America Has Second Thoughts About a United Europe

ASHINGTON — The expansion of the European Union this weekend from 15 members to 25, marking the formal end of Europe's postwar division, presents America with a choice. Should it embrace this new union that stretches to the Russian border or try to foster Europe's many fissures in order to divide and rule?

For the moment, there is scant official comment, but perhaps Europe should not take this personally. The United States has shifted paradigms: Europe is old news. Still, the less-than-benign neglect surrounding the European Union's addition of 10 members, 8 of them once part of the Soviet bloc, reflects a moment of great difficulty.

"The situation has never been so bad in 50 years," Gunter Burghardt, the union's ambassador in Washington, said in an interview. "It is a fact of life that America is a hegemonic power, but the question is how that power is used. We need to know that America is open to a confident relationship, not just with certain member states but with the E.U. as such."

This assessment reflects the enduring wounds of the Iraq war and the feeling among many European officials that an American administration has determined that its interests may lie more in division within Europe than in unity, more in forging improvised coalitions of the willing than in honoring a partnership of the wedded.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/weekinreview/02cohe.html?ex=1084075200&en=ff4c675a60640ab9&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

Pitch Sunni against Shiia; New Europe against Coalition of Willing. Divide and Conquer is BushCo's war cry. Peace is not an option.

:headbang:

The nanny states of Europe will *never* be able to compete with us economically, much, much less militarily. The larger member states ignore their own rules on deficit limits but expect the smaller ones to tow the line. I give the EU 10 years before it's dissolved or at war among itself. That is if it's not been turned into an islamic republic first.

the EU will keep banded together. BushCo is a danger to any country who does not have allies.

cite some sources?
I agree it sounds like a very difficult enterprise. But Europeans are no idiots.

:eyes:

keep dreaming

Before either a civil war or a fascist takeover. I am not usually that pessimistic.

Europe is already competing quite nicely economically. As for militarily, Buschco seems to be doing a nice job of sapping the capacity of the U.S. military all on his own.

My whole life I have been hearing how Europe is going down the tubes economically, but it still seems to be there. I have never had a chance to visit, but people I know who have are usually impressed by the place. Americans (and Canadians) hear a lot of propaganda about Europe, as our corporate elites fear that we will want to emulate some of their policies (i.e. some features of their "nanny state").

"Europe is already competing quite nicely economically."

Really? We piss and moan about 6% unemployment when economists call 5% "full employment". Germany has near 20% unemployment and the same job in Germany yields about 20-30% less pay than here.

We think Social security is in trouble? The birthrate in Europe will not support it's cradle to grave ponzi scheme; it just won't. They'll have to cut benefits, highly unlikely since French civil servants strike at any suggestion of cuts; or they'll do what they are doing, importing workers; read Muslims.

"As for militarily, Buschco seems to be doing a nice job of sapping the capacity of the U.S. military all on his own."

Europe has spent only a fraction on defense in percentage of GDP that America has. 1. because they can't, since the money has to support social services and 2. because America has been shouldering the burden of European defense since the end of WWII.

Europe is so far behind us in technology that they literally can't fight with us--they don't even have the technology to keep communicate with our troops

"My whole life I have been hearing how Europe is going down the tubes economically, but it still seems to be there."

Hardly proof that they're doing fine. But for how much longer will they still be there. If the current birthrate for native Europeans keeps up Muslims will be the majority in many western European countries withing 20-30 years. Already the the most popular boy's name in The Netherlands is Mohamed. No joke.

"I have never had a chance to visit, but people I know who have are usually impressed by the place."

I have. My wife is German. Absolutely wonderful place to visit. I truly hope Europe turns around. But my sister-in-law's boyfriend graduated from an engineering degree 7 years ago and is still unemployed.

"Americans (and Canadians) hear a lot of propaganda about Europe, as our corporate elites fear that we will want to emulate some of their policies (i.e. some features of their "nanny state")."

There's a lot about Europe I like. But their kind of socialism is unsustainable. It's a mathematical certainty. Without workers to support the aging it just doesn't hold up. Besides, the Canadian and German (don't know anything about other European health systems) are not ones I'd want to see implemented here. I've seen the care that my father-in-law gets and it sucks. Somehow we've got to help everyone access health care but let's find another way.

