NBC: Delta Force, Navy SEALs involved in abuse?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4917567/

As the investigation expands, officials tell NBC News that special operations forces, including both Delta Force and Navy SEALs, were possibly also involved in abusing prisoners in Iraq.

In fact, one prisoner, Mon Adel al Jamadi, died while being interrogated in Abu Ghraib by a CIA officer last November, shortly after being captured by Navy SEALs. Al Jamadi was being questioned about a plot to attack U.S. forces with plastic explosives.

An autopsy revealed al Jamadi had broken ribs and had been “badly beaten.” His CIA interrogator has told investigators the prisoner was injured before he was turned over to the CIA — something the Navy denies.

In a second case, the CIA is being investigated for the death of Iraqi Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush near the Syrian border, also last November. The CIA says he died several days after they questioned him.

...those special ops guys are like "animals".

that they're more like Nazi Germany's SS Troops....

Do not tell a Navy Seal to his face that he is more like "Nazi Germany's SS Troops" unless you know him or you are worse than "Nazi Germany's SS Troops".

The best trait of a Navy Seal is they don't discuss it in company of mistakes that would consider them "Nazi Germany's SS Troops". Seals good...Seal clubbers bad.

And, IMO, Bob Kerry was a war criminal. He committed his war crime in his capacity as a Seal. I would not be surprised if other Seals turned out to be war criminals. Of course, I don't mean this in a bad way. :) Here's a relevant link:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/25/kerrey.blitzer.02/

Isn't that exactly what people are talking about? Thanks for confirming our suspicions - assuming you know what you're talking about and are not just big-noting...

I'm not normally a violent person, but if you accused me of being like a death camp guard to my face, I have to say I'd be awful tempted.

Those are fighting words - they have little, if any speech content, their major purpose being to inflame and to insult and to hurt.

are hired killers. Let's face, that's their job. It is one they have been diligently trained to perform.....and one which they must prove themselves quite capable of executing WITHOUT QUESTION. Navy Seals are soldiers. They perform the tasks they are ordered to perform. If Navy Seals are odered to perform tasks on the level of SS operatives then Navy Seals shall do so....and they shall be rightly compared to Nazi SS operatives. Navy Seals have historically operated outside the boundries of the Geneva Convention...hence the secrecy which surrounds them. The same is true of Delta Force.

Frankly you don't know what the hell you are talking about. A Navy Seal....at least one worth his salt would smile at you and say "everyone is entitled to their opinion" if you compared him to a member of the Nazi SS. He would not act in such a way as to confirm that accusation....unless he received orders to do so.

RC
USN Vet

It's hard to discuss anything on here sometimes.

DO you always believe hearsay?

..yes. By the way, you can read my statement any number of ways. The way you seem to be interpreting it says more about you than anything.

These "love the troops for Bush" disrupters are back

...never.

I've got a lot of anecdotal spook stories, and I've been shot at as a civilian in America 7 times in my 54 years for mostly disregarding caution about speaking THE TRUTH.
:hi:

...are doing nothing to protect MY freedom. Please get it straight.

I resent being accused of being a freeper troll. If you have read any of my other posts you would realize I am a liberal Democrat. Please don't categorize all of us who aren't so quick to bash the troops as secret conservatives.

I have no doubt SEALS and other special ops folks do a number of activities that we would not like the world to know about. I have known several Army SF guys, guys I was commissioned with, and have heard certain things from them. I just wouldn't go as far as to equate them to the SS folks.

macho style

but this is very systemic because of the attitude from the top

the blame, the real blame is very high up in the corridors of power.

I want you folks to get this through your heads, MOST of our troops
are profesional who are doing a mission they cannot question. Now there are those who have obeyed ilegal orders and those troops, AND OFFICERS should pay fully to the extent of the law, MILITARY LAW.

That goes from PfC England all the way to the Chairman of the Joint
Chiefs. And of course their civilian leaders

...these guys tho. I'm just saying, that's what I've been told, and I tend to believe it.

I have KNOWN personally SEALs and Green Berets, and you could not be further from the truth.

