, eg. this: http://www.leaderu.com/offices/dembski/docs/bd-whatwhen.html

Now, as for the right-wing political, creationist nut-job angle to all this: it's certainly very observable and something to be taken into account - but not by banning freedom of thought and experiment, surely.

edit Oh, and I would certainly take the opportunity to introduce Gaia theory (see eg. http://www.altruists.org/static/files/Gaia%20Theory%20%28science%29%20-%20Wikipedia.htm )
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Sabriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Neither would I...in a social science or current events class.
But not in a science class. One talks about SCIENCE in science class.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. Yes indeed. From a Social Sciences perspective. n/t
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. How is ID distinguished from creationism?
Same thing. You should watch the NOVA special on the Dover, PA ID trial. There's no meaningful distinction between ID and creationism.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
66. Yeah, so I begin to see.
Unfortunately (or, better, for no doubt economic and technical reasons), my semi-broadband connexion is, uh, at best shall we call it extremely intermittent today.

This looks like interesting, very relevant material (from a social-psycho scientist's perspective), as far as I have been able to see, so far.

Give me time.

As always, I feel very grateful for the (so-fiercely defended) right of freedom of thought and expression in the USA that allows us to even begin to discuss such subjects.

And that's another big reason why I love DU (I'm a European).
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
73. That program was outstanding. Very interesting and VERY
informative -- puts the fundies right where they belong. ID is a cover for creationism, and they have actual documents that provide evidence of the language change.
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leftist_not_liberal Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #73
87. The wedge document
FIVE YEAR STRATEGIC PLAN SUMMARY

The social consequences of materialism have been devastating. As symptoms, those consequences are certainly worth treating. However, we are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism. This is precisely our strategy. If we view the predominant materialistic science as a giant tree, our strategy is intended to function as a "wedge" that, while relatively small, can split the trunk when applied at its weakest points. The very beginning of this strategy, the "thin edge of the wedge," was Phillip ]ohnson's critique of Darwinism begun in 1991 in Darwinism on Trial, and continued in Reason in the Balance and Defeatng Darwinism by Opening Minds. Michael Behe's highly successful Darwin's Black Box followed Johnson's work. We are building on this momentum, broadening the wedge with a positive scientific alternative to materialistic scientific theories, which has come to be called the theory of intelligent design (ID). Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.

The Wedge strategy can be divided into three distinct but interdependent phases, which are roughly but not strictly chronological. We believe that, with adequate support, we can accomplish many of the objectives of Phases I and II in the next five years (1999-2003), and begin Phase III (See "Goals/ Five Year Objectives/Activities").

Phase I: Research, Writing and Publication

Phase II: Publicity and Opinion-making

Phase III: Cultural Confrontation and Renewal
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/wedge.html

If anything, we labor under far too little materialism...

What is Historical Materialism?

Historical Materialism is the application of Marxist science to historical development. The fundamental proposition of historical materialism can be summed up in a sentence: "it is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but, on the contrary, their social existence that determines their consciousness." (Marx, in the Preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy.)

Extract from the Preface of A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy

by Marx

In the social production of their life, men enter into definite relations that are indispensable and independent of their will, relations of production which correspond to a definite stage of development of their material productive forces. The sum total of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which rises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness.

The mode of production of material life conditions the social, political and intellectual life process in general. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness.

At a certain stage of their development, the material productive forces of society come in conflict with the existing relations of production, or - what is but a legal expression for the same thing - with the property relations within which they have been at work hitherto. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters.

Then begins an epoch of social revolution. With the change of the economic foundation the entire immense superstructure is more or less rapidly transformed. In considering such transformations a distinction should always be made between the material transformation of the economic conditions of production, which can be determined with the precision of natural science, and the legal, political, religious, aesthetic or philosophic - in short, ideological forms in which men become conscious of this conflict and fight it out. Just as our opinion of an individual is not based on what he thinks of himself, so can we not judge of such a period of transformation by its own consciousness; on the contrary, this consciousness must be explained rather from the contradictions of material life, from the existing conflict between the social productive forces and the relations of production.

