‘Worrying gap between US army, civilians’

Source: Agence France-Presse

‘Worrying gap between US army, civilians’
Published: May 22, 2011

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US military's top officer warned Saturday about a worrisome disconnect between civilians and troops, saying soldiers are becoming isolated from the rest of American society.

Speaking to graduating cadets at the US military academy at West Point, Admiral Mike Mullen said that Americans appreciate the military but do not fully understand soldiers' lives or the sacrifices they have made in wartime. "Our work is appreciated, of that I am certain. There isn’t a town or a city I visit where people do not convey to me their great pride in what we do," Mullen said, according to a text of the speech.

"But I fear they do not know us. I fear they do not comprehend the full weight of the burden we carry or the price we pay when we return from battle," he said.

"This is important, because a people uninformed about what they are asking the military to endure is a people inevitably unable to fully grasp the scope of the responsibilities our Constitution levies upon them," he said.


Read more: http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/22-May-2011/Worrying-gap-between-US-army-civilians

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Bring them home from Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Korea, etc. Most of what our military performs today does absolutely nothing to protect the Constitution.

honor the Constitution.

Mullen is right because serving in uniform changes your perspective. When you join and can't quit just because you want to, it's like no other profession in the US.

...these fucked-up pointless wars. And that's just how the bomb-makers love it- unless people have skin in the game, they could give less of a shit and that means nobody challenges the wars and the dollars keeeeeeeep on rollin' in!

PB

to it. With the new idea of unending war that has no goal other than making money for the multinational corporations it is the pentagon that is losing touch with the people. Our constitution did not ask us to support the robber barons of the world and that is what we are doing. I think what he sees as a separation between the people and the soldiers is more a separation on the willingness to go to war for a lie.

Congress gave up its Constitutional duty as to declaring wars when it enacted the War Powers Resolution and the never ending War on Terror Resolution.

Constitution, shmonstitution. Only gets in the way, making Congress and the President keep finding ways around it. It's an outdated hindrance. Thanks to various Presidents and their complicit Congresses, so eager to show their jingoisim in the face of "threats," we've moved on.

The oath to defend and protect the Constitution is now like the clerk of the Supreme Court declaring "God bless this honorable Court." IOW, it's pure tradition. It has no real meaning anymore.

Egypt? or Syria?

communities. Just because they served in the military we're suppose to yield our constitutional rights to them for some conspiratorial impropriety?

I don't get it. If they went overseas to fight for my liberty, why is it okay for them to feel they have a right to infringe on my rights once they get back? I respect their volunteer service. But is it really voluntary when they think they've earned privileges that put them above the law?

What are you talking about?

They sling their military service around to promote themselves, and in my time it would have meant something. Military service would have meant integrity and fairness. But by today's standards its used for the opposite reason, to create a teflon coat so that a community leader can do all sorts of unethical things and we're suppose to look the other way.

Best example is Rangel. There's no question that he got caught doing some pretty unethical things. Of all people, a Republican came to his aid saying that Rangel's indiscretions should be forgiven because of what he endured in the military. That's how the Republicans roll. They have created a hierarchy that allows some of them to ascend to positions of leadership and get away with some unethical things--circumvent the law.

This is people-law and it creates calculated entitlements which are undermining the foundation of our society. I don't necessarily blame it on the military serviceman, as I do the community that encourages this kind of bartering. (i.e. good ole boy networks)

You're unfairly painting with a broad brush against military personnel, some of whom have had their lives shattered as a result of unnecessary wars. I think you are way off base.

I respect our military men. But if they're going to fight for my liberty when they're overseas, they should at least respect it when they're back home. I live in a good ole boy community so the corruption of just about everyone is evident everywhere.

Church, military and business ideals, it all gets twisted once the good ole boys get their hands on it. Someone has to say it before people begin to recognize the hypocrisy.

Of course, it's easier for me to knock sacred cows because I grew up Catholic and once revered priests. We all know how that ended up.

I know plenty of service members and veterans (majority of whom are Democrats) and what I know of them doesn't even mesh with what you're talking about.

once they learn how military leaders flaunt their military experience to make it difficult to criticize them for making decisions that would slap another man with a civil lawsuit.

