Black Clergy Rally to Dispel Comparisons of Civil Rights and Gay Marrige

ATLANTA (AP) - More than two dozen black pastors added their voice to the critics of same-sex marriage, attempting to distance the civil rights struggle from the gay rights movement and defending marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

"When the homosexual compares himself to the black community, he doesn't know what suffering is," said the Rev. Clarence James, an African-American studies professor at Temple University.

Jones and 29 pastors rallied late Monday with their supporters at an Atlanta-area church where they signed a declaration outlining their beliefs on marriage and religion.

<snip>

The declaration, to be presented to state leaders Tuesday, says same-sex marriage is not a civil right, and marriage between a man and a woman is important because it's necessary for the upbringing of children.

"To equate a lifestyle choice to racism demeans the work of the entire civil rights movement," the statement said. "People are free in our nation to pursue relationships as they choose. To redefine marriage, however, to suit the preference of those choosing alternative lifestyles is wrong

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAKOCER5SD.html

Goddamn that Matthew Shepard. He didn't know what suffering is.

I am in full agreement with tom_paine on this and he said it better than I can right now so, here is his post:

post #4, by tom_paine:

I don't mean to insult African-Americans, but doesn't it seem a trifle odd that directly behind every "Black Bushevik" from OJ Watts to Rev. Jesse Peterson to this groupt urns out to be funded and "organized" by White Bushevik with handfuls of $100s?

(It is important to note here that EVERY race, creed, and color of human beings carries with them member who will appily sell out their own people for 30 pieces of silver)

Which shows, IMHO, how savvy African-Americans are in general that soooo much Bushevik Booty has to funnel down even to get the small numbers of Quislings they buy off.

However, I bring this up merely to say that I KNEW that a White Bushevik would be behind this rally, even before I read it.

That is because Busheviks, like, Stalinists, Nazis, Ferdinand Marcos, and all the other Totalitarian Scum who came before them, are extremely predictable.

Some info on the White Guy who's "organizing" (read, proffering fistfuls of under-the=tabel Bushevik $100s) the "rally":

http://www.gafam.org/publication.aspx?a=8

is loosely equated to other people's tragedies and struggles?

It seems the Holocaust is the one struggle where the blood spilled and lives lost is respected. I have seen many times where Jewish people publicly state that the slave trade should not be equated with the Holocaust. More power to them for standing up for respect of the pain and suffering their generations past experienced.

It seems blacks can't get that respect..... from the millions lost in the slave trade to lynchings to not being able to vote the list goes on......

The same way Jewish people do not want the slave trade equated with the Holocaust, I think it is basic respect for African Americans to not have our struggle conveniently used as it is disrespectful for the blood spilled, the millions of lives lost and the principles upon which the movement was based! Sorry, Dr King was not fighting a fight for Gay rights, it was NOT the issue of the day.

This has nothing to do with Anti-Semitism or Gay bashing! This all comes back to the same fight Black people have had all these generations, and that is black blood and life is still not valued.

Who brought the soda and popcorn for the show? I brought last time, damnit!

Guess these bible thumpers have never heard of Equal Protection Under The Law or something?

Don

Basically they are saying, "I fought hard for my civil rights and I know that you people helped, but now that I have them you and the rest of the people can go screw yourselves." Damn! This just makes my blood boil.

right. I'm not sure what to say about this as I'm pretty pissed off, but it appears the politics of divide and conquer is working as planned.

Black gays, as well as white gays, chinese gays etc.

WHat you are fighting for, is to get marriage benifits?

WHy compare it to anything. Why not go out and fight the good fight.
Those who support support, and those who don't don't. In reality, who is the "THEY" that you speak of. BLACK CLERGY. AND WHAT HAS BEEN THE BLACK CLERGY FIGHT, i am not particualarly familiar. See, how your own feelings of predjiduce come through. Who is the "THEY." The article was focused on BLACK CLERGY members. Thats a specific group with specific opinions on allot of sh*t, including allot of the sinful sh*t i do. Their opinion towards premarital relations is just the same, and lord knows I've done my fair share. SO who is the "THEY" you speak of. Who is the THEY you're directing your anger towards.

They are the clergy who choose to continue to oppress other people. They are the minority communities who enjoy the support of other minority groups in support for their civil rights. but when it comes to standing up for the rights of others, They become the oppressors. That's who THEY are. They are opportunistic hypocritic pigs.

Why not just say its the Clergy. A couple of the clergy happened to be black. Thats why this article stood out.

Tell me, be specific when you accuse. What minority groups. What other minority groups who enjoy the support of other minority groups. This is a clergy battle, because marriage and religion, whether you like it or not, go hand in hand. THe biggest enemies of you all is the religious right. Is a rich Republican who chooses to be Gay, a minority group. See, it's kind of a gray area. Some people are Gay, then stop being Gay, others come out of the closet later on, their is a transition at times. I'm Black for life, defined as such. It's a bit more complicated, and yet, people still try to compare the two.

Clergy, the battle is with the clergy. BTW, Black Americans are in a state where we don't even have advocates for ourselves, better yet the ability to help someone else. Outside of native-Americans, I can't think of a single other minority group in this country in as worse a position as we are in. Same-Sex marriages have been happening all over the country. What's the beef. The beef is with the Clergy, be it black, white, puerto rican, or asian.

The black leaders dismissing the similarities of the two struggles are woefully ignorant. While there are indeed differences, it is the common underlying principles that are important. African Americans didn't win their struggles because of the black experience, they won because this nation has a Constitution that ultimately was enforced. Gays are now simply asking for the same and it cheapens the entire civil rights movement to say that it was more about race than law.

It can get pretty complicated but essentially I think that's a way to go.