Only Bush followers believe the numbers coming out the the Bush administration. Do you really believe that out of no where, with nothing to back it up and when Bush most needed it, the US gained over 300,000 jobs? We do not know what our unemployment rate is, and it could be as high as Europe's. We just do not know with this Cabal in charge.

Haven't you heard, our technology has been outsourced. With all the technological jobs going south and east, who is to say who is ahead between the US and Europe. It could be we are both in the backseat behind the East.

Both Europe and the US are allowing immigration to offset the aging population. Who is ahead in this race, I do not know.

Europe has a plan, and it is to unite and grow with diversity. The US plan is to bomb and pillage. The Europeon plan at least retains their honor.

The unemployment rate in the former EAST Germany, is over 19%, but for the whole country the rate is half that.

Are your other "facts" any better than that one?

where did you get the information?

Really? We piss and moan about 6% unemployment when economists call 5% "full employment". Germany has near 20% unemployment and the same job in Germany yields about 20-30% less pay than here.

Simply untrue. The unemployment in Germany is about 10%, counted very differently from the US way. This is not a good number, not nearly an acceptable number, but it is not caused by the EU. The main reasons for the problems are:
- the east German money was changed into the DM without lowering the DMs value. The result was a 20% too expensive DM when joining the Euro.
- The failed experiment to construct a working economy from scratch in east Germany.
The payment argument is difficult to explain. For starters wages in the US are hardly the same anyplace in the US, so don't expect them to be the same in Europe. The costs of living tend to be cheaper in Europe. Of course the existing healthcare insurance system helps too.

Europe has spent only a fraction on defense in percentage of GDP that America has. 1. because they can't, since the money has to support social services and 2. because America has been shouldering the burden of European defense since the end of WWII.

Europe is so far behind us in technology that they literally can't fight with us--they don't even have the technology to keep communicate with our troops

Militarily Europe is far behind the US. Personally I'm very happy about it. Anyway, much of Europe's "weakness" is because the US did not allow certain European nations to have some equipment.
As for "defending Europe" - that is true. Europe did rely on the US, much to the good of both continents.
The "not communicating with our troops" part is true. However I don't really see the problem. Some European armies did not adopt some changes the US made to the communication systems. The Eurofighter jets are able to communicate with all NATO forces. However I don't think that Europe has any reason to measure it's assets with the US. :shrug: That sort of thinking is simply not present in Europe.


Hardly proof that they're doing fine. But for how much longer will they still be there. If the current birthrate for native Europeans keeps up Muslims will be the majority in many western European countries withing 20-30 years. Already the the most popular boy's name in The Netherlands is Mohamed. No joke.

The Birthrate argument is simply incorrect. The birthrate of women with a migration background is almost exactly the same as for women with no recent migration background. This myth is straight from the European far right.
The most frequent first names in Germany (2002) were
1. Alexander 1. Marie
2. Maximilian 2. Sophie
3. Paul 3. Maria
4. Leon 4. Anna / Anne
5. Lukas 5. Laura
6. Jonas 6. Lea
7. Tim 7. Katharina
8. David 8. Sarah
9. Niclas 9. Julia
10. Luca 10. Lena

In the Netherlands(2000) they were:

1. Thomas 1. Sanne
2. Max 2. Anne
3. Tim 3. Fleur
4. Daan 4. Anouk
5. Lars 5.Kim
6. Niels 6. Iris
7. Nick 7. Emma
8. Tom 8. Lotte
9. Rick 9. Laura
10. Kevin 10.Julia


Besides, the Canadian and German (don't know anything about other European health systems) are not ones I'd want to see implemented here. I've seen the care that my father-in-law gets and it sucks. Somehow we've got to help everyone access health care but let's find another way.
Sorry, but I disagree. The German system sure isn't perfect, but it is not mandatory. People able to pay for a private insurance are free to do so - only having an insurance is important. And I sure saw a lot more people with missing teeth in the US. Not to mention people unable to pay their hospital bills at all.


Edit: spelling

Which is very difficult to endure.

A prisoner gets health care.

Your law-abiding, good-hearted, down on his/her luck citizen is SOL.

But I have been hearing this about Europe since I was old enough to pay attention, let's say the early 1970's. So, I have come to take these warnings of disaster with a grain of salt.

Most of these statistics are very subject to definitions - for example the unemployment rate in different countries varies by how discouraged workers are defined, the rate of imprisonment, size of the military, population in post-secondary education, etc.

