(Vigilante) Militias round up illegal immigrants in desert

Some longtime ranchers in southern Arizona, frustrated by the steady stream of northbound migrants crossing their lands, have taken to patrolling their properties and turning over those they catch to the U.S. Border Patrol.

But in the past few years, a new phenomenon has developed: Ideologically motivated -- and well-armed -- militia groups such as Ranch Rescue have set up shop in border communities from California to Texas and advertise on the Internet for recruits to come down with firearms and camping gear to join the border protection efforts.

Law enforcement officials say they have seen few legal violations by the groups, but immigrant rights advocates contend the emergence of vigilantes is evidence that the U.S.-Mexico border is more dangerous than ever.

Illegal immigrants face mistreatment by smugglers and bandits, capture by border guards, dehydration in the desert -- and now armed civilian patrols.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/05/31/MNGJ66TS9G1.DTL

I'm a rancher in SE Arizona.

1. Exactly what is happening in the border areas? Obviously, these people are upset about something--something more than racism, perhaps?

2. Are these folks acting solely on their own problems, or are they also upset about impacts of mass illegal immigration on other parts of the country?

3. What is your view of what these groups are doing.

What is happening in an unprecedented human migration. US policy seems to be close the border in urban areas and force the migration to occur in rural extreme desert conditions. I live 60 miles north of the border, I have experienced a huge disruption in my ability to ranch. Fences are cut on a daily basis (if you bother to repair them daily) trash is covering large areas - this is real trash - food refuse, clothes, dirty underwear, blankets, thousands of water bottles, plastic bags, glass, cans, female products, toilet paper, human waste, drug paraphanalia, over the counter drugs as well. Vehicles abandoned everywhere, fires started, etc etc. All the "problems" vast numbers of campers/tourists/humans with no infrastructure can cause. For the people right along the border there has been an increase in crime - break-ins, robberies, shootings etc. Because of the typical "war" approach to the problem - that is escalation of technology, enforcement etc the risks and therefore the benefits have increased for the criminal element - It is now $1500 to 2000 to get from the border to places like Phx where you can then get on a bus or plane with no problem. To maximise proffit often 20 to 30 people are stuffed into a van - I mean like a regular old ford or Dodge passenger van and then carried around checkpoints through the desert off road then back onto a highway. They are constantly involved in horrible rollover accidents, because of the overload and bad tires. And its worse when they get chased. About 100 -200 die every year trying to cross the SW part of Arizona in the summer on foot. This is a deadly area formerly mostly used by drug smugglers and there have been instances of kidnapping and torture by competing smugglers, locals who are preditors etc.

And all of this because they don't have/can't get the proper documents from the Mexican government. Because of paperwork.

In my area its not quite as dangerous, environmentally - more water available etc. The locals are overwhelmed. The federal govt, who is responsible for the mess isn't funding any of the consequences - our local hospitals are losing millions treating these people and since we are rural we really don't have much tax base to absorb the costs. Law enforcement is inadequate in general much less adding all this to it. Now, personally I don't go around holding illegals for the Border Patrol to come pick up, but there are days when I think about it - the cow that just died a horrible slow death because of the plastic wound up inside of her guts (probably happens to deer too) or the thousandth time I have to go chase livestock off the interstate because the fence was cut AGAIN - endangering not just the livestock but innocent drivers who don't seem to have a clue they will die if they don't slow down and run into a 1000 lb cow at 75 mph. Never mind trying to MANAGE grazing the way I would like.

I don't know if the local folks doing this (Barnetts get most of the press and actually are probably the main ones doing it) have much concern about the effects of this immigration on the rest of the country - probably assign some of the blame to them for hiring, rather than thinking of lost "American" jobs and such. The vigilante groups DO seem top have more of a wider (and racist) agenda. They haven't been too active lately, that I have noticed. The leader of one bunch got sent back to Texas to stand trial for beating a couple of Mexicans a few years ago.

My view is I wouldn't have these vigilantes on my place - I don't even like the border patrol around (we're talking federal police traipsing around my place of business, essentially) but I can't really fault the folks that do either. It is really a mess down here. Even if crimes aren't happening, think of the impact of hundreds of people running through your yard EVERY NIGHT. Stuff gets broken, trampled, your privacy is shot, trash all over the place. I don't tend to think about it because it comes off as really racist but others have mentioned disease - hell just the conditions of having no sanitation, much less the implication of them coming from third world conditions...typhoid, cholera etc....
Think about a huge concert or sport event and all the spilled drinks and food and overflowed toilets, paper, lost clothes etc. Now imagine that happening every night in some fragile desert environment or your yard. EVERY NIGHT.

to protect your property.

//shootings etc// this would require "armed" invaders

My 83-year-old uncle sort of farms 280 acres of fields and woodlot in the upper Midwest, including a stand of old-growth forest that has been coppiced a bit but not really destroyed and a wetland/mud lake. He has a few head of beef, some hay and a little corn. He'd be furious, as would his neighbors, if something like this happened on his property every night. We relatives would be extremely upset, too, especially about any trashing or burning of the forest, because we have an emotional tie to that farm which has been in the family over 100 years. No one has the right to come upon someone else's property and trash it.

Your rock concert/sporting event analogy helped me visualize the situation. I remember the squalor of an outdoor in-the-rain Bruce Springsteen concert at Saratoga that was part of his "Born in the USA" tour. It was a complete mess; I can only imagine what Woodstock was really like, and that didn't involve auto-cattle interaction.

This is really not fair to you and other ranchers and farmers, in my opinion. You shouldn't suffer this damage. The government really should be policing our borders. I cannot imagine that other nations would allow something like this to go on. The Mexicans try mightily to stop it, too, at their southern border, if what I have read is true.

I feel very badly for people who cannot support their families in their own countries, but, to me, what is going on now is not working. I just wish that I had some answers.

