AL-JAZEERA: BEHEADING A FAKE

It's a Murdoch rag - but they are reporting on Al-Jazeera...

" In a bizarre twist, the anti-American TV station al-Jazeera is questioning the 'authenticity' of the horrific video of American Nick Berg's beheading - suggesting it's a fake to divert attention from the Iraqi prison abuse scandal.

The station's English-language Web site claims there's not enough blood and 'the body is completely motionless even as the knife is brought to bear - not so much as an instinctive wiggle.'

It doesn't mention Berg's anguished scream.

The article also questions whether terror kingpin Abu al-Zarqawi could have committed the murder, suggesting al-Zarqawi is dead."

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/20863.htm

Are we about to fall down the rabbit hole here, or what?

edit: minor correction

ZOOOMMMMM!

I had some doubts about it as well, especially the timing. Common sense would lead you to believe that at a time when 80% of the American people are disgusted with the torture/abuse going on by misled Americans in Iraq and a day before the senate was to see even more shocking videos and pictures; so shocking they can not risk allowing the American people to see them, yes, at a time when the pressure to pull out the troops the people is so high, Americans are ready to dump the bush team - to do a stupid thing like a public beheading to get all the Americans in line behind the bush teams invasion of iraq and increasing support to get even with Iraqies happens.

Well, it really doesn't make sense--UNLESS-- as a coworker suggested, the Al Quaida WANTS the war in Iraq to continue. Yes, Al Quaida benifits from the war as their apparent goal is to destroy America and they are making progress - "What" you say ? Think about it, they forced America out of Saudi Arabia which is what they orginally wanted and yet they continue, their goal to turn the 1-2 billion Islamic believers against America is going along well and our idiots in charge are being played like a fiddle. Rather than thinking and plannning from the white house we have an almost cult like fanticism going on with decisions coming from beliefsand myths rather than facts, and the enemy of America is using it against them. If America pulls out now it makes them look weak UNLESS Americans throw out the bush team at the same time, then it looks like Americans found out the truth and did the right thing which gives Americans the high moral ground and starts to win back the support of our allies throughout the world. The only 2 ways to win this is destroying every member of the Islam faith or to throw out the bush team! Kil;ling everyone is wrong, America must regain the high moral ground by throwing out the entire bush team.

and Faux News + the US government. You might not like the answer.

Al Jazeera. Its a no-brainer.

but that can be said about plenty of things since the monkey boy got selected.

:eyes:

yep the Clenis...

Shhh... the lookng glass is getting scary

that WAS Vince Foster under one of those robes.

I read the al-Jazeera story -- it was discussed in an earlier thread here. I think it was "fair and balanced" and it contained plenty of criticism of al-Zarqawi and his thugs.

Incidentally, al-Jazeera isn't a TV station, it's a news company, much like Murdoch's own NewsCorp.

A lot of people are discussing various conspiracy theories about the death of young Mr. Berg. We know why that is -- in the past three days, half a dozen conflicting "official" releases have been issued proving only that a huge number of people are lying, spinning, and covering up something.

The only consolation for Berg's family can be summed up in a paraphrase of Nicola Vanzetti's famous line: That last moment belongs to him -- that agony is his triumph. When Berg died, so did the pretense that this war is about anything honorable and just.

The "Freedom Fighters" have again proven themselves thugs. And the Occupation did not find in Nick Berg a martyr, but an accuser.

--bkl

That last moment belongs to him -- that agony is his triumph. When Berg died, so did the pretense that this war is about anything honorable and just.

The "Freedom Fighters" have again proven themselves thugs. And the Occupation did not find in Nick Berg a martyr, but an accuser.

which credits most of the speculation to "bloggers":

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm

much of what they talk about has been talked about here.

there would have been alot more blood going in manny more directions

Those three observations are about all I need notwithstanding that there a many, many more incongruities.

:shrug:

of course. Are you implying it was a fake body, or a fake head, or a fake beheading? Or are you saying for certain that it was his body and it was his head and the two were absolutely separated, on film, by that guy with a limp?

Are you sure about it?

of course. Are you implying it was a fake body, or a fake head, or a fake beheading? Or are you saying for certain that it was his body and it was his head and the two were absolutely separated, on film, by that guy with a limp?

Are you sure about it?

The thread seemed to indicate that he was not beheaded..if that were true, he would be alive??

Yet his body was buried..

That was all...

She also fought off her attackers by firing an M16 with ONE ARM, (the other was broken!) until the gun jammed! :evilgrin:

Oh, wait a minute, oops turns out none of that ever really happened. :evilfrown:

Well I'm sure I can believe this story! I'd be a FOOL not to! :eyes:

I've seen no reports of his family burying him yet. Got a link?