MLK once said:

The outcome of the present struggle will be some time in unfolding, but the line of its direction is clear. It is a final refutation of the time-honored theory that the Negro prefers segregation. It would be futile to deplore, as many do, the tensions accompanying the social changes. Tension and conflict are not alien nor abnormal to growth but are the natural results of the process of changes. A revolution is occurring in both the social order and the human mind. One hundred eighty-four years ago a bold group of men signed the Declaration of Independence. If their struggle had been lost they had signed their own death warrant. Nevertheless, through explicitly regretting that King George had forced them to this extreme by a long "train of abuses," they resolutely acted and a great new society was born. The Negro students, their parents, and their allies are acting today in that imperishable tradition

(From "The Burning Truth in the South.")

ON EDIT: Typos.

"The black leaders" eh?

These are BLACK CLERGYMEN. BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE HOLMES.
CLERGY IS CLERGY.
I don't see Jessie Jackson and his Rainbow coalition saying these things, nor any particualar individual considered a prominent black leader. I do hear alot of PUbbies saying that sh*T though, you know, to score political points.

The black struggle = all about race lol. Rascism = all about race lol

I wish it wasn't that way too.

Peace to all

I am very reluctant to compare the gay civil rights issue with that of the Civil Rights Movement; but, the fact that people are doing so seems to be an excuse for these men to deny that gays should even HAVE those civil rights. Such a formulation is without validity, and they know this in their hearts if they are true Christians.

I'd add, it's insulting to Black Gays and Lesbians to hear these men talk about "the homosexual," as if all homosexuals are white. Black preachers are notoriously blind when it comes to GLBT people in their communities. I think this accounts for a lot of the alleged homophobia among African-Americans. I feel that by far the majority of African-Americans are not at all homophobic, but many of their local leaders, who are ministers, are, and they end up speaking for the community.

....for them it's a religious issue. I hate the term "black leaders" anyway, it's not like there are "white leaders".

Time and time again, religion is proven to be the source of most bigotry in the world.

Is paying attention

I guess bigotry is not only a white thing.....

I hate seeing conformation of it as often as we do.

First of all, this guy is apart of the clergy. The clergy feels the way it feels. Secondly, trying to compare the Civil Rights movement with the Gay Movement is like comparing Apples with Oranges. The Civil Rights movement has continuously been going on for 400 years. Is rascism dead. Hell no, its just not as apparent as it was say 20 years ago. Now, the rascism is perpertuated behind closed doors, with a few individuals in key posititions (i.e. "Cunti" and Powell) to give the illusion of collor blindness.

Understand, that in 2004, right now, a Black man is 23 (FBI statistics) times more likely to be sent to jail for the same drug offense as a white man. 1/2 of all black children are in Poverty etc. etc. Did the Gay individuals come over in chains on slave ships etc. etc. For a people that have scratched and clawed for "peanuts" for 400 years and going, just to be considered relevant and equal, its kind of offensive for the johnnie come lately's to try and jump on the bandwagon and try to link two seperate struggles. Thats like me getting a paper cut, and comparing myself with someone who got both his legs blown off and parapalegic. What makes a person gay, in essense, is basically having a SEXUAL relationship with someone of the same sex. Until you have that SEXUAL relationship, however you may feel is however you may feel. So someone comparing their sex life, to the very real struggle of Black people in this country, and trying to equate them is highly offensive to many. It marginalizes our Looooooong struggle.

When I first read these messages I couldn't believe it. I thought i was on free republic. A gay person can go to a job interview, can do anything he pleases, until he tells someone he/she is Gay. Can a black person hide his blackness in order not to be discriminated upon. NO. When the police pull me over, can i hide it. When I'm looked upon as a threat to society, NO. etc. etc. etc. The whole marriage thing is an attempt for them to have their lifestyle choice to be accepted by all, when the marriage in of itself is considered to be a religious thing. That's like me having premarital sex with various women, and wanting the priest to condone it, and if they don't comparing my struggle to to the Jews in the holocaust. Hey, If a Jewish person were to speak about struggle, I wouldn't have a thing to say about that. I just resent them marginalizing a very real and continuous struggle as if the histories are the same.

whowever you want to have SEX with is your business.

More like red apples and green apples. No one in the gay community is claiming that they have gone through the SAME suffering as blacks. They are drawing parralells between struggles for equal rights. The Civil Rights Movement (notice caps) was about blacks, but the push for civil rights (no caps) is about EVERYONE.

I do not understand your argument - you basically say that blacks have had it worse therefore gays don't deserve their rights. What the hell is that? Everyone else should be forced to suffer in the same way before they are allowed equal rights/protections under the law?

You said "The whole marriage thing is an attempt for them to have their lifestyle choice to be accepted by all, when the marriage in of itself is considered to be a religious thing."

1. The same thing can be (and was) said of interracial marriage. Blacks were never denied the right to marry, only not allowed to marry whites. I guess you think we should re-enact the anti-miscegenation laws since it was an attempt by blacks to force white people into accepting their choice of mates form another race. No one forced them to choose a white person, it was simply a lifestyle choice they made. </sarcasm> How can you not see the similarity of these two situations?

2. Marriage is NOT only a religious institution. There are over 1,000 LEGAL BENEFITS from the GOVERNMENT that go along with marriage. This has absolutely nothing to do with the church. No one is trying to force the church ot recognize gay marriages. We just want the same rights and benefits that hetero couples receive. That's all. Why is it so much to ask for?

Lastly, being gay is NOT JUST ABOUT SEX!!!!!!! It is about who people are. It is not a choice. Nobody chooses who they are attracted to and who they fall in love with. When did you choose to be straight? It is just a part of you. You can choose to try gay sex, but that does not make you gay. Likewise, I could choose to have straight sex, but I would still not be straight. It is not just about sex.

and honestly, i'm appalled by this. so gay people should be enslaved and segregated for hundreds of years before they would have suffered enough to deserve equal rights? what hogwash...this is ignorant. if there is one thing my american black brothers and sisters should understand, it is the negative effect of bigotry and being considered second class citizens on both the human spirit and the spirit of a community.

shame on these people.

