Iraqis: Marines Try to Convert Muslims

Source: military.com / Knight Ridder

Iraqis: Marines Try to Convert Muslims
May 29, 2008
Knight Ridder

FALLUJAH, Iraq - At the western entrance to the Iraqi city of Fallujah on May 27, Muamar Anad handed his residence badge to the U.S. Marines guarding the city. They checked to be sure that he was a city resident, and when they were done, Anad said, a Marine slipped a coin out of his pocket and put it in his hand.

Out of fear, he accepted it, Anad said. When he was inside the city, the college student said, he looked at one side of the coin. "Where will you spend eternity?" it asked.

He flipped it over, and on the other side it read, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16."

"They are trying to convert us to Christianity," said Anad, a Sunni Muslim like most residents of this city in Anbar province. At home, he told his story, and his relatives echoed their disapproval: They'd been given the coins, too, he said.

Read more: http://www.military.com/news/article/iraqis-marines-try-to-convert-muslims.html

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Rest of article at: http://www.military.com/news/article/iraqis-marines-try-to-convert-muslims.html

enemies that want to call this a crusade.

There are times and ways to evangelize. Not this time. Not in this way. This endangers fellow soldiers and the people they're trying to reach out to. Not good. Not smart.

Duke

the sheeple ......




Key provincial elections split Sunni Arabs in Iraq

BAGHDAD - Plans for provincial elections in Iraq by the fall have already set Sunni Arabs against each other as factions prepare to compete for control of the local governments that will wield considerable power over security and finances.

The elections will choose governing councils in Iraq's 18 provinces and are seen as a key step in repairing the country's sectarian rifts, particularly by opening the door for greater Sunni Arab political representation.

Many Sunnis boycotted the last provincial balloting in January 2005, enabling Shiites and Kurds to win a disproportionate share of power — even in areas with a substantial Sunni population.

This time, more Sunnis are expected to participate, and U.S. and Iraqi officials hope the elections will result in greater Sunni representation and provide a more accurate gauge of the popularity of political parties.


The vote, which is supposed to be held by Oct. 1, could also shift the balance of power in the Sunni provinces. Traditional Sunni parties, especially the Iraqi Islamic Party, face tough competition from the "awakening councils" ....
snip


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_sunni_politics_2;_ylt=Anexd3Nt8CZWqqDHKKi79Z1X6GMA

They need more reasons to hate us.

I have absolutely no doubt that, with the Talibangelicals in control of the US military, this has been going on for years. It is only now that it is being reported.

This has just been a modern day version of the crusades all over again.

Huh? Whoda thunkit.
:shrug:

Of course we could include the Teutonic, Ottoman, Novgorodian, etc crusades...all of which pretty much failed miserably in the long run...although southern Spain is mostly Christian now and the Cathars are pretty much dead and gone.

the Albigensian Crusade worked out pretty well. But it was alot more convenient, being local and all.

I'm against all attempts to "convert" people to any religion. Live your religion, and if you demonstrate that it's got something to offer, others will join you. If you demonstrate the opposite, they won't. But trying to shove any religion down anyone's throat - for any reason - is bullshit, IMO.

Then forcing Lithuanian pagans to Christianity and committing Holy Jihad is fun!

the Russians, Holy Roman Empire, Poles, and Danes in that scenario...

The pre-Christian Lithuanians have some interesting units.

Great game it is: Medieval Total War II: Kingdoms.

:D :thumbsup:

I love it so!

I'm such a tactics geek gamer... :blush:

nothing like taking the Mughal empire and conquering all of Asia and Europe... and it's a great way to see how the Najd and Hedjaz parlay diplomacy and religion into political power.

Are the marines being issued these coins, a ridiculous FUBAR "hearts & minds" psyops?

Or are some fundy missionary creeps interfering with the actual "mission" of the military in their fervor & zeal(ot)?




Both scenarios are equally disturbing.

Unit coins are a big deal. I've seen Marines hand out unit coins to members of the IA and IP when they've done a good job on something. I've also heard of them given to local sheiks to help form a good relationship with the sheik.

No unit coins have any religious phrases on them.

