City panel votes to nix Boy Scouts-connected front group

Source: PageOneQ

A commission in the nation's second-largest city is forcing its fire department to drop part of its cadet program administered by a group it says is a front for the Boy Scouts of America to skirt anti-discrimination policy.

The programs in question were developed by Learning for Life, an affiliate of the Boy Scouts, and adopted by the Los Angeles Fire Department.

Read more: http://pageoneq.com/news/2008/lfl_050708.html

The scouts are a disgusting operation that uses "traditional values" to indoctrinate young people into a reactionary, pro-hate mentality.

It's a shame they've been able to build up such a good reputation through the years while turning out little fascists.

Luckily, they're generally banned from recruiting at inter-troop events.

they are REALLY odd


:evilgrin:

how many are sponsored by the LDS Church? How many by the Methodists, Baptists, Lutherns, Presbyterians, Are these troops fronts for their religious organzation. Or maybe the folks in these religious organizations feel that time spent working with the boys is time well invested.

I was a Cub Den leader, a Cubmaster, and an Assistant Scoutmaster for years, and we NEVER taught "reactionary, pro-hate" ANYTHING. We went on nature hikes, did leatherworking, remodeled two homes for the poor, built modern dog runs for a county animal facility when the county couldn't afford to, installed sprinkler systems and refurbished parks in ghetto areas that the city declined to refurbish (which recently led to those residents suing the city), planted HUNDREDS of trees for riparian habitat restoration...the list goes on, and on, and on, and on.

Yes, as a BISEXUAL man I disagree VEHEMENTLY with the BSA's official policy on gays, but I can assure you that at the local level, at least here in California, we largely made it a policy to IGNORE them. I'm no longer affiliated with them myself, but my son is still a Scout and I have no qualms with that. While not perfect, these boys learn a great deal in the program, and more importantly do great things for their communities.

For those who aren't aware, the Boy Scouts are primarily a Scout run organization at the local level. The boys pick the activities, the boys organize the supplies, the boys do the fundraising, the boys do the recruiting, and the boys drive participation. The adults are only there to help when they ask, to act as counselors when they need it, and to keep them from getting into trouble. Anyone who thinks it's just a bunch of adults standing around indoctrinating kids is just displaying their ignorance of how the BSA actually operates.

I'll keep your screed in mind. Thank you.

Close-minded, are we?

This isn't GD: P and there's no reason to start a post out with "Oh Bullshit".

So you're free to think I'm close-minded if you like. I just didn't see the need for that degree of harshness.

I apologize if you found my comment overly harsh, but I found your comment to be an attack on myself. When you accuse the scout leadership of indoctrinating kids into a "reactionary, pro-hate mentality", you're pretty bluntly stating that adult scout leaders are all fascists of some sort. As a person who has dedicated YEARS to helping kids through the scouting programs, and who has always made it a personal point to teach the kids mutual respect for each other, for society, and for nature, I can't help but being insulted by your tone and accusation. I have never taught kids to be reactionary. Or hateful. Or bigoted. I have only once, in seven years of affiliation, ever seen another leader do that, and he was a new leader who was booted from the organization less than a week later. The adult leaders in a Cub pack or a Scout troop are almost universally the parents of kids involved in those groups, and parents simply don't put up with that kind of behavior.

The #1 goal of scouting is to get kids active and to help them have fun. If you look up its history, that's why it was created in the first place. Beyond that, its goals are to help the boys mature into leaders by inspiring self-confidence, and to help their communities in whatever ways the local scouting groups can identify.

It's a shame that a few obstinate leaders at the national level have so tarnished the reputation of the organization over this discrimination issue, but you have to understand that the national leadership has little or NO influence at the local level. Local scouting organizations are run by the parents, and they reflect whatever values those parents bring into those groups. Local scouting organizations also receive NO funding from the national leadership. When you see a Boy Scout troop hiking down a trail or picking up trash in a park, every bit of the organization you can see, from the trash bags to the backpacks and uniforms, was paid for by the scouts themselves either directly or through fundraisers and donors. They aren't supporting bigotry, they aren't being funded by bigotry, and they certainly aren't promoting bigotry.

Most people involved with the Scouts that I have met have no ulterior motives other than to do something worthwhile and fun with their kids. Let's not forget that the main people in charge are the parents of the kids, there's no sinister figures standing around waiting for their chance to indoctrinate

... that I was a Cub Scout and Boy Scout for years. I was Senior Patrol Leader for two troops, one in the city of Chicago and one in the 'burbs.

The BSA is a very locally run thing and I never, ever ran into anyone higher than the local council level. Nobody in my troops, or the adults every tried once to indoctrinate anybody into anything concerning religion, sexual preferences or any other type of 'ism'

Granted I did run into a few Scout Masters who where jerks, one was even abusive (to his own son in the troop), but none of this pro-hate stuff ever came up. That particular Scout Master was kicked out of Scouting and lost visitation rights to his son. Clearly his problems were on the personal level. On the other hand, the balance of the adults I met were very fair and cool individuals that I felt comfortable with. The scouts were scouts, that is to say, kids. They acted like kids their age and that was it.