No social order ever perishes before all the productive forces for which there is room in it have developed; and new, higher relations of production never appear before the material conditions of their existence have matured in the womb of the old society itself. Therefore mankind always sets itself only such tasks as it can solve; since, looking at the matter more closely, it will always be found that the tasks itself arises only when the material conditions of its solution already exist or are at least in the process of formation�. The bourgeois relations of production are the last antagonistic form of the social process of production - antagonistic not in the sense of individual antagonisms, but of one arising form the social conditions of life of the individuals; at the same time the productive forces developing in the womb of bourgeois society create the material conditions for the solution of that antagonism. This social formation brings, therefore, the prehistory of society to a close.


From Karl Marx

by Frederick Engels, 1877

Of the many important discoveries through which Marx has inscribed his name in the annals of science, we can here dwell on only two.

The first is the revolution brought about by him in the whole conception of world history. The whole previous view of history was based on conception that the ultimate causes of all historical changes are to be looked for in the changing ideas of human beings, and that of all historical changes political changes are the most important and dominate the whole of history. But the question was not asked as to whence the ideas come into men's minds and what the driving causes of the political changes are. Only upon the newer school of French, and partly also of English, historians have forced the conviction that, since the Middle Ages at least, the driving force in European history was the struggle of the developing bourgeoisie with the fuedal aristocracy for social and political domination.

Now Marx has proved that the whole of previous history is a history of class struggles, that in all the manifold and complicated political struggles the only thing at issue has been the social and political rule of social classes, the maintenance of domination by older classes and the conquest of domination by newly arising classes. To what, however, do these classes owe their origin and their continued existence? They owe it to the particular material, physically sensible conditions in which society at a given period produces and exchanges its means of sustenance.

The fuedal rule of the Middle Ages rested on a self-sufficient economy of small peasant communities, which themselves produced almost all their requirements, in which there is almost no exchange and which received from the arms bearing nobility protection from without and national or at least political cohesion. When the towns arose and with them separate handicraft industry and trade intercourse, at first internal and later international, the urban bourgeoisie developed, and already during the Middle Ages achieved, in struggle with the nobility, its inclusion in the feudal order as likewise a privileged estate.

But with the discovery of the extra-European world, from the middle of the 15th century onwards, this bourgeoisie acquired a far more extensive sphere of trade and therewith a new spur for its industry; in the most important branches handicrafts were supplemented by manufacture, now on a factory scale, and this again was supplanted by large scale industry, possible owing to the discoveries of the previous century, especially that of the steam engine. Large scale industry, in its turn, reacted on trade by driving out the old manual labour in backward countries, and creating the present day new means of communication: steam engines, railways, electric telegraphy, in the more developed ones.

Thus the bourgeoisie came more and more to combine social wealth and social power in its hands, while it still for a long period remained excluded from political power, which was in the hands of the nobility and the monarchy supported by the nobility. But at a certain stage - in France since the Great Revolution - it also conquered political power, and now in turn became the ruling class over the proletariat and small peasants.

From this point of view all the historical phenomenon are explicable in simplest possible way - with sufficient knowledge of the particular economic condition of society (which it is true is totally lacking in our professional historians), and in the same way the conceptions and ideas of each historical period are most simply to be explained from the economic conditions of life and from the social and political relations of the period, which are in turn determined by these economic conditions. History was for the first time placed on its real basis; the palpable but previously totally overlooked fact that men must first of all eat, drink, have shelter and clothing, therefore must work , before they can fight for domination, pursue politics, religion, philosophy, etc. - this palpable fact at last came into its historical rights.

This new conception of history, however, was of supreme significance for the socialist outlook. It showed that all previous history moved in class antagonisms and class struggles, that there have always existed ruling and ruled, exploiting and exploited classes, and that the great majority of mankind has always been condemned to arduous labour and little enjoyment. Why is this? Simply because in all earlier stages of development of mankind production was so little developed that the historical development could proceed only in this antagonistic form, that historical progress as all whole was assigned to the activity of a small privileged minority, while the great mass remained condemned to producing by their labour their own meagre means of subsistence and also the increasingly rich means of the privileged. But the same investigation of history, which in this way provides a natural and reasonable explanation of the previous class rule, otherwise only explicable from the wickednesses of man, also leads to the realization that, in consequence of the so tremendously increased productive forces of the present time, even the last pretext has vanished for a division of mankind into rulers and ruled, exploiters and exploited, at least in the most advanced countries. That the ruling big bourgeoisie has fulfilled its historic mission, that it is no longer capable of the leadership of society and has even become a hindrance to the development of production, as the trade crisis, and especially the last great collapse, and the depressed condition of industry in all countries have proved. That historical leadership has passed to the proletariat, a class which, owing to its whole position in society, can only free itself by abolishing altogether all class rule, all servitude and all exploitation. And that the social productive forces, which have outgrown the control of the bourgeoisie, are only waiting for the associated proletariat to take possession of them in order to bring about a state of things in which every member of society will be enabled to participate not only in production but also in the distribution and administration of social wealth, and which so increases the social productive forces and their yield by planned operation of the whole of production that satisfaction of all reasonable needs will be assured to everyone in an ever-increasing measure.