If thats what they/you want to do, then i say let them/you. Who am I.

Say for example, you were abused from childhood, raped at an early age, lived in foster homes, had a drug addicted parent, the other one was murdered and some real real shitty experieces from day one that left you completely insane. If someone else didn't have that same expereince, and then wanted to tell you, well, we're the same, having not dealt with anyone of the things you had to, you'd feel kind of upset about that. That's not to say you haven't had your struggles, Just don't compare your history to mine if they aren't similar and depth. Like I said, If a Jewish guy were to get on here and speak, or a native-American, or a Russian that survived the Gulags and Stalin, or the Gypsies in Europe, THEN I WOULDN'T SAY SHIT. THose are some MOTHERFUCKING REAL STRUGGLES. Slavery, the Holocaust, thats REAL.


Peace to all

The Nazi's went after homosexuals as rabidly as they did the Jews. There just weren't as many homosexuals, and American history books just don't like dealing with the subject so you don't learn about it in school.

Also, no one is saying it is THE SAME struggle. Just that there are similarities between the movements and there are. You never addressed the anti-miscegenation issue - how is the gay marriage issue any different than when blacks were not allowed to marry whites? Please explain.

Exactly my point, if its not the SAME type of struggle than why compare it. That's my only point. If I'm in a marathon and have been running for lets say, 400 years (metaphorically of course) to try and reach a finish line, and the closer i get to it, the further it keeps getting pushed back, and someone else comes along and has been running for 5 minutes comes along and all of a sudden wants to say, "hey, I'm running your running, whats the differece." The person running for 400 years is going to feel enraged in someone trying to compare the two. Sure, we're both running now, but the historical content, as well as all that involved would really enrage someone.

They'd think "well the audacity of this person." Thats like you being at a job for 30 years starting at nothing and scraping one day at a time just for some semblence of respect, then someone else coming along after all the work you put in paving the way, and not giving any credit to that person, and trying to equate the struggles as similar, and then getting promoted ahead of you, after being at the job for a week (don't forget, their have been same-sex marriages all over the country recently, this has only been made an issue, within the last couple of years), and then trying to be all self-righteous when dealing with you, and equating everything as similar.

Can you see where I'm coming from? Thats what I like about DU, I only have 4 posts, but have been reading for about 2 years, at least once a week. See, people over here, myself included, can be reasonable. Over at free republic, everyone is just a brain dead clone. You could tell them that the sky is blue and all they had to do was look up, and they'd still tell you you it's green, and won't even look up.

As for Blacks marrying whites, i believe you did some focus group type work to try and find the one angle to try and open up an offensive and i rightly left it alone, and you realized that.
It was the GREATER rascim issue that made this an issue. Blacks weren't allowed to do allot of other things as well, including not drinking at the same waterfountain or using the same bathroom as well as a mariad of other things. Blacks weren't allowed to do thousands of things, so to pick this one out of the thousands, to try and show similarity is a trick that I'm not falling for. Do they have signs up that say, ONLY STRAIGHTS ALLOWED. BIG ASS DIFFERENCES HOLMES. THATS WHAT I'M saying. APPLES AND FUCKING ORANGES, NO OFFENSE.

By the way, I show respect to all those who show me respect, and those who mean no harm to others. Thats how I carry it myself. To each his own. If you really really grew up hard, and somebody else was telling you they grew up hard too, just like you, similar to you, say some asswhole like George Bush, then you'd probably have a real ass problem with that possibly too. That don't mean he didn't grow up hard in his own mind, it just means he can't try to compare his "hard" with my "hard."

Peace

I'm hearing a lot of anger at the comparison of Blacks and gays. The Black experience isn't the same as the Gay experience and neither are the same as Women's experience. You are angry because Blacks have not achieved full equality. Yes, I understand that but don't take your anger out on the wrong people. Your feeling superior to gays is similar to white guys feeling superior to you. Remember, to get where you are today a lot of non Blacks had to help. In fact, it was women who agitated against slavery and brought the pressure to bear to end that institution. Gays also helped you "run your race" so you are spitting in their face by saying they shouldn't be in the race.

This is also not a religious issue. Both of my sons can be married in my church, however, the state will only recognize one of them.

And you say that gays can "pass" so it's not so terrible. Well, this society hates women so any man or boy who is the least bit "sissy" gets picked on, beat up, spit on, etc. whether he is gay or not.

Also being married is not about sex. If my husband and I could never have sex again, we would still be married, be partners, be next of kin and all those other benefits and responsibilities that marriage means.

Please, open your heart, this is not about you and takes nothing from you.

I feel superior to gays. Please Please Please.

I have come to find out that people read, hear, and see, what they want to read, hear, and see. Your trying to get me flamed by asserting that in some way shape or form I feel superior to gays. Trying to win allies huh? Please, to make a charge like that..... back it up. Show me some quote in which i have said, or even motherfucking insinuated that I (empasish on I) feel superior to Gays. You are patronizing me, please, come on, by all means show me a qoute or something of the sort, I've have written allot on this topic.

My point has been to simply state that, the struggles are different. THe historical context is much different. People struggle for allot of things, including higher wages etc. But it does a dishoner to generations who were treated completely inhuman, and murdered on a large scale, to try to compare and tie the two together. And secondly, how many were trying to portray it as leaders in the black community etc. WHen in reality, the article said a few black CLERGY, along with other CLERGY as well. A couple People were trying to make it like some double standard and sh*t and trying to find a reason to get all worked up on some, "F*ck black people," type sh*t. And I feel that comparing one to the other, is marginalizing the other for its level of viciousness and inhumanity.

Straight Only, never saw signs like that everywhere. With the entire government and political system to back it up for CENTURIES. never saw that.
I'm Done,

from each other, but the bottom line is that NO ONE should be oppressed by the legal/political system regardless of their struggle. Civil rights are civil rights.