Again, thank you for your reply. Good luck to you and your fellow ranchers and local residents.

You mention a couple of times that one of the headaches you're
dealing with is that your fences get cut or damaged a lot,
presumably by migrants trying to reach the roads. Is there
any possibility that you could put install gates in your fences,
even small ones, that humans could figure out how to open but
cattle couldn't?

I suppose if you did that, though, the Border Patrol would
probably bust you for "collaboration" or some such nonsense.

I live in Portland, Oregon. Like most places these days, we've
got a substantial homeless population. After years of shuffling
homeless camps around from neighborhood to neighborhood, the
city finally allocated some land near the columbia river and
spent some money to install water taps, bathrooms, showers, etc,
for the homeless that need long-term camping space. All this
on the theory that it's much, much cheaper to install a few
toilets, water taps, and dumpsters than it is to deal with the
inevitable cholera outbreak.

Is there anything in that approach that might apply to your
dilemma? Just curious -- your answers might help me understand
the issues better.

The thing that I've never been able to figure out is how
paying for this massive border patrol force is cheaper than
tripling or quadrupling the work permit processing teams
at the US consulates in Mexico.

God forbid we actually do something to reduce the wealth differ-
ential and eliminate the need for the migration altogether.

Thanks for a thoughtful and insightful view into life on the
border.

J.

As in subsidies and other government handouts?

Just remember, ag "subsidies" benefit the consumer too. Some call what they percieve as low rates for grazing public lands "subsidies" others argue they aren't. I won't bother with those arguments right now, just want to point out that comparing public land rates to private leases is an apple and orange situation. Sort of like the difference of you renting long term a shack in the middle of nowhere and comparing the cost to a week at some fancy hotel in NYC with all the services that come with it. And you spend your own money fixing up the shack. And police the area and leave it in better shape than when you got it. And have to share it with other users. Plus pay taxes. And you can't own it because of the way the land ownership is set up. (something like only 13% of land in Arizona is in private hands)

Personally, this place only has a very small amount of "public" federal land that I have to deal with. It is about 80% state trust land. This we share with hunters, recreationists and some mining interests. Not to mention all the right of ways that are primarily a (subsidised) benefit to urban populantions and not me. - two county roads, a major Union Pacific route, Interstate 10, two oil pipelines, a gas line several fiberoptic underground cable routes, power generating substaion, three or four high voltage overhead lines, Microwave tower, military communication site, etc etc.

So when you ask about subsidies, as if I am somehow unilaterally benefiting from such a system, please remember you are as well. Lots more on this subject such as REAL subsidies that entities like Monsanto etc receive to the detriment of small farmers and the environment. (yet that box of mac and cheese is still pretty cheap for you!) As usual when you begin to look into things they are ALWAYS more complex than they appear on the surface.

If some type of terra-ist activity were to take place on your property , say one of those pipelines were taken out by an "armed" invader or terra-ist cell. Would you be held responsible for failing to protect it?

this goes to something I mentioned a couple of days ago on another subject (marijuana in a hotel room, found by employees)- in this day and age of Patriot acts and 88-crime - report your neighbor mentality - it may well be a crime to not report something illegal. I doubt seriously I could be held liable, but who knows? I am required, as a condition of the grazing lease to stop activities such as woodcutting or illegal hunting or off roaders.

and quick. lest some type of catch 22 situation could appear and you lose your property. Best to be proactive in these times.

And what do you think about this story?

The place has been in my family since about 1884 or 86 (records are a little fuzzy) my kids are the 5th generation here, 6th gen Arizonans. I can only hope I will be able to retire and stay here, the pressures to get out are huge. From development, to environmental regs, to low prices to the hassles mentioned above. Not many of us left. Lots of pavement and stucco boxes, though.

Farming, and I suspect ranching, is a tough way to earn a living these days from everything I hear from my uncle and my friends back in my rural Midwest home town, and has been for a long time. You have to really love it to keep going. Farmers and ranchers are extremely skilled individuals responsible for putting food in our stomachs. Farming isn't just sticking a few seeds in the ground and ranching isn't just turning a few cattle loose to graze.

The problems farmers face are very complex, and the subsidy situation that many complain about isn't all honey for farmers who participate, according to my uncle. And bear in mind that those subsidies do not cover all crops and operations. Really, farmers and ranchers don't see much of that money that you all shell out for your food. That goes to the folks who sell the supplies and purchase the raw goods from the farmers and ranchers and get it to your plates.

Before you condemn Kali, take a walk in his boots.

There are plenty of other people involved in getting the food to your plate who deserve lots of criticism.

its HER, by the way, but thanks for your support. I am not a mainstream rancher, by any means, but I have respect for them. I think a lot of things need to change in the way we produce food, but still as bad as things are we DO produce a lot in this country for cheap, (at least till the oil runs out or the environment collapses)

Not many have a direct connection to food production anymore (less than 2% I think it is now, left farming) so we have become an easy minority target for feel good "activism" - I'm used to that. But it is really nice to have someone stand up for "us"/me. Thanks - that I'm not very used to!

You can't have vigilante forces. Just look at the legal bounty hunters and the abuse there!

I'm from Texas. I understand there is a problem, but going outside of the law is not the answer and no I do not have the answer.

is also quite illegal.

It is not illegal to protect ones own property from trespassers.

...some teenager cuts through my yard?

Don

crossing a yard. This is armed invasion from a foreign soil.

If the invaders would make the decision to enter the country at the predetermined entrance points(INS border crossings)like you or I are required to. then these so-called vigilantes would not be necessary. Since the invaders have chosen to cross into these peoples yards and bypass the predetermined entrance points. They should know this is done at their own peril. The INS border patrols are overwhelmed and are being shot at regularly. I know of very few countries that tolerate armed invaders, the present day USA seems to be the exception, the legislature(not the frequently shot at & overwhelmed border Patrol) seem to feel armed invaders aren't that big a deal. Armed invaders were always dealt with swiftly even when futile results were certain, (Look at what just happened in Venezuela should Chavez have let the Columbians in unchecked?) this was true even before there were such things as borders.