BTW: How did they even know it was Berg's body, when they found him on an overpass in Bagdad this weekend, if his head had been cut off? You would think a positive ID would be a little difficult at that point?

that his family buried him yesterday, the memorial service is this afternoon.

however, the Pentagon would not allow the family to be there when the body arrived.

I have not seen anything else that indicates if the body has even been released to the family yet? And whether or not someone is doing an autopsy, which I believe when someone is murdered is mandatory?

I would be very surprised if the family, would just quickly bury the body and skip a thorough autopsy?

It was pretty fast, it seems. I hope the family got an independent autopsy... just in case.

There is good reason to believe that he was already dead when they beheaded him. That would explain the delay in the tape and the fact that he neither struggled nor bleed profusely.

:hi:

I'm thinking we have a bunch of DU readers over at Al-Jazeera. LOL!

They seem to be on the same track we are regarding Berg's death. What's that phrase... great minds think alike?!

Thanks.

But thanks for your concern!
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

I remember someone here also using the phrase "brought to bear".

Good morning

Seems the FBI is doing an autopsy on Mr. Berg. They will learn that he was dead before the beheading as they will find no aspired blood in his lungs. Of course the results will never be published.....I wonder why

I also wonder if a voice print match could be made from the scream to see if the scream was even that of Mr. Breg. Voice prints are used in criminal investigation on a routeine basis. If the voice is not Mr. Bergs and it were possible to compare voice prints of known agents where he was held, I betcha we would find a match.

I don't know if voice prints are admissable in court. But their use has been vital in assisting in criminal investigations that have led to convictions

Modern forensic science is a very powerful tool. There may be other indicators that can prove he was beheaded after he was murdered by the FBI, CIA or one of the mercenaries hired by this bunch of COWARDS

Most but; not all evidence of strangulation at the site will have been destroyed by the beheading. However there may still be some evidence left as he was beheaded above the typical site on the neck where a garrott would have been used.

They also appeared to be using the wrong type of knife that would normally be carried by an Arabian warrior. The knives I've seen used in these types of executions were curved like a sickle....not the typical U.S. military issue knife I saw in the video. Again Autopsy will show the type of weapon used.

Could it be possible to contact a Berg Family representative informing them of these suspicions. If this were a matter here in this country, it would be enough circumstancial evidence to re-open a criminal case

We demand justice be placed where it belongs. This also will be beneficial to the Berg family case when they file a wrongful death suit against the government and perhaps seek murder charges as well. There would also be great benefit from an independent autopsy.
_________________
That our brothers shall not have died in vain

FREEDOM!
William (Braveheart) Wallace's dying word

I hope the family demands an autopsy. That will answer a lot of questions. The body was returned to Dover on Weds night. However, the Pentagon would not allow the family to be there when the coffin arrived. Slimballs.

Maybe you could send these questions to someone at ANSWER, since the father is a member of that group. It might be a way of getting this info to someone who can use it?

In the meantime, welcome to DU. :hi:

autopsy as well. I would. Wouldn't you?

without doing the autopsy themselves or turning the body over to US Authorities first, since this is a murder case?

If the Berg's have hired a PI, I hope someone sends him to DU, we've collected a lot of evidence for him.

But, I still believe the Bergs would request a second autopsy unless the body gets conveniently lost or something wildly stupid like that.

the junta doctors have a lot of work to do prior to releasing the body.

I don't think they allow families, civilian or military, to greet the bodies at Dover anymore. So it's not surprising that Berg's family wouldn't be there either.

Just another attempt by the * admin to hide the cost of this illegal war! :grr:

Great post. :thumbsup:

I know the Bergs have filed a lawsuit already dealing with Nick's incarceration, I hope they file another for wrongful death.

My concern would be that for national security reasons, discovery would be limited. I agree, an independent autopsy would be the way to go here. I think the Bergs are rightly distrustful of anything the administration says and seem determined to prove it as they seem to have proven the lie that Nick was nevver in US custody. The spin du jour seems to be he was affiliated with Al Qaeda, like they would welcome a Jew in their midst.

It is foolish to think we can be at war on terror or drugs or any such thing any how. It is why these men are used all the time to hate. Each week we have a new man to go after because even our great DOD can not get ahold of some thing really to fight.

If Berg was killed by mercs or CIA operatives before his head was severed why was he killed at all? A sacrifical lamb for the NeoCon war? Was there another reason?

Therein lies the answer to your question.