Stop focusing on comparison and realize that this is how the powers that be keep ALL marginalized groups down. They set one group up against another and the infighting detracts from the real issue at hand, namely that one's basic HUMAN rights are at stake.

I think you are missing the big picture.

No one should be oppressed. My entire problem HAS BEEN WITH THOSE WHO WANT TO COMPARE. WHY DOES IT SEEM THAT INDIVIDUALS HAVE NOT GOTTEN THAT. I agree, divide and conquer has been going on since the beggining of time. MY ENTIRE FOCUS HAS BEEN, PLEASE DON'T COMPARE ONE WITH THE OTHER AS FAR AS THE SCOPE AND EVERYTHING INVOLVED. THE ONLY COMPARISON IS THAT HUMAN RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS. AS FOR THE DEPTH AND LENGHT OF THE STRUGGLE, PLEASE DON'T COMPARE.

COMPARISON HAS BEEN MY ONLY PROBLEM! JESUS CHRIST
DON'T COMPARE THE TWO.
NOBODY'S COMPARING GAY'S TRYING TO GET MARRIAGE BENIFITS TO THE HOLOCAUST. IMAGINE HOW JEWS WOULD BE OFFENDED. WELL THATS HOW I FEEL!

as your struggle is worse therefore you are superior. A type of one-up-manship.

"Exactly my point, if its not the SAME type of struggle than why compare it. That's my only point. If I'm in a marathon and have been running for lets say, 400 years (metaphorically of course) to try and reach a finish line, and the closer i get to it, the further it keeps getting pushed back, and someone else comes along and has been running for 5 minutes comes along and all of a sudden wants to say, "hey, I'm running your running, whats the differers." The person running for 400 years is going to feel enraged in someone trying to compare the two. Sure, we're both running now, but the historical content, as well as all that involved would really enrage someone. "

I apologize for sounding patronizing. I was trying to be calm and rational.

Is your point that someone referred to "a few Black Clergy" as Black leaders? Or that gays haven't suffered enough and therefore are not entitled to civil rights? I'm trying to understand where your anger is coming from.

It is about ME. You personalized that message. And out of everyone, you came off as the most condescending.

BTW, "To get to where you are"

Where am I today. I could be in jail due to the inverse war on drugs, which has been the war on the black community. Don't forget FBI statistics: Black men 23 times more likely to be incarcerated for the same non-violent drug offense as white men.

"It was woman who agitated against slavery." No actually slavery was ended due to political reasons of representation. Abraham Lincoln never wanted equality between the black and white race. It was purely political. BTW, the feminist movement began in the 1970's directly due to many of the doors being opened by the black civil rights movement. Many felt, that right when blacks started to get noticed and get a bit of power, many other groups jumped on the bandwagon with their own agendas and in many ways took the steam from the black civil rights movement. Like jumping ahead in line.

Also, were blacks are today, if you were aware of the statistics, is an extremely f*cked up position. Reagonomics my friend, Reagonomics. Everytime blacks may have made inroads, it was always a Richard Nixon, Always a Ronald Reagon, Always a George Bush. Things were beggining to look a bit up during Clinton, now once again....

"This is not about you and takes nothing from you."
I'm mean, what, are you going to pat me on the head next.
Maybe you MEANT well. Any Fucking how, Democrats aren't the enemy. At least far far from the biggest one. So peace to all, hope I can now go to a topic in which we all agree on.

Check your history. In fact, if you want to talk about whose struggle is worse, let's talk about women. Women's struggle has been going on far longer and has been every bit as bad as Black's. Black women had the same problems as Black men and then some, like rape. Every other group that has been oppressed has included women and then women as a group have been oppressed. Double whammy.

What "political reasons" ended slavery? Women, even southern women, were going around rallying people, speaking against slavery, this was all they could do because they had no political power themselves. In fact, Black men got the right to vote before women did. Once again, my struggle has been worse than yours so how dare you complain. Do you hear how silly that sounds?

As for where "you" are, I was speaking generically. You are no longer a slave, you can read - used to be against the law to teach Blacks to read, you can vote. Yes, there is a long way to go but denigrating gays isn't going to get you there any sooner. You are not racing against gays or women or Hispanics or any other group.

I haven't said don't complain, I have said Gays should do whatever it is they want. It's a free country. Just don't try to compare one struggle with another, when you don't truelly understand the other. "Be your own man," is basically what I have been saying.

Once again, how have i "denigrated gays." You are constantly putting innacurate shit out their. I have no fucking idea what your problem is. First you say I think I'm superior. Then you say I'm denigrating gays. My entire piece has been to say, YOu do your's just don't compare yours to ours if the histories are different. Simple as that. I say equal rights for everybody. Just don't compare. What is the purpose. Fight for your right to get marriage benifits, thats what its all about. Thats infinetely less than what blacks started off and had to fight. If you can't see the difference in magnitude... Rights is rights, there's a huge level in magnitude is my whole point. If you don't and can't get this, I will write no more.

You will see and feel whatever it is you want, regardless of what I say, thats apparrent. By all means stop responding to me after your next post, because I will no longer waste my time responding to you about anything.

when you don't truelly understand the other."

This is rich, coming from a heterosexual who has no problem at all lecturing the homos on what our lives are really all about.

You would do well to follow your own advice.

Follow your advice and stop comparing, and I'll follow mine eh?

And everybody stays happy. Everybody started comparing first, that was my whole issue. Why bring the black experience into the equation. Why not bring the Jews, or the Native Americans or the Shyites etc. Why say, "hey our struggle is just like theirs," when your talking about a people brought over packed in boats, hanged and lynched, treated worse than dogs, chained etc. Why us?

You keep referring to all these people ("everybody") who are saying that the black and gay experiences are the same, so I'm calling bullshit.

Show me who has done this. Find me a reputable gay voice who has stood up and said "hey our struggle is just like theirs."