The BSA is just like other group, they've got assholes and angels amongst them. And everything is local, even the council leaders (which is something like county leaders for those who don't know) had little to no influence in how a troop is run. All they seemed to be able to do is revoke a Troop's charter and dissolve it if things got out of hand. Which I, personally, never saw happen.

Something like that...

;-)

I'm an eagle scout. My dad's an eagle scout. My grandfather is an eagle scout. I was not indoctinated with anything. I'm not a little facist either, thank you very much.

The Scouts don't indoctrinate. They provide for an opportunity for kids to enjoy and respect the outdoors (a good thing). They provide opportunities to learn fairly valuable life skills (a good thing). And they're active in local charities/community service (also a good thing). As a progressive, I'm not in favor of the discriminatory policies that the organization touts. Nor am I particularly fond of their religious message. But I'm all in favor of allowing my son to be a part of it, considering what I've gotten out of it. And if he comes to me one day and tells me that the Scouts are telling him that gay people are bad (which they never did when I was young) or that we're all going to hell if we don't like Jesus (also never happened), I'll say to him "They're full of shit...have fun with your buddies at the campfire."

I know that I don't appreciate your generalization, or your broad brush painting of this organizations members. It's not fair. And quite frankly, it's downright false.

As a gay man who made it to the Life level in Boy Scouts, I am saddened that it has to come to decisions like this based on the ignorance of local, district, and/or national leaders of the the BSA.

I started in scouting just after I finished first grade when I joined the Wolves, then moved on up the chain to Bears, Webelos. Then as a freshman I started in the Boy Scouts, moved on to Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, and then Life.

During my senior year in high school, it all came crashing down as I was outed by someone in my school, and thus began my downward agonizing spiral in the BSA. I had devoted my entire life, time, monies, everything to the BSA, and just because I happen to be gay (which I was just learning to understand in my VERY small home town), I was kicked out of the BSA by the national council. This decesion happened AFTER my district, and local councils had already approved me to become an Eagle Scout.

Even though I was just coming out of the closet at the time, the National Council "decided" in all of their "wisdom" to say that I was not worthy of becoming an Eagle Scout because I am queer. I appealed twice, and both times I was denied as "my lifestyle choice was non conducive to the teachings of the BSA".

As I stated earlier, it is very sad to think of how many more of my fellow gay brothers have been denied their right to become an Eagle Scout. I honestly hope that the BSA National Council will eventually reverse its policy. Unfortunately, even being in my mid thirties, I do not see this happening in my lifetime. As a result, we will continue to see more and more articles such as this. Additionally, although it appears like it is the BSA that is suffering, in all reality, it is kids like myself. We are the ones that gladly did our civic duties, we earned our merit badges, and we came to love the BSA as our second family. But because we are queer, we are not worthy to be called Eagle Scouts.

People in this country who believe discrimination is wrong should simply not support any group that discriminates and should simply not support any group that supports groups that discriminate.

How many stop and think about that before they write a check or sign an employer pledge card to United Way?

I won't even buy Girl Scout cookies because it is still the same "morality" at work - little boys and little girls being just exactly what "Christian" morality dictates them to be.

I look at the moral abyss this country has found itself in and realize the main reason are those very "Christian" moral values.

I'm openly bi, a fact which was known to both my sons pack/troop and the local council, and nobody cared. I've also participated in quite a few boards of review, and sexuality was never brought up (even with one boy whom we were all quite sure was gay). How did your case make it to the national level?

Sadly, I don't think that the national prohibition will be broken until the national BSA can be divorced of its affiliations with the LDS church. While many churches are affiliated with the BSA, only the Mormons voice strong objections to gay scouts in the organization. The Mormons, of course, are the ones who so famously associated homosexuality with rape and murder in one of their publications a few years ago. Nationally, LDS scouts are about 15% of the membership, but account for over 20% of its funding. The LDS leadership has stated that it will leave the BSA, taking all 400,000 of their member scouts with them, the moment the BSA either willfully or is forced to open its ranks to gays. The LDS church even has the infrastructure in place already to start its own scouting program should that happen.

Since the LDS control much of the National Executive Board, that probably isn't going to happen any time soon. That's a shame, because while the financial loss would hurt the organization, it would be better off in the long run.

Still, I expect that it will happen in our lifetimes. Resistance to LDS domination of the scouting program (and the mockery they're making of the awards...like granting Eagle awards for VACUUMING A CHURCH) will eventually erode their stranglehold on the organization. I just hope that actions like this one in L.A. don't kill it off first.

However, it just happened that the girl I had shared with at school was the grand-daughter of an LDS elder. He was the one who forced the escalation to the national review board, AND pressed for action in my local small town and regional larger newspapers. It was a very nasty year for my family and myself as numerous Church of Christ churches in my hometown turned it into a witch hunt, with the eventual solution of me moving out of town as soon as a I graduated high school, and that I moved "expeditiously as possible on to college in another city" and "take my evil ways with me". I know of people that say, "Gosh I would love to relive my junior or senior year of high school". For me, I would rather take two guns to both sides of my head first.