Moral of the story - enter at the same points as everyone else is required or risk grievous bodily harm. The whole slant of the above article seems to paint these privateers in a bad light, Why doesn't Sf gate focus on the millions of immigrants who enter this country via the predetermined entrance points but are required to undergo humiliating searches as their reward for going by the book.

If there were an armed invasion from another country we have a military that takes care of such things. Not a bunch of liquored up rednecks running around like nuts with guns. And how do I know a teenager is not armed? Teenagers are caught every day with guns.

Don

is on it....If it were a large scale invasion , then yes. But not at present...there's really no one on it save few the understaffed BP.

a squad of armed Mexican paramilitary police or soldiers crossed into the U.S. near Candelaria Nov. 24 around 5 p.m. and took a five-member family – a husband, a wife and three minor children – captive at gunpoint

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35972

If you need to use that as a source to support your position this conversation is over. See ya.

Don

that's it attack the source, this story was widely reported at the time, google away...I've heard live interviews with the family. WND may be a joke but you just go right ahead , stick your head in the sand and pretend no-one else out there is armed or has bad intentions but ned/necks. Do you personally know any border patrol on the southern border? you should go talk to some- they're very brave and fine people.


www.nbpc.net/news/incursion/otaymesa.html www.alamanceind.com/newfol~4/immig_36.html
www.customs.ustreas.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/ press_releases/05132004.xml
www.customs.ustreas.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/ press_releases/05132004.xml
www.americanfreepress.net/06_01_02/Mexican_Soldiers_/ mexican_soldiers_.html
www.tombstonetumbleweed.com/TumbleFeb1904/ Border%20Fire%20Fight.htm

many stories which reflect negatively on immigration, legal or illegal, from what I've seen.

Immigration is a real hot-button issue, as evidenced by posts here on Democratic Underground, and even on Free Republic. Polls seem to bear that out.

I saw a fascinating poll last year commissioned by a Chicago business-roundtable type group showing that those who support a very generous immigration policy were generally highly educated and/or very comfortable financially, but were of both political parties. Those who opposed such policies were of both political parties and at least somewhat less educated or with less money.

You can add to that many liberals who sympathize with immigrants on ideological grounds and economic conservatives who like immigrants because they are thought to keep down wages.

Consequently, you get liberal-ish papers like the New York Times and the Washington Post publishing pro-immigration stories and editorials and conservative papers like the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times publishing stories that are not that different, at least in my perception. Neither paper seems to give much space to stories highlighting problems or op-eds opposing large-scale immigration, at least from what I've seen. I'd be happy to be corrected on this if I'm wrong.

That means that stories and opinion pieces that do not reflect favorably on immigration tend to pop up in less mainstream publications, some of which have less than savory reputations in some quarters, like World Net Daily.

I myself am very conflicted on the issue of large-scale immigration, legal or illegal, at this time for any number of reasons. I sincerely wish that there were a wider variety of stories about this in the mainstream, and, most of all, that there could be a calm discussion of the issues involved.

That's my last word on the subject.

And women, and children, and the elderly. The dangerous ones are the racist, gun toting nutjobs, who want to get a chance to bag a mexican.

you forget about the guys leading them around - they are tending to be armed more and more and there is a mix of criminals - drug smugglers in there as well. And they fight amongst themselves and its dangerous to get caught in the crossfire. Having said that throwing a bunch of rednecks into the mix (not that there aren't any local rednecks heh heh) isn't always going to be helpful.

definetely are scum. These people deserve a severe punishment. Human trafficing is a terrible crime -- whether it's by arranging the boats bringing Chinese overseas (many ending up dead in boxes) or those that smuggle them across the US-Mexican border.

Being the son of legal immigrants, I definetely have sympathy for those that wish to come here. However, illegal immigration IS a problem, and must we dealt with...otherwise such vigilante groups will go over the law. This too cannot be tolerated in a nation of laws.

In a way, the continuation of illegal border crossings ten years after the signing of NAFTA proves it to be a failure. One of the main goals was that NAFTA would increase living standards in Mexico. Instead living standards have decreased in border towns. Much of the rest of the country also hasn't shown great improvements because of NAFTA either.

I say it's time to scrap NAFTA, and enact some sensible immigration policies. Deporting those that enter the country illegally is probably one such solution, but the key is improving living standards in Mexico. Little if any improvement will be seen if that doesn't happen. Obviously this would piss off the wealthy, so such a thing isn't likely to pass. Perhaps the legal quotas for people immigrating from Mexico might be increased a slight bit, with a stern warning being put in place that those entering illegally will neither recieve social services (at least education and non emergency medical care), nor will those children born of illegal immigrants be given automatic citizinship (though I believe the natural born children of LEGAL immigrants should be given citizenship).

Those are the only things I can think of. Private armed border vigilantes DEFINETELY are NOT the solution.

Until the "war on border crossers" started a few years ago, with its DUH! attendant increase in risk/bennefit factor (see drug war) the polleros, at least around here, were just kids from the border towns leading the walkers to pick up points. I think most of them were ok people just trying to make a living too. Now it has become HUGE crime business, its organized, competitive and getting more dangerous and deadly for all involved. (we had our first violent encounter this year - I posted about it the day it happened - not sure how to find old posts but...)