Especially government jobs. In many places they are required to take the veteran even if they are not the most qualified or the best fit in the work group. In some cases it has been a disaster for the people I know. Mostly it's just unfair to all the other qualified people in this day and age. I do not believe that the preference system should do anything more than get you a job interview.

they begin to bend the rules to pay back the favor. A true civil servant would not trade their integrity for anything or anybody. I use to think the same thing applied to military people. However, there are two qualities a military man has that can make him vulnerable in a good ole boy system. One is that they are very mission oriented, and the second is that they are loyal to their buddies. When they bond with crooked good ole boys, neither quality works well for the public.

Most I knew are from working class backgrounds and are in no position to use their service to an advantage like that. My best friend while I was in is now working at a Taco Bell in El Paso. Myself, am unemployed(other than the times I get sent out to job sites through day labor but am starting school next month). Arizona, especially Maricopa County's economy is in shambles though.

I agree people like that deserve criticism. I try not to mention I served, much less went to war, but I know I brought up when certain topics come up so I can share my experience like I am doing in this thread.

network in place. And when they're pulled in, the thing the rest of us see plainly, is that they don't get anything from this network where the network doesn't find some benefit for themselves.

So, yes, this doesn't apply to everyone.

What do we in the military do to impede your Constitutional Rights?

joining the army because they are so poor or because they grow up loving guns but who would return home silent...so that perpetual neocon war could continue?

And created a separate warrior underclass?

from basically send our economically conscripted "defense" forces around the world to fight unwanted and unnecessary wars. The population as a whole really doesn't want our military to fight, but has little power to effect the decisions taken to deploy them. So we can cheer our boys and girls in their unwanted endeavors or we can get depressed over our powerlessness. Disconnecting is just another coping mechanism. Yeah, I know it's our job to protest these wrongs, and we do (did). How many were on the streets before Iraq? That sure changed their mind. Those are the factors I see as isolating the military.
:shrug:

that ordinary American people make to keep the military in its toys.

I also don't think that the political and military leadership in this country appreciate the sacrifices that the families of the lower level soldiers make when their spouses, parents and children join the military and are sent to war zones.

What "sacrifices"? Are we rationing fuels? Meatless, wheatless, sweetless days? Blackouts and bomb drills? Conscription? Knitting blanket squares and rolling bandages?

It's true, the average citizen who hasn't served in the military, especially during a time of war, cannot comprehend it. No, I never did, I know many who have and whenever we speak of it, they become very quiet and don't wish to continue. It's because, as we have heard from learned minds over the centuries, war is a damned ugly thing. No one wants to think about, let alone talk about the terrible things they've seen or had to do during service.

No, speaking as someone who has not served in the military I cannot comprehend the full weight of the burden or the price paid when a member returns from battle. On the other hand, I do express my gratitude and respect whenever I have occasion to do so. If they didn't do what they do, I couldn't do what I do. If not for young men and women who willing put themselves in harms way, we could not last without a draft, simply keeping our military capable as a defensive force in the modern age is amazingly expensive.

I never voted for these moronic, wasteful, damned awful wars. I protested against them, for all the good it did. I will not hold a grudge though, against those who serve their Nation's military in spite of those things or even because of them. There's plenty of corruption and greed among the higher ups in the military, I'm convinced of that - always happens when there's too much money involved. There's a lot of shit that happens that shouldn't, it is the leaders, both military and civilian, in this case, that we must hold accountable.

The young men and women in our military who have bled and died in these wars did not start them and do not carry them out alone. They follow orders as any decent, disciplined military force does.

If you want to blame someone for the disconnect though, Mullen, I'd say blame the damned politicians who got us into this mess to begin with. Not the civilians who can't understand. Of course we can't. That doesn't mean we aren't grateful. If Mullen and those like him want to help us understand - perhaps they should start telling us what's really going on over there. Tell us, show us, whatever. Because I would like to understand so I can do what I can to help. I cannot understand something though, that is entirely foreign to me and that is concealed by lies, ignorance and clever manipulations of the truth.