Sad you are going by hearsay

Waht has happened is horrible, and now we are all going to have the May Lai effect... SAD indeed.

As I said, those who are gulty, Article 32, General Court Martial... and for civilians, my feeling is the hague... but DON'T generalize

Instead of assuming the worst and attacking me, you could ask for an explanation of what I meant. Since you didn't, I won't bother. Secondly, the person that told me this I trust implicitely.

These people are taught to function in mega-stress situations, and they have the potential to be very destructive -- much more than you or I know how to be. If this training is not well channelled, abuses are certain -- I don't care how nice your friends are.

That took guts and courage and I applaud them for that.

This is a top-down failure in my opinion and that's where the investigation must start.

...with my statement?

i agree with you completely. i know one person in military intelligence and he is very rough and tumble, but my gawd he is against bushco and he does an amazing job.

but, really, you said it best.

Honest to god, do you people read and consider before you react and post nonsequitors?

I have a good friend who was a SEAL and cannot think of a finer human being.

..ask. I never said that none of them were "fine human beings".

They may be like animals as far as living off the wild and having a developed sixth sense but as far as compassion and fair dealing there is none better. The SF are quite upset with the Army and Marines for their brutal behavior. The SF builds a rapport with the locals that is their best weapon. They work extremely close with the people and always have their interest at heart. The people trust the SF and work closely with them. They would never never never jeopardize that trust

as to connecting Sadaam to 9-11, to get his foothold in the middle East.
None of these Iraqis should have endured any of this

The US should have concentrated on Afgahanistan.
This was Bush's BIG FAT LIE that brought this indignation to the Iraqi people.

George Bush is THE "stain on America".

verifiable accounts it's gonna get worse a lot worse.

He was speaking on Charlie Rose about a section of the Prison that was set aside for Iraqi Women & Juveniles.

I think these Neanderthals believe they are in a Holy war and all their actions are justified on this basis.

They can Rape and Pillage with abandon and pause to take pix with their Victims for their Hommies back in the USA

It's Un fucking believable to say the least

acceptable, that is why Rummy needs to go, as a first step in
changing this perception among some troops, and I use the SOME
troops because I know it is NOT all troops...

World's eyes.
This is absolutely necessary for any hope of mending some semblance of world respect for the United States.

The world needs to know that George W Bush and his Cabinet, those who sold us this war based on LIES, and the United States of America are NOT one and the same.

This was George Bush's War from the start. It was George Bush's war before 9-11 ever happened. Before he chose to lay the blame of 9-11 on Sadaam's doorstep. The LIES of George W Bush is where this horror began and with whom it should also end.

There needs to be an accountability alright. Bush can praise Rumsfeld and keep him on board, but the REAL test for America is where, how, and when, we ourselves will show the world that WE will NOT tolerate another year of George W Bush and the Neocon party that put him in a position of such power.
America needs to deal with Bush's lies and Bush's war.
It is the only way the world may someday view us as a true democracy again.
George W. Bush has harmed our beautiful United States in ways that generations of foreign countries will never forgive.

This makes me sick!

Who Knew of Abuses and When


ASHINGTON, May 6 — Exactly when President Bush and senior officials learned about the abuse of Iraqi detainees has become an issue. Here is what is known about the chronology.

PRESIDENT BUSH According to the White House spokesman, Scott McClellan, Mr. Bush learned about the abuse from Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld. He could not say precisely when, but a senior Pentagon official said Mr. Rumsfeld told Mr. Bush within weeks after the secretary was told of it in mid-January. The information provided to the president was general, Mr. McClellan said, and the Pentagon official said it was not clear whether Mr. Rumsfeld had told Mr. Bush about photographs or what they showed. Mr. Bush said on Wednesday that the first time he saw or heard about the photos was when they appeared on television last week.

SECRETARY RUMSFELD Pentagon officials said the photographs were described in general terms to Mr. Rumsfeld in mid-January, shortly after a soldier gave them to Army officials. American military authorities announced publicly on Jan. 16, without alluding to the pictures, that they had begun an inquiry into allegations that prisoners had been abused at Abu Ghraib. Mr. Rumsfeld said Tuesday that he had read only parts of the report on the case, including its conclusions.