So far, Republican propagandists and you are the only people I have seen making the claim, and repeating a slander incessantly does not make it true.

I am guessing the answer to that question will be no. So then my advice is, sit back, relax, and consider your own words for a moment. And then act upon the very words you are stating, and do not say that the civil rights movement for gays cannot be compaired to that of the civil rights movement for blacks.

Your words: don't try to compare one struggle with another, when you don't truelly understand the other.

If you aren't gay, then you truly cannot understand what it is like to be gay. And be gay in today's society.

Gays have been persecuted in this country just as long as blacks have been. Just because it has not been an 'issue' until recently doesn't diminish the suffering they have gone through. Just because the persecution of gays isn't as blatant as the persecution of blacks doesn't diminish the suffering they have gone through.

PERIOD. And the Gay Black man/woman struggle, is infinetely different from the struggle of their forefathers.

They were incarcerated in concentration camps and forced to wear a pink triangle as a badge. Some historians estimate that up to 200,000 gay men were killed by the Nazis (Source: Civilization in the West by Mark Kishlansky, Patrick Geary, Patricia O'Brien).

no. obviously not. but the struggle is the same: a struggle against discrimination and for the right to be recognised as full citizens of the US with the same rights and benefits as everybody else. that part is no different. it is WRONG to deny rights to someone because you feel they haven't suffered enough to 'earn' them. nobody 'earns' civil rights, they are conferred upon american citizens by the constitution. to deny rights is...well...wrong. unconstitutional.

Then what is it about. Soldiers have love for one another. They say Men who have been to war together have a love and a bond thats stronger than even the one with his wife etc. Does that make that man Gay. You spend time with your male friends, have fun and do whatever, and say whatever. Does that make you gay. People have feelings to do alot of things. Some act on them, some don't. Having SEXUAL relations, is the thing that seperates, besides that, what else is the difference. Therefore, to me, it's all about SEXUAL intamacy thing. Take that away, and you have two regular guys, doing whatever regular guys do.

The difference is, I have really no opinionn one way or the other as far as Gay marriage is concerned. The issue is just Gay marriage. IT's not about equal housing practices, equal treatment in the criminal justice system, hiring practices, etc. It's about Gay individuals wanting to get benifits from being considered married. Two different struggles in depth.

THe basic issue: Because i like to cut past all the rhetoric.
Individuals want to have sex with individuals of the same sex whom they love, and want the benifs that go along with being considered married. Simple as that really. I'm wrong right? it's much different from that?

The retarded black man who was lynched to a back of a pickup truck and was dragged until he was decapitated?

When authorities questioned his murderers they said they did it because he was gay.

Saying this issue is only about marriage is like saying Rosa Parks was only about sitting at the front of the bus.

now we're getting somewhere, see, the thing about sh*t is allot of times, deep down people feel some type of way about sh*t. They know it, but they don't want to acknowledge it. Exactly, it's not about benifits is it? It's about taking a LIFESTYLE CHOICE and making it mainstream. If thats what it is, thats what it is.

CHOICE IS THE KEY WORD.

it's about hate and the institutionalization of hate. I am straight, but I understand the pain of discrimination because I am female. I understand what it is like to be hated simply because you are a member of a certain group.

I do not believe sexual orientation is a choice and it is about much more than just sex. I don't understand how someone who claims to be familiar with the corrosive power of racial hatred can be so intolerant of another minority group.

The present Same-Sex marriage battle to the Holocaust.
Do you think someone can make that comparison?

I can't see how in any of my posts I seem intolerant.

I have simple said, it is more complex than to try and tie the two different struggles together and compare.

Compare the Same-Sex marriage legal fight to the Holocaust then.
Millions Died in Slavery and the middle passage alone.

Different histories. I am not intollerant, i just have consistently said not to marginalize one struggle by trying to compare the two, which have been dramatically different in depth. I cannot not be more clear.

Perhaps we need a constitutional convention to ban comparisons!?

:eyes:

the same-sex legal marriage fight to slavery, the holocaust, the middle passage, the native american genocide or anything like that. i, since i cannot speak for anybody else, am comparing it to the FIGHT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS that these groups went through AFTER the ends of these atrocities. the struggle is a CIVIL RIGHTS struggle, the issue is a CIVIL RIGHTS issue.

Gay people choose to be gay just like you chose to be black.

...again I ask ARE YOU GAY??? Again I am guessing your answer is NO! SO DO NOT TELL ME IT IS A CHOICE! HOW DARE YOU!!!!

Do not presume to know anything bucko.

And take my advice, STOP PREACHING TO THE CHOIR when you haven't the first notion of what it is like to be gay. Nor do you have the first idea of what us queers are asking for.

First of all, this guy is apart of the clergy. The clergy feels the way it feels.

Are you implying that the clergy has some sort of special right to hate others???

It's hard to know where to start.

First, no one has said that the black and gay experiences have been precisely the same. That's a straw man argument and you have been taken in by it.

What some people have said is that there are parallels--chiefly that both experiences have involved being singled out for disparate treatment and even violence based on irrational prejudice. This is a whole other thing than the straw man you're brandishing at us.

No, gays, as a group, were not sold into slavery (though presumably there were and are gay slaves). But gays have been subject to extreme punishments over the centuries, including burnings by the Inquisition and the like. One of the first people executed in what later became this country was a gay man, Richard Cornish, in 1624. We were officially mentally ill until 1973 and could be involuntarily committed solely for being gay. We could not hold government jobs until less than thirty years ago. They still behead us in Muslim theocracies. The streets are full of gay teenagers whose families have thrown them out because they are gay. In most states we still have no legal protections: my landlady can evict me today for being queer if she wants to, and my boss can fire me for the same reason, and I have no recourse in either case. Etc.

Are these the exact, precise equivalent to slavery, the Holocaust, the extermination of Native Americans, etc? No. But nobody said they were.