I can promise you that right now I MEF HQ is freaking out about this.

Handing out those coins is STUPID and is in direct conflict with what the Marine leadership is trying to do in Al Anbar right now.

This is most likely a couple overly religious Marines who decided that it would be a good idea to get some coins like this made and hand them out to the Iraqis. They are going to be in deep sh*t when they are found.

What I would like to know is: Who ordered and who made these coins?

My experience is telling me it is some NCO or junior Marine who is a fundie and had the coins made before he left.

There is a VERY HIGH likelihood that this Marine/Marines will be court marshaled for handing out those coins.

Looking at the last couple fuck-ups in Iraq I doubt if there is a court-martial its going to get much, if any, attention.

"On May 29, the U.S. military apologized for the incident and said that action would be taken following an investigation.

One Marine making a mistake shouldn't brand the work of hundreds of Marines, said Sgt. Maj. Neil O'Connell in western Anbar province. He went on to tell the story of two young Marines who took the blow of a truck bomb to protect Iraqi police.

"Such an action will not pass without proper punishment," O'Connell said. "We started a formal investigation to figure out exactly what happened.""


That is military speak for "We're gathering all the facts that will be used against this Marine when he punish him." This guy will probably not be allowed to opt for non-judicial punishment (NJP) and will either get a summary or general court marshal.



As for where the coins came from:
"A U.S. military spokesman said he was unsure where the silver coins came from but speculated that they may have been sent to the young Marine from outside Iraq.

"Regulations prohibit members of the coalition force from proselytizing any religion, faith or practices, and our troops are trained on those guidelines before they deploy," said Col. Bill Buckner, a Multi-National Corps spokesman, in a statement."

Both quotes from:
http://www.military.com/news/article/marine-reassigned-over-coin-flap.html

Probably some Evilangelical group is supplying these to the grunts. *Not* supporting the troops, once again.

Ahhhhh.... the 2 "convert 'em or kill 'em" religions are at it again. When will these two lame cults just go away????

these marines have better things to do than becoming tent preachers.

grounds for death. (See the story about the Muslim who converted to Catholicism at Easter)


Being Christian in Iraq is not a death sentence. Iraq has a sizable Christian community.

....Seriously, you'd be surprised how many people seem to be surprised at the sizable Christian populations of the middle east... and then summarily dismiss them because they're not protestant or Roman Catholic.

Even if they are Protestant / RC.

After all, if they wanted to live, they wouldn't live in the same town as Hezbollah, amirite?

These are the kind of Marines that will get you killed. They don't care how bad they do their job, because their so-called gift in heaven or so-called rapture is coming anyway, so to hell with it! I guarantee they are probably the type who go to one of those non-denominational cults within a few miles of the base they are stationed at. Kind of like over at MCAS Yuma with The Door, Desert Fire Ministries or Generations Church.

In my unit we had a mix of centrist christians, conservative secularists, gun loving liberals, vampire worshipers, a few atheists, some Gays & Lesbians; and the rest don't give a f*** and want to have a good time on Liberty. Being the naval aviation unit we are, the vast majority enjoys some alcohol on occasion. But I've rarely ever seen anyone try to convert anyone. They are the ones who wind up going nuts at the end of their enlistment.

who, like you said, goes to some whacked out evangelical church. He was probably given those coins before he left and told to "go to his duty to God."

This is the stupid kind of stuff that can get your squad mates killed.

Fallujah is finally settling down and now this idiot is out there handing out coins interpreted by the locals as trying to convert the Iraqis. The Iraqis had enough of the "converting" when AQI was in charge and they sure don't want any more now with the Marines living in their town.

and the coins came from an outside agency.

Set up check-points in New York, shot down men on the streets of Des Moines, raped women in Tulsa, kicked in doors in Salt Lake, tortured Americans in Atlanta, then passed out coins with quotes from the Quron?

What do you think would happen?

:rofl:

:D

Some soldiers wouldn't issue water unless people converted to Christianity on the spot.