GEN. RICHARD B. MYERS General Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was briefed on the photos in a general sense in mid-January. He was aware of the details no later than mid-April, when he asked CBS News to delay broadcasting the photos and its report on Abu Ghraib. On Sunday, he said he had not read the military's report.
I say toi the Hague with the lot of them!

Conspiracy to commit expansive war comes to mind a crime against peace

Here are the counts from the International War Crimes Tribunal, and yes this is a long read, but needed

The Avalon Project : Indictment : Count One

Short version the Common Plan or Conspiracy, when you read it, replace PNAC for NAZI, and yes it saddnes me to put this up

III. Statement of the Offense
All the defendants, with divers other persons, during a period of years preceding 8 May 1945, participated as leaders, organizers, instigators, or accomplices in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy to commit, or which involved the commission of, Crimes against Peace, War Crimes, and Crimes against Humanity, as defined in the Charter of this Tribunal, and, in accordance with the provisions of the Charter, are individually responsible for their own acts and for all acts committed by any persons in the execution of such plan or conspiracy. The common plan or conspiracy embraced the commission of Crimes against Peace, in that the defendants planned, prepared, initiated, and waged wars of aggression, which were also wars in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances. In the development and course of the common plan or conspiracy it came to embrace the commission of War Crimes, in that it contemplated, and the defendants determined upon and carried out, ruthless wars against countries and populations, in violation of the rules and customs of war, including as typical and systematic means by which the wars were prosecuted, murder, ill-treatment, deportation for slave labor and for other purposes of civilian populations of occupied territories, murder and ill-treatment of prisoners of war and of persons on the high seas, the taking and killing of hostages, the plunder of public and private property, the indiscriminate destruction of cities, towns, and villages, and devastation not justified by military necessity. The common plan or conspiracy contemplated and came to embrace as typical and systematic means, and the defendants determined upon and committed, Crimes against Humanity, both within Germany and within occupied territories, including murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against civilian populations before and during the war, and persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, in execution of the plan for preparing and prosecuting aggressive or illegal wars, many of such acts and persecutions being violations of the domestic laws of the countries where perpetrated.


Count Two Crimes against Peace
The Avalon Project : Indictment : Count Two

V. Statement of the Offense
All the defendants with divers other persons, during a period of years preceding 8 May 1945, participated in the planning, preparation, initiation, and waging of wars of aggression, which were also wars in violation of international treaties, agreements, and assurances.


Count Three: War Crimes

The Avalon Project : Indictment : Count Three


All the defendants, acting in concert with others, formulated and executed a Common Plan or Conspiracy to commit War Crimes as defined in Article 6 (b) of the Charter. This plan involved, among other things, the practice of "total war" including methods of combat and of military occupation in direct conflict with the laws and customs of war, and the commission of crimes perpetrated on the field of battle during encounters with enemy armies, and against prisoners of war, and in occupied territories against the civilian population of such territories.

(Remember Rummy's statement that the Geneva Convention was now quaint and that detainees had no rights? Yes you do)

Count Four, Crimes Against Humanity


The Avalon Project : Indictment : Count Four

This plan involved, among other things, the murder and persecution of all who were or who were suspected of being hostile to the Nazi Party and all who were or who were suspected of being opposed to the common plan alleged in Count One.

(Thhis is scary ain't it... and I do recommend that you all review the full documentary evidence at Yale Univeristy... http://www.stungunresources.com/nuremberg_war_crime_trial.html)

Look up the stuff regarding the Stanford Experiment. When people ask rhetorically if human beings, even non special forces, such as those reservists, require regulations, oversight, and safeguard to ensure they don't act like Nazis towards their fellow human beings, the proper answer is YES every time.

If you don't want people to commit crimes, take away the opportunity to do so.

You do have a point. One does not need to be a sociopath to behave badly in certain very strong situations.

... either the Stanford Prison Experiment or Stanley Milgram's experiments.

