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John Demjanjuk found guilty of helping kill Jews in Nazi death camp

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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:52 AM
Original message
John Demjanjuk found guilty of helping kill Jews in Nazi death camp
Source: msnbc.com news services

MUNICH — A German court found John Demjanjuk guilty on Thursday of helping to kill 27,900 Jews at the Nazi death camp Sobibor during the Holocaust.

The Munich court sentenced the 91-year-old to five years in prison as an accessory to mass murder as a guard at the Polish camp during World War Two. Defense attorneys had said during the 18-month trial they would appeal any guilty verdict.

Earlier Demjanjuk rejected an offer from judges at the Munich state court to make a final statement ahead of a verdict. Lying in a bed wearing sunglasses and speaking through an interpreter, he replied with a simple "no."

Judges also rejected defense requests to seek more evidence in the trial, which has lasted nearly 18 months.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43002291/ns/world_news-europe/
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MissHoneychurch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good news n/t
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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. 91 in for 5 more...
Sounds like a life sentence - good!
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forty6 Donating Member (849 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. If he had been tried in Texas, they would sentence him to death
and the federal appeals would not be exhausted before natural death would take over, and then in Texas, they would put his dead body in an electric chair anyway, just to make sure.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. WWII ended 66 years ago.
"There is no evidence Demjanjuk committed a specific crime. Instead he was charged with accessory to murder for the number of people who died in the time span he was allegedly a Sobibor camp guard on the theory that if he was there, he was a participant — the first time such a legal argument has been made in German courts.

"In the 1980s, Demjanjuk stood trial in Israel accused of being the notoriously brutal guard "Ivan the Terrible" at the Treblinka extermination camp. He was convicted, sentenced to death — then freed when an Israeli court overturned the ruling, saying the evidence showed he was the victim of mistaken identity."

I'm dubious as to the purpose of this prosecution in 2011.

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Fuddnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. The prosecution has been going on since the '70s.
Delays, appeals, the Ivan fiasco all dragged it out.

And he wasn't prosecuted for just "being there". The Ukrainian Guard units who worked the extermination camps were given special treatment for their service to the Nazis.

My mother worked with the guy at the Ford plant in Brookpark, Ohio in the '70s. He blended in well. She said you would never know it from talking to him.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Dunno. Seems to fit the definition of accessory (aka aider and abettor).
Edited on Thu May-12-11 07:10 AM by No Elephants
And I think forever is an appropriate statute of limitations for killing 12 million people, imprisoning even more, including aiding and abetting.

"Aiding and Abetting/Accessory


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A criminal charge of aiding and abetting or accessory can usually be brought against anyone who helps in the commission of a crime, though legal distinctions vary by state. A person charged with aiding and abetting or accessory is usually not present when the crime itself is committed, but he or she has knowledge of the crime before or after the fact, and may assist in its commission through advice, actions, or financial support. Depending on the degree of involvement, the offender's participation in the crime may rise to the level of conspiracy.

For example, Andy draws a floor plan of a bank, knowing of Dan's intention to rob it. After Dan commits the robbery, Alice agrees to let him store the stolen money at her house. Both Andy and Alice can be charged with aiding and abetting, or acting as accessories to the robbery"

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/aiding_abetting_accessory.html




This link is better, but longer than 4 paragraphs and I don't want to edit arbitrarily--
http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/accessory.html
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. I don't think there's a statute of limitations on working at a death camp. (nt)
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Would that include the cooks?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
4. A personal hero of Pat Buchanan.
More of a love story.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Guess they haven't seen the thread yet?
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. would we have the good fortune if this happened
to Bush? if only.
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Yon_Yonson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. My thoughts exactly ... the whole Bush Administration in the dock at The Hague
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
9. buh bye...
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. My guess
Demjanjuk was a leading activist in the 'not pro israel' direction, in his local area.

So his opposition set him up.

But then I am always wrong (perhaps).
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Pernicious...eom
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The Israeli Supreme Court declared him innocent
So I think your guess is wrong.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. They declared him innocent of being a particular individual, nothing more. (nt)
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Which was the charge he was facing in Israel
Indicating that the supposition in the post I was replying to is baseless.
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. NY Times: Demjanjuk is out on appeal
Edited on Thu May-12-11 01:36 PM by alp227
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/13/world/europe/13nazi.html

He deserves to die in prison for participating in one of history's most vile events.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes he does.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
17. Court? Trial?
What's with all this nonsense? "Everybody" said Demjanjuk was a very bad person. Why not just shoot him in the head and be done with it? Weren't the Germans worried about potential problems with trying Demjanjuk? It could have been a circus! There could have been terrorist attacks! Aaaaaahhhh!