The notion that sexuality is purely a matter of what one does has no basis in fact or even common sense. Do you honestly think that people are asexual until they lose their cherries? Were you a sexless being until you first got it on with someone other than yourself, at which point you blossomed into a fully sexual creature? If a man dutifully screws his wife twice a week but is pretending the whole time that she's that guy from work he has the hots for, do you really think he's 100% heterosexual? According to your definition, he is.

The notion that any gay or lesbian person can hide their true status likewise has no basis in the real world. Sure, some people can, but do you honestly think no one suspects a nelly, middle-aged, unmarried guy of being gay unless he prints an announcement in the local paper? Do you think that no one suspects anything about those two stereotypically masculine women who share the apartment next door? Gimme a break--heterosexuals generally have pretty good gaydar, and homophobes have the best gaydar of all. And this is to say nothing of people who are transgendered--how in the hell are they supposed to closet themselves?

Finally, civil marriage is not "a religious thing," as is evidenced by the fact that Catholics, Jews, atheists, Zoroastrians, Muslims, Taoists, agnostics, Druids, Moonies, Episcopalians or what have you can all go down to the courthouse and get legally married, and my sexuality is not a "lifestyle choice" any more than yours is.

As for your feeling like you're at Free Republic right now, believe me, you're not the only one.

Thank you for taking the time to offer such well-put thoughts.

Cheers!

"The condition that is now called gay was then called queer. The operative word was faggot and, later, pussy, but those epithets really had nothing to do with the question of sexual preference: You were being told simply that you had no balls."
--James Baldwin

Why is this a blaring headline? Would a pro-marriage equality gathering like this get so much print, I wonder?

If the minister wants to be in denial and call it a lifestyle choice because that makes him feel more secure in his manhood, then that's one thing, but he needs to get the facts straight on this issue before fostering superstition and 'boogyman' stories. Inducing fear in otherwise reasonably minded people is no better than him being a drug pusher.

"If the KKK opposes gay marriage, I would ride with them," the Rev. Gregory Daniels told the New York Times.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mitchell/cst-nws-mitch14.html

Thats a stupid thing to say. Cause first of all, the KKK wouldn't let his ass ride with them whether he wanted to or not.

Tell that to Matthew Sheppard, Rev. James.

20,000 people are killed in this country. Those 20,000 people were killed for a variety of "reasons." That one incident isn't like the thousands of lynchings that took place.

It's a sad fact of life that people in this country hate people who are different from them, Whether the difference is racial, religious, ethnic, or sexual orientation.

Any and ALL hate-motivated killings should be condemned.

We should all live forever (cept' Pubbies, see them all in hell..... btw, hopefully from heaven). Kidding... regardless if that's how i may uh, kinda really feel right now.

This happens all the time. You just don't hear about it or have chosen to ignore it.

You can read the FBI hate crime statistics here:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#hate

It comes from the literal use of it, of gangs of thugs going out to bash people simply for being gay. Sorry, but the statements by these ministers are out of bounds and without merit.

Besides, while we're sitting around here arguing about whose victimization is most worthy of sympathy, the Right is busily proceeding with its plans to screw us all.

"Equal rights for me but not for thee." Or, to be even more blunt and crude, "I got mine, so screw the rest".

It's not racism, but it *IS* bigotry, just as cold, cruel, and stupid as any anti-Black bigotry that the KKK used.

To have sex with whoever you want to is already a right.

Second, "WE" haven't ever gotten ours. Look at the Bush admistration policy. IT's reganonmics all over again. Reganomics destroyed the black infrastructure. What did "we" get. If I want to have sex with old women, thats my own business. If I went around flaunting that practice, I would have to to deal with the consequences. Same with Poligamy.

How is having SEX with a particualar person, and wanting that to be recognized as normal, similar to the experience of Black people in this country. If anything, that fight is more akin to the fight of Larry Flynt and "Hustler" than it is to "ours." People are so quick to say "SEE, we're not the only bigots," to try and justify the past.
To try and say, "SEe, ya'll are no better than we are." This reverands opinion on Gay marriage is the same as slavery, and jim crow, and segration, and lynching, and systmatic distruction, and improsonment, etc. etc. "So everythings equal. fair and square." Thats basically what you're trying to say.

Larry Flint and Hustler. The struggle to make a practice or cultural taboo mainstream and legal. The FuCking way people are trying to tie that in with the Black experience.......

how can an oppressed class justify the oppression of another? That is what these anti-gay statutes are all about.

Not getting marriage benifits is oppression. Well friend, you have no idea of the true concept of OPPRESSION.

Thats a purely legal fight. The legal fight to make same-sex marriage legal.

Oppressed class: Black Clergy?

So in other words, any legal ammendment that any particular black groups come up with, say...... REPERATIONS, you agree with on legal grounds, otherwise you are justifying oppression. I mean, that IS the inverse. Oppression takes place from those in REAL power. WTF opinion a few people don't mean sh*t. People think allot of ways. It's John Ashcroft and GEEDUBYA that are the issue. Saying a couple special interest people represent a people, tell me, what the fuk is the term for that _________.

When are you going to realize it isn't just about marriage?

Did you know that my partner an American BORN citizen does not have the right to sponsor me for immigration to the United States because we happen to be a same sex couple?

Did you know that if my partner ended up in hospital in ICU tomorrow (God forbid) and I was able to get back into the United States, that unless her family grants me permission, I will not be allowed to see her?

Did you know that LGBT folk can be given the sack for being gay?

Did you know that my partner and I if we chose to adopt a child, that we could only do that in certain parts of the United States?

Did you know that my partner, even though she supported me for 15 months while I was living with her in the United States, that she wasn't able to claim her support for me on her taxation?

Did you know that my partner could have a job tomorrow with health benefits, but unless the HMO supports same sex relationships, she wouldn't be able to list me on her health care plan?

And I could go on and on, but I won't.