Until about 5 or 6 years ago (when operation Gatekeeper started - google that), we would occasionally get singles, or small groups on foot lost or in need of food or water (before that we got folks in need of work, but that's not allowed around here anymore - ha try to hire a Mexican cowboy anywhere near the border - those employer crimes they enforce!) Now all I see is the camps and abandoned vehicles. They have litterally made new highways through the land and set up hotel/bus stations in the brush. (No trash pick up or laundry services, but most of the rest - one time I found 10 gallon water bottles and 5 paper bags containing 100 whoppers sitting by the road.)

armed invasion? first off prove even a majority of border crossers are armed, second prove that they some how have their sites set on actaully taking property by force and settling on it. The vigilantes are most likely the criminal element here. I can almost garuntee being country fried red necks they got illegal weapons, god knows some are in on the drug trade.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35972

and I'm not going to search all day for the HUNDREDS of times the BP has been fired on...You do the leg work before you make another ignorant post.

you wouldn't need to make lame posts like this -

//I can almost garuntee being country fried red necks they got illegal weapons, god knows some are in on the drug trade.//

had you read the original link-
militia groups such as Ranch Rescue have set up shop in border communities from California to Texas and advertise on the Internet for recruits to come down with firearms and camping gear to join the border protection efforts.

Law enforcement officials say they have seen few legal violations by the groups,

Way too much Faux News for you!!

than you.

American police officers have been intentionally fired on by
foreign troops who illegally invaded the U.S. - and outside of the
Southwest, "mainstream" U.S. dailies haven't talked about it in the
two weeks since - in spite of a very-detailed two-page press
release by Local 1929, which represents area Border Patrol
personnel. There is no real doubt as to what happened; even the
Mexican government isn't denying it - but are calling the incident
"a regrettable error."

http://www.alamanceind.com/newfol~4/immig_36.html

The Bush administration is doing its best to cover-up a series of incidents along the U.S.-Mexican border in which Mexican military forces or Mexican federal police invaded U.S. territory and fired on U.S. Border Patrol officers.

The most recent incident occurred on May 17 at 8:30 p.m. five miles north of the border and south of the Arizona village of Ajo, approximately 100 miles west of Tucson.

A Border Patrol officer driving a patrol vehicle encountered an American-made Mexican Army Humvee scout vehicle.

Mexican soldiers inside the Humvee opened fire on the U.S. Border Patrol agent with automatic rifles. Several bullets penetrated the rear window and windshield of his vehicle and smashed out the driver’s side window, inches from his head.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/06_01_02/Mexican_Soldiers_/mexican_soldiers_.html

And the site cited looks to be pretty right-wing.

But that's just my opinion.

Tansy Gold, who has a bad habit of thinking human rights trump property rights

Rights are violated all the time. That doesn't mean people don't have rights.

Doesn't fit into their sanitized xenophobia.

Perhaps the militia should focus on the "enablers" of the invasion. WTO, NAFTA, IMF.
And the Governments and corporations that support them.

These illegal migrant workers ARE NOT greedy rich people invading a defenseless country to steal more resources.

If these militia were anything other than racist bullies they would be targeting the real perpetrators.

Seems like these guys are focusing on the symptoms, not the roots, of the issue.

Lets stop these wage killing, environmental destroying agreemant as well. We need "fair" trade agreemants that insist on foreign standards of labor protection, health-care, environmental and political freedom in return for access to American markets (while the last ;-()

We have a winner!

You have identified the root causes. That is poverty in Mexico. Ultimately, we also have enough evidence - since ten years if being enacted NAFTA still hasn't increased living standards...making it worse in some cases.

Only by increasing the living standards in Mexico and other parts of Latin America, can any real headway be made in curbing illegal immigration and the other problems it entails for them and the residing people in the border towns.

If you didn't take steps to mark your "territory" there is no "crime". Besides, most teenagers are just passing through. This is more like teens breaking into your house, shitting on your crapper, stealing food from your fridge, taking up residency in the basement and justifying it all by washing your windows.

and are intent upon doing someting bad to you or yours, yes.

but they aren't technically going outside the law - they are kind of like hired security guards at a store or bank - I mean they don't hold and try anybody or dispence justice (at least in the normal situation, if you could call it that) - they just stop the "travelers" and call the border patrol - they come with busses and pick them up - take them back to the border and the next day it all happens again.

as you can see many who have replied here are too lazy to read the entire linked article , and want to fly with the gun totin redneck angle...

We send illegal immigrants to work in Iraq and they are hailed as hero's. Whats the matter with this picture?

Don

I'm not sure exactly where the original poster lives or where "the armed invasion" poster lives, but I live west of Phoenix in an area that is being rapidly over-developed. Until about 2 years ago, it was "untouched" desert. I put "untouched" in quotes because even though not bulldozed and paved over, the desert is ripe for trashing by off-roaders, plinkers, drinkers, and anyone too lazy or too cheap to take their trash to a landfill or even sneak it into the local Circle K's dumpster.

Hubby and I make frequent treks out into the desert, into some of the more-remote regions, and even there the trash is unavoidable. We've found cars, old appliances, tires, you name it, in places 20 miles from the nearest paved road. Most campfire pits are littered with broken bottles and beer cans.

I suppose it's easy to blame the travelling immigrants for the trashing of the desert, but I have a funny feeling there are some good ol' boys from this side of the border who have a lot to do with it, too.

But I'm no expert.

I'm just

Tansy Gold

When its all "agua pura" and mexican blankets you can tell. Believe me I can complain about US trash too! I know the difference - been picking it up all my life. You are right about the ignorant and lazy. What if I come shit in your driveway or let my dog chase your animals around your yard till they die? Or shoot up your windows? What I am talking about is HUGE camps with all the attendent refuse. This is not a couple diapers and beer bottles. This is litterally trailer loads of stuff. Small cities worth. Trails trampled by thousands of feet. It is estimated betwwn 1 and 3000 come across the Az border EVERY night, I bet its higher. Drive down to Cochise county sometime and I would be happy to show you. Ask the BLM what is going on in the San Pedro Riparian National Conservation Area, THAT is much worse than I have to deal with.

