IRAQ LATEST: SOLDIERS SWAP SICK DVDS OF IRAQI KILLINGS

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14246653&method=full&siteid=86024&headline=iraq-latest--soldiers-swap-sick-dvds-of-iraqi-killings-name_page.html

A FORMER Scots soldier last night revealed how gruesome souvenir footage of battlefield deaths is being swapped by Coalition troops.

The 36-year-old ex-reservist served for six weeks with an international security firm in Iraq. He told how sick DVDs showing US troops killing Iraqis in battle were exchanged by soldiers. And he said: 'Americans are sticking video cameras on top of their tanks while engaged in a firefight.'

The images include grainy footage shot through a nightscope showing an American helicopter gunship killing a wounded Iraqi as he crawls from a burning truck.

US troops copy the video footage onto DVDs and pass them to Coalition troops, including the British. Some of the shocking images are being brought back to the UK by troops returning from the Gulf, while others are sent by email.

Sharing vacation movies, this is the way of life for our troops.
No War Crimes, No foul.

No foul...

:puke:

Is that is how it will be spun by the Inhofers...

:puke: is right.

This is going to be a bunch of messed up people coming from this occupation back into US mainstream society. Will they ever feel normal again? So many lives will be screwed up in this farce of a war! :shrug:

Hey komplex-- Welcome to Du! :hi:

were these soldiers had after 911. Of course, they were after Al Quaida, writing on the bombs "compliments" of New York City, etc., when they were bombing the heck out of Afghanistan.

Then, we get into this illegitimate war of Bushes. I remember Rumsfield having a press conference everyday, and then Bush joking about him being a Matinee idol.

Also, the day our troops finally made it into Baghdad, and they were pulling down that statue of Saddam. Iraqis and Americans working for the same goal. Then, before they knew it, the whole place was falling apart. They were allowing looting and had not put Marshall Law into order. No one was keeping law and order. They just let these people go nuts. And I remember Rumsfield saying, "What do we expect. Oppressed people, like the Iraqis, had no other way to express their oppression and their frustrations after being under the iron hand of this horrible dictator. They were allowed to practically strip the walls down in the palaces and we were told the museums and nobody said anything. Our troops were told to leave them alone. Well, by leaving them alone, things got ugly.

I found Rumsfield's comments odd because in this country, if Black Americans loot and pillage and destroy stores and homes in protest of either police brutality (among other things), It is not stated it is because they have been oppressed by the police in that city or that they are an oppressed people, or that they were treated unfairly in some way. They are made out to look like criminals and thief's.

Can anyone explain the difference to me?

Another thing I remember is what the soldiers kept saying on their way across Iraq without much resistance. That is when they had the embedded reporters. Time after time after time, no matter what soldier the media talked to, he/she would say, "The closer we get to Baghdad, the closer we are to going home."

I do not believe our soldiers went to war with these ideas in their heads. However, after over a year of the brutality of these people, the lack of leadership, the lack of supplies needed for all of the troops, and the lack of stress relief, they are probably numb to it all too.

History may show by them videotaping these horrible things just how ugly war is. Our news will not show anything graphic; however, the rest of the world sees how things happen in a war. But, we are the DEMOCRACY????

All of this can only be blamed on one person: George W. Bush. His hatemongering and vile amoral actions have corrupted nearly an entire generation of youthful Americans. Those returning from this war in Iraq will never, psychologically speaking, be right again. Some may never be able to integrate into society again. Others may commit violent crimes on innocent U.S. Citizens due to psychological damage, and it can all be laid at the feet of this disgustingly sick, poor excuse for a human being and his vile cohorts he calls an "Administration". (More like an "Administration of Evil" if you ask me.)

paid big bucks and further privatize the US Military, as is the case now.

Just wait 'til this comes home.

...I think the soldiers actually DOING this share in the blame.

After all, they're, at minimum, 18 years old, and b*sh hasn't been in power for 18 years (though it sure feels like it).

Let's face it - America has been sick for decades. This is nothing new, save for the new technology of DVDs and digital cameras. Imagine what we'd have seen from Viet Nam had these existed back then.

or Natl Guardsman with families. Who never expected involvment in a full scale war when they signed up.

Bush is 100% responsible. When these kids come to their senses, they still have to live with the reality of their actions, if they have any conscience left at all.

As you already mentioned, this is Vietnam all over again.

That it is-

I play video games, and I know the difference between right and wrong.

It's kinda like school shootings. Many people like to blame video games, or violent movies, or whatever boogeyman they prefer.

Well, I was a lot like the Columbine kids. No close friends, picked on in school (and beaten up every day for two years in grammar school), my parents were alcoholics, and on and on.