The standardized unemployment rate in Germany in late 2003 was 9.3%, while it was 5.9% in the U.S. and 7.5% in Canada - the U.K. was 4.9%.
http://www.oecd.org

The Purchasing Power Parity GDP per capita (2002) in the U.S. was 36,100 in the U.S., 30,700 in the seven major European countries, while it was 30,300 in Canada. Given the decline in the U.S. dollar, that comparison is probably not as favorable to the U.S. now as it was two years ago.

So, if an unemployment rate slightly higher than the U.S. and a per capita income slightly lower than the U.S. signals economic collapse to you, then I guess I can't argue.

As for birthrates, they vary from country to country over the decades. The U.S. currently has a higher birthrate than Canada, for instance but that has not historically been the case. Just because the birthrate is low now in some European counties doesn't mean that it will remain that way forever. Europeans themselves have been predicting demographic disaster since at least the mid 19th century. By the way, the current U.S. birthrate of 2.0 per woman is below replacement level as well, so any European calamities will visit the U.S. as well.

As for European wives, mine is Finnish, and she seems to think things are ok for her relatives.

The U.S. does spend a lot on the military, but that is what empires do. At one time Europe spent much more on the military that the U.S. did.

You assume that I am American - actually I am Canadian. I like our health system just fine thanks. As an example, my mother has went from living in her own home, to an attractive assisted care center, to a very nice nursing home, with a hospital stay in between, without causing a financial crisis for my family. In fact, it didn't cost any more than the taxes I normally pay, very willingly.

I guess the way we interpret our experiences is just different, which is good. Nice talking to you.

this the europeanized version of neocon propaganda.

In terms of bandwidth, the European Union standards make the U.S. look like a bunch of backwoods chicken farmers. Most nations in the European Union have made the Internet available to all sectors of society, but in the U.S. the rich have the best bandwidth and the rural poor are lucky to even have local telephone service!

In Europe the private sector isn't deregulated, and doesn't get away with providing garbage in return for ever increasing utility rates. Thank god we can enjoy all those private sector benefits in this country! If Canada and Europe are doing so badly economically why are their literacy rates higher than ours, why do large companies incorporate in Canada just to take advantage of the stronger currency, and why does the U.S. have a higher mortality rate than Canada or any of the European Union nations?

Why can software engineers develop new products in Europe without having to worry about the European Parliament stepping in to allow undefined bogus patents for nonexistent products? Shouldn't this kind of business environment also exist in the U.S., or has Capitalism simply been reduced to an American patriotic slogan?

Regarding unemployment, Germany has an unemployment rate of 9.4%..not 20%! The United States has over 6% unemployed, not including uninsured part-time workers and temp workers. Portugal has 5% unemployment, the Netherlands has 4% unemployment, Luxembourg has 3% unemployment, and Norway has 2.6% unemployment. Even Laos had a lower unemployment rate, 5.7%, than the U.S..

Finally Germany people have higher incomes in terms of consumption power than do U.S. citizens. They also have universal healthcare, a better unemployment compensation system, and well funded job training programs for the unemployed. You claimed that Germany will not be able to support its Social Security system because of the increasing percentage of elderly. But Germany has responded by training its young people for jobs in the healthcare profession and medical research. By doing this Germany shall match the growing demand for healthcare with the needed supply. At the same time young workers will be employed because of their needed services. Most importantly, tax increases to support this system would help the young and old, not just the elderly as in our system. If we do not adopt a universal approach which Germany has used..Medicare and Social Security will be most threatened by angry young workers who may be burdened by higher taxes, growing unemployment, and no healthcare coverage in return!

If the U.S. military technology is soooo far advanced - how comes that Europe just has surpassed the U.S. by becoming the biggest arms supplier world wide? Not that this would make me proud :(

Do you know that quite a lot of vital technology, such as guidance systems, for U.S. arms actually comes from European companies?

You seem all too happy to indulge in the illusion that the U.S. is able to spend that much on military items because it can save on social issues. Again, you are wrong. The U.S. can only spend these enormous sums because it has shouldered an enormous debt. Well, we have already seen the fall of the Soviet dinosaur, caused to a large degree by military overspending.

Regarding our "socialism" - yes, the current system needs to be reformed, due to demographic changes, but that does not mean it needs to be abolished. It has been working for many decades. As well, you seem to have a very disturbed view on German/EU health care. Average life span in the EU is 78,4 year, compared to 76,9 in the U.S. (numbers of 2000). Doesn't look we are doing too bad, eh?