If you don't realize it is more than just bloody marriage, then I cannot help you.

Yeah! Us queers aren't living an oppressed life, my bloody ass!

What I'm seeing them say is "Marriage is not a civil right". Which means, I guess, they were cool with those laws banning interracial marriage, (because the court ruling overturning those laws said that marriage *was* a civil right).

After all, "How is having SEX with a particualar person, and wanting that to be recognized as normal" any different if the two people involved happen to a interracial couple? Or is it it the colour of the skin, but the gender that matters??

I won't deny that there's a long way to go before all races are equal. However, the right to marry is just as much, (and as valid) a civil right as any other. There's no reason I should have the right to marry my partner, and my friends shouldn't, just because I prefer the opposite gender and they prefer the same gender.

Please answer that question. Is a lifestyle choice that some people have made - to have sex with people of different races. It is morally reprehensible to a lot of people. Why should the rest of the country be forced to accept this lifestyle choice? Or is it different because blacks have suffered more and are thus entitled to more?

Well about halfway through at least, I answer you as far as your marriage question.

Honeslty though, you are really beggining to reach.
How you try to tie this all together is going to cause a tornado. Especially how you try to tie that last sentence together.

Listen though, as far as priority and REAL issues and struggle, marrying another race as far as importance on a scale of say 1,000,000 had to be around say 1 or two.

Blacks weren't even allowed to drink at the same waterfountain, betteryet (heehee) date a white woman. I mean that was absurd.

Enough on this topic. Back to those Bastard ASS Lying ass crooks in the white house.

I wish you the best friend. I just did not like having things compared that I feel are not even remotely semilar. There are some minor similiarities in a substaintual argument on some marginal nuaced points, but as a whole, if comparing a struggle, the struggle didn't begin yesterday.

BTW, there are a whole lot of Gay Blacks.

For those individuals in that class, to try and equate them trying to get marriage benifits, to the struggles of our forefathers would lead me to the same MOTHERF*CKING RESPONSE. BULLSHIT.

But if they said that they were struggling, I would say, I agree, much power to you. Just don't compare that SHIT MOTHERFUCKER CAUSE YOU CAN'T. Thats what I'd say to him, not you.

That's all. No hard feelings on my part.

I'm 28, male, and have never been aroused by the sight or proximity of a woman. I have been attracted sexually to the same sex from the age of ten.

Your position hinges upon homosexuality being a choice. It is not, any more than the color of your skin is a choice.

Oh, and if you're not gay, you really don't have the right to say otherwise.

on what being gay is really all about? :eyes:

Someone can tell me their struggle is similiar to mine, "not knowing

what being ______ is really all about."

How about we both say we don't truely understand, because we haven't

walked a mile in each others shoes, and therefore stop comparing,

and just be our own indivuals.

It should be easy for you to come up with some examples of gay people who say "hey our struggle is just like theirs," since, as you keep insisting, "everybody" is doing it. So let's see some evidence.

The notion that gays are running around announcing "hey our struggle is just like theirs" is a Republican propaganda strategy designed to wedge the Democratic base apart, and you have swallowed it wholeheartedly.

Has been the entire basis of all these posts. Starting with post 1.

Now it seems, most of the people who chose to argue have basically said. "How dare these (specific, 29 people mind you) black (clergy) people have any opinion whatsover on the topic of Homosexuality."

"They," Black people (NOT BLACK CLERGY, mind you), "struggled for Civil Rights, now we're struggling for Civil Rights (The comparison is made right their in the arguement holmes, Read between the lines, as if marriage benifits and SLAVERY, GOT DAMN SLAVERY are in way similar, under the General banner of "CIVIL RIGHTS" which accompanied many more things than the legal fight for marriage benifits).

The arguement once again, is that the people who have responded on this are apalled that any black person (Regardless of if these black people are special interest CLERGY individuals) would have the nerve to have an opinion on Same-Sex marriages. It's ok for the millions of other Right-wingers or the John Ashcrofs and Pat Robertsons and the President and all those Christian ministers, "But I'll be got Dammed if 29 black people (clergy or not) have sh*t to say about anything." That is the Fucking arguement, when you read between the lines.

Refute that and tell me I'm wrong. Come up with some new spin angle, and continue to patronize me with lines like, "and you have swallowed the propoganda wholeheartedly."

Peace to you and yours.

I have nothing against you, and that was a good question you asked.

they are "patronizing" you and being "condescending." How dare people get upset just because you dismiss their experiences, tell them that their sexuality is a "lifestyle choice," accuse them of spin and attempting to demean a noble struggle, etc. How can people be so unfair?

Again, since every homosexual in America has apparently taken to the airwaves to announce that "our struggle is just like theirs," to hear you tell it, it shouldn't be hard for you to come up with something more specific than "that's what this whole thread is about." There's nothing "patronizing" or "condescending" about asking someone to back up an unsupported assertion he has made repeatedly.

I and others here have taken great pains to point out to you that we do not consider the gay and black experiences just alike. I don't know how I can make it any more clear.

What some have said, and the reasoning underlying much of the discussion here, is that people who have been subject to irrational prejudice should recognize it when they see it.

That is a far different thing than what you keep insisting, absent any evidence, everyone is really saying.

Those preachers have every right in the world to their opinions, as do you. But likewise, those of us who disagree have every right to say why we think they, and you, are wrong. Free speech works both ways.

"There's nothing patronizing or condescending about asking someone to back up an UNSUPORTED assertion he has made repeatedly."

No there is not.
In the post you responded to, you know, post 89, I actually said "that was a good question." LOL

Secondly, saying that I swallowed the GOP propoganda wholeheardly, I guess is not condescending and patronizing. Which is basically saying that I do not have a mind of my own. I.E. a follower.

I asked you to refute those assertions, and you did not, you choose to focus on other points, because when I eliminated all the rhetoric and got to the gist of things, I doubt if you could refute. It is what it is.