I was born on an Air Force base, grew up as a military brat, served in the military, and regularly send care packages to troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. But most people? They have no fucking CLUE.

..a living wage and you have to be on a 5-year waiting list to join the military, since it will be reduced to half of what it is now.

If you think we go to war for oil, just wait until food and water become harder and harder to obtain. Big business has for years been buying up the "farmable" land in Africa and elsewhere. And, our ability to wage war has far outpaced our ability to evolve into people who figure stuff out and avoid war.

I have served and I realize that a West Point Graduation speech is well vetted.

I will heed the warning.

ETA. Lest that be misinterpreted, it's very heartfelt. And my husband served as well.

mentally disconnect from their families and friends back home. That is unhealthy to the point of being scary. But I agree that Americans need to be more aware of what our troops go through. If they were, we would have millions out there protesting to bring them home!

"Jody's doin' your mama, too."

just curious

You are not taught to disconnect from your family. It may seem that way while in Basic Training because of limited access to telephone/computers, but US Mail works just fine and is still the high point of most young Soldier's day in Basic Training. I speak this from the largest Basic Combat Training Center in the Army where I see daily what American youth(and some not so young too, many due it for the economics) who volunteer are doing.

to die or otherwise suffer terribly. However, I'm not sure I appreciate the actual work they've done because they've been asked to do things of which I totally disapprove. That's not their fault, except in the Nuremberg/Lt. Calley sense (which I don't mean at all to dismiss--to the contrary, we meed more refusals to follow criminal orders, IMO).

We were told lies about how troops were treated during the Vietnam War. Since then, IMO, we've had a collective guilt that we've made up for by knee jerking at every mention of the troops. Again, not their fault. That's on us. However, I'm over it.

Yes, Mullen, I appreciate your willingness to make huge sacrifices and, probably even harder for you, your willingness to have your loved ones make huge sacrifices. For that willingness, I almost revere you. But, no, I don't appreciate the work the troops have been doing overseas, and, on occasions, I've been downright revolted by the way some of them have gone about it, too.

So, when I see troops in my neighborhood--as I often do--I want to hug them for their willingness, but I'm not sure I want to thank them for their service, which seems to have become the thing to do. So, I thank them for their courage.

nor recite the number dead each day anymore. I can count on one hand the number of film clips shown from the war on the news in a week. I only hear about a local boy now and then who was killed way too young-- mostly because we have a huge base up North and the families often come here for shopping etc.

Also, I hear about most military deaths as a tangent when reporting on that Church that protests their funerals.

It seems to me if we are not "at war" (ie, Iraq has "ceased combat") and Afghanistan has a US friendly government in place; we are allied with Pakistan and are only a part of a NATO action in support of the Libyan people-- and generally sending in drones (unmanned missile dropping aircraft)--- I just don't understand why we have US military men and women over there.

Of course, I do see and read of the horrendous vile things some of our military men are doing in Afghanistan and did see the Wikileaks video so am naturally not wishing to support those brutal immoral actions. I am sure that most of the enlisted are not like that and don't deserve to be characterized as that.

Seeing how our states are reeling from one disaster after another, I feel very strongly that our national guard troops should be returned to the states and no longer forced to serve as overseas military. I don't agree with our national treasure used to support death and destruction.

I learned those terms only to well in the Marines during the Vietnam War. The military has been evaluated to sacred cow status and they amount to nothing more than hired guns for corporate amerika. We are supposedly still fighting for Iraq and Afghanistan LIBERTIES & FREEDOMS after ten years of battle. If that be the battle cry I got a tin horn dictator occupying the governorship in Wisconsin I need help defeating! I can look across the USA and see similar political problems existing in other States but we are worried about the Middle East ... same old .... same old. As the saying goes ‘Are you more amazed at how things change Or how they stay the same?’

We are constantly creating warfare by our political nation building just to justify the existence of the military ant the military industrial complex. The War on Terror is akin to the War on Drugs and both will end up in the dust bins of history.

We are destroying our economy to fight wars on two fronts. What about the millions of homeless unemployed Americans that have sacrificed their futures so that we can support the troops?

Mullen is speaking out against Congress's intent to cut the funding to care for wounded troops.

