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Drone Strike Said to Kill at Least 8 in PakistanBy PIR ZUBAIR SHAH

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-11 10:11 PM
Original message
Drone Strike Said to Kill at Least 8 in PakistanBy PIR ZUBAIR SHAH
Source: New York Times

Drone Strike Said to Kill at Least 8 in PakistanBy PIR ZUBAIR SHAH
Published: May 6, 2011

Missiles believed to have been fired by an American drone killed at least eight suspected militants and wounded four in Pakistan’s tribal regions on Friday, according to a Pakistani security official and a resident in the area of the strike. Later, seven more bodies were recovered, bringing the death toll to 15, the resident said.

The attack was the first by a drone since the killing of Osama bin Laden, the leader of Al Qaeda, in an American helicopter-borne raid early Monday in Abbottabad, a small garrison city about a two-hour drive from the capital, Islamabad.

The drone campaign, which is run by the C.I.A., has long been a sore point with the Pakistani public for what is widely considered its violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty. The government has publicly condemned the strikes, while privately tolerating them in an arrangement with the United States, which flies drones from a base inside Pakistan.

The Bin Laden raid has put new pressure on that alliance, however, coming after the killing of two Pakistanis by a C.I.A. contractor in January, and has inflamed the sovereignty issue still further.



Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/07/world/asia/07drone.html?_r=1&ref=world
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-11 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. both bin laden and the CIA kill people using flying weapons nt
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-11 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Killed 8 "suspected" militants.... but what if...
What if they happened to be innocent women and children? What exactly is a militant?

Note to our brilliant leaders: Pakistan has Nukes.
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cosmicone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. There will be more drone strikes in the coming months
as we use addresses from Osama's computers and level them.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Lovely sentiment, that
Not.

If you think fighting terror with terror is going to make things better, you're in for quite the big, sad surprise.
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cosmicone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Did I say I wished for them or supported them? n/t
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. You have in the past
:shrug:
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. U.S. Drone Attack Kills 15 in Pakistan Tribal Area
Source: Associated Press

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP) — The U.S. carried out its first drone attack in Pakistan since Osama bin Laden's death in an American raid this week, killing 15 people in a hail of missiles near the Afghan border Friday, Pakistani intelligence officials said.

The strike targeted a vehicle suspected of carrying foreign militants in the North Waziristan tribal area, an al-Qaida and Taliban stronghold that has been subject to frequent missile attacks, said the officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.

The aircraft fired eight missiles at the vehicle as it drove near a roadside restaurant, killing at least 15 people, including foreign militants, said the officials. At least one civilian died when the missiles damaged the restaurant and a nearby home, they said.

It was unclear whether intelligence gleaned from the U.S. commando raid that killed bin Laden on Monday played a part in the drone strike.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/05/06/world/asia/AP-AS-Pakistan-Missile-Attack.html
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I can't help but wonder what these strikes are netting us
Edited on Fri May-06-11 11:53 AM by inademv
I mean, wouldn't it be an effort against our cause by continuing to go about blowing people up on a daily basis like this?

Additionally, the repression of people with grievances against the powers that be kinda smacks as a very fascist approach to what they are, in a very Orwellian slant, calling counter-terrorism (isn't what we're doing the definition of terrorism?).
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. TPTB do not like those questions
How can the greatest country in the Universe be terrorists, #1
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I agree...
Seriously, my first reaction to this is "what FOR?"

this is just ridiculous, we need to just walk away, now...there is no justifiable reason for us being there.
We can bring in peacecorps or something to help rebuild and build goodwill if that is possible, but that is about the only thing we have left.

It's time to say, "okay, thanks, got the guy, sorry for blowing up your people...buh-bye"

can we just keep hammering this till our troops are home?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Effective terror groups depend on a few skilled individuals
Leaders, planners, bomb makers, financial experts, logisticians, computer experts, etc. Experienced terrorists with those skills are very rare - eliminate them and it doesn't matter how many angry young men there are, the ability of the group as a whole to conduct effective and sophisticated terror attacks diminishes exponentially. You are left with inexperienced people that make mistakes and are easier to catch - it is like playing the freshman team instead of the varsity. It also means the terror group is constantly reorganizing, which also reduces it effectiveness.

This was the lesson learned by the Israelis - they went after the skill people and attacks in Israel fell to nothing. America applied the same lessons in Iraq and again the attacks fell to nearly nothing. The only difference here is that the terrorist are hiding in Pakistan because they know they will die anywhere else - so drones are the only way to kill them.