I never heard of them before, but it seems to be a well-known military tradition. There are a few religious variants (http://collectibles.search.ebay.com/_Christianity_W0QQsacatZ11668QQsassZwirkaholic), and I would guess that is where these are coming from.

http://everything2.com/e2node/Challenge%2520Coin

Challenge Coins are developed for specific units (military or otherwise) and is used to identify the bearer with their organization. These coins have a whole mystique about them. (e.g., they can't rightfully be pierced and used as a keychain fob as an example). If a group of service people are in a bar and one of them asserts a challenge, everyone within earshot has to produce their challenge coin or they have to stand the challenger to a drink. If the challenger fails to produce his/her own coin if asked to, they have to buy a round of drinks for those with coins.

There are nuances and subtleties with Challenge Coins. If you own one and somebody asks to look at it, that person can keep the coin if you hand it to them. The correct procedure is to put it on a table or bar and then move away so that the other person can look at it. It's generally understood that the owner should not go more than three feet from the coin. However, the person who wants to look at it can then pick it up and examine it without the ownership transferring. When the person is finished examining the coin, he or she should place it back at the spot they picked it up from, and the owner then retrieves it. Those are the main rules. . . .

Some enlisted associations will sell RMOs to raise funds for unit activities. Some units sell them in their gift shop. Occasionally, a unit will have several types of coins in circulation at the same time: a cheap, publicly available coin, purchased for $5.00 at the gift shop, and the more ornate "Commander's Coin" or "Chief's Coin", given by the commander or chief of a unit for a job well done. These are usually the normal unit coin painted with enamel paints. I was personally passed a coin in a handshake by a colonel who felt my briefing had contributed to his unit's mission; I didn't realize the coin was being passed, and missed my chance to have a colonel's coin. Generals will give out their RMO on a whim while taking a tour of another unit--sometimes you just need to ask, sometimes it's passed in a handshake, and other times you'll find it on your desk in an envelope the day after the General comes by. In this manner, the challenge coin is positive reinforcement: everyone in a small unit will know who has the Colonel's, Chief's, and General's coins, and they're usually the role models.

USAA, First Command, etc. are companies that have coins made and give them to their military customers.

These coins were probably made a fundie church and given to their young Marine members to give to the Iraqis in their "ministries."


I've never seen a military coin (from an actual military unit, ie 2nd Bn, 5th Marines) with a religious passage, so I'm 99% certain these coins are not unit coins.

What this kid is doing is so incredibly stupid it boggles the mind. I really hope they find him and throw the book at him (but not the Koran, I kid, I kid).

Muslims are free in this country to try and convert Christians to Islam. Which of these words do you not agree with, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16."

back then.

It also pisses off the locals who have finally agreed to work with the US and IA.

Also:

Islam does not recognize Jesus as the son of God. They see him as a Prophet and that argument is a big issue when discussing the difference between the two religions.

There were Christian captives who escaped after being held by AQI who stated that they were lined up and put on their knees. An AQI member with a pistol went up to the first captive and asked him if he believed Jesus was the son of God or a Prophet. The captive was Christian and said that he believed Jesus was the son of God. The AQI member shot him in the head and then moved on to the next captive and asked the same question. Needless to say, the rest of the captives said "Jesus is a prophet."

if there were, you might maybe possibly feel a little differently about being proselytized at gunpoint.

The Muslims in this country are NOT occupying us. The Marines in Iraq ARE occupying their country -- they're also in uniform and are armed, while the civilians they're pressing with these coins aren't.

Try putting yourself in the Iraqis' place and engage your brain.

When you're in someone else's country, then you respect their customs... Here it would be a non-issue if anyone tried to convert some random people (within reason of course)..... And yes, I think that applies to people from other countries who come to the US... So there is no need to go down that road and change the debate... :P

As far as which words I don't agree with?

God. Only begotten Son, eternal life.

or, basically, the entire gist of the sentence. are you really so isolated from anyone other than evangelical christians that you do not realize there are millions in this nation who do not share your belief and who find it repulsive that a military person would abuse his position and seemingly (in the eyes of that community) intimidate those who don't share his beliefs?

evangelicals need to realize, and quickly, that they do not have a lock on truth (esp. if they believe in a literal translation of genesis, etc. - in that case they are flat out deluded.) Those of us who do not practice their religion have a right to not be harassed by those who do in our places of work, our homes, our govt. offices, our schools...

if you want to know why ppl find evangelicals so disgusting, it's because they're goddamn self-righteous and so disrespectful of others' beliefs.

google is your friend.

has been handed over to the religious fundamentalists.