"People who have been subject to irrational prejudice should recognize it when they see it," LOL, once again, who do you mean, BLack people, OR THOSE 29 CLERGY MEMBERS WHO HAPPEN TO BE BLACK.

It sure does (free speech). I was trying to break bread with you with that last post. You seem intelligent and articulate and we both have our own views on the world. I mean no harm to anyone that means me no harm. How many times on these posts have BLACK PEOPLE in general, been substituted for those 29 black CLERGY (CLERGY), HUH, be real.

our struggle isn't "just like theirs."

I don't completely agree with the comparison. There are paralells, but on the whole, the issues involved are very, very different.

The effects, on the other hand, are very similar. In that way, the issues are related.

It exists in many forms, from literal slavery to psychological slavery.

Evil often disguises itself in the diaphanous robes of virtue. That's what this issue is about. It's about the evil of external control over free will; external denial of the opportunities afforded to those approved by "everyone else."

I grew up with getting my face shoved in the dirt by 'everyone else.' I've learned that as a gay man that "my lot in life" is at the bottom of society as far as society is concerned. That wasn't chosen by me, any more than being gay was; that was chosen by others outside of me, people who know me not and thus cannot fathom what makes me who I am.

To say I do not deserve the benefits of marriage handed to those who marry the opposite sex is to say I am somehow inferior, unqualified to enjoy the benefits under the law legal marriage provides and thus denying me some of my citizenship, my Americanism, my birthright.

To say I cannot marry who I love is to say, to me, I am somehow less human, less deserving, less true. It dehumanizes me and places me upon a lower social scaffold than so-called 'normal' people reside upon.

How long will it be before those like me are imprisoned, or worse? I can't say. I daren't speculate. My worst nightmares have generally come true in my life, and I don't wish to give voice to this one.

I'm a target; I know it. I cannot walk down the street without being aware that someone there may know I'm gay and decide to attack. I'm considering a CCW license for that very reason.

In this society, being gay endangers one's life. This only begs the question: why would we choose it.

Obviously, we would not. Choice shouldn't even be part of the debate, yet the topic persists, seemingly inviolate- perhaps because the idea is advocated by those who will not see.

I pray for my future, for those like me, and the possibility that simple human kindness and dignity will win in the end.

I am rapidly losing hope.

...you can sit here and tell me that being gay is all about choice, without knowing what being gay is all about.

my postal supervisor telling me how to run a machine they've never used.

That kind of hypocrisy is everywhere.

does that mean...

It must be very discouraging to hear news like this and to see the ignorance that is still very much a part of our society regarding GLBT issues. God knows that homosexuality is not a choice. I wish these preachers would get the message. Who would choose something that would make you the subject of so much hatred?

For you young people, he was a brilliant African-American writer and poet, and one of the strongest leaders of the Civil Rights movement in the 60s. He was also Gay.

I'm not anti-Gay. If you choose to do whatever you do, and you're not harming anyone else, SH9t, I say go for it. G_D judges me the same way he's going to judge all of us. So my "morality" and whoever elses is just their own business. If i want to spank my monkey till the sun comes up, well its my right to do so.

Their are all kinds of advocates and lobbyist advocating all kinds of things. Some things you and I may agree with, some things you may not.

My only issue is, fight the good fight. Don't marginalize my SH*T, do yours, live well, and be happy.

Who is "marginalizing (your) SH*T"?

Are that group of idiot black clergy whose message belittles the fight for civil rights for any minority group. You should be directing your anger towards them, not us, not gays.

i'm sick of these religous wack jobs.
this is about equal protection and equal rights under the damn law.

This is just unpleasant to see. Bigotry does cross all boundaries. So much for judging folks by character. If you were born gay, you're gonna be judged by that alone, according to these boneheads.

These guys don't get that they're falling for Georgie's divide and conquer strategy.

Pitiful. Just pitiful.

"When the homosexual compares himself to the black community, he doesn't know what suffering is," said the Rev. Clarence James, an African-American studies professor at Temple University.

So, I wonder if the Reverend James thinks that an African-American homosexual might "know what suffering is".

It isn't like it's the naacp or the rainbow coalition.

G_D dammed, seems like somebody was finally paying attention. I wrote that sh*t way up on post 9 or something.

Shame on them for diminishing another minority's struggle.

have the audacity (as countless others do) to believe that marriage should be made up of one man and one woman. Those homophobes! They probably also think that if God wanted same sex marriage, he would have created Adam and Steve! <sarcasm off>

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

Remember, they are masters of the wedge issue. Nader is strong enough, without any more of us falling for these oh-so-obvious tactics of division.

It should be painfully obvious to the Gay community by now, there is no momentum in a political sense for legislation to guarantee their rights, at the Federal level.

It will have to come through the courts...and I think it will-given time. And I know you have waited too long already, but reality is the realm of the possible, not the impossible.

The quickest way to guarantee ALL of our rights, is to win in November, gain back both Houses of Congress, and pack the courts with judges wearing a human face.

These guy fell for it. Hook, line and sinker. Un-frigging-believable.

If they'd read their history, they should have known better.

These guys missed the boat, on many angles. They fell for Georgie's obvious divide and conquer ploy.

I love the fact that the very Christian, Nigerian-American boss of some colleagues took four of his employees and their partners/spouses out to dinner after they got married, here in Portland.

That's community. That's what marriage is all about!

"There are more scriptural reasons to oppose homophobia than to oppose homosexuality."
-- Rev. Dr. Professor John B. Cobb, Jr.

"The question is not one of acceptance, but one of forgiveness. It is not whether you will accept us, but whether we will find it in our hearts to forgive you."
-- James Baldwin

"Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of Creation speaks and declares, 'I have looked out on everything I have made and behold it (is) very good.' (Gen. 1.31.) The word of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world."
-- Bishop John Selby Spong, Episcopalian

motivaes peoole to call me wetback