From Engels' Letter to J. Bloch

London, September 21, 1890

According to the materialist conception of history, the ultimately determining element in history is the production and reproduction of real life. Other than this neither Marx nor I have ever asserted. Hence if somebody twists this into saying that the economic element is the only determining one, he transforms that proposition into a meaningless, abstract, senseless phrase. The economic situation is the basis, but the various elements of the superstructure - political forms of the class struggle and its results, to wit: constitutions established by the victorious class after a successful battle, etc., juridical forms, and even the reflexes of all these actual struggles in the brains of the participants, political, juristic, philosophical theories, religious views and their further development into systems of dogmas - also exercise their influence upon the course of the historical struggles and in many cases preponderate in determining their form. There is an interaction of all these elements in which, amid all the endless host of accidents (that is, of things and events whose inner interconnection is so remote or so impossible of proof that we can regard it as non-existent, as negligible), the economic movement finally asserts itself as necessary. Otherwise the application of the theory to any period of history would be easier than the solution of a simple equation of the first degree.

We make our history ourselves, but, in the first place, under very definite assumptions and conditions. Among these the economic ones are ultimately decisive. But the political ones, etc., and indeed even the traditions which haunt human minds also play a part, although not the decisive one. The Prussian state also arose and developed from historical, ultimately economic, causes. But it could scarcely be maintained without pedantry that among the many small states of North Germany, Brandenburg was specifically determined by economic necessity to become the great power embodying the economic, linguistic and, after the Reformation, also the religious difference between North and South, and not by other elements as well (above all by its entanglement with Poland, owing to the possession of Prussia, and hence with international political relations - which were indeed also decisive in the formation of the Austrian dynastic power). Without making oneself ridiculous it would be a difficult thing to explain in terms of economics the existence of every small state in Germany, past and present, or the origin of the High German consonant permutations, which widened the geographic partition wall formed by the mountains from the Sudetic range to the Taunus to form a regular fissure across all Germany.

In the second place, however, history is made in such a way that the final result always arises from conflicts between many individual wills, of which each in turn has been made what it is by a host of particular conditions of life. Thus there are innumerable intersecting force, an infinite series of parallelograms of forces which give rise to one resultant - the historical event. This may again itself be viewed as the product of a power which works as a whole unconsciously and without volition. For what each individual wills is obstructed by everyone else, and what emerges is something that no one willed. Thus history has proceeded hitherto in the manner of a natural process and is essentially subject to the same laws of motion. But from the fact that the wills of individuals - each of whom desires what he is impelled to by his physical constitution and external, in the last resort economic, circumstances (either his own personal circumstances or those of society in general) - do not attain what they want, but are merged into an aggregate mean, a common resultant, it must not be concluded that they are equal to zero. On the contrary, each contributes to the resultant and is to this extent included in it.

I would furthermore ask you to study this theory from its original sources and not at second-hand; it is really much easier. Marx hardly wrote anything in which it did not play a part. But especially The Eigteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte is a most excellent example of its application. There are also many allusion to it in Capital. Then may I also direct you to my writings: Herr Eugen Duhring's Revolution in Science and Ludwig Feuerbach and the End of Classical German Philosophy, in which I have given the most detailed account of historical material which, as far as I know, exists.