Which just reaffirms my opinion of that particular religion. It has done more to harm the image of scouting, and the lives of scouts, than anything else.

Bigotry sucks, no matter who the bigot is though. I guess I'm just lucky to live in a somewhat more liberal area.

Recently, I attended what was supposed to be an Eagle Scout project presentation but was actually a persecution and witch hunt for the unfortunate Eagle Scout candidate. I could not believe the hostility, disrespect and scorn the committee members showed this boy and his family. Although the boy had met all the criteria for Eagle listed on the website as posted by the national organization, these people claimed that there were "troop requirements", that although the boy had been in this troop for 7 years (longer than the committee members)--only the last year counted for Eagle (he was involved in 2 sports and was not able to attend many functions in his senior year of high school--something very common). They claimed he didn't have sufficient "scout spirit" (whatever the hell that means), although he had earned 32 merit badges and attended Sabattis every year.

The fact it took him a long time to find a project and planned and executed it in 2 weeks rankled them. One female committee member speculated that his project bordered on the skill of a 5 year old in that it included creating art work (painting), children of the community and an exhibit as requested by PEACE INC. -- how can this be good enough for an Eagle Scout project? (Note, the previous boy had planted some trees-- digging holes apparently is a higher skill than teaching disadvantaged youth the techniques of perspective and light/shading). They did not even acknowledge the people that came in support for the boy, brusquely ignored them (the boy's coach, representatives form PEACE INC, family friends-- who came to vouch for his character). I had never seen adults behave so badly in my life and I would never recommend a child to become involved with that troop. The "committee" are a bunch of nasty cliquish social climbers acting as a gate to keep people out instead of as helping hands to the boys. After seeing this and how the local council would not act because this is a large group (which brings in money for the council), it is my estimation that the organization in my community lacks integrity, fairness, courage and justice. It has been made known to me from members of other troops that this large group continually embarrass themselves at Sabattis and lose as many as they gain in membership every year and I have seen them also ban children as well as adult volunteers who do not kowtow and "play along" with their agenda. I won't ever support boy scouts in my community again.

will appeal his local board and request that the District Board, his right too, examine his project. Or he can go to the Council Level for appeal and to the National level also....

As an Eagle Scout since 1973, who's brother is also an Eagle Scout since 1978, as the father of an Eagle Scout since 2005 and my youngest son is two Merit Badges and his Eagle Project away from his Eagle I take offense to many of these posting. I've been involved in Boy Scouting since 1970 and have never seen fascists tendencies/indoctrination that BSA is accused of. I've been involved in Scout Troops in the NC and Texas, in Germany and Korea and never been pressured to force a young man to follow a set doctrine. I, as others have posted here, do have issues with the religious aspects of BSA and their homophobic stance. I also am not in favor of women being Scoutmasters, flame away! I have served as a Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmaster, committee member and am currently the Eagle Scout Coordinator for two troops.

Scouting is a great place for young men to learn values, trust, honor, dignity, self-confidence, tolerance of others and to have safe fun in a non-threatening environment and learn to be comfortable and good stewards of our natural resources. I learned leadership and outdoor skills that I still use as a senior military officer in Boy Scouting. Boy Scouting was very influential to me. I give back to it every chance I get. Mostly I enjoy mentoring young men and helping them become successful leaders in their communities, it's about being a good role model for our young men.

of my friend's family and the invited guests (ie conduct of the troop and it's committee) I don't believe the Scouts are indoctrinating the boys, I object to a troop and it's committee kicking people out they don't agree with.

I also don't agree with the policy on homosexuality. It is none of their business what the sexual orientation of their volunteers are and should not color their perception on their leadership ability.

I know my father worked very hard to keep those council members who acted like this from determining the fate of young boys who worked very hard to get where they were. Funny, the people on the "board of honor" were rarely Eagle Scouts themselves.

I try to have the board stacked with Eagle. Maybe that's hypocritical, don't know or care. They are men who have tread where the young man has recently been and understand how it can impact the life of a young Scout. Every Eagle Board I conduct I also have somebody on the board that is not involved in BSA at all, but who understands the hard work and dedication a young man has out into tgetting to the point where he appears before an Eagle Board.

One of my troops had two boys last night earn their Eagles. Both really good young men, well deserving of the Eagle.

It's more than just "doing your time", you know? A person has to be proactive, dedicated, willing to make some sacrifices, and for better or worse, a little tough skinned (when you're a high schooler doing boy scouts it gets a bit rough at times). The program itself has a way of weeding out those that wouldnt' otherwise receive the award anyway, simply because it's so hard to do it. I don't know a single person that I grew up with that received their Eagle award (astonishingly, there were 9 of us in one grade), that didn't deserve it. Each and every one of them is a fine young man and not a single one of them is an indoctrinated facists. ALthough I'm not sure about Keith...I haven't seen him in a while. Lol.