If you don't believe it, just check out some of the things they are doing.

The military is extremely representative of the population it comes from.

For every general you have that is a general who is evangelical, you have one who is a catholic, or one who is protestant, or one who an atheist etc..

I would have to hear more of it before I would say that was the case. As of right now, I would assume this just a few fundies who are very confused with how things work.

What a moronic thing to say.

Also, check out this Comment O' The Day:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/38820.html

Hi there! We've bombed your country, crippled your infrastructure, killed thousands of your citizens, and pretty much ruined any chance for you or your remaining loved ones to have any semblance of a normal life in your homeland. But we're hoping this shiny fake coin that says you're going to hell unless you accept Jesus as Lord will somehow comfort you.

Sincerely,
Handful of Well-Intentioned but not-so-bright US Marines

:rofl:

Oh yeah, that'll go down real well. The stupidity of religious fundamentalists never ceases to amaze me.

I guess instead of a coin gift we are supposed to believe that handing a dove
feather to someone means we are trying to convert them to peace. If only it were
so easy. Just yesterday a cop gave me a ticket and converted coins in my pocket to
a line item on the county ledger.

With all this converting going on out there it's a wonder we even have time to sleep.

Obviously the guys handing these out are stupid for not considering the affect it would have on people who are probably just as devout in their beliefs as they are... I have no doubt that if a muslim was passing out coins to them with a similar message, then these types of people would be stupidly upset too...

I know if some christian handed me that coin or a muslim handed me one with something similar, then I wouldn't give two shits, and would probably try to use it to get one of those awesome stickers from those machines at the supermarket... I'm sure many here would have the same reaction, aye? People need to lighten up over this religion stuff...


Either way, the marines are in their country and should have known better than to do something that would only serve to cause problems...

Source: Yahoo news

By Jamal Naji and Leila Fadel, McClatchy Newspapers
Wed May 28, 8:00 PM ET



FALLUJAH, Iraq — At the western entrance to the Iraqi city of Fallujah Tuesday, Muamar Anad handed his residence badge to the U.S. Marines guarding the city. They checked to be sure that he was a city resident, and when they were done, Anad said, a Marine slipped a coin out of his pocket and put it in his hand.



Out of fear, he accepted it, Anad said. When he was inside the city, the college student said, he looked at one side of the coin. "Where will you spend eternity?" it asked.

He flipped it over, and on the other side it read, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16."

I am a Christian, but this act is idiotic and these people need to be called on the carpet. It's illegal and the damage these people are doing to the US's already tarnished image is ...



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080529/wl_mcclatchy/2951727

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I am a Christian, but this act is idiotic and these people need to be called on the carpet. It's illegal and the damage these people are doing to the US's already tarnished image is ...

Marine removed from duty over Bible coin reports


Military spokesman condemns act, promises that appropriate action will be taken

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A U.S. Marine in Iraq has been removed from duty amid complaints that he was handing out coins with Bible verses at an American checkpoint, the military said Thursday.

A military spokesman said Iraqis in Falluja complained that the Marine was giving the coins, which were printed in Arabic, to people at an entry control point in Falluja.

U.S. military regulations prohibit religious proselytizing.

"This has our full attention," said Col. James L. Welsh, chief of staff of Multi-National Force, West. "We deeply value our relationship with the local citizens and share their concerns over this serious incident."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/29/iraq.bible/index.html

Look at what this group is doing!

http://www.forceministries.com

As in respect for others' beliefs? Should be.

and he was surrounded by his enemies - then would he do the same thing?

even if it seems more noted in the breach than the practice.

The Koran specifically requires respect for "people of the Book" = being Jews and Christians. It would appear their fundies do as little scripture reading as our fundies do.

in the dying days of the Roman Empire

I mean as a group. Individual believers vary, of course.