The latter show that human behavior within an authoritarian structure can be seduced to be abusive and vicious. The former (Golding) shows how children that ONLY know an authoritarian context recreate it with all of its abuses - even more so because they're incapable of being responsible.

In SPE, we have three factors: (1) the designation of some humans as "bad", (2) power over those "bad" given to an "elite" (with uniforms and everything), (3) shift of responsibility for abusive behavior to the "bad" person (anybody will do, actually).

In Milgram, we see how human beings can abdicate any responsibility for their own behavior when an "authority" substitutes his/her own volition for that of the torturer. After all, it's the "boss's" fault, or the professor's fault, or the sergeant's fault.

We have all of the factors present in the Iraqi situation. The people who self-select for military careers have one thing in common more than any other: gravitation toward an authoritarian culture. People are authoritarians because they get to surrender both control and responsibility for their own behavior. "Ours not to reason why; ours but to do or die."


This, at the heart of it, is what so abominably dangerous about a "volunteer" military: it attracts authoritarians, especially the least well-rounded and least versatile - those least able to put a leash on their own behavior when seduced by "approval."

Just guess what you get when you select only the most authoritarian within an already authoritarian subculture? The "Elite" troops - like the Republican Guard or the SS.

the Army does not atrackt authoritarians, more hearsay I fear

But the administration HAS CREATED the objective conditions for this to happen

Good grief, that's axiomatic. (I agree with much of what you've observed regarding the responsibility for these events. Clearly, the six grunts are fall-guys for the command structure, up to and including the CinC. That does not absolve them of all responsibility for their own acts, for to do so would be to excessively legitimize the very authoritarian mindset that's at issue here.)

Perhaps you don't fully appreciate what an authoritarian is and are (like the majority of people) confusing it with 'autocrat' or 'totalitarian'?

Here's a little bit of reading to put more flesh on the bones of your understanding ...

---

Authoritarian Personality
Elements in Terrorism

Harry Rosenberg

If there is a cause for war in our genes, the authoritarian personality is its manifestation. The authoritarian personality is particularly vulnerable to radicalization. This personality type is expressed by rigidity of views, a strong desire to be told what to do, an equally strong desire to tell lessor mortals what to do, and to see all things in a black and white context. Most terrorists fit this mold exactly.

Most authoritarians are basically good people and lead productive lives in pursuits where their particular rigid styles are appropriate in professions such as accounting, the military, and medicine. As leaders, their narrow uncompromising views not only miss the better solutions, but they alienate their peers as well as those of different persuasions. With enough charisma and deceit, they can sway voters into giving them power even in the most advanced democracies. This happens because most voters themselves have a streak of authoritarianism in their personalities.

Adorno's discovery of a connection between racism/fascism and the authoritarian parenting style led him to propose a personality framework that may be described as follows:

While finding comfort in the identification of submissive behavior towards authority, the authoritarian person directs his/her aggression towards other groups, often racial minorities. This is an attempt to relieve the feeling of personal weakness with a search for absolute answers and strengths in the outside world.

According to Adorno, authoritarian personality is expressed essentially by:

• Excessive conformity
• Intolerance
• Insecurity
• Rigid, stereotyped thought patterns
• Submissiveness to authority
• Superstition

Bin Laden, the Fundamentalist Mullahs, and other terrorist leaders are submissive, if only to Allah. In this sense, they are authentic authoritarian personalities.

Authoritarian personalities result from an upbringing of rigid discipline and conditional affection. Adorno identified the authoritarian personality type as having the following characteristics:

"The authoritarian personality does not want to give orders; their personality type wants to take orders. People with this type of personality seek conformity, security, stability. They become anxious and insecure when events or circumstances upset their previously existing world view. They are very intolerant of any divergence from what they consider to be the normal (which is usually conceptualized in terms of their religion, race, history, nationality, culture, language, etc.) They tend to be very superstitious and lend credence to folk tales or interpretations of history that fit their preexisting definitions of reality (thus the Founding Fathers of the US are conceptualized as supporters of white nationalism.) They think in extremely stereotyped ways about minorities, women, homosexuals, etc. They are thus very dualistic; the world is conceived in terms of absolute right (their way) Vs. absolute wrong (the "other" way whether African American, liberal, intellectual, feminist, etc.)"