...by the U. S. military/military intelligence back toward the "terrorists", whoever they may be, and if they even exist. To a certain extent, that's worked. But questions are beginning to build concerning the authenticity of the video and the contents we were supposed to be seeing.

Additionally, his father is pretty involved in the anti-war movement. I wouldn't put it past the NeoCons to attempt to send a rather graphic message to anyone trying to get us out of Iraq.

Additionally, I don't see the CIA's footprints on this particular incident...but, I do see the footprints of the NeoCon, Pentagon-based OSP.

....beatings during interrogation by the CIA or MI.

Remember that there were what, 29?, deaths at the abu graib prison from just the same thing.

......and man do I love it. Screw the freepers

and so far it's been a heck of a ride.

read NYP and then Al Jazeera, and talk about a blatant propagandistic and lying reporting on another news piece.

the NYP has no credibility with me, but this completely transparent display is still disgusting. must remember to print both and blow them up to poster sized proportioned with highlighted errors next time i encounter someone who believes NYP.

Haha -- bullSHIT! if anyone is anti-american, its murdoch, for encouraging war to kill innocent americans and iraqis (and afghanis, and brits, and etc.etc.etc.)

so why don't our brilliant news organizations send it to various experts to determine the authenticity of the voice, the blood/lack of, the odd way berg looked in front of his "killers" that made it appear patched together, the height and clothing of the 5 standing behind him, the accents they used, and all the other things that cast a shadow over the tape.

wouldn't that be one hell of a story for cnn, msnbc, cbs, et.al.? experts coming out and saying there are problems with what's on the tape? it's a story that would blow the thing sky high and have the bushies spinning from now till election day.

so what's the problem? why won't our chickenshit media touch this with a ten foot pole? why won't someone investigate it further? the longer people stand aside and let this pass, the greater hold bush and his gang of crooks have on us.

is not discussed in the American press. I have always said it would be counter-productive for the general public to give the DU much attention. It will only marginalize legitimate points that are discussed here and eventually leak into the public discussions, such as the paper ballot receipts.

While I understand the enjoyment some here have speculating and hyperbolizing, the DU is obviously not mainstream.....not even in the general Dem community. As others have said, that is why it is the "Underground".

When Rush started reading sections of the DU on the air I was worried but he has since quit. Thank God. In case you never heard him, he always grabbed the wildest posts or the most venom filled. You all know what I am talking about, I know we have all read certain posts before they have been deleted. If even we can't tolerate them, how do you think the general public would view them? The same goes for the over the top tinfoilers.

As I said, I understand the need and desire for the DU forum, but I continue to hope that we stay "underground" and not become yet another tool to be used to marginalize and degrade legit concerns that get discussed here.

Flame away. :spank:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

from junior's crime cabal. This guy is good at knee jerk reactions, 'eh? Always the same tune.

with you demave. All it takes is for a few "crazy leftist posts" to hit the mainstream and the DU becomes just another "radical" website with no integrity.

Most of the posts here that honestly question certain events, most often than not point to outside news sources. We should point to them as often as possible. Nudging the media in the right direction using evidence based in fact, not just random rants which can be taken out of context and used against us.

I have read some excellent posts that have been thouroghly researched, pointing back several years even to news items that have been forgotten. Nothing gets a message across more than being able to back up an assertion with some 'reliable' based source.

If we have learned anything -- ANYTHING -- it is that we cannot fear what the right wing is going to say about us. It leads to silence. It leads to political death.

One thing Howard Dean did was wake everyone up. Dean gave people something to agree with, something to shoot for, something to say, "Ya know, I agree with that." Before him, we had only DINOs and pathetic, go-along Democrats that slither around in fear and run as Republican Lite in elections.

No more. We will not retreat, we will not be silent, we will not retreat an inch. Do you think some of the things on the DU are conspiratorial? Have you been paying attention to current events these past 2 1/2 years?

If you're not outraged, then you haven't been paying attention.

We need to wake up the public, but in a rational way.

How often do you listen to the raving lunatic shouting on the street corner? Do you not more often listen to someone who states his/her case in a calm and intelligent manner? And than backs it up with evidence?

By all means we should not fear the right, but we should not play into their hands.

I don't think we're trying to convince any of us here about what's going on - we're already here. It's the unconvinced middle, those who don't know. Those who are already being told that the left are angry, crazy, hate filled people.

What's better?

THE GOVERNMENT IS EVIL AND MUST BE DESTROYED!!

Or

Here is why we need a change in the current administration....

Pointing out inconsistencies is a far cry from automatically accusing our own government organizations of carrying out the crime. Not that I think it's out of the realm of possibilities(I'm very aware of US history of covert ops), but truly the evidence for such a charge is seriously weak.