Phx seems to be out of the Border Patrol enforcement area - who are all the employees in your favorite restaurants, landsacping companies etc? Not so around here - You have to be legal - hence if you aren't you must hide, in turn no services for health, trash, transportation, etc. It just gets left on the ground. By thousands of people. The trash you are talking about is a lazy few, probably not more than a couple hundred in 5 years.

Still all in all using my comparison of illegal immigrants coming here to the US sending illegal immigrants to Iraq is not even a close call. I still would take all the immigrants coming here over all of the unexploded ordinance, Depleted Uranium, mercenaries, rapists, and torturers we are sending to Iraq any day of the week if I had the choice.

Don

"They made it up," Nethercott said of the charges. "If I had pistol- whipped these people, they'd have been dead. ... They're making me out to be a racist and a liar, and they're lying."

That needs to be heard by a jury of Nethercott's peers.

Leiva v. Ranch Rescue

I've heard people from this group speak on this. apparently this present suit stems from an early case where Nethercott made the FBI look like fools. The Testimony of the illegals is coerced and full of holes. That's what court is for ...to sort these things out.

If it were in these guy's interest to leave a trail of death and busted heads in their wake believe me , you'd have heard about it long ago....

From the interviews I've heard they go above and beyond normal self policing procedures because they know the FBI is waiting to pounce with the smallest of complaints.

Owning a gun is so near and dear to these folk , they don't want to come close to risking a felony and loss of that right...

is that you're such a badass, anybody who messed with you would end up dead, I'm not going to lose a moments sleep when I hand the judge a guilty verdict.

I don't live in Texas or even the Southwest, but I have now heard of Nethercott because of the trail of busted heads he's left in his wake. He *is* notorious, as in well known for his criminal activities and bad attitude. Add to crimes he committed against the Salvadorans felony flight to avoid prosecution. That's not the conduct of a decent law-abiding citizen.

*

adding another source, because some people are unfamiliar with Southern Poverty Law Center, or disagree with their politics

soldiers of misfortune

So what is Ranch Rescue?

In their actions, if not their words, their motive seems clear. They are the radical fringe of a conservative, nativist political movement opposed to poor, Third World immigrants streaming into a country that is growing less and less white.

And see the statements by Sheriff Alarcon. This group does not respect law enforcement.

If this guy is guilty or not for the crimes he is accused...that is what bthe COURTS are for. But it is a complete joke you use an article that points out the criminal culpability of the 2 Salvadorans to make a point how Nethercott is the criminal, gee 2 scared and busted illegals, I hope the DA has more evidence than this...//The two young Salvadorans had paid a coyote $200 for the crossing and a truck ride up state Highway 16, a main artery for undocumented immigrants heading out of the Valley. Their last hurdle lay ahead, the U.S. Border Patrol station in Hebbronville, 55 miles north.

Once they cleared the sleepy ranching town, they planned to continue on to San Antonio. Mancia, who saved for the last part of the trip while working at a laundry in Mexico City, was to catch a bus to Los Angeles. Leiva was on her way to Dallas.

First, though, to get past the Border Patrol, there would be miles of overland hiking through mesquite and thorny chaparral, which grows high, thick and unbroken in this part of South Texas.

Climbing out of the truck around 11 p.m., Leiva and Mancia scaled an 8-foot fence about seven miles south of the checkpoint, hoping to cut north and east around Hebbronville, a town of 4,654 residents. //

I suppose if you caught an interloper outside your daughters window , you'd have milk and cookies for him eh...
//As Mancia told authorities later, someone then tried to speak to him in Spanish--ordering him to stand, then kneel down--but he didn't understand what they wanted him to do. He wanted to comply because he thought they were soldiers, on account of their camouflage uniforms. But when he hesitated, he said, Nethercott pistol-whipped him on the back of the head.

Later, Sutton released the couple at his gate, chewed them out and called the Border Patrol to pick them up. Texas Ranger Doyle Holdridge, who found them on the empty highway, reported that Mancia had a knot on the back of his head "about half the size of your fist." //


the Sheriff may not think too much of him but the Border agents don't seem to have a problem...

"If this guy is guilty or not for the crimes he is accused...that is what bthe COURTS are for"

This from the guy supporting armed vigilante justice. I guess fair trials in the courts are for whites, and pistols are for browns.

No Browns have been shot by these groups, That would be front page.

he's charged with roughing up a TRESPASSER LURKING IN HIS BUSHES at night and then delivering him to the authorities...Get your Fucking facts STRAIGHT before you participate....

Get it over with. Sorry but we have the RIGHT as a nation to determine who comes in and out.

I'm not blind to human plight. But the way to DEAL with it is to insist on reforms in Mexico that address poverty. There is NO reason that Mexico should be in the state it is. It's an oil rich nation.

If I illegally crossed into Mexico and caused raucas, they'd beat the shit out of me. I don't advocate the same for illegal coming to the US. But we have to round them up and send them back to THEIR nation. We have to ADVERTISE vigilantly that you will be sent back. We have to do a better job of finding illegals in non-border states and sending them back.

People come more and more because they BELIEVE they will succeed. If you stop the flow and send massive numbers of people back, you'll curb the incidence of death during illegal border crossings.

Sorry, but I'm a moderate on this particular issue. You treat your neighbors civil, but you insist on rules. If you ask your neighbor not to trample over your back yard fence, break into your back door and steal food from your refrigerator, you kinda expect them to comply.

"If I illegally crossed into Mexico and caused raucas, they'd beat the shit out of me."