Also:
"An estimated 15.2 percent of the pop-
ulation or 43.6 million people were
without health insurance coverage
during the entire year in 2002, up
from 14.6 percent in 2001, an
increase of 2.4 million people."

Source: http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-223.pdf

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:bounce:

doncha think?

Oh well, we needed a laugh.

edit: I mean, the toning down part does not refer to Mayberry, Mayberry is definitely providing the laugh part.

on edit due to editing as I posted *whew*

The toning down part referred to the person who made the outrageously condescending remark about the European Union.


Sorry, again you are right this is funny.

edit: whoops, nevermind.

But, oh,...I guess, being the decent DUers that we are, we have to be mindful of "sensitive" people.

darn.

That IS a great picture.

... many used to downplay the ascension of Japan to the world's #2 economy during the 1970s.

"Oh, they can never compete with us."

The fact is, Japan slaughtered US manufacturers with superiour and innovative products. The only problem is that Japan succumbed to it's own success and didn't have international bodies like OPEC bailing them out as OPEC did for the United States... Wonder why the US administration has been coddling Saudi Arabia???

Actually, Japan succumbed to pressure from the Reagan and bu$h 1 administrations-- "voluntary" export quotas, artificial revaluation of the yen (yen going from 240/dollar to 160/dollar in a couple of months), and a host of other arm-twisting techniques.

With the incorporation of the new states, the EU has become the second biggest economic power. But it's intention is NOT to become bigger, meaner and more menacing the U.S. Why should they engage in the same folly of hegemony?

Europe has seen centuries of struggle for the domination, culminating in endless wars, and now finally has found out that it's much better to cooperate instead. Sure we have our differences, competition and animosities - but we are learning to manage our differences.

Did you know the deficit limit you are citing is about half as high as the current U.S. deficit? Did you know there's a huge trade imbalance between Europe and the U.S. - in favour of the EU?

BTW, who gives you the information we will turn int an islamic republic soon? I live in the middle of Europe, have quite a lot of muslim neighbours - and no, not a chance. BTW, I just met the turkish family living a floor lower on the traditional Labour Day union manifestation ...

:yourock:

:toast:

Read post 22.

"BTW, who gives you the information we will turn int an Islamic republic soon? I live in the middle of Europe, have quite a lot of Muslim neighbors - and no, not a chance. BTW,"

Check out http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3459963.stm. Not sure of it's contents, didn't have time to check it out but I've read quite a lot about European demographics and the news ain't good. Just google "Muslim population in Europe" then read it and weep. As unassimilated as most Muslims are that once in the majority they'll suddenly adopt western democratic ideals?

It sounds like you disapprove of Muslim immigration into Europe. Why?

then no problem.

Your sister, your daughter, your mother, your wife.

Happy now?

Moreover, what is your problem with either?

about the controversy over France banning the headscarves thing. And the fact that you posted this without even checking into what the contents might be makes the credibility of your other "info" to be more than a bit suspect.

But it's all good Sam7. Just remember to vote for Kerry in November, LOL.

I have a good friend who is white as they come and a Muslim, just as I have Arab friends who are Christian. You are confusing the growth of the Muslim religion with the small fundamentalist Islamic populations who embrace Sharia. To believe all those of Islamic faith are represented by fundamentalist Muslims is like believing all Christians are represented by David Koresh at Waco. Every religion has it's nutball offshoots, and Islam is no different. From what I've read, the spread of the Islamic religion itself is much less a problem than the stereotypes and generalizations you just put forth as a boogeyman argument to scare white people of the big, bad Arabs.

"the muslims are taking over europe, just like they did some 1000 years ago"

Do a google on our balance of trade.

In the meantime, an EU citizen can get medical care anywhere in the EU, and work anywhere in the EU. An EU passport is solid gold.

The Euro hasn't been having a bad year, either.

War is costly. The EU is not at war. We are. War is a permanent vampire on a nation's neck. We're being bled dry to achieve nothing that will be of value to US. While making lifelong enemies in an area where we need allies.

But you keep believing we're still a superpower.

Welcome to DU.

n/t

hahahahahahaha I give the US 10 years before it's in deep depression or at war amongst itself unless the uglies get out of what used to be a white house.

I believe the EU will, in fact, be a very serious competitor to the US. One of the reasons for this is because of the way they treat their citizens, and their respect for true democracy.