My dad kept two rifles in the house. Not even locked up. I knew he stored the shotgun shells in his top drawer. I learned how to shoot at age 9 (Dad was usually drunk when we went, too).

I never took a gun to school and blew people away. Why? I know the difference between right and wrong.

Sorry, the troops who do these kinds of things DO NOT DESERVE OUR SUPPORT. If I know what's wrong, they should, too.

As much as I want to see that traitor hang for his actions, b*sh is not 100% responsible. The troops who kill unarmed men, or snipe kids in Fallujah, or sodomize detainees with fluorescent lights, are responsible for their actions. "Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg, and it doesn't work now.

I feel for them, but they made their choices, and they have to face the consequences.

Columbine is not analogous to the Iraqi war. <sigh>

Here is an interesting read broadening the scope of responsibility:


http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040524/usnews/24leadall.htm

I'm not. To be perfectly clear: b*sh, rumsfeld, and their fellow traitors need to be tried for war crimes and, where applicable, hung in the public square.

However, that does not mean those soldiers who do commit war crimes - and I am not saying it is every single soldier - must not also be held accountable for their actions.

Every soldier who commits a war crime has the choice, up to the point of actually committing the crime, of either going ahead or refusing. Their duty is to refuse to follow illegal and immoral orders. If they go ahead anyway, they are culpable for their actions.

They are taught the Geneva Conventions. If they cannot follow the law, they have made their choice. It's sad, but sadness does not give them a pass.

Consider Darby, who helped leak these photos. He is an example of a soldier we should support. Those who happily (see England's grinning face) violate the Geneva Convention, even under order to do so, have made their decision.

As another poster's signature says: NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.

No one.

Let the information flow before condemning anyone.

Remember the troops were told they are Above the Law via Rumy's special army training unit.

and also this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x560095

They were taught the Geneva Conventions.

They violated those laws.

It does not matter what Skeletor told them, they are still responsible for their own actions.

It sounds to me like you're having some trouble with the soldiers being blamed. If so, I can understand that. My dad is ex-USAF, AFSOC (Air Force Special Operations Command). He did 24 years enlisted, made top rank. Smart (a flight engineer on AC-130s), funny, a good guy. I love him, and have a good relationship with him after many years of being distant.

He was involved in some nasty things, though. Grenada, Panama, the first Gulf War massacre, Haiti, and a number of other U.S. military 'interventions'.

Innocent people died in many of those actions.

Dad wasn't a gunner, thankfully. Still, when I first watched The Panama Deception and saw the bodies and mass graves the U.S. caused, I cried to know my dad was part of it.

I can understand not wanting the troops to actually be a part of the madness. Unfortunately, they are - and if they commit war crimes, they only sink deeper into the horror that is war. They become an indistinguishable part of the terrible tapestry woven by lunatic leaders.

We see in technicolor and all the gradations of gray between black and white. I therefore will always be reluctant to paint with a broad brush making blanket statements that all the offenders be punished severely for what they've done.

True responsibility begins at the top.. as the days go by and more is revealed in newsreports concerning the implementation of a strategic plan created by Rumsfeld, Carbone and Gonzales to exact specific tortures, wisdom dictates waiting until all the facts are in and made public whereby blame can be assessed fairly and justly..as well as the appropriate punishments metered to all concerned.

From what I have read over the last several days, as far as, the collaboration between Rumsfeld, Gonzales and Bush designing a secret dept circumventing the rules of the Geneva Convention. The grunts in the military may very well be exempt from punishment according to the rules they thought they were under at the time. It's too soon to speculate what the resolution will be especially if this becomes a War Crimes Trial at the Hague. One of the Hague's duties will be as the official hair splitter when it comes to rendering blame and exacting punishment for crimes against humanity...

So for now, I will continue to keep an open mind, because that is how we learn.

I'm also not letting the soldiers who abused Iraqi prisoners off the hook.

The punishment should fit the crime. These were crimes, and everyone - including the soldiers - should be punished accordingly.

You say you have an open mind, but to be honest it sounds like you want to excuse the soldiers, and that is just not acceptable. It sucks, but they must be held accountable as well. Period. Sorry if you disagree, but that's just the way it has to be, or we do not believe in the rule of law.

Especially as I watch you both working towards concensus.

I totally respect the other's perspective. This is a good exchange, in my mind. I appreciate the conversation - glad you're getting something out of it, too!

:)

However, it's becoming quite apparent Bush IS 100% responsible for the torture and abuse. He orchestrated it, approved it, then ordered it. The only caveat I see so far in this compendium of horrors is (playing the devil's advocate for a second) it appears the soldiers involved were told (not that I'm condoning what they did) with great justification as far as legalities are concerned, they were immune to prosecution and must follow orders. My next concern is what havoc has Bush wreaked on these soldiers psychologically. Even today, Lyndie still doesn't believe she's done anything wrong! What about six months from now? I mean is this girl permanently damaged because her moral values have suffered a form of "shock and awe" therapy prescribed by hier Bush, that her sense of morality will remain permanently desensitized.

no, I don't believe this is as cut and dry as many would easily believe. If anything, Lyndie's actions are repugnant but on the flip side she herself has become an abused child-- abused and betrayed by her Commander and Chief. He made sure he kept his hands clean while insisting she do his dirty work for him.

IRAQ-NAM, is a ruthless, vicious place that asks No Quarter and Gives None.

It is ruled by Viceroy Pontius Bremer appointed by Cheney Caesar, in the year of Our Lord Two
thousand Three A. D.

Death here rides a Pale Horse.

Death claims in no particular order, the Innocent, the Guilty, the Unlucky and the Careless.

When asked about how he felt about bombing civilians, he replied:--"We are not romantic people! We are the Sega generation!"

Placing all of the blame on Bush is ridiculous and diverts the struggle away from what should be its true aim (that is, meaningful difference, and not just a coat of paint thrown on the outside).

If you look at the book 'Addicted to War', you'll see a picture of American soldiers standing on top of a mountain of Phillipino skeletons.

I don't disagree that the soldiers who do this share some of the blame; but I also think that a mutated, repressed conscience is a nearly inevitable byproduct of intense combat.

Perhaps all the more so, when you have an excess of hi-tech power, as compared to the other side.

They are old enough to accept personal responsibility for their actions. It is very sad, however, that they have no compassion for
other people.

Viet Nam all over again.

...the news media was allowed access to Vietnam. These bozos figured they could just put a cork in that and be done. But a leak has sprung called cheap digital technology.

How ironic.

and why we have to press our politicians to get this over with as quickly as possible.

Start at the top...Impeach Bush and his consortium of natural born predators and remove him from office.

This will set an example to our soldiers that what Bush has done is WRONG...and what is happening to them is also WRONG. I haven't a doubt in the world, the torture and killing of civilians is corrupting the minds of our military. Bush is responsible, hold his feet to the fire while we still can!

impeach him now

it goes back at the minimum to the idea that greed is good and that merely opposing sexual perversity means that you are moral.

Most certainly the soldiers are responsible for their actions, and should be held accountable (if for no other reason than to demonstrate to other soldiers that such actions are reprehensible and will not be tolerated). However, the blame goes much higher up and deeper than the soldiers.

The majority of these "soldiers" are young kids. They age between 20 and 35. They've killed people. They've seen their friends killed. Psychologically... they are, to be blunt, f*cked up because of this war. I don't think they (at least not the majority) wanted to see a war take place. That was entirely Bush and his Administrations doing. They placed these young adults in these horrible situations, which created to extreme psychological damage.

*NONE* who come home from Iraq will ever be completely the same again. Some will be worse than others, however it will be an experience that *NONE* of them will forget, and a experience that they will be forced to live with for the rest of their lives. Some may not even be able to reintegrate into society, and some who do still may be prone to violent actions. (Timothy Mcveigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing anyone?)

So in essence Bush has put a giant stain on nearly an entire generation of young people. He entered a war that was illegal. His motives were unjust and amoral. The whole Iraq war was pre-meditated, and even in the pre-meditation it was badly planned. He is not only an incompetent leader; he is also a sinister and corrupt leader. He is no better than Saddam Hussein.

NT!

They will be damaged for life, whether they serve time for their actions or not.

Fabulous post. Thank you.

The buck stops at the door of the White House, period.

Some of these troops have really made use of technology with the Internet,digital cameras, CD downloads and DVD players.

To be honest I'm kind of glad someone's documenting the war like this. I think of the Vietnam footage I've seen and it's interesting to think that years from now students might sit in their classes and watch these videos. What a way to bring war home to those who have never experienced it before.

I realize that's not what the soldier's intend, but still....

The "embedded" journalists would never have been allowed to disseminate this kind of footage. Soldiers armed with personal video cameras will show us what the "Real Deal" was like in Iraq.

which I suspect is not at all unlikely.

requiring all our soldiers to be equipped with pinhole high-definition cameras, and a secure video uplink to receive and store all the video at central command, to be analyzed by another branch of government.

That way, we would have constant oversight. Even when in the field.

It's just a thought.

before they get all "rah-rah" about it.

she is anti-abortion. I told her I was too; however, I was pro choice. She cannot grasp the difference).

Anyway, her husband is a Rush Limbaugh, never reads the paper, Bush is a perfect president kinda of guy. Yeah, the kind that you could actually bring yourself to kill him.

Anyway, he is so pro this war and says the soldiers need to quit their whining and do the job they signed up for. Well, he is 38 now which makes him too old to enlist (he says), but he always bragged he would love to be a sniper.

Since they are privatizing the military with companies like Blackwater and Mercenaries, I told him his dream can finally come true. I emailed him and told Blackwater was hiring, he would make a killing (no pun intended), and he could live out his dream of being a sniper. He did not have to be in the military to help his oh-so-great president Bush.

I really poured it on thick because he is such a staunch supporter of this war, Bush, the Bush Administration, Cheney, anything Republican. I told him the least he could do was this since he supported this war so much. After all, there were young men and women dieing over there. Dieing over there fighting people so they can have Democracy shoved down their throat. CRAZY.

Well, to make a long story short (sorry), I waited for his email to see how he was going to try to get out of this one. It took him a couple of days before he emailed me back and said he was too old and too fat and they would not hire him. (He is 38, 6'0", and weighs like 190 lbs. She he is not too old or too fat).

I told him how lame his excuse was. I then strongly suggested to him that he needs to shut down his rhetoric about being pro war, after all, he is not willing to possibly sacrifice anything, so why should he expect our young men and women to continue to fight in Bush's illegitimate war.

He has pretty much shut up about everything. Ahhhh, that felt good.

Hell, there's a film record of the D-Day invasion, we should damn well be documenting this, too. I'm GRATEFUL to the soldiers for videotaping this stuff and swapping it around with DVDs. There's a much greater chance of this footage making it into the public record in a timely manner than the censored material from "embedded journalists".

disgusting.:puke:

It resonates.

:puke:

with them and hope they can stop the killing they have been trained to do. A high percentage comes home and kills his wife. The pictures will leak out and maybe that is good. Except for their court-marshal. Never take a picture of the crime when Bushco and the Pentagon are going to flush you down the drain and claim it all on just a few rotten apples. The next bushel is about to come in.

who find these pictures in their spouses belongings will not be able to deal with it. It would be hard to go to bed with himagain if I saw him killing someone or taping someone being beaten or killed.

I was still in elementary school during the height of the Vietnam War. Was the country as polarized as it is during this time? How did we make things better?

All it takes is one to be released onto foreign operated KaZaa!

Shit, half of the photos from Vietnam and WWII were taken by soldiers.

And when it comes to "trophies" soldiers have been doing such things for thousands of years!

What's the point of hoping the human race evolves? Why stay in a primitive state? Why not become something better than a criminal?

how dare anyone question their actions - reading this thread makes me thing that a thousand ted ralls have taken over DU.

and my oh my, what is rush going to say, how very embarrassing for us all.

If this article is correct, it will only be a matter of time before one of these DVDs turns up somewhere.

War is nothing but perverted reality TV to some people. Don't they understand people are dieing in Iraq? Nearly 700 Americans have given their lives for Bush's folly. Who knows how many thousands of Iraqis?

they have probably never read a book about the ethical aspect or even the personal stories of Vietnam or WWII. They were born after and why would they bother to go backwards when they can get excited about the perfect place kick of the afternoon or the new 'stuff' that just reached the shelves that they will buy as soon as they can.

The best thing that can be done for them is to let them know that there are people who are vehemently against the war and to slowly and surely provide the ethical context for the war.

We are speaking about our concern because we are patriots.
How can anyone ask us to demonstrate loyalty for killing?
How can anyone not expect us to be concerned about them.

I only know one person who fell apart after Vietnam. And I knew nothing to suggest to heal because I couldn't begin to understand how it was for him because he couldn't express it - just showed it - terror and grief.

Filming it was cocky - passing it around is diabolical. This is serious deterioration and demonstrates the hypocrisy of our nation.

Yes it's cocky, but what do you expect from a bunch of 18~25 year olds, with unlimited power. They are taking video from their battles, the SOB's on the other end would kill the soldiers if given half a chance. If they are swapping videos of them torturing Iraqis, raping or pillaging then we could have outrage.

This is just an outgrowth of the chest thumping that we see on the playing fields, political conventions, movies and Rap videos. The attitude is the same, the situation is different.

There are certain things worth getting outraged about, AbuG Prison, the lack of WMD's, doing the war on the cheap, use of civilian contractors. Swapping home movies of what I did stuck in this hellhole is not something to concerned about.

Look at the videos as a way to prevent War Crimes, I'm willing to bet that the soldiers are watching their P's and Q's after the evidence for AbuG got out. They won't know who's videotaping them.

People here in the US buy "Banned from TV," or "Faces of Death" videos.

These people were over there, they have every right to videotape what they did and they can do whatever they want with thier own property.