Marx and I are ourselves partly to blame for the fact that the younger people sometimes lay more stress on the economic side than is due to it. We had to emphasise the main principle vis-�-vis our adversaries, who denied it, and we had not always the time, the place or the opportunity to give their due to the other elements involved in the interaction. But when it came to presenting a section of history, that is, to making a practical application, it was a different matter and there no error was permissible. Unfortunately, however, it happens only too often that people think they have fully understood a new theory and can apply it without more ado from the moment they have assimilated its main principles, and even those not always correctly. And I cannot exempt many of the more recent "Marxists" from this reproach, for the most amazing rubbish has been produced in this quarter, too....

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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
82. Fuck it. This material is unplayable under Vista
I aver, neither in Quicktime (downloaded and installed latest update) nor in that bastard's "Windows Media" (idem) itself.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I had no problem playing it.
For what that's worth.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. ID cannot be distinguished from creationism,
because that is exactly what it addresses. The very premise of Intelligent Design, is that the universe was created by some sort of 'intelligence' (for which there is no evidence). The name itself implies it.

Darwinian theory has never attempted to explain creation, only what has happened afterward, based on the available evidence.

The material in your article offers nothing more than comfort to those who feel a need to believe in gods.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. It's not an issue I've looked into much until now. I felt 'comforted', though
reading an explanation such as:

"First off, intelligent design is not a form of anti-evolutionism. Intelligent design does not, as Eugenie Scott falsely asserts, claim that living things came together suddenly in their present form through the efforts of a supernatural creator. Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation. A doctrine of creation presupposes not only a designer that in some manner is responsible for organizing the structure of the universe and its various parts, but also a creator who is the source of being of the universe. A doctrine of creation thus invariably entails metaphysical and theological claims about a creator and the creation. Intelligent design, on the other hand, merely concerns itself with features of natural objects that reliably signal the action of an intelligence, whatever that intelligence might be."

However, it does observably appear to be the case, especially in certain parts of the USA, that ID theory is being used (and perhaps, in part was developed) as a Trojan Horse for Creationism.

And that is, indeed, a serious educational problem, imho.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Intelligent design is simply another word for creationism
The judge in Kitzmiller v. Dover said so and that is why it was thrown out. ID promoters are religious nuts. It does not belong in school. It is not rational, not testable, and not science. It is RELIGION. Your quote up there is completely false.
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moggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. You're quoting Dembski?
:rofl:
FYI, Dembski is a lying weasel. Not a good source if you're looking for honesty on the subject.
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
64. Oh I get it! Intelligent design is splunge!
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MetaTrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Could ID also be applied to the idea of extraterrestrial seeding?
You know, like we're a food herd for aliens? I guess they don't like brain meat.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
69. I'm willing to run with this for a bit and see where it takes me
>For some open-minded thoughts on ID curricula, google came up with, eg. this: http://www.leaderu.com/offices/dembski/docs/bd-whatwhen...

If you separate intelligent design from creationism, you get into some interesting territory.

(Full disclosure: I'm a foe of the religious right so don't start in on me. First check out website below. I hate biology and refused to take in high school. Hence, I know next to nothing about evolution. Also, I'm sticking to deductive logic. Inductive logic is outside scope.)

The main problem I have with creationism starts in Genesis with "in the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth". The problem with this statement is that it has an omniscient viewpoint with no observer. In the beginning you have God. Then you have the heavens and the earth. Who's this other dude, the one doing all the talking? If it's God writing about God, that's silly and recursive. If it's not, we've got a problem. I call this quandry "there's no place to put the goalposts".

Let's take this football analogy a little further. Let's pretend you're watching football on a security camera. You know nothing about electronics or technology. There's only one camera and it cannot swivel far enough to see the goalposts. There's no captions, no scorecard. There's no sound. That's the business rules. The universe as we know it consists of a field with some lines and numbers on it, people running around in three kinds of uniforms (two teams + referrees), a ball, whistle and flags. That's it. Get over it.

As you watch the game, you begin to see various patterns. There's various rituals such as the lineup and snap, play stops when the ball touches the ground. Occasionally players run-off screen and play stops but they make it back somehow or other. You can tell something good happens when one side starts jumping up and down. Eventually you are able to construct a working model of how the game works. There are various data structures. By statistical analysis you work out the scoring system. However...