But then, you also have to realize that SOME in the right(although I also see this on DU) have this need to lump everyone with a label, and use a few people to label the whole group. Witness some of the latest outrage to the Berg killing, which went something like this: "THEIR culture supports this. THEY hate america. Nuke THEM all". So, of course, they're going to latch onto the nuttiest posts on DU and project that onto every liberal.

So, demdave, it doesn't matter HOW much ammo you give to that type of person. They only need one, or in some cases, they'll just create one out-of-context.

It all fits into a nice, cookie cutter, us vs. them package.

For gosh sakes Rumsfeld had to PAY Lynndie England to strip him naked and lead him around like a dog, but she refused to tie him up and smack him around while having sex with her beau Charles Graner, not for any price, so Rumsfeld is upset because she did it to the Iraqi prisoners for FREE!

How's that demdave? I hope Rush reads it on the air.

Get this like this lady is some kind of interloper or something. From what I can tell she spends much time watching M.E. TV but is also the an editor for the CNN network. Does she spend all that time figuring out ways to spin stories or what? Enough about her though, cause she justs seems to be giving a nuanced story about some of this, but is good for a clue.

It sure sounds like that one flavor broad brush sometimes does get a little tricky to operate.

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_crime&Number=1468521&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1#Post1468521
Octavia Nasr debunks Washington's Al-Zarqawi & Al Qaeda claims in Berg Beheading Case

(snip)
O'BRIEN: Well, let me ask you this. You've had a chance to really listen to this tape and get a sense who might be responsible, just by deciphering, say, accents. And certainly, there in the Arab world, they're very attuned to that. And given the fact of who this may or may not be, does that have some effect on how it is being played?

NASR: Yes, and if you listen to these voices that we're hearing on Arab networks, Iraqis are condemning this execution. And they're saying these are foreigners. These are not Iraqis. They do not represent us and so forth.

Now, of course, the original claim was that Zarqawi is the actual man who performed this execution. Our experts listened to the accent, as you said, and they determined the accent is not Jordanian...

O'BRIEN: He is a Jordanian who is working supposedly, allegedly, at the behest of al Qaeda in Iraq. So go ahead.

NASR: Right, he is very close to bin Laden, and works, you're right, as an agent of al Qaeda in Iraq. Now, the accent is not Jordanian so that takes the Jordanian element out of the story immediately.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, now one final thought here. You did a very careful translation of your own, of the statement. And in it, you see no reference to al Qaeda. And yet the official U.S. government translation does. Explain how that happened.

NASR: Oh, I find it very interesting, because out of the blue, there is a mention of al Qaeda on the U.S. government translation. It says: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" Any speaker of the Arabic language is going to notice a difference between the word al Qaeda, which means "the base," and al qaed, which means "the one sitting, doing nothing."

My translation says: "Is there any excuse for the one who sits down and does nothing?" Basically they're telling people, you have no excuse for not doing anything, for not acting and defending Islam and so forth. Whereas the U.S. government translation has this factual error, I'm sure it's an honest mistake, but basically it sort of adds al Qaeda to the statement, which is not on the statement.

O'BRIEN: All right, Octavia Nasr, we don't know exactly how that got in there. We'll try to get more on that. We appreciate you bringing that all to light and appreciate your insights, of course.
(snip)

That to me is the main point. Clever guessing from various and questionable tidbits is inadequate and the people in charge squelching all real news know that.

The latest(?) was a detail that the Iraqis picked him up because of an Israeli stamp in his passport, suggesting to me a potential cover story that old anti-Israel grudges might have caused all of Berg's trouble with the locals. Suggests in fact that even after(if it happened!) FBI interrogation, someone in the police decided this guy would be a good target.

Yes, closer examination of anything makes things seem very complex and mysterious.

The thing is, you won't get any such investigation. They will practically just shrug it off as suicide on Berg's part and accept the surface analysis of the video uncritically.

How credible is anyone these days when Al Jazeera makes a better intellectual case for its interpretation than those writing off the obvious widespread prisoner mistreatment as "hazing"? In the seventies it was easy for Americans who saw the sordid mess dragging "patriotic" America around a useless slaughter to begin siding with "ant-American" entities or news sources. It was never clearly resolved for the country as a whole. This moral mess needs some serious light to avoid this type of insane division. Under the cover of assuming half of America(but which) are anti-American hypocrites, a few of usual suspects have hijacked the nation and are going for the throat of the world.