Don't they know how bad they're making the United States look when they do things like this? What kind of ally does that? Maybe it's time for another drone attack . . . ?
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Pakistan could have arrested Bin Laden and cooperated with others
in how to deal with him.

if GErmany had allowed this guy to be free and he was continuing to declare war and attack innocent people i would have no problem with taking him out either.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. Good!
:nuke:
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. Only he knows if he really did it at this point.
Edited on Thu May-12-11 04:45 PM by Xithras
He was originally tried and convicted in Israel based on Soviet-provided identification documents that were later clearly shown to be KGB forgeries, and witnesses who identified him as Ivan the Terrible. He was freed many years later when a large number of other witnesses testified that Ivan was actually someone else, and that some of the documents provided by the Soviet's had been faked to implicate him. It turned out that the prosecuting witnesses were simply wrong. Mistaken identity.

One of the items that wasn't directly addressed when it was overturned by the the Israeli Supreme Court was his ID card, and that was the basis of the current belief that he "probably" worked at Sobibor. Our own FBI, when it examined the ID card in 1985, determined that the ID card was "probably fabricated" (the record of that determination was classified until earlier this year and wasn't available to US courts when he was fighting extradition). German forensic scientists, when they examined it, said that it "looked real", but that they were unable to actually date the paper for some reason, and couldn't determine whether it was actually printed in the 1940's, or whether it was a 1980's reproduction.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110412/ap_on_re_eu/eu_demjanjuk_fbi_doubts

The think you have to remember about Demjanjuk is that he was a Ukranian anti-communist who spoke out against the Soviet leadership. The KGB took special interest in discrediting people like him.

He may have done it, or he may be a victim of a Cold War era smear campaign. I don't really think there's any way for us to know at this point...it's been too long, and the "facts" have been too muddied by people with agendas.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
26. Sentenced to five years and then released due to old age.
Mercy shown to one who showed no mercy.
I find the sentence and its mitigation just.
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chatnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
27. Um, but the key piece of evidence is thought to be faked according to the FBI
From "AP Exclusive: FBI thought Demjanjuk evidence faked":

The newly declassified FBI field office report, obtained by The Associated Press, casts doubt on the authenticity of a Nazi ID card that is the key piece of evidence in allegations that Demjanjuk served as a guard at the Sobibor death camp in occupied Poland.



The FBI agents argued that the Soviets had an interest in faking the documents as part of a campaign to smear anti-communist emigres. Those conclusions contradict the findings of another branch of the Department of Justice, the Office of Special Investigations, or OSI, which was in charge of the overall Demjanjuk probe.



It is unclear whether prosecutors in the U.S. and Israel knew about it.



The March 4, 1985, report, on FBI letterhead and marked “SECRET,” says the Cleveland office’s investigation “strongly indicated” a Soviet scheme to discredit “prominent emigre dissidents speaking out publicly and/or leading emigre groups in opposition to the Soviet leadership in the USSR.”



The defense has argued throughout the trial that the ID card is a clever fake, noting that Demjanjuk’s height and eye color don’t match and alleging there are indications the photograph was taken from old identity papers and glued to the card.



The OSI in the past has been accused of withholding evidence that could have cleared Demjanjuk.



In a 1993 review of the American denaturalization hearing that led to his extradition, a federal U.S. appeals panel concluded that the OSI engaged in “prosecutorial misconduct that seriously misled the court.”



A Department of Justice report from 2008 made public last November said the OSI’s handling of the Demjanjuk case was “the greatest mistake it ever made.”



The FBI report accuses the Soviets of anonymously feeding names of emigres to the United States as suspected Nazis. The OSI would then ask the Soviet Union for evidence from captured Nazi records, and “the KGB produces a record purporting to tie the accused with the commission of Nazi atrocities,” it said.

“In court, the KGB officer thereupon ‘shows’ the documents to the judge but does not permit the documents to be presented in evidence or to be otherwise copied,” it adds.

By the time the field report was sent to FBI headquarters in Washington, Demjanjuk had already had his citizenship revoked and was facing extradition to Israel.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110413/ap_on_re_eu/eu_demjanjuk_fbi_doubts/


He's already spent nearly 8 yrs prison in Israel after which the Israeli supreme court over-turned the verdict due to mistaken identity. Sounds a bit of a witch-hunt to me.
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