I think it is a very effective way to counter terrorism. And don't forget one thing - Islamic terrorist bombs have killed a hell of a lot more of their fellow Muslims than our drones - look at the actions of al Queda in Irag as a good example.

In 2005, AQI largely focused on executing high-profile and coordinated suicide attacks, claiming responsibility for numerous attacks which were primarily aimed at Iraqi civilians. The group launched attacks against voters during the Iraqi legislative election in January, a combined suicide and conventional attack on the Abu Ghraib prison in April, and the coordinated suicide attacks outside the Sheraton Ishtar and Palestine Hotel in Baghdad in October.<20> In July, al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the kidnapping and execution of Ihab Al-Sherif, Egypt's envoy to Iraq.<36><37> A July 2005 three-day series of suicide attacks, including the Musayyib marketplace bombing, left at least 150 people dead.<38> Al-Zarqawi claimed responsibility for the September single-day series of more than a dozen bombings in Baghdad, including a September 14 bomb attack, which killed about 160 people (mostly unemployed Shi'ite workers).<39> They claimed responsibility for series of mosque bombings which killed at least 74 people the same month in Khanaqin.<40>

The attacks blamed on or claimed by al-Qaeda in Iraq continued to increase in 2006 (see also the list of major insurgent attacks in Iraq).<23> In one of the incidents, two U.S. soldiers (Thomas Lowell Tucker and Kristian Menchaca) were captured, tortured and beheaded by the ISI; in another, four Russian embassy officials were abducted and subsequently executed. Iraq's al-Qaeda and its umbrella groups were blamed for multiple attacks targeting the country's Shia Muslim population, some of which AQI claimed responsibility for. The U.S. claimed the group was at least one of the forces behind the wave of chlorine bombings in Iraq which affected hundreds of people (albeit with few fatalities) through the series of crude chemical warfare attacks between late 2006 and mid-2007.<41> During 2006, several key members of the AQI were killed or captured by American and allied forces; this included al-Zarqawi himself, killed on June 7, 2006, his spiritual adviser Sheik Abd-Al-Rahman, and the alleged "number two" deputy leader, Hamid Juma Faris Jouri al-Saeedi. The group's leadership was then assumed by the man called Abu Hamza al-Muhajir,<42> who was really the Egyptian militant Abu Ayyub al-Masri.<43>

The high-profile attacks linked to the group continued through early 2007, as the AQI-led Islamic State claimed responsibility for attacks such as the March assassination attempt on Sunni Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq Salam al-Zaubai, the April Iraqi Parliament bombing, and the May capture and subsequent execution of three American soldiers. Also in May, ISI leader al-Baghdadi was declared to have been killed in Baghdad, but his death was later denied by the insurgents (later, al-Baghdadi was even declared by the U.S. to be non-existent). There were conflicting reports regarding the fate of al-Masri. From March to August, coalition forces fought the Battle of Baqubah as part of the largely successful attempts to wrest the Diyala Governorate from AQI-aligned forces. Through 2007, the majority of the suicide bombings targeting civilians in Iraq were routinely identified by the military and government sources as being the responsibility of al-Qaeda and its associated groups, even when there was no claim of responsibility (as was in the case of the 2007 Yazidi communities bombings, which killed some 800 people in the deadliest terrorist attack in Iraq to date).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_in_Iraq

If the people have a grievance, it is against al Queda and other such groups for showing such a willingness to kill them on such a large scale.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. You must be dizzy ...
from all the spinning to satisfy your blood lust.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. No - I just don't have a cartoon view of the world
terrorists are irrational - unless you really think there is a rational reason for murdering innocent civilians. That being the case, killing them before they kill us makes some sense. They certainly won't go away if we simply ignore them.
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. I have issue with your logic here
By that thought, would you have American citizens who plan a murder summarily killed (read: blown up including their house and anyone happening to be there at the time)?

Would you have an American citizen who THINKS about planning a murder similarly killed?

How far down the chain of action would you take this? Do you understand that there are solutions to the "potential" terrorist situation other than dropping bombs on them?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Don't' be ridiculous
Edited on Sat May-07-11 01:17 PM by hack89
If someone belongs to a group with a history of killing Americans and there is evidence that he participated in those acts and is actively involved in the planning for more of those acts, they need to be stopped. If they can be arrested, that is best. But if they can't be arrested then killing them is a reasonable response.

There are no obstacles to arresting American criminals (or suspects) in America or most countries - we arrest or extradite. There are some places where that is impossible - parts of Pakistan, Sudan, Yemen, all the other failed states of the world.

Most US anti-terrorism efforts are handled as criminal investigations - our work and collaboration with police forces and intelligence services around the world are testament to that. The Tribal Areas of Pakistan are simply one of those places in the world where there is no effective government and no effective law enforcement.
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. So arrest all members of the KKK?
You are being a very silly person if you are suggesting that any attempts are being made to use legal law enforcement solutions to deal with alleged potential terrorists. Further more, I put forth that we stop referring to the individuals being bombed in Pakistan as "terrorists" and instead refer to them as "alleged combatants" because no evidence has been supplied that the had intent to carry out attacks on civilians.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. If there is evidence they have committed
or are planning to commit crimes? Sure. Just membership - no. But if the group they belong to goes on a killing spree, they are going to get a lot of attention. If they run and go into hiding, ignoring all requests to surrender, I will assume the worst.

I don't think you have been paying attention to the world since 911 - surely you are aware of all the terrorist cells in Europe that were broken up without military action?

We don't know what evidence is being used - I suspect the means by which it is gathered is classified which is why we don't see it. As for those "alleged combatants"
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. There is as much evidence that they are as the Pakistanis being bombed
the KKK is a terrorist organization that has a long history of torturing and killing American citizens.

There has been no evidence presented that the Pakistanis are members of a terrorist organization or were actively planning any attacks on American assets much less civilians. And if they are going to continue extrajudicial killings in my name as an American citizen I damn well expect to know why.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Well, send a registered letter to the CIA and Pentagon
I am sure they will consider your request.
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Have sent letters and petitions
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. As they are probably blind to the religious oppression of the state...
any injustices of al-Queda are more than likely dwarfed by the constant drone strikes by the US. I'm wondering why people over here are surprised that they see the US as more of a threat.

If you want people to throw off oppressive theocratic shackles, they must be free to engage in introspection. That can't effectively happen when under siege from an outside force (case in point, the US itself being shoved under a christofascist thumb ever since 9/11).
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Al Queda killed tens of thousands of their fellow Muslims
Edited on Sat May-07-11 12:43 PM by hack89
remember all those car bombings in Iraq? Our drone strikes have killed a fraction of what their car bombs and IEDs have killed.

Why do you think radical Islamic fundamentalist are being marginalized in the ongoing Arab revolutions? It is because they are hated and despised for their enthusiasm in slaughtering their fellow Muslims.

And I don't understand the christofascist thumb remark - any real examples to share?
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. The countries that have managed to have those revolutions are
ones that haven't been under attack by the United States or outside forces.

As for the christofascists, their attacks are exemplified by virtually all conservative politicians this current year so far. Directly following 9/11 and the passage of the PATRIOT act, the Bush administration tried its hardest, and largely succeeded, in dividing the discourse and identity of the country into either a jingoist/christian evangelical/pseudo-patriot side and calling all its detractors socialists/communists/terrorists. The recent Republican encroachment on women's rights is only the most recent example out there but will serve well enough for the purpose of this discussion. Their entire justification is 100% religious in nature.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Civilian casualites result in radicalization, there is no doubt about that.
And even if you only go by Western sources and their lower casualty numbers, a quarter of the people killed in these drone attacks are civilians.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. They are netting us more militants, so they can justify more drone attacks, and so on.
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godai Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Great...I'm expecting a number of strikes based on OBL intel n/t
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Muskypundit Donating Member (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Like... really?
They chose to fire the missles when the target vehicles got closest to a civilian building? I mean... comeon.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. If we are bombing Pakistan why are we giving them billions of dollars?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. we're not bombing them, we're liberating them
they should be covering our drones with flowers and celebrating!

...

:sarcasm:
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. Because we are stupid. Nt
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
26. "suspected" militants..ie they could be innocents. But no one cares.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Well, no one except their families...
But then again, they're "nobodies", right?

At least you can take some comfort in knowing that not everybody blithely ignores this, but it's small comfort, isn't it?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Last week someone asked me if I thought Iraqi lives were wortha
Edited on Sat May-07-11 02:32 PM by EFerrari
as much as American lives.

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