WITHIN THIS CONTEXT it is ridiculous to have a discussion of what occurs off-field. There IS no off-field. It is ridiculous to talk about goalposts. There are no visible goal-posts. There's no place to put them (I'm thinking the type of goalposts IRL that are plonked into the ground behind the goal line and lean forward onto the field). It's ridiculous to talk knowledeably about anything else that's outside the boundaries of the field. You can't. There's no tools. Good luck using football rules to describe the workings of a television camera.

We are extremely limited in what we actually know about the world. We can sense certain things but are reliant upon our brain and operating system to construct our virtuality reality. We don't even "see" in three dimensions. We see two 2-dimensional pictures and our brain cobbles them up into three dimensions. We somewhat perceive time passing, but are heavily reliant upon timepieces. We cannot revisit the past. Quantum mechanics theorizes other dimensions which we cannot access. We cannot even perceive air - only its effects. We're in the same boat as the fellow watching the football game. We cannot talk about before "in the beginning" because the only toolset we have is the four dimensions that hadn't been invented yet.

Hence we are reliant upon the tools of deductive and inductive logic to attempt to determine the past.

But before we delve into logic, we have to define our terms. What the layman thinks of as "evolution" actually covers a lot of ground.

Holy crap there's been a hostage taking at the Clinton headquarters. I'll finish this later.



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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. First thought, TrogL
(I haven't finished reading your thoughts, yet):

Sometimes, as an algorithm, recursion, in context, often works very effectively in the field of computer science. But one needs to be very careful about programming the "escape clause". Otherwise unintended consequences may ensue.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. That's kind of the point
Outside of computers, recursion is rare in real life and usually ends up being a tail-chaser in the form of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sort of like "God created God" or "God watched God watching God....".
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Yes, Ugh,
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 05:58 PM by Ghost Dog
(Beware that the link below may cause your browser, or even your operating system (as in my case just now), to (temporally) crash.

1. The Way
The Way that can be experienced is not true;
The world that can be constructed is not true.
The Way manifests all that happens and may happen;
The world represents all that exists and may exist.

To experience without intention is to sense the world;
To experience with intention is to anticipate the world.
These two experiences are indistinguishable;
Their construction differs but their effect is the same.

Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world.
|

/...

http://www.chinapage.com/gnl.html

edit: just one translation...
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #69
80. where we left off
But before we delve into logic, we have to define our terms. What the layman thinks of as "evolution" actually covers a lot of ground. However,...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

In biology, evolution is the change in the inherited traits of a population from one generation to the next.

...

In the 1930s, Darwinian natural selection was combined with Mendelian inheritance to form the modern evolutionary synthesis, in which the connection between the units of evolution (genes) and the mechanism of evolution (natural selection) was made. This powerful explanatory and predictive theory has become the central organizing principle of modern biology, providing a unifying explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.

...

A common misconception is that evolution is "progressive," but natural selection has no long-term goal and does not necessarily produce greater complexity. Although complex species have evolved, this occurs as a side effect of the overall number of organisms increasing, and simple forms of life remain more common. For example, the overwhelming majority of species are microscopic prokaryotes, which form about half the world's biomass despite their small size, and constitute the vast majority of Earth's biodiversity. Simple organisms therefore remain the dominant form of life on Earth, and complex life appears more diverse only because it is more noticeable.

...

The origin of life is a necessary precursor for biological evolution, but understanding that evolution occurred once organisms appeared and investigating how this happens, does not depend on understanding exactly how life began. The current scientific consensus is that the complex biochemistry that makes up life came from simpler chemical reactions, but it is unclear how this occurred. Not much is certain about the earliest developments in life, the structure of the first living things, or the identity and nature of any last universal common ancestor or ancestral gene pool. Consequently, there is no scientific consensus on how life began, but proposals include self-replicating molecules such as RNA, and the assembly of simple cells.



And there you have it. Discussion of the origin of life is outside the scope of the argument of evolution. My priest says, "I believe God created the heavens and the earth and all things in and on it. The methodology he used was evolution".

So where do these structures come from? Creationists say "from God", evolutionists proclaim it out of scope. It looks like the "Creative Intelligence" crowd are attempting to find a middle ground to put their goal posts. If they keep their word, they may be able to make a valuable contribution.

Here's what I'm talking about.