Those with wounds that will require years of support to assist them through life.

And the wounds that show up years later from participating in combat.

If you want to be angry, be angry at those who sent them.

Be angry at those who profit from sending them.

Be angry at those who hold office and exploit them for political gain.

Be angry at those who sent jobs out of this country.

Be angry at those who wrecked the economy of main street.

Be angry at those who set the policy that allows this to happen.

Be angry at those who squandered the wealth of the nation for senseless war after senseless war.

Be angry, be very angry.

I just got back from Afghanistan (I'm a long-time DUer, but I doubt many here will remember or recognize me because I changed my handle right before I joined the army) - and I feel pretty much re-connected with civilian society. I have no problems driving, interacting with people, keeping a stable relationship, waiting on line at Walmart, ect.

I saw combat. I saw people die. I saw horrible, horrible stuff that my mind has, thankfully, managed to push towards the back part where I don't think about stuff constantly.

But I know there are guys in my platoon whose deployment did effect their state of mind. Some guys came back and within the first week were falling-on-the-floor drunk, were getting into fights in the middle of the street, were suicidal.

I'm not sure what can realistically be done about this, and I'm not sure its society's job to understand the situation they're in. Society really can't.

I used to be a writer, and I'm skilled at conversation, but even I can't make someone know what it was like over there. You just have to experience it firsthand. A cliche, I know, but its true.

What was your job?

I was a long haul truck driver or 88M. When I got the driving habits I developed carried over. I look up at the overpasses(someone could be standing up there) as I drive under them, I swerved like crazy when I saw something on the road--in Iraq bombs are often disguised in trash and there are a lot of pot-holes(in many instances, more like man-holes). Also many people notice when I ride shotgun I often look to my right to see if the road is clear of traffic so they can make a turn(trained to do this a lot because of the size of the trucks). However, I don't have problems in crowded places like they told us that some who come back from deployments will like to sit in a corner of a restaurant so no one is behind them or I didn't have the issue of always checking for exits or nearest place to escape like Bourne Identity. Probably because of the nature of my job. Thankfully I didn't witness people die though one did in my unit and others were injured.

I do think it is important for society to understand even though it would be hard for them to understand. It is one thing to die or become seriously injured, which I'm sure society is aware of, but there is so much that goes into deployment. It is hard to explain. The reason why I say they should try to understand because if you're asking them to go to any war it is important to realize how taxing it is mentally, physically, and emotionally it is to be deployed. Hope I'm making sense, there is so much that goes into it that deciding you want to send troops somewhere shouldn't be taken lightly as it is even though this is what they signed up for.

11C, or a mortarman.

I think I was helped by the fact that I'm single and a little older than everyone else who went. I'm 32 and the oldest in my platoon, so I think I was able to process what was going on a lot easier than guys in their late teens/early 20s who were over there. A year for an 18, 19-year old is a a lifetime. For me, a year seems like a few months now, lol.

Which is, of course, all the civilians' fault...

:eyes:
rocktivity

willing to go out and murder people they've never met because a bunch of asshole politicians tell them to. It's always struck me as being rather stupid and I think we'd all be better off if whenever we had a war people would just stop showing up to it.

Oh I know, I know, honor the warrior, not the war, respect the courage and sacrifice, and blah, blah, motherfucking blah. Spare me. Courage and sacrifice mean shit when you do it for unethical causes.

What if they decided to have a War..and no one showed up?

People seem to think it's the highest calling. Well, I suppose when faced with a real life-and-death emergency, like Hitler invading your country, it is quite important. But that's not the situation. The people who want to kill us want to do so BECAUSE we've been messing with their lives and their countries.

I'd love to shift the view the public has of the military. For much of this country, it's our greatest treasure and our most respected institution. I think it sucks. The military drains our treasury, ruins our soldier's minds, teaching them to live in a top-down authoritarian system, teaches ruthless and uncritical action over compassion, it goes on and on and is against everything I believe in.

And most of the problems our military "solves" are just problems it or other aspects of our national security apparatus have created through our attempt to deliver unlimited access of the world's natural resources to corporate interests regardless of the wishes of the people who live in the areas containing said resources.