They have also learned lessons that we have yet to learn...

jumping onto the EU with the "chocolate maker" Old Europe at the rate of about 12 countries an hour...

a fragmented Europe than a strong, united Europe. Then, they could have stood up against the Miscreants in Washington as a solid force and told them "no" on many issues. As it is, Spain had to be the sole renegade and pull their forces out, even as the rest of Europe wished they could do the same.

Even tough-guy Schröeder (who was elected going against Bush) said last year, "I'm sorry for the things I said". Even he understood the reality that the US has become the Renegade of the World, running roughshod over our allies. There is no friendship anymore, only dollars and contracts and double-dealing.

Then there's the issue of the Euro. Russia has threatened many times to switch from Petrodollars to the Euro, which would probably throw us into a 1930's style depression. Saddam DID in fact switch from using dollars to Euros, and some people believe that was the real reason we invaded Iraq.
I've read on some articles that it is so profitable for us to deal in Petrodollars, that we're in essence getting our oil for free.

So no, they do not want a strong, united Europe. United they stand, and divided they fall, says Bush.

US and saying "We must hang together or we will sure hang separately."

certain European countries as "enemies" (I really do loathe Richard Perle - he is one sick mo-fo). The last thing the power-mongering neocons want is a united Europe even though the European Union has the potential of being a far healthier democratic body than the union of our States.

All I know is a balance of power is a very good thing for all humanity. Concentration of power is when things go terribly awry.

countries into each other's arms.

Fuck these assholes.

If I were a European political leader, watching what the
United States is doing right now, I'd conclude the Americans
had gone completely crazy and that it was time to circle
the bloody wagons, so to speak.

J.

We'll see what happens with the Busholini PNACers over the next 7-8 months and then decide. I still believe that it is very healthy that the EU is forming and investing more into its people than grand delusions of power (e.g. WMDs).

the PNAC manifesto is a screed against the possibility of a competing economic power. It specifically mentions throwing wrenches into the German economic machine so Germany won't lead Europe economically.

Assuming the EU survives, and it probably will, there are 150 million more people, lower debt, lower foreign trade deficits, less waste on military projects, a healthier population personally more economically secure, and a whole host of other reasons why they can tell us to bugger off. There are many pitfalls and potholes in the raod ahead, but my impression is that everyone is pretty damn happy that 2000 years of warfare and 50 years of cold warfare are over so they can finally relax.

Europe is at this point completely self-contained if it wants to be. There is very little it needs from the outside, and Fortress Europe is an intriguing possibility.

of another power rising up to challenge and supersede you (which is historically inevitable) is to renounce any and all morality, use your nukes to destroy the capitals and major cities of all the other countries, form a huge military dictatorship governing the world with a conscript army through bloody brutality, and ride that bronco for as many years as you can! Until the inevitable coups, assassinations, popular uprisings and beheadings occur ushering in the next era.

By crazy I meant the PNAC doctrine of setting out to prevent even the possibility of some other country like China, or European powers, from becoming a challenger or rival to U.S. power and influence.

A successful European Union and peace in the Middle East is the NeoCons worst nightmare.

IMHO

180

even the eu doesn't know what the "eu" is.

"Old Europe" and aggressive behavior and determination have no concern about any opinion of the international community under Bush has had no effect on the momentum of the EU phenomenon?

Get it?

:bounce:

Sutherland pic got nixed... (snif)

I didn't even get to see it!

and all democrats should rejoice! Especially for the people of Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Cypress, Lithuania and so many others who came out from behind the Iron Curtain!

May all the Gods and GOddesses Bless Lady Europe! Liberty's only true defender! Hurrah for May 1, 2004! The Birth of a New Europe!

be down with doing whatever we say instead of joining that nasty EU and using that nasty currency? Whassup wit dat?

George Bush has in his entire body!

That will change when the EU candidate, John Kerry, wins.

impression (superficial, I know) was that of overall, enthusiasm and positive outlook for the formation and development of the EU. It was really great to meet people from all different countries.

May Day Martini! Made with Vodka and Real Wild Rose Syrup!


Here's a martini to celebrate the NEW EU!


Wild Rose Syrup ( From Poland its just the fruit from Rose Bushes
A fine vodka iced from any EU country!

Serve in iced martini glass with a real mini rose swizzle!

when we crossed the Rubicon.