In the novel 'Stand on Zanzibar' by John Brunner, there are problems in an African country. There exists an Artificially Intelligent supercomputer that everybody relies upon for problem solving and it's stumped. It is not until a known wacko/genius begins asking questions that the specific issue behind the supercomputer's glitch is discovered - it's missing a key piece of information. The solution - proceed as if this information does in fact exist (ironically, it was genetic information).

That's where I believe Intelligent Design can come into play - as long as you don't overplay your hand, which is what the Creationists are doing.

If you study Carl Jung's works, you soon come upon his concepts of synchronicity, archetypes and collective unconscious. They make certain progress in explaining some phenomena that escape traditional explanations of causality. While he does make an attempt to explain how they work (in conjunction with the physicist Pauli) by invoking portions of theories of quantum mechanics extant at the time, he's the first to admit it's pure conjecture. What's actually important is the existence of the concepts.

I believe Intelligent Design occupies the same conceptual space. I posit an archetypal design of some sort from which is drawn the basic structures of biology, implemented by evolution. I don't give a shit how they got there - that's outside scope.

My daughter lives near a shopping mall. To get there, she has to cross a massive schoolyard used jointly by three schools; elementary, middle and high. She crosses three playing fields, each with their own goalposts, on which games are played with their own set of rules (eg. football, soccer). To push the football analogy over the cliff, we have creation somewhere off the edge of the field. We get a little teeny field for the elementary school where the basic rules of ball play are taught - the archetypes, then we move on to a proper soccer field where the middle school kids play the game using the skills taught on the baby field, then onto the high school field, avoiding the football game in progress, where she gets ogled by the guy with the camera, but he doesn't know where she came from or where she's going or what she's doing there.

Hence, we have creation (where the Creationists hang out, the rest proclaim it out of scope), the formation of the archetypes (Intelligent Design and the collective unconscious occupy the same space), then evolution calling upon the archetypal structures, then today's reality. As long as everybody stays within their goalposts, everything works. It's when the religious crowd tries to cheat that the trouble starts.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
77. ID is creationism in disguise
Its the same goddamned thing being crammed down our kids throats by bible thumping ignorant assholes bent on driving civilization back to the stone ages.

Please please please do not give this mystical crap any credence. It is fucking gibberish
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
85. Oooo, sorry, no.
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 08:06 PM by Bornaginhooligan
I.D. is Creationism.

Kitzmiller vs. Dover.

Look it up.
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Sabriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
21. I like the most recent reply in the "Comments" section
From "Dr. Jesus":

"Thanks, TEA … even Florida is laughing at us now."
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
25. I'm pretty sure Mexico wouldn't want it back in its current condition.
Too many Texans.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
27. Wouldn't this be a good time to pull out the FSM argument?
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
62. ?
What's the FSM argument?
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. FSM = Flying Spaghetti Monster nt
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. OK thanx n/t
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. As I pointed out in the Texas forum
My cousin is a science teacher & this stuff has taken her from a straight Republican ticket voter to a mixed (but predominantly Democratic) voter. :evilgrin: Keep up the good work, guys! There's more science teachers out there waking up! :rofl:

dg
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
34. Of course there SHOULD be a bias against intelligent design
it's childish and uneducated horseshit.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
36. The only thing the US is first in anymore......
is consumption and idiocy.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
40. 'Bias against teaching intelligent design...'
So a Director of Science can't promote science?

OK.

I'm sorry for the kids brought up under this system; they'll have a hard time later on, competing for jobs and university places with those who've been taught science properly.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
41. We should be biased against ID- IT IS NOT SCIENCE!
And anyone who thinks it is does not belong in education. This person should get a promotion, not be fired!
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Teaching science in a science class,
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 12:51 PM by windoe
and religion in a religion class--what is wrong with this picture? If you are in fact SECURE in your faith you will not be so threatened to hear other points of view. Sadly most religious fanatics are taught that to READ or LISTEN to other (heathen) points of view is dangerous and evil. Some books are banned reading material.
Back to Brainwashing 101; fear and isolationism trumps rational and creative thinking. Great St. Gasoline icon above, I am going to save that!!
(general reply)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. When you're beliefs aren't supportable, you have to have high walls of
protection against anyone finding that out ---

thus closed religous communities ---
fear of written material and fear of "hearing" anything subversive ---


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Sam Ervin jret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
43. Of course there's a "bias against ID in science classes and books. Just like there is a bias for it
in the BIBLE. Where it belongs. Don't these people understand the definition of FAITH? They should, they're reputed to be working in the field.