We live in a great country that has most everything we need, with no neighbors threatening our existence. There is no need to control the world. That's the old way of thinking, and it doesn't work except to enrich the plutocrats.

Defund the war machine, defund the entire national security apparatus to a tenth of its size, and we'll be fine. Military should be a bad word, its service frowned upon unless we're under direct attack. And NO DREAM ACT! We don't need a mechanism where the corporate-military complex can recruit soldiers from desperately poor nations with the promise of U.S. citizenship or education. We need less soldiers, we need to rebuild our society with a peaceful and cooperative model.

Wasn't it a direct attack on the USA? I have no problem with our presence in Afghanistan. None at all. Been there, helped make a change and difference, will go back as needed. Have always from day one questioned Iraq. Huge, huge mistake there. I Despise our leadership placing us in that quagmire. My gas purchases sure haven't gotten lower, have yours?

I don't see myself or other service men and women as great treasure, but for many of us, not all, but many of us, do see it as selfless service to a greater cause. I see it as a calling, a profession that I'm very good at. I protect and serve my country. I don't have flags and decals all over my car and truck. I don't boast of military accomplishments. I am a quiet professional and very proud of what my fellow men and women in the service of our nation have done.

We as a nation chose to end the draft in 1973 and although there have been dark days for our nation, the All Volunteer military has proven its worth. I see daily, young men and women, even after being at war for 10 years volunteering to serve their nation. Many of them join due to economics and the horrible lack of employment, but many others have joined to serve their nation. How many others do that, especially our elected leadership? We have so few in Congress that have served, and that's where the problem lies in my humble opinion. Lots of Chickenhawks there. Congress loves to send us in harms way, but few have served, be it peacetime or war. I have no trouble if or when they cut our budget. Should have happened years ago. But there is a reason for a standing military, and those of us who do serve do so for many reasons, not just for the economics or position of power/rank.

9/11 was Al Qaeda's counterattack in reaction to our forces in Iraq after the end of the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait. We could and should have left shortly thereafter. But we stayed. And after a decade of fighting in Iraq, Al Qaeda took some of the fight back to the United States.

Thing is, most Americans would probably have agreed that we should have not still been fighting in Iraq during most of that decade. But we were never asked, and didn't really give it much thought.

I think their specific complaint was our troops at the Riyadh base in Saudi Arabia, not that it matters. The hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and wouldn't tolerate our troops in their country. This was, of course, a base that was hugely expanded due to the first Iraq war, so your saying it was a reaction to our forces in Iraq is pretty much the way I see it, with the slight distinction mentioned above.

I'm not sure how Riyadh is spelled, anyway thanks for your post. Defund and unplug the war machine!

We were not in Iraq after the Kuwaiti liberation. We were in Saudi. More or less at their request. Granted, we were still doing aerial combat patrols over Iraq. Boo-freakin-hoo, they lost a war. That they started.

To become a member of the American Legion, you must have served active duty during times of official combat. And anyone who has served in the military after the liberation of Kuwait qualifies for American Legion membership because of that action in Iraq.

Do you know why the Arabs kept looking to the United States to mediate the Palestinian situation?

The UK and France "liberated" the Arabs from the Turks, but actually stayed on as conquerors. The Germans "liberated" the Arabs from the UK and France, but actually stayed on as conquerors. The UK and France "liberated".... You get the point.

However, there was one country that occasionally interacted with the Arabs in the Middle East and always left afterwards: the United States of America. That is why they trusted us in the I-P thing. That is why they trusted in the first war against Iraq.

Staying behind after the first Iraqi war destroyed that trust among a lot of them. In the first war against Iraq, only but one Arab nation supported the United States. In the second war against Iraq, zero Arab nations supported the United States.


Now, I have given you my reasons why I believe it was a mistake to remain in Iraq. What are your reasons for believing it was a good idea?

"If you are able, save for them a place inside of you and save one backward glance when you are leaving for the places they can no longer go.
Be not ashamed to say you loved them, though you may or may not have always. Take what they have taught you with their dying and keep it with your own.
And in that time when men decide and feel safe to call the war insane, take one moment to embrace those gentle heroes you left behind.