Because those folks enjoy a not-so-good reputation around these parts. We have officially denied that this is a mission seeking to conquer Muslim lands and to convert anyone. If Bush & McCain really want an eternal war (which they do) this is even better than Iraqis thinking we're there to steal the oil.

:banghead:

high in the admin to do this....

When it all comes out I think people will be shocked about how some of the irrelevent tasks were micromanaged by the admin and it's lackeys.

http://www.military.com/news/article/marine-reassigned-over-coin-flap.html

"Such an action will not pass without proper punishment," O'Connell said. "We started a formal investigation to figure out exactly what happened."

The correspondent was taken around the base in Fallujah and into the dining facilities to show that there's no religious proselytizing or discrimination on the military base. A poster on a base billboard advertised Friday prayers to observant Muslims, and Iraqi employees eat in the same dining facility where leading U.S. officers dine. A U.S. military spokesman said he was unsure where the silver coins came from but speculated that they may have been sent to the young Marine from outside Iraq.

"Regulations prohibit members of the coalition force from proselytizing any religion, faith or practices, and our troops are trained on those guidelines before they deploy," said Col. Bill Buckner, a Multi-National Corps spokesman, in a statement.


"This has our full attention," said Col. James L. Welsh, the chief of staff of the Multi-National Force West in a statement. "We deeply value our relationship with the local citizens and share their concerns over this serious incident."

Ok... this is beyond any sort of pale.

It isnt stupid. It is the apotheosis of FAIL.

"Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" -I'm gonna use that. Expect no residuals

it is in the public leetspeak domain.

how freaking stupid these people can be

are doing to the New Testaments torched in Israel.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3329154

PB

:puke:

Religious whack jobs from any sect disgust me

As some of you know, I have spent about 5 years living in Muslim countries--2 years in Saudi Arabia and nearly 3 years in Egypt, where I am posting from even as you read.

I have never seen Muslims try to convert people, or at least foreigners, the same way I see Xian Fundies do in the U.S.

My experience with Xian Fundie conversions goes way back, since I grew about 40 miles from Bob Jones University. Every spring the BJU...heh...students would swarm into the surrounding communities and do loud, showy street-preaching.

One of the many reasons I'm a happy atheist today, but most of my relatives back there are certainly Xians. Some of them have a nickname for Bob Jones that always cracked me up as a kid--"Jesus Tech."

But back to the Muslims. I just don't see feverish proselytizing over here.

The closest I've come to it was one co-worker in Saudi Arabia, and he used the approach of "Islam is the most rational religion." A sentiment with which I disagreed violently, but I was in his country and stayed polite.

When he saw that I wasn't interested, he dropped the subject and never brought it up again.

Back when I first came to Egypt, one day I was yakking with some Egyptian co-workers. One of them came out and asked point-blank: "What religion are you?"

While I was trying to come up with an answer, the others started severely reprimanding the questioner: "Don't ask that! He's our guest and you're embarassing him. It's none of your business!" Etc. I still work with this guy nearly every day, so no hard feelings on either side, AFAIK.

Egypt is 95% Muslim but its largest Xian community, the Copts, are a native religion. The word "Copt" literally means "Egyptian."

My Egyptian co-workers include Muslims, Copts, and at least one Egyptian Catholic. Everybody gets along. During the Coptic Easter holidays (a week later than that other Easter), I know the Muslims covered for a Xian co-worker so he could go on vacation with his family.

I live in Alexandria, probably the most liberal city in Egypt (and the Islamic Fundies here just HATE that. Evil women walking around without headscarves!). In both 2005 and 2006, Alexandria had some fearsome religious riots blow up between the Muslims and Copts. My co-workers were horrified and baffled by that. Many times they told me: "Everybody gets along here. This kind of thing does not happen in Alexandria."

They blamed "outsiders" and they may have a point. Probably outsiders of the Wahhabi persuasion from right across the Red Sea (or at least their money), though I'm just guessing at that.

the Crusades had a stated aim of religious domination but also a subtext, IIRC, of financial gain.

Geez, these soldiers need to remember about the current invasion that securing the newest Oil Colony is much, much more important than the religious component.:eyes: