U.S. military recruiters' new pitch is aimed at the parents

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/living/education/6474788.htm

Ask Mark Jones how he's doing and he says, "I'm living a dream."

Jones, 35, is the founder and CEO of his own VIP protection service. He's an avid skydiver, a competitive ice-sculptor, and a professional cook. And he says he picked up all these skills in one place - the U.S. Army.

--snip--

A new Pentagon recruiting ad campaign, featuring Jones and four other role models, aims to persuade more parents to see the military as a winning option for their children. Parents usually can make or break the deals that recruiters want their offspring to sign.

But according to a 2002 Pentagon survey, most parents today view military service as a last resort, far behind continuing school and finding a job. The exceptions tend to be parents like Jones' who have served in uniform themselves, and their numbers are shrinking in these days of a downsized, all-volunteer military.

Growing parental bias, or even just ignorance of the military, threatens to compound the military's, and especially the Army's, difficulties attracting all the high-quality recruits it needs to staff and maintain increasingly sophisticated equipment and meet growing commitments in dangerous places such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

19...

if they pitched the military as a Bush Recession employment opportunity.

"Parents, you never thought it would happen to you: your young, unemployed offspring has moved back into your empty nest and it looks like he'll never leave. But don't lose hope! The U.S. Military is a great opportunity, both for you AND your young, unemployed offspring. You can have your TV and sanity back now if you just send your kid down to your local recruiter's office!"

You've got to hand it to Rove.

Ooops! Or, is it now "Be an army of one"?

:silly:

don't send your sons or daughters to Iraq, please. Put your kid's life/ importance way up above a mysterious war/based on lies on the other side of the world. My brother dropped out of college after two years to join the army in Vietnam in the 60's. He was shot in the head. A helicopter pilot, (Medi-vac), who never flew again, in any aircraft.

My brother. He survived. Your son/daugher may not.

Why the hell are we over there? Keep asking that question. If he/she wants to be patriotic, tell him/her to VOTE - not to join THIS army. There may be others that will need them. But this one is for the wrong reasons.

In the Navy, I was a fire controlman, which means that I was responsible for the operation and maintenance of the weapons firing system. Specifically, the Aegis Radar Display system. To get this job I had to go through almost two years of the Navy's Electronics training. That's eight hours a day, five days a week of electronics traning for close to two years. Followed by four years of hands on experience working on some of the most sophisticated electronics systems used by the U.S. Military.

After I left the Navy, I found that all of this training and experience qualified me for about 10 different jobs. Unfortunately, they all were already taken, so I decided to go back to school and get my BSEE degree.

When I graduated in 1996, back when companies were still hiring, I had several Job Recruiters suggest, and sometimes even request that I leave my military experience off my resume. Why, because many employers in the U.S. do see the military service as being a last resort type of thing. They don't see it as having any real relavence to real world employment. And to be perfectly honest, I somewhat agree with them.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy that I decided to enlist and I am thankful for the years that I served, but I don't feel that the skills I learned in the Navy has had any real impact on the job I do now.

The military is a great place to go when you need "some time to figure things out." Which is exactly where I was when I joined. It offers security and in a sense it also offers stability. What it doesn't offer is a decent wage or any "real world" experience. You might get yourself killed, but you won't be fired as long as a warm, breathing body shows up every morning for work. That's pretty much all that is required of you in the military.

So, after all of this time, what is it that I'm trying to say? Just this, most parents already react with pride when their child or children join the Military, because they see it as a "growth experience." However, if the military really wants to change the perception of the military as a service of last resort, they need to concentrate less on the parents and more on the business communitites who aren't hiring ex-military personnel. When the business community starts to treat military service as something special, so will the rest of the community.

Look at the example from above, Mark Jones, 35, gets out of the Military and can't find anyone to offer him a job that builds on his military experience. So he starts his own company, which probably has as a headquarters a small unused closet somewhere in his wifes house, and hires himself as his only paid employee because no one else was offering him a decent job doing what he learned to do in the military.

...(I)f the military really wants to change the perception of...(being) a...last resort, they need to concentrate...on the business communitites who aren't hiring ex-military personnel...

Look at the example from above...(he) got out of the military and (couldn't) find anyone to offer him a job...So he starts his own company...

I'm willing to be that at least two of the other "role models" are similarly self-employed. The OTHER flaw in this campaign's logic is that the "example" LIVED THROUGH his military service!

The real ad slogan should really be: "Your kids can look forward to fame and fortune after serving in the military...if they live!"

rocknation

...did you spend in the military?

US Army (Personnel Admin. Spec.) 1982-1997
BSCS SUNYIT Utica/Rome 1997-1998.

Before deciding to go back to school, I found myself competing for $25,000/yr. jobs against people with business admin. BS's, retired USAF lieutenant colonels, and other people WAY more qualified than me. Yep, the Army prepares you for a real career. Right. And I'm the Pope.

Damn good thing I pursued that OTHER degree at night school (BS liberal arts and sciences, Regents College) - when I had the opportunity (a lot of folks spend too much time in the field).

IT AIN'T WORTH IT! You ETS, retire, whatever, and START OVER at entry level. At some point, you get a little too old to start over.

:wtf:

P.

Stay at home with your Mommy.

She loves you. The Army does NOT.

"get off your soory generation X ass and Die for the Bush Crime Family oil possesion". Man are these people sick.

And so forth...

P.

Damn Government will take your guns away in this country! Show your children the joy of firearms. Join the Army!

That or "sick of the sight of your child? Can't kill em legally. Get them to join the army."

And which crack unit is "a competitive ice-sculptor" required for? The invasion of posh dinner parties squad?

That's why I joined lol.

Why join an organization that is a bunch of Right Wing Wackos willing to commit crimes against humanity for their coward commander,
Seig Heil

I enlisted in the Army back in 95, it was either that or end up in jail lol. A lot of the hype about the Army is just that, hype. In truth, it helped me become a better person and learn some self-discipline. I dunno about today’s Army. :shrug:

when you sign up. A relative of mine is an only child, and a couple of years ago he joined the Marines to get his head together. They told him and his parents that as an only child, he wouldn't be required to go into combat. When the time came, it turned out that he didn't have to go into combat only if he was an only SURVIVING child. His parents got lawyers, worked with their Congressmen, and nothing could be done. It probably wouldn't have mattered if they had succeeded, because by the time someone has been in the Marines for a while, he bonds so much with his buddies that it's probably very rare to opt out of supporting them. My relative is one who hates Bush and knew from the beginning that the war was a lie, but I doubt he would have gotten out of going with his friends to Iraq even if he had had the opportunity.

"If you're an only child you won't get combat duty"?

Yeah, and I got a bridge to sell you, and Elvis lives in the apartment above me.

What's the difference between an "only child" and an "only SURVIVING child"?

send the last one home. It is a result of what happened to the Sullivans. All of the brothers were stationed on the same ship and the ship was destroyed, killing all of the Sullivan's children.

"A 1999 Pentagon study found that while the military drew most of its recruits from the middle and lower-middle class, "the socioeconomic status of recruits is slightly lower than the general population." A study last year found that only 6.5 percent of enlistees had some college education, as opposed to 46 percent of civilians the same age."


The rich really don't like to fight their own wars do they?

it is just the poor that have run out of money by the third semester of junior college or they have run out of options for employment. In all fairness my own father joined the Army back in 1961 as a lost teenager looking for some direction. He happened to pick up a job there that trasferred very well into the civilian life. Most jobs don't though, or at least I don't feel they do. There is not a lot of call to be a submarine pilot in civilian life. It can give you some valuable experience, help you have some responsibility, it may even help you get your head out of your butt. In reality I feel it will help straighten out your attitude and direction in life, get you started, but not much more than that.

It said something like this: "Join the army, travel to exotic places, meet interesting people, then kill them."

So I know they're desperate. My husband got a big laugh out of receiving a recruitment letter asking if he (a physician) wouldn't like to join up as an Army doctor. He proudly showed it to our 20 year old son, who laughed even harder.

There is a plan in place right now to begin a draft of people with certain training. Doctors and other medical personnel are first on the list. Sounds like they're going to try first to get volunteers, and if they don't get enough --- Plan B, the selective draft.

It's a devious plan. Start the draft small, with an elite group instead of going straight for the young and poor. Point out that they're not being sent into combat, they're just being asked to do their part to support the troops by treating the wounded. Such a limited draft would be a foot in the door on mandatory military service, without triggering mass outrage. Then as perpetual war continues, more and more "specialized and limited" drafts will take place, because the public accepts it now, see?

for this information? Thanks.

This is completely news to me.

Not sure doctors have to be delivered to military service through the draft, nor enlistment. The Surgeon General can call them and TELL them they are needed anytime. And they have to go. Wonder if any med school wingers are going to be sweating bullets ?

Here's your medical degree, son, Oh yes, and a summons from the Surgeon General...

thankgod I took an oath to defend the conistution and not the people of the united states. Being retired airforce with two sons in the military this thread makes me really wonder why are we doing it.

Defending the constituion?

I'd be wondering why your sons are doing it to. The problem is not the military it is how Bush is using it.

Nixon sent me to Vietnam
Bush Sr sent me to Gulf war 1
Clinton sent me to Bosnia and Somalia
It is the voters who decide who the president is, the last thing you want is the military to decide where they go or not.

However the previous Presidents at least had the luxury of winning an election.

The voters tried to decide. They were robbed.

Now the U.S is in Iraq and people's children are dying.

It is a shame on some of the presidents we have to obey, but god help us if the military decides on who they obey or not. As my sons go one was on the initial invasion and is out of Iraq now (thank god) and the other is on a sub.

They return safely. The sooner they all do the better.

Many other US leaders, both Republican and Democrat alike, have used the military to ensure supply of resources and checks on inflation.

As much as I like bashing Bush and I think he's an evil man, I've read a few articles recently that indicate Clinton was no saint in this respect, either, except that he didn't do it against the wishes of the international community.

The problem is in how the economy is structured -- that a great deal of it is based in the manufacture of weapons. Once you have infrastructure that directly generates revenue from selling weapons, there will always be groups of people disturbing the political scenes of other countries and engineering excuses to use up those weapons (thereby generating demand). Capitalism in its finest, hour, I tell ya ... selling goods made to be destroyed.

EDIT: grammatical errors.

How are they defending the constitution by fighting this war?


And I refer to:
http://www.the-rule-of-law.com/IraqStatement/

Would you agree?

officer or enlisted person who disobeys an order is subject to court martial.

None of the military personnel in Iraq joined specifically to fight in Iraq. :shrug:

so if anybody raises the question that this war is about upholding the constitution, I have to contradict the individual. Since this person asserts that the war is constitutional, I felt obligated to downplay that idea. Read post 20 and thereof.

by fighting this war?"

Military personnel are required to obey the lawful orders of those appointed over them. All lawful command starts with the Commander In Chief, the President and he exercises that command under the control of congress. In this case, congress passed a bill authorizing AWOL to use force against Iraq.

Whether the Iraq War is defending the Constitution can only be answered by Congress because it gave AWOL the authority with H.J.RES.114 "To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq", and became Public Law No: 107-243.

I refer to http://www.the-rule-of-law.com/IraqStatement/

which was signed by http://www.the-rule-of-law.com/iraqname.shtml

If you look at their credentials, they are qualified individuals. Sure lots of decisions have been made over the years but just because the congress passes a law doesn't mean it is consitutional. Take for instance Patriot Act, which is not consitutional by any means. Now since the individual asserts time and time again that this war was constitutional, I begged to differ and I pointed out why. And I haven't even talked about the immoral reasons for fighting this war.
So if a decision is unconstitutional, then by following it how does that make it constitutional?

could only be settled by SCOTUS. I don't believe SCOTUS will get involved and they'll avoid the topic by saying the issue is between Congress and the President. That takes you back to the "Iraq Resolution" and the only option is for Congress to repeal it.

Congress is considering such a repeal with the following resolutions.

H.CON.RES.2 "Expressing the sense of Congress that the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 should be repealed"

and

H.J.RES.20 "To repeal the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002"

It is highly unlikely that either of those resolutions will pass, but if one did pass, it would almost certainly be vetoed. In that case, either 34 senators or 146 congresspersons could prevent an override of a veto. Under the circumstances, the "Iraq resolution" is almost certianly going to remain active.

:shrug:

They manipulated the fear and insecurity of the public to go on a war with iraq. Same goes for patriot act. Of course, it is the supreme court which has the authority to adjudicate this action as unconstitutional. However, the necessary step has to be taken by rational citizens who see the action for what it is, unnecessary and unconstitutional. And the statements of the distinguished law professors who signed the petition highlights the facts.

The idea of supporting the troops for me is to withdraw them immediately. Maybe we can get the UN involved but I am very pessimistic about it. Bush seriously messed up this one. This will alleviate the killings brought by guerilla attacks and also the actions of trigger happy troops who are losing a lot of goodwill. Fighting fire with fire will not stop the fire.

But the idea that you support the troops by accepting what they're doing is unacceptable to me.

of rushing the Patriot Act and Iraq Resolution. Such things should be "sunset" which would then require a majority of both houses to vote for an extension. Of course I was ignored, but I tried.

is unacceptable to me." I don't support the Iraq War, but I do know who is to blame and it's not the troops.

Assuming you are a U.S. citizen or have stated your intention of becoming a citizen, then you could be drafted and be in the same position as the troops in Iraq. If you were drafted, you have a choice -- serve, run, or jail.

If you chose to serve, then you would obey the lawful orders given to you or be punished. If you chose to desert in order to avoid duty in Iraq, then you may face the death sentence.

Under those circumstances, I ask you to consider the troops in Iraq, because none of them joined the military to fight in Iraq.

There's an old military statement "Yours is not to question why, yours is but to do or die". Under those harsh military guidelines, people should focus their anger on AWOL and Congress, not the troops.

after all you say they are doing their job but then again who's going to feel for the otherside. That is not acceptable to me.

If I go by your logic, I derive:
If supporting the troops mean supporting what they do then I conclude that I should be supporting the war.

I, therefore, reserve the right not to support their actions and have clearly mentioned how I support.

fuck'em.

I dont believe in fighting wars.

the more likely choice. Enjoy your "free ride". :shrug:

better run that kill innocent civilians. I dont mind jail either. Of course, nationalists would disagree but when have they been ever right anyway?

Care to elaborate your idea of 'support'?

Enjoy the "free ride". Goodbye, :hi:

that you support what they're doing?

ok.

Yeah, pretty progressive of you.

:eyes:

simple fact that the U.S. does need a standing military and it must remain under the control of elected civilians who represent "We the People".

The Constitution is clearly threatened by AWOL and a do-nothing congress, but no one has suggested an admendment to the Constitution that would improve the situation and still remain a form of democracy.

The funny thing is that any author of a reply to this thread between 17 and 45 yers of age is already a member of the militia. As such, they could be called to active duty immediately. If that were to happen, a person has a choice of obeying, running, or jail.

I hope they aren't challenged and in the meantime, they should be thankful that our active military forces protect the freedoms that they enjoy on DU and elsewhere.

:shrug:

:eyes:

I want to join that squad too.

Perhaps there's a cocktail party assault unit.

True. Senior officers often 'employed' enlisted men to tend bar for their afternoon cocktail parties. It was a common way for us to pick up some extra pocket money.

I was also (formally) trained in ballroom dancing in the military, but that's another (true) story.

Ballroom dancing and cocktails? Dammit! I thought we were going to fight a war!

... one of the service academies (USMA, USNA, USAFA, or USCGA). For the latter, virtually any enlisted assignment to a non-combat HQ detachment.

Have been advised all their life...DONT join up...hang up the phone on them at 18 if they call...
I showed them every ANTI war film I could show them, from Apocolypse Now to Born on the 4th of July ..Only ONE signed up for the National Guard, and hes so appalled at Bush and Co he gets out in Nov and never ever will go back. 2 guys from his boot camp died over there.
The other two, one is an antiwar activist, the other just went off on his own to college and thinks Bush is a fascist.
Hooah!
When the recruiters called this house and I answered, I was polite but firm..
"My sons are not here, they are busy at a gay rights rally."

Will you thank the sons of others who have protected yours?

They're nobody special.

I was raised like she raised her boys. I'm 25 years old and had no desire to join up. Its not like I hate the military, it is simply a choice I made. Do you have contempt for all able bodied civilians, or are you being sarcastic? The point is that the military is NOT being used to defend the country, however if NEEDED to defend my home , I would serve.

To Solon you are correct. It has always been the citizen soldiers that have won the wars for this country.

As if his sons deserve anything special for volunteering to be in the military. :eyes:

I have learned we don't get anything special. I have been trying to get a job I really want but with no because now I'am to "old". I spent the best part of life defending my country and now I'am not good enough for what I want to do. I'am glad my sons are in the military but I hope they don't make a career out of it and get out while they are still young enough to provide for themselves and family.

need to thank yours for doing their jobs. I had a thankless job in the Army and once I got out my job skills were non-existent in the civilian sector. I had to retrain myself all over again - the Army did nothing for me in that one area.

Sorry if I sounded gruf, I apologize - of course your sons are special. I'm just tired of seeing people here (vets) treat people who have never served as if they (the civilians) owed them something. They don't, we joined up, no one forced us to.

As a parent I fully understand her wanting to protect her sons. And I fully understand what you went though, for me it is a bitch trying to find a decent job at 50, nobody wants to hire an old goat no matter how much experiance you have. But I keep trying. :)

A friend of mine is 29 years old, and just got out after 10 years in the USAF. Can't find a job anywhere.

Oh and most of the people in my apartment building can't find a job anywhere either.

And Boeing just laid off, like tons more people.

Not to be crass or rude, but you're not the only one out there looking for a job, and it has more to do with the economy than it does your age.

Happened to me too, I got out and discovered no one wanted me, I had no skills that they could use...I went back to school and landed in the IT sector. I'm now back in school (again), hopefully to get a teaching certificate so I can teach history in high school.

Hope you find something soon, I'm 32 and have found it to be worth the time and money (plus VA helps with the GI Bill) to go back to college. Keep on truckin, determination will get you to where you need to be. :)

being mis-used at this time.

My father was in Japan postwar, fought in Korea, and was an instructor at the School of the Americas (CIA dirty tricks school in Panama)

Most of the folks here (self included) are NOT anti soldier....
It's about the LYING.. (where have we heard THAT phrase??)..

Only a child would believe that our "wars" are to "protect America".. If that were the case, no one would have died on 9/11...the military did not fail us that day...the LEADERS did..

We can attack every two-bit country on earth and we will be no safer.. In fact adventurism makes us LESS safe..

It's the "playing with the lives of our soldiers" that pisses me (and others) off..

When a son goes to war, and risks his life, shouldn't we bellieve that it's for a more important reason than to escort Halliburton execs around or to ferry oil company execs into "hostile territory".. Maybe the reason they are being received in a hostile manner, is that the "locals" actually object to being occupied..

Military "indoctrination" is a necessity in order to make normal people agree to kill strangers, but the right wing has gone overboard since we got our ass kicked in Viet Nam.. They now have such a tight control on "news", that probably even the soldiers on the ground don't know what's happening..:(

Dear Soldier,

Fist off, let me say how proud of you I am.. You went in harms way and acquitted yourself admirably.. There is one thing that bothers me a little. We hear all the time, thanks to our gung-ho media, that you all respect and admire our current president more than anything..

The presidency is an office to be respected, but you are probably aware that sometimes people get into office that should not command respect. The media loves to tell us how the morale was at an all time low during the Clinton administration, because you did not respect him. Undoubtedly, the message that he was a draft-dodger must not have set well with a military person. Did you ever research that claim and find out what the truth was??

If you are unfamiliar with the draft system that was in effect during the Viet Nam era, I would advise you to do a little research.. A brief explanation is this:.. Young men were issued a number that coincided with their birthday. Clinton had a very high number and would never have even BEEN drafted.. The time he spent in England, was NOT as a draft dodger, as Rush Limbaugh and others would have you believe, but as a RHODES SCHOLAR.. Remember too, that he had NO rich and powerful Daddy to pull strings for him.. Did he use that scholarship as a deferment?? You Betcha.. Like millions of other young men of that era, he did not want to go to Viet Nam.

Are you familiar with the term “Chickenhawk”?.. You might want to google that phrase someday when you are surfing the web.. You would find out that the very ones who are ordering military strikes all around the globe and who are so fast and loose with YOUR lives, ARE chickenhawks. These are the ones who overtly AVOIDED service when it was THEIR time to go, and yet, have NO difficulty sending you and your friends to fight.

George Bush was “leapfrogged” over thousands of young men who were on a waiting list to get into the Texas Air National Guard.. He was assigned immediately, and you can bet your life that some unfortunate guy who did NOT get that slot, ended up in Viet Nam.. While Bush was at the TANG, he stuck around long enough to learn to fly an OBSOLETE plane that would have ensured that even if the unit had been called up, his lack of training in current aircraft would have “protected” him.. At the very time that the TANG started requiring drug testing in the physicals, George decided not to take the physical, and was grounded.. Shortly after that he decided to take time off.. About 18 months time off… DURING A WAR.. What would happen to YOU if you chose a similar tactic??


People join the military for many reasons. Some people like guns.. Some people like adventure.. Some people have a hard time finding a decent job back home that will give them the benefits that a military career can offer.. There are probably as many reason to join up as there are soldiers..

It’s true that we have a volunteer military, and that’s a good thing, but are you aware that reserve and guard units are being used to provide “cover” for the politicians who KNOW that our military is stretched thin and getting thinner every day? The politicians know that if they really did what was necessary and ordered a draft again, they would lose their cushy Washington DC job..

There are forces at work that most people do not even know about, and it pains me to see our military being used as a security force for a few power hungry corporations. The same corporations who were awarded (without bids) the billions of dollars in contracts for the “clean-up and reconstruction” of the middle east wars, are the SAME corporations who DID BUSINESS with the corrupt leaders that you were sent to depose. These companies are also the ones who benefit from making the weapons that you are using to force the corrupt governments into submission. These companies win on BOTH sides.. They build it, they supply it, they build the bombs that destroy it, and THEN they get more contracts to build it up again. These are deals made in secrecy, because if the media ever covered these deals thoroughly, the citizens would rise up.


The USA needs a strong military, and we are lucky to have dedicated people like you protecting us, but remember also, that once your time is up in the military, we do not treat veterans that well.. Sure we turn out for parades and the politicians give lip service to all the wonderful “programs” they intend to enact for you , but when push comes to shove, you are on your own.. The shots that they insist you take, may permanently damage your health, but by then they will not care about you..

The Viet Nam Era soldiers were injured by Agent Orange, and the Pentagon, just kept stalling and stalling, and more or less called them goldbrickers and liars.. The military approach was to wait until most of them were too sick to continue the fight, or they were dead.. Lots of these young soldiers came back with damaged DNA and their babies were born with lifelong and devastating birth defects..

Today’s soldiers are exposed to depleted uranium in the field and when handling munitions.. The military scientists say it’s “safe”.. Does exposure . daily, to radioactive materials really sound like a safe practice? Do the generals and top brass handle these radioactive materials?? Probably the biggest risk they take is from a paper cut while shuffling requests to rotate home..

The same is true for Gulf War Syndrome. They are reluctantly admitting that it may actually be the reason for health issues, but you can bet your life that they will still try to disallow your disability claims for as long as they CAN.. For you older soldiers nearling retirement, you DO know, don’t you, that if you are released with a disability, the amount of money you receive for that service-related disability will be DEDUCTED from the military pension that you have earned in service to your country?

One issue that is rarely given the credence it deserves is post traumatic stress, too. Soldiers see the most horrific things and when they get home, they are expected to pick up their lives as if they were just at the hardware store or at the office. Everything you see and everything you are asked to do in battle, will settle in the crevices of your brain, and it will be there ALWAYS. Will your psychological care be available to you when the time comes for you to “deal with” what you have lived through?? Your family’s future and happiness may depend on that care being available.

All I am saying is, don’t be so ready to buy into the propaganda that you are exposed to.. Do some independent research and somewhere in the middle lies the truth..

Soldiers during the 1950’s were told that the nuclear blasts that they were ordered to watch, would not hurt them.. Most of them are dead by now, and their medical claims were rarely recognized as service-related..

Right now you are young and invincible, but you will not always be that way.. Look upon your leaders with respect, but do not confuse respect with blind faith.. They may act like Gods, but they are not..

The people “back home” who protest against war are not the enemy. We are the ones who have seen what happens AFTER the wars or know how devalued the soldier becomes once the war has gone on too long , or is declared over, but soldiers remain..left behind..

We know that you will acquit yourselves admirably and do your best to get home safely. That is our wish for you . It has always been what we wanted for you. . To be HOME.

I think that may be a concept too few consider? I don't understand why either? Bright people otherwise too. Great post SoCalDem.

Don

(the fault lying with the media, political rhetoric, and an over simplistic view of history) in the idea of our "great american values" to the extent that we believe that people around the world will welcome us with open arms, simply because we symbolize american democracy.

various forms of government. Without asking, I'll assume you agree that the U.S. must have a standing military and it must be under the control of civilians elected by "We the People".

The choice of manning that military is either draft or volunteer. The People's representatives chose volunteer and as such the People have a moral obligation to support their military.

The decision to man out military units could have been by draft and some of your sons could be in Iraq today. I don't believe you would blame them because you know they must obey orders or face court martial.

It is simply wrong to blame the troops because they are fighting in Iraq, blame AWOL and a do-nothing congress.

If the military is not able to fill its requirements with volunteers, congress will implement the draft.

It is selfish of course, but by encouraging and supporting volunteers, you reduce the probability that your sons might be drafted. :shrug:

your house when your son turns eighteen?

He nad some friends went and took the test..for fun :eyes:

My son aced it, and took some literature.. They were calling and calling and one day, one showed up at the house wanting to talk to him..

He took the damn test about 4 days before he left for school in Italy, so when I told the guy that he would have to go to europe to talk to him, he finally quit calling.. but... they wanted him and B A D !!!

They did me, WAY back in 1975. I'm sure they still pull the same shit today.

"Son, Thissis Gunny Seargent Culpeppah o' yer Nighted States Mu-REEN Corp, How're ya doin' t'day?"

"Uh Sarge, I gotta problem, I don't think I like Girls..."

"GOOD-Bye! (click)"

Try it. It works.

(my FIL is one of them) who got into small-time legal trouble when they were in their late teens. They were told by the judge that they could go to jail or enlist in the service. I wonder if we will see a return to this type of coercion.

with their cracking down on judges who sentence lenient. The Puritan-Luciferians' worldview looks beyond differences in institutions, whether schools or churches, or military- or prisons-industrial complexes -- sees all as slightly different aspects of their one monstrous devotion: cheap labor and maximum pain to losers.

"The best blood... the fresh blood of a child, or dropping from the host of heaven: then of enemies; then of the priest or of the worshippers: last of some beast, no matter what." AL III,24
-- Aleister Crowley: 1926 http://heptapod.org/bookofthelaw.html

makes the mormons look like Cookie waving Girlscouts.....

<http://www.capedmaskedandarmed.com/video/goarmy.mov>
<http://www.capedmaskedandarmed.com/video/airforce.mov>
<http://www.capedmaskedandarmed.com/video/army2.mov>


DONT BELIEVE THE HATE......................

The less time the recruiter has to brainwash and take other american children off to die for AWOL's oil.

parents like Jones' who have served in uniform themselves, and their numbers are shrinking in these days of a downsized, all-volunteer military.

Bull, I spent four years in the military and there is no way I would encourage my children to join the military. I make it a point that they should go to college or get some other type of post-high school training and become a productive citizen of this country. My wife and I have a bias towards college since both completed college and the spouse went on to graduate school but technincal training or something of that nature would be ok, just not the military!

I served on active duty for a few years; no combat service but on active duty during "official wartime" during both hitches. Got a degree and a home from the GI bill.

So, I thought it might be good for my son, too. He didn't like the idea. Boy, was he right! I guess he wasn't as desperate for a decent paying job as I must have been. He's unemployed now, but I'm glad he isn't in Iraq or Afghanistan.

My wife's friend has a son who was sent to Afghanistan right after basic. He's 19. He was there for a year. He came home for two months. Now he's on his way to Iraq. Hope he's okay over there.

re ARMY OF ONE

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html