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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 11:55 AM
Original message
U.S. military report draws Iraq, Vietnam parallel
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N20375741.htm

WASHINGTON, May 20 (Reuters) - U.S. action in Iraq could prove a foreign policy debacle if the Bush administration ignores Washington's painful failure at nation-building in South Vietnam a generation ago, a new Army report warns.

As in Southeast Asia, the United States is trying to fashion a legitimate state in Iraq against a backdrop of insurgency, rising U.S. death tolls and tenuous support at home, said the report published this month by the Army War College.

But U.S. troops, viewed by many Iraqis as invaders, lack the advantage of South Vietnam's large domestic security force as they seek to build new institutions under the pressure of a June 30 deadline for transfer of sovereignty.

"In Vietnam, we were trying to prop up a government that had little legitimacy. In Iraq, we're trying to weave together a government and support it so it can develop legitimacy. Both are extremely hard to do," said co-author W. Andrew Terrill, of the War College's Strategic Studies Institute.

The Vietnam War, a Cold War catastrophe that still haunts American policymakers, ended in the 1970s with 58,000 U.S. war dead after public opinion turned against policies aimed at containing Communism in Southeast Asia.

more

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Tis good sign that a US Army report critical of malAdmin. policies sees
light of day. Is the Army sending a warning shot across the junta's bow?
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Village Idiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. 58,000 U.S. war dead .....
and an estimated 2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians...
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. We are in the path of that train,...again,...but, thankfully,...
,...some learn from history and are cutting these neocon imperialists off at the pass!!!!
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. They were warned about this
yet went to war on the cheap!! Why didn't they listen!!

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ScrewyRabbit Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. Oh how I laugh at the conservative pundits
who said the comparison was ludicrous. Well, the ARMY doesn't think so!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Army War College.?? That is where aWol* will give his Iraq War speech
on Monday. The new series of speeches he will be giving weekly to explain his Iraq War strategery. Hmmm, this should be interesting.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. "No Booing! That's an Order!"
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Get yours now!

The report "Iraq and Vietnam: Differences, Similarities and Insights" is available in PDF at
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ssi/pubs/2004/iraqviet/iraqviet.htm
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. Promises to keep


2001 Hmong Population and Education in
the United States and the World
August 24, 2001
Researched and Collected by Dr. Vang Pobzeb

From 1975 to 1991, more than 500,000 people in Laos fled and became international political refugees in the world because of the legacy of the Vietnam War in Southeast Asia.


The Communist Lao and Vietnamese governments have been exterminating Hmong people in Laos since the end of the Vietnam War in 1975 and are still doing so today, because of Hmong people cooperated with the U.S. government during the Vietnam War. In 2001, witnesses in Laos have reported that many thousands of Communist Vietnamese soldiers are cooperating with the Communist Lao government of the Lao People's Democratic Republic (LPDR) to conduct an ethnic cleansing war, genocide and human rights violations against Hmong people in Laos. Therefore, we appeal to and call upon Hmong American intellectuals, educators and the general public to unify our leadership strategies and efforts in order to save the lives of Hmong people in Laos. We call upon all Hmong people to unify and work together to save the lives of Hmong people. Power politics in the world and global actors are remaining silent on the genocide against Hmong people in Laos because they are concerned with economics and commercial goods for themselves. They do not really care about human rights violations and genocide in Laos and in other parts of the world.

There are about 300,000 Hmong American people in the United States in 2001.


In 2001, there are approximately 80,000 Hmong American people in Minnesota; and 80,000 Hmong Americans in Wisconsin.


About 40,000 Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota, Wisconsin, and other states between 1996 and 2001.


About 70,000 Hmong Americans still live in California in 2001.


Many Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota and Wisconsin and other states because of the problems of welfare reforms and unemployment problems

http://www.laohumrights.org/2001data.html

Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier
Writing to an American who was confused about the Hmong people, Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier, wrote the following in 1996 (quoted from his e-mail to me, with permission):

The war in Vietnam was fought on several fronts and I served in two them. The main American battle ground was in the Southern end of South Vietnam. In order for the North Vietnamese forces to fight us there, it was necessary for their supplies and troops to go through Laos and Cambodia on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and Laos was controlled by a Pro-Communist Government at that time. Therefore America was not allowed to have any forces on the ground, although we were allowed to bomb and attack North Vietnamese troops with our aerial forces. About 99% of the combat forces on the ground were Hmong irregulars who were persuaded by Americans to forget about being neutral, and to fight the N. Vietnamese regulars (not relatively poorly trained Viet Cong guerrilla forces). We supplied air cover, but every combat trooper knows aircraft can't take and hold ground. We depended on the Hmongs to do this. Without modern arms, without medical help.
After the fall of Saigon we pulled out of Southeast Asia and left the Hmongs to continue the fight without air support. When we left, the Hmong had to fight both the Laotians and the N. Vietnamese. They could not fight tanks, heavy artillery and aircraft with rifles. A great many Hmongs were slaughtered in their villages. Many were slaughtered at airfields where they waited for evacuation planes that never came. A few were able to fight every foot of the way across Laos and cross the Mekong River into refugee camps in Thailand where they were further mistreated by rather corrupt UN and Thai officials. Out of a estimated 3,000,000 prewar Hmong population less than 200,000 made it to safety. One other ill informed or stupid writer said "they were all gone" meaning, I guess, that the combat Hmongs were all dead, they are wrong. Most of the survivors are in Australia, France and here among us.

Now I don't know about those heroes who have never heard a shot fired in anger, but I am embarrassed that my country so mislead these people. The Hmongs gave up literally everything for us: their country, their homes, their peaceful way of life, most of their families, everything that we would cherish. We promised them our continued support and then we bugged out.

You mentioned having relatives who fought in Vietnam and I hope they all survived. However their chances would have been much less if the Hmongs hadn't intercepted over 50% of the N. Vietnamese troops and supplies. If you truly loved your relatives, you should be grateful for the Hmongs' sacrifices.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/hmong.shtml
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. oh it's just those darn liberals in the ........ Army?
Ooops.

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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Don, I Know You Have Been Calling It Vietnam For A Long Time
as I have:

Vietnamization & Iraqization - Two Doomed Policies (Dec. 2003)
"The Vietnamization of that occupied nation had failed miserably against a popular uprising and insurgency. Do we honestly expect a different result in Iraq?" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=885102


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