Major Michael Davis O'Donnell
1 January 1970
Dak To, Vietnam
Listed as KIA February 7, 1978

You just saved this thread from being a complete pukefest.

And I'm really tired of everybody constantly glorifying it. And I've never met any people that glorify it more than those who have served in the military.

in the military who have served in one.

They might say they are opposed to war, but they believe their time in the military was some awesome "service" to their country for which we are all indebted.

When we had a draft that made some sense, honor their service because they were forced to do it, quite possibly against their wishes. Or perhaps they were fighting an actual foreign enemy like Hitler or Hirohito, or doing good work in some fashion (I would probably disagree that it is good work in most cases).

Anymore, it's a job, and the employers are, for the most part, multinational corporations whose interests the military is serving, with the U.S. taxpayer paying the bills.

People need to look any career choice in the eye. If you're desperate for livelihood and you need to eat, I can understand, some people have to make really hard choices. But it really must be considered in advance of any career choice: to what purpose is my work serving?

There's a lot of education necessary to change the way people look at this. The corporate media and the right-wing all worship the military and adamantly keep any discussion of its merits out of the permitted debate.

I'll also add that I have met very few, if any, people that served in the military who didn't exhibit a seemingly permanently burned-in military mindset. They generally don't question the military, and they believe that serving in the military is doing a great thing. I'm sure there are exceptions, not sure I have met any though.

Apologies to any I am offending with these remarks. I realize they will be hard to read for many. This discussion needs to be had. There is a lot of de-programming that needs to take place in our over-militarized society. It's everywhere.

Well, I'm glad you're here to let your paternalism inform me.

Please, tell me, when we liberated Kuwait, who was my "multinational corporate... employer"?

When I was supporting peacekeeping ops in the Balkans, who was my "multinational corporate... employer"?

When I was doing disaster relief in Mozambique and Louisiana and a dozen other places, who was my "multinational corporate... employer"?

When we went into Afghanistan, who was my "multinational corporate... employer"?



As for "permanently burned-in military mindset", that's a pretty ambiguous statement. You really need to be a bit more specific. However, taking it as the pejorative you seem to be implying, I suggest either you don't know many military people, and those only superficially, and/or you are viewing them from a position of preconceived bias, with the intent of reinforcing your own predjudices.

Good luck with all that.

You repelled one fascist dictator and gave it back to another. Who was your multi-national corporate employer? How about Chevron, Exxon, BP, OPEC, and everybody else that had an interest in making sure the Iraq didn't manipulate the oil market to its will.

and not all the fault of the military.

Or do you want us to start disobeying our civilian control?

I'm just questioning the constant propaganda put out about our military adventures.

And I'm also going to have to question whether or not you're really under civilian control. Tell me, if you were called in to quell a riot of citizens fed up with our government's corruption, what would you do? Would you follow orders or would you disobey them and side with the people?

In Egypt, one of the things that brought down the Mubarak regime was that the military eventually sided with the protesters. Everything I've seen of the U.S. military tells me there is no way you would do that here. You'd just obey orders and go home and lie to yourself that you're really protecting us.

"Good luck with all that."

Thanks, same to you and yours. Seems to me there's a lot you don't know about U.S. foreign policy and what drives it. I'm sure you think the same of me. I'll leave it at that, and seriously, good luck, my intention here is not to inflame or alienate fellow Dems but to end this country's insane militarism.

And most all of my family was in the military, so yes I know plenty of them and I know them quite well. Top-down authoritarians, or a deeply planted acceptance of such organizational structures. They were never deprogrammed.

The kids are a little upset. Too much time on their hands. We should try to be patient with them. ;-)

Both Mullen and Defense Secretary Robert Gates have voiced concern about the all-volunteer force of more than 1.4 million growing alienated from the rest of society, with large numbers of recruits coming from more rural, conservative areas.

How much of that has to do with the fact that the BRAC base closures inordinately shut down military bases in urban areas...everything from the Presidio and Alameda in the SF Bay Area, to Long Beach NAS in LA, Fort Sheridan in Chicago, the Philadelphia Naval Complex...I can go on and on.