Oh yea I bet. Racism here at its finest. I've illegally crossed in to Mexico several times. (no passport, just crossed the rio grande on foot bypassing border checks) The Mexican people were always EXTREMELY kind to me. I can't imagine them turning hostile even if I caused a "raucas". Of course if by "raucas" you mean tried to beat the shit out of them first or do something else violent... Tell me, how many mexicans acted violent first before the white trash pistol whipped them? Do you know what would happen to a police officer that did that to people he/she arrested EVEN IF they pissed them off?

Justice is for the courts to deal out - not klansmen in disguise. I suspect these racists discovered lynching blacks wasn't something they could get away with so now they are trying to target brown people in the middle of the desert under the belief they can get away with it so long as it is out of the public eye and they claim them to be "invaders".

Demonizing your victims is the first tactic used by Nazis and the like. Saying "I killed a person invading the USA" sounds a lot more palatible than "I killed a spic crossing the border just because I could". I wonder how long it will be until these racists decide any Arab is an "invader" subject to their "justice" - citizen or not. No doubt the next "terrorist attack" will set them in full motion.

isn't the same as being in Mexico illegally - you better have your paperwork straight if you want to live or work there - they are much stricter about illegal foriegners than we are!

The Mexican justice system is a lot more "brutal" than ours.

lanparty....Maybe Beatrix can enlighten us as to her feelings about the Border patrol who are fired upon , I wonder if they feel these are invaders or just nice guys on peaceful business who just decided that going through the predesignated border entrance was just too much hassle, therefore it's much easier to shoot their way in.

I suppose she feels the BP are racist Nazis too.

(and don't give me the old "it never happens" I have many links ready to post , the BP are fired upon so often, mainstream refuses to report it for fear of alarming the public.)

If European nations with multiple languages, contrary religious traditions, centuries of cultured animosity against each other, diverse and unequal economies could eliminate all barriers between free and unhampered human travel between their citizens, then so can we. So should we.

I have addressed this in other threads many times here at the DU where many self-acclaimed "liberals" reveal themselves to be just about as liberal as the the old John Birch Society and the KKK.

Mexico is part of the United States as the United States is part of Mexico. The theft of the Southwest by U.S. administrations during the 1800's separated families wrongfully.

There is no justification for a border between Canada, the United States and Mexico today. None.

Of course, sadly there does still exist lots of thinly masked racism and xenophobia, doesn't there?

at equal jobs, food, etc., then things like this will always be a problem and there will be vigilante groups taking action into their own hands because noone else is doing enough fast enough to fit their taste for small town justice.

Borders = get to the root of the problem = equality

If you look all over the world, the problem is there are the haves and have nots and the widening gap makes for more unhappiness, wars, and coups.

Another problem here is that they've built these horrendous steel borders out of old carrier runways and now there are a TON of border crossers being corraled into very narrow areas; whereas before, the borders were wide open and there was not the impact as there is now.

If the US built these ugly, nasty things then they should provide the military to back them up, but then, that wouldn't be to their tastes nor liking now would it to have the people see military poised at its borders shooting those looking for freedom and equality or a leg up from the dire poverty that surrounds them.

Everyone who buys lettuce for $1 a head (assuming it is grown in the US)is complicit in illegal immigration. The government is not truly serious about stopping illegal immigration because large agribusiness benefits from the cheap labor. And we all benefit from having cheap food. If the growers were required to provide a living wage or hire only documented workers, I believe that this would stop a lot of this. Of course as long as people in Mexico make so little money that there is incentive for them to bribe some guy to lead them through the desert to find work in the US, it will continue. The immigrants themselves are really not to blame- they have no choice but to try and come to the US. Things are that desperate where they are. Many die in the attempt. I do believe that landowners have the right to protect their land but maybe there really needs to be a giant wall built along the border with Mexico, along the whole length until some system can be worked out to allow some to come in and work legally through the checkpoints.

A lot of them are legal now. Its construction in Illinois, service and hotel work in colorado, gardeners and lanscape workers in california, its restaurant and meat packing, the demand for these workers is HUGE. It aint just lettuce pickers.

Because I don't drive prices. Wholesalers do. If I voluntarily bought lettuce at $2 a head, the supermarket and wholesaler would take that money, not agriculture workers.

That's like saying that I should buy $100 sneakers instead of $25 sneakers. The theory here is that more money paid for the sneaker would benefit the worker. Well GUESS WHAT. People buy $100 pairs of sneakers EVERY DAY FROM NIKE. How do they treat their workers???? They treat them like COMPLETE SHIT.

Nike could force the standard of living of their workers THREE FOLD without hardly adding a SINGLE DOLLAR to each pair of sneakers. Do they do it ... NO. They are ass-hole lasseize-fair capitalists who drive the market to their self gratification. They are ferengi.

You could buy your lettuce for $2 from a local organic grower. (or grow your own) When he or she got enough business to hire help you would have MUCH more influence in seeing that fair wages were paid...
Again even for clothing there are SOME choices - you don't have to buy Nike (unless you have teens!) You could try to find something more socially "acceptible". I don't know if any mainstream shoes are made in the US anymore but most large cities or converted "art" communities still have hippy sandal makers around - you could do the summers in a socially concious way...

There are lots of ways to influence the market without ineffective rules and regulations. Problem is it costs money and most of us would rather complain than spend that extra buck to do what's right.

Each of those countries has its own heritage, and each defines itself to some extent by its differences from the U.S. I have read or heard nothing that would indicate that either Mexico or Canada are interested in anything other than trade ties with us.

Many consider the US/Canada border to be "open". (of course white canadians are not sub-human I suppose, so we can let them in)

There are no custom laws between the US and Canada????

The primary reason that the Candadian border is so "loose" (not open) is because our cultural and legal systems are both derived from common origins. We are descended from English law and tradition. We have values that are largely in sync.

Though, if you try to "openly" take automatic machine guns for "sport" in Canada, you'll probably have some trouble at that "open" border.

at internal borders. They are also attempting political union through the European Parliament and its various rulemaking bodies, and are attempting a common economic policy through, in part, the European Central Bank, and, of course, a common currency.