Further study of this personality type has since shown that Authoritarians not only like to take orders but they love to give them and to have people they can look down upon. This, of course, can amount to bigotry, racism, sexism, and the like.

Two distinctive behavior patterns are submissiveness and aggressiveness. On the surface, these two patterns seem to be at odds, but in fact they usually coexist in the same individual. The Authoritarian Personality wants to fit into a chain of command and to be told what to do (submissive to a superior), and by the same token, will countenance no flak when giving orders to those in the hierarchy below. At the same time s/he is aggressive toward others, especially those considered to be lesser in some way, of a different faith or ethnicity, or a different species. The Hitler Youth were prime examples. Authoritarians like to be herded like sheep even as they enjoy command like Himmler. That mind set exists across all political, economic, and religious spectra. And it can afflict both genders.

<snip>

The Bush Administration exhibits earmarks of authoritarianism, most obviously in its black-and-white thinking, tolerance for bigotry, and support for religious fundamentalism in its public pronouncements and actions. It was Mr. Bush himself who proclaimed to the world: "You are either with us or against us." He is not the first US president to exhibit authoritarian tendencies.

Islam, through the Qu'ran, Hadith, and Shari'ah, in fact requires:

• Conventionalism
• Submission
• Aggression

These are hallmarks of authoritarian personalities. We should not then be surprised that Islam produces more than its share of terrorists and suicide bombers. Islam does not encourage independent thinking; it values submission to Allah and obedience to all in the "chain of command."

<snip>

The American experiences in the My Lai Massacre and the Kent State upheaval motivated Stanley Milgram to formally study the phenomenon by which people blindly follow orders. What he found is as astonishing as it is arresting. Milgram's subjects were led to think they were experimenters in a teaching method that used pain via electrical shock to punish wrong answers. Milgram's subjects dialed the voltage the subjects were to receive, escalating the voltage with each wrong answer.

Quoting from Milgram:

"'No amount of screams and pleading brought this process of visiting violence upon another to a stop.' Milgram found, surprisingly, that 65% of his subjects, ordinary residents of New Haven, were willing to give apparently harmful electric shocks--up to 450 volts--to a pitifully protesting victim, simply because a scientific authority commanded them to, and in spite of the fact that the victim did not do anything to deserve such punishment."

The authoritarian personality is part of most of us.

<snip>

http://www.roadtopeace.org/opinions/perspectives/extremism/authoritarian_personality.htm

---

No single article can inform one of the common and complex personality habits that pervade a corporation, a bureaucracy, and a military, but we're well advised that humanity is again going to get a "crash course" on the threats posed by an authoritarian world power ... but this time it's one unmatched in the rest of the world.

It's us, Pogo.

Thanks for posting.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

RC

I actually worked on that post, so it's good to get some feedback that it was worth it.

I've been sloughing off on the working on writing good posts thing myself, lately....sort of gotten tired over the past two years....burned myself out at radioleft before I arrived here. I always enjoy reading your posts....Those who take some time in composing powerful, well thought out, logical pieces seem to be moving on.


RC

waste time on nonsense like this? I don't think they would let or have any need for things to get that far out of hand. Anyway, do they bother to take prisoners?

in their armamentarium...

Great guy, but I wouldn't want to get him pissed off. He's a pretty staunch Republican too and probably laughed when he saw the torture photos.

A Rhapsody of Republicanism.

But is also racist, homophobic and downright ignorant when it comes to world affairs.

Oh, and he HATES Jimmy Carter.

sorry for the misspelling

That would be a gross generalization.

a hell of a lot, and also I bet Mr. Canavan knows what happened to missing 911 tapes from the FAA that the controllers made during those hijacked flighs on 911.

Mike Canavan was a three star General and a former commander of Delta force who had just recently retired and taken over the job Director of Security FAA.

I wonder if Canavan was at the hearings today?