But then again with what Bush and Company have done to the Language and their propensity for changing the definitions of words (torture, liberal, conservative, patriot) to suit their purpose it is with little wonder that even their own worker drones can't keep the new Bush & co lingo straight.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
50. Give it all back except Austin. :) I would be fine with that.
asshole perry and is fucking dopes are behind this total bullshit. he's such a narrow eyed moron it's really hard to fathom.

I once heard someone who worked in the capital say, "comparing perry to bush* is like comparing a moron to a genius". Kind of speaks volumes.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
51. Bookmarking ...
Hubby will want to see this!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
55. Unfortunately, these religious fanatics have done more harm than to our schools --
on the overall political front, they have been used by the GOP to keep sexist, racist, homophobic
policies blazing ---

In reading Prof. Mark Crispin Miller who has written a number of books on Bush and GOP propaganda --he also points to religious fanatics, suggesting they may be likely volunteers for political dirty tricks.

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9119495 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
56. Congratulations to her! She gets to leave Texas. She will get another
job and I bet it is far better than her current one.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
60. Ignorance is rampant!!!! This is not merely frustrating..it is scary as hell!!
:scared:
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rexcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
84. It is more like stupidity...
Ignorance implies that one has not been introduced to a subject; stupidity means one has been introduced to a subject but one just ignores the facts and logic of the situation.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
67. The sad state of Red State schooling.
What makes blue states blue is the fact that their residents realize that shelling out a little bit more in property taxes means your kids will be able to do things like basic math.

Unfortunately AZ is very anti-property tax, and as a result has some of the worst schools in the nation. It really shows, if you talk to people from here.

I imagine Texas is the same way.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
70. for telling the TRUTH ???!!!
what madness.
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Dudley_DUright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
75. PLEASE tell me this is an article in the Daily Onion,
otherwise as a science teacher I am about ready to abandon all hope. :cry:
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
78. I'm glad I re-upped with the Texas Freedom Network...
From the article in the OP:

Kathy Miller, president of the Texas Freedom Network, an advocacy group that monitors state textbook content, said the group wants to know more about the case. The network has raised questions about past comments made by State Board of Education Chairman Don McLeroy about teaching creationism.

"It's important to know whether politics and ideology are standing in the way of Texas kids getting a 21st century science education," Miller said. "We've already seen a faction of the State Board of Education try to politicize and censor what our schoolchildren learn. It would be even more alarming if the same thing is now happening inside TEA itself."


www.tfn.org/

The TFN does more than monitor state textbook content. Their mission: "The Texas Freedom Network advances a mainstream agenda of religious freedom and individual liberties to counter the religious right."

From the TFN's coverage of our new State Board of Education Chairman:

At one point during the lecture, McLeroy clearly tied “intelligent design” – a religious-based concept billed by supporters as an alternative to the scientific theory of evolution – to Biblical creationism:

“Why is ‘intelligent design’ the big tent? Because we’re all lined up against the fact that naturalism, that nature is all there is. Whether you’re a progressive creationist, recent creationist, young earth, old earth, it’s all in the tent of ‘intelligent design.’”


www.tfn.org/pressroom/display.php?item_id=5964









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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
86. IT'S. NOT. SCIENCE.
How the fuck can this happen in a sane country like-

Oh, yeah. I forgot. Lots of idiots here think Intelligent "Creationism in a cheap tuxedo" Design is something OTHER than unsupported, PROVEN WRONG REPEATEDLY BY ACTUAL EVIDENCE mythological bullshit with no basis in reality.

This country is so, so fucked with idiocy like this running rampant.

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leftist_not_liberal Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
88. Quick note to TEA
http://www.tea.state.tx.us/tea/contact.html

On behalf of Chris Comer, whom I am sure is far too professional to say it, I would like to offer your powers that be a hearty FUCK YOU for pushing your politicized religious bullshit in science curricula.

You make me ashamed to be a Texan even as I am very proud to have actually learned some things from my science educators who were practicing their craft years before the "Wedge document" came in to existence as you KKKristian Krazies plot to dumb down the nation at a time where we need scientific acumen more than ever.
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