The U.S. and Canada had the longest unguarded border in the world, I believe, at least until 9/11. We have had trade agreements with the Canadians for a long time, pre-dating NAFTA, and our economies are quite linked. It makes sense since 2/3 of Canadians and something like 90% of U.S. residents speak English, we both have the common law system (except La and Que?), and our standards of living are similar.

However, the Canadians don't want Allan Greenspan, the U.S. dollar, our foreign policy and our rapacious capitalism, and I can't say that I blame them. I cannot imagine the Canadians wanting to get into any closer relationship with Mexico at this time due to major economic, political and cultural differences.

However, you cannot import and export without complying with trade regulations, which are frequently a source of friction between the two countries. Currently, we have ongoing arguments about forest products, mad cow and probably fishing rights. In addition, there have been controversies involving marketing of Canadian durum wheat in the U.S. over Canadian protectionism/subsidy related issues.

Although there are Canadians working in the U.S. illegally, the Canadian economy generates sufficient jobs in Canada so that Canadians are not forced to emigrate in order to find work. Most people really would prefer to stay in their own country close to family and friends and familiar culture and language if they could, IMHO.

Although skin tone does play a role in the Mexican immigration issue, I believe that if the Canadian economy were to tank so that it was at the level of Mexico (and ours miraculously stayed afloat), there would be similar efforts to stem a wave of illegal Canadian immigration. The reason would be to protect U.S. citizens and legal residents from losing their jobs to Canadians willing to work for peanuts. The difference might be that there would be more sympathy for Canadians, at least English speaking ones.

have you ever been to northern Europe? The amount of racicm that I heard from complete strangers there was shocking. The amount of legal immigration is a big issue to these people. I shudder to imagine what it would be like if they were faced with an ILLEGAL influx even a percentage of what we're dealing with.

and working restrictions between all the nations in the growing EU.

Is using "racism" as an argument against dropping the travel and work restrictions between the U.S. and Mexico all you have?

Why did you resort to that as a justification against following Europe's model?

unrestricted travel through peoples yards or properties in order to avoid oversight. I have absolutely no problem with the thousands of workers that cross the borders through legal channels on a daily basis , In fact I wish they would ease the requirements, so more could go that route in safety.

The USA is not a state of Mexico's yet. Until that happens there are immigration laws , they need to be followed.

If you want to insinuate I'm a racist for that...well then BITE ME Bumboclaat!

The EU is basically operating like states....I believe Switzerland is an island in all these states, Im not sure if it is included in the free travel and work restrictions. maybe a Swiss Du'er can enlighten us.

In Sweden, my mother works as an English teacher , many of her students are underprivleged and recent immigrants. I've heard all the stories of how difficult it is for these people to be accepted, The general feel I get from my mom is some Swedes are very threatened by what they perceive is the watering down of their proud culture.
When I was in Denmark , I had an older Danish gentleman come to me out of the blue and tell me how he liked America , but we should leave our blacks there.
In Paris my friend Dean(Tunisian) and I tried to enter a Nightclub in Montmatre. I was was told I could enter and he could not- straight up , in your face, just like that.
Dean speaks 10 languages and has 2 degrees, one in computer science.
I had other encounters with euracism during some of the 10 visits I've made there, I try to purge them from my mind.

So then, you can say they've solved it just like that , with a stroke of the pen , but I'm not sure how the whole of the population feels about that...maybe some other Euro DU'ers want to weigh in on this..

This thread is about vigilantes acting on their own.

The situation that you describe as "unrestricted travel through peoples yards or properties" is a direct consequence of a hypocritical and racist and nineteenth century approach to the border between the U.S. and Mexico.

I did not call you a racist. I questioned why the only argument you presented to my post was one that pointed to racial attitudes that you have experienced or know of anecdotally.

The solution to the problem that you describe is not --- and I am sure you agree with me here --- trigger happy rednecks chasing poor Latinos as a sport, but with a change in the border policy. I understand that my opinion is a minority one, but what is yours?

"It's about militias rounding up immigrants who travel through peoples yard or properties urestricted in order to bypass immigration."

//The solution to the problem that you describe is not --- and I am sure you agree with me here --- trigger happy rednecks chasing poor Latinos as a sport, but with a change in the border policy//
yes i do agree with you on this.But I think the ways of implimenting that change are where we differ.


First of all If Militias are the big problem , What would you like to see? property owners forced to confront large groups of unidentified trespassers on thier own without backup? the border patrol can't be there for every violation, they have their hands full.
Or would you like to see the protection of personal property made criminal , broad blanket, across the board for the entire US?

I think most here can agree that changing the economic condition in Mexico is the key (who was the DU'er that tried organizing unions down there? It ended in failure partially due to cultural differences. The population seems hard to mobilize in that direction.)
The problem I see is that the Elites in power of both the US and Mexico won't be satisfied until there is a shanty town outside of every US city with a climate tolerable enough to support it.
We should be working day and night to reverse that and the conditions in Mexico, the Mexican people need to take the lead. Worker reforms and labor struggles happened in the US with pain and bloodshed. Many people would like to see those gains disappear in a rapid fashion - Never forget that.

A lot of them are very unhappy about immigration legal and illegal from North Africa, the Middle East, as well as from the new EU countries in Eastern Europe and other Eastern European countries like Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and the Balkans. I've heard a lot of bad comments about the Albanians. In fact, I believe that there are restrictions on movement of labor from the new EU countries to the established ones for several years. For example, someone from Poland will be able to visit Amsterdam freely, but will not be able to move there and legally get a job for some time, because of the possibility that the new arrivals, who will work for less, will take jobs away from those already there, causing severe, and I mean severe, social problems.