Face it. Since 2000 we have no system of law or accountability from the top down as far as it wishes to extend its power. We only have communication of dissent and contrarian empirical evidence aided by the massive failure and incompetence of the quasi-dictatorial types. Were Bushco wildly successful we would have nothing but lies and dictatorship. That seems evident to me.

The Berg file is a duty of simple digging and archiving. It is doubtful anything for any reason will lead to a proper investigation this year. Just one more for the memory hole.

Did anybody else see this???

http://www.breakfornews.com/NickBergEnemiesList.htm

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0405/12/lol.02.html

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: No. Arab viewers of the big networks, as well as the local TV stations did not see the actual execution. They did see at the beginning of this tape, just like we saw here on CNN and most Western networks, you saw the beginning of the tape right before the beheading. They reported on it, and as a side story. It certainly isn't playing as a big story or as the story.

O'BRIEN: That's very interesting. When we hearken back to Danny Pearl, "The Wall Street Journal" reporter who was killed in Pakistan in 2002, the entirety of that, which included a beheading, was shown on these outlets. What happened? What changed?

NASR: What changed is the learning. And also the reaction to showing gruesome pictures and atrocities and the reaction from viewers and authorities alike. Also, it has been a few years since then. Back then, there was no Al-Arabiya. Al-Arabiya is brand new. It started a few weeks before the war last year.

Again, it's a learning process. It seems that the networks are responding to their viewers. Remember, Al Jazeera is seen all over the world, the Americas, Africa, Asia, Australia, all over the world. And viewers there are not accepting of these images as people in the Arab world are.

O'BRIEN: Well, let me ask you this. You've had a chance to really listen to this tape and get a sense who might be responsible, just by deciphering, say, accents. And certainly, there in the Arab world, they're very attuned to that. And given the fact of who this may or may not be, does that have some effect on how it is being played?

NASR: Yes, and if you listen to these voices that we're hearing on Arab networks, Iraqis are condemning this execution. And they're saying these are foreigners. These are not Iraqis. They do not represent us and so forth.

Now, of course, the original claim was that Zarqawi is the actual man who performed this execution. Our experts listened to the accent, as you said, and they determined the accent is not Jordanian...

O'BRIEN: He is a Jordanian who is working supposedly, allegedly, at the behest of al Qaeda in Iraq. So go ahead.

NASR: Right, he is very close to bin Laden, and works, you're right, as an agent of al Qaeda in Iraq. Now, the accent is not Jordanian so that takes the Jordanian element out of the story immediately.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, now one final thought here. You did a very careful translation of your own, of the statement. And in it, you see no reference to al Qaeda. And yet the official U.S. government translation does. Explain how that happened.

NASR: Oh, I find it very interesting, because out of the blue, there is a mention of al Qaeda on the U.S. government translation. It says: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" Any speaker of the Arabic language is going to notice a difference between the word al Qaeda, which means "the base," and al qaed, which means "the one sitting, doing nothing."

My translation says: "Is there any excuse for the one who sits down and does nothing?" Basically they're telling people, you have no excuse for not doing anything, for not acting and defending Islam and so forth. Whereas the U.S. government translation has this factual error, I'm sure it's an honest mistake, but basically it sort of adds al Qaeda to the statement, which is not on the statement.

O'BRIEN: All right, Octavia Nasr, we don't know exactly how that got in there. We'll try to get more on that. We appreciate you bringing that all to light and appreciate your insights, of course.

NASR: You bet.

O'BRIEN: Kyra.

I can't believe I'm even writing in this thread.. but.. Obviously, poor Nick Berg was murdered, decapitated.. BUT.. there are major problems with the video supposedly. It's out of sync, the video is edited very much. The scream could have been added. I would never watch the video.. ever. But.. if people say that the body was motionless as this was happening, if you were letting out a blook-curdling scream, wouldn't you body be moving or struggling against this?

I think the assertions, as I believe them to be, are that 1) Mr. Berg was killed before the second part of the video was shot. 2) The man that the US is using to blame Al Quaida does not appear to the man on the tape. He doesn't appear to be moving as though he has a full leg prosthesis, and his accent is wrong. 3) The US wants desperately to pin this on Bin Laden, so they are willing to say that the man is referring to Al Qaida, when linguisists are saying that is not what he said. Does anyone remember the story from Richard Clarke's book? The one where White House staff came back to Bush telling him that Saddam had no link to Bin Laden, Al Quaida, or 9/11, and he said "wrong answer". It would behoove the White House to find a way to pin this on Al Quaida, it would make this unjust war look as though it had something to do with the war on terrorism.

I am not in a position to suggest that the US had anything to do with Berg's death directly. I do question the accounts of his detainment, and I do question the veracity of pinning this on Al Quaida.