There was a time when urban people, when joining the military, could be reasonably assured that they'd have a shot at a base posting close to their home and families.

The BRAC's have largely closed most of our urban military bases, instead concentrating our military assets in remote superbases located in the middle of bumfuck nowhere. An Army recruit from San Francisco nowadays not only has to accede to the reality of surrendering his freedom to the government, but also the reality that he's probably going to be based somewhere in Oklahoma. Or Texas. Or some other godawful place that nobody who grew up in San Francisco is going to want to live. The military deliberately deurbanized, and in so doing seriously undermined its ability to recruit urban youth.

directly in or over an urban area, without some some 'tard-fest of pout-rage professionals wailing that they didn't know their McMansion had been built next to a military base that has been there for over 100 years.

Or the expense of running such a base (or any base) inside an increasingly urbanized area.

Or the expense and pain-in-the-ass for the people who have to live and work on such scattered facilities.

I present your post as exhibit #1 in the disconnect....

For exhibit #2, I present the US Army bases in Germany, where one may live on one kasern, work on another 15 miles away, have a 10 mile drive to a third for the commisary and PX, 30-150 miles to the nearest gunnery range or field exercise area, 20 miles to the military hospital....

Your points do nothing to refute mine. Sure, there are valid reasons why it was a good idea to de-urbanize the military, but there are plenty of reasons why it was a bad idea as well.

1) Urban recruits now have very little chance of being posted in their home state, much less near their homes.

2) Urban and suburban residents are no longer exposed to the military with any regularity, aside from what they see in the media. The military are no longer a part of "their" lives, and have much less relevance to urban and suburban youth.

3) The de-urbanization of the military drastically increased the culture shock that urban recruits have to deal with in the military. For many people, the transition from an urban lifestyle to a rural lifestyle in the middle of nowhere can be an even bigger shock than the transition from civilian to military life.

4) The de-urbanization of the military not only impacted potential recruits, but their families as well. Culture shock for new recruits is bad enough, but a ruralized military typically means asking the urban and suburban spouses and children of recruits to relocate to rural areas. Many spouses simply won't do it, forcing potential recruits to choose between serving their country, and being near their spouses and children.

The military made a choice. As valid as it's reasons may have been, it chose to withdraw itself from urban areas and concentrate itself into rural, conservative areas. The result of that choice us a military that recruits more heavily from rural and conservative areas. The military brass may not be happy with that result, but I'd suggest that they refer back to the 7 P's before whining at us about it.

Military recruits come from a wide range of demographics.

1. Sorry, the military isn't about "being posted in their home state". Never has been, never will be. If you join the military without wanting to experience some travel, TFB. Also, you don't, for the most part, get stationed where you want, you get stationed where the military needs your set of skills/training. If the two happen to coincide, congrats, you won the lotto. I've been at seven different bases in 20+ years, not counting Basic/Technical training. Twice I got what I wanted, twice I ended up somewhere I liked despite not asking for it, three times I got BFE and made the best of it. What's your point?

2. There are still plenty of military bases near/in urban areas. http://militarybases.com/ Several different map version with a little Google. I'd say the ratio runs close to 50/50, urban/rural. Note that we have only a little over 50% of the people we had 20 years ago, and are tasked with a lot more to do. When people aren't deployed, they normally don't go running around town in uniform on good-will tours, they're trying to do things with family and friends before getting shipped out again.

3. Urban/rural "culture shock"? Try being posted overseas. I've been in over 20 years now, and I have no idea where you see this urban/rural divide. Then again, I grew up in both environments, so maybe I'm oblivious to the phenomenom.

4. Again, if that's a problem, then the military in general isn't the right choice for those folks. The "urban/rural" meme you are stuck on is the very least of your worries in the modern military.

5. Where is it that military leadership is "whining" about this? I'd never even heard it raised as a concern until you brought it up.

The overwhelming consensus is that the American public wants our troops home, sadly the govt doesn't feel that way. You should go complain to your bosses...they are the ones keeping the troops in harms way, not the American public.

many nations have discovered this.

I don't know if that's the right path to go down. But it is an option to reduce this effect.