The N & W Euros see problems with criminal gangs from E. Europe brining in drugs, prostitution, mafia-like protection rackets, etc. Just ask the NYC police about Russian gangs. There are also concerns about attacks by non-acculturated Muslim men on western women for going about uncovered, etc., in some parts of Europe.

IMHO, all cultures have their downsides and bad elements. Migration often brings both the good and bad of new cultures into established ones, and the mix is not always pleasant for all involved. There are those in each groups who do not adjust well.

And guess what, there is nothing we can do about it beyond encouraging better standards be WITHHOLDING access to our markets and borders.

Mexico is NOT part of the United States. Try polling the average Mexican to see if they are part of the US. Try polling the average Canadian if THEY think they are part of the United States. You will probably be shocked at the result.

There is a REASON for nationalism. Different peoples have different values. Different people have different ideas about how to run their country. Just as it's wrong to force our values on others, its wrong for you to attempt foisting Mexican, Canadian or WHATEVER values on Americans by trying to erode our national borders.

Civilization has existed with humans living peacefully together without nationalism, which is a rather new wrinkle in human social structure, by the way.

You really should read Peter Kropotkin on the origin and historic role of the nationalist state before you begin touting "nationalism" here.

http://www.dis.org/daver/anarchism/kropotkin/tsihr1.html

if anyone is interested in in a good read on this, i could recommend "The Devil's Highway" by Luis Urrea

It is just as Kali desribed here, I believe he may have even read the book from the sound of things.

there is also some concern that al queda is using this route to infiltrate into the US....rumours, mostly

my concern with some vigilantes is that sometimes they do not turn the immigrants over to the border patrol

there is alot of desparation and danger out there

Ok Kali,

What do you propose we do, in terms of government policy, to stem the flow of illegal immigrants?

Dr. Dean has said that trade agreements without labor and environmental standards increase illegal immigration.

I'm inclined to believe him.

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2004/052004/05312004/1086043534

Congresswoman Jo Ann Davis has introduced legislation that would require that hospitals providing emergency care for illegal aliens be reimbursed with a portion of the foreign aid earmarked for the patient's country. She says "there's the hope with taking back money from those countries, they would then put pressure and be stricter on their borders and not allow so many illegeals come across."

Yea. She is really brilliant. Cut the aid to poor countries so more of their citizens who were planning on staying there will need to come here to have something to eat. This is convoluted Rethug logic at its worst. This racist woman is a fucking moron and you support her ideas, eh?

Don

This is a good idea , we only pick up up tab once for their healthcare. It's not like kicking them to the curb and letting them die.

As it stands we're now paying twice, aid there, aid here.

what's a solution that would satisfy you , pay 10 times for them , 20 ????

why don't you just take all your money and just give it to these people in need of care... where does it stop with you.

My medical insurance is a large chunk of my income....Too bad not everyone is doing as well as you....must be nice to be you

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time to put your money where your mouth is....let's stick to mexico , since this seems to be a mojor point of contention with you, By the way my Mexican wife Cecilia is absolutley busting a gut over your "racist" comment ...that's a new one for me...But lets have em
start giving me links how the USA is spending trillions to keep Mexico in line militarily....educate me. Give me good proof I should open my wallet and give everything to these people.

I just live here. Devils highway is the western part of the border area between Az and Sonora - much harsher desert, most of the (summer) deaths occur there, though we get some, more in winter.

I don't know what the solution is. Seems to me a more open policy would be easier. In talking to Mexican friends and the occasional migrant it SEEMS the biggest problem is poor people being able to obtain the proper paperwork from the Mex. govt. Why not invent some kind of ID/crossing document for this side, charge a fraction of what they are paying to get over here now and actually have a self sufficient govt. program for once?

I had to laugh at the Al Queda thing - god, if they have a clue they are learning Spanish and just cruising in - the BP doesn't have much of a requirement - maybe one year of conversational Spanish - doubt if a lot of them could tell the diff between border spanich and Castilian! A coupld of years ago on the ranch next door 100 Chinese were caught in one caravan!

(i do apologize for my error Ma'am) :)

your insight here is much appreciated, as all first-hand information should be. the descriptions you have provided are all in there, the devils highway

i would recommend the book though for one thing: it does give an insiders view of the BP and what they go through. The author, liberal-leaning, was allowed inside access to the BP (mostly conservative-leaning) They are attacked from all sides on this issue. he gives them fair play.

Along the border. To keep people out including terrorists posing as immigrants. Something like the Berlin wall. It is possible.

Yeeeeehaw!

Behind curtain #1:
We can build a big frigging fence that is approximately 2,000
miles long (that's the distance between San Diego and Brownsville,
rougly. And put a large number of cops/troops behind it, because
there's no such thing as an impenetrable fence.

Behind curtain #2:
We can forget the fence and spend a lot of money to absorb the
migration (in terms of education, social services, etc.)

Behind curtain #3:
We can spend a lot of money developing the economies of
Mexico and Central America to eliminate the wealth differential
that causes the migration in the first place.

The approach that we choose will reflect who and what we
really are about as a nation. Personally, I'd choose option
3: of the bunch, it seems the most stabilizing.

J.

undocumented immigrants by requiring employers to check the validity of ID papers with the IRS and the Social Security Administration BEFORE hiring. If the person presenting the ID and the person originally issued the ID do not match up, then the prospective employee will not be hired, and will be subject to an immigration check. That way we will actually find out what jobs go unfilled and adjust legal immigration accordingly. We should not bring in people if we do not have jobs for them, for that will only bring lots of resentment from unemployed U.S. citizens and legal residents, which I think is one reason why there is a lot of opposition to mass immigration today.

I would like to bring in people from countries where our policies in the last 50-70 years have caused the greatest harm. I am particularly thinking about Central American countries where our goons or their local surrogates have wreaked havoc, like Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatamala, for example.