Middle-class teens turn prostitutes - This Could Be Your Kid

Law enforcement is on alert: teen prostitution is flourishing nationwide. The girls are younger, the trade is more violent—and, increasingly, the teenagers come from middle-class homes. A NEWSWEEK exclusive
 
Aug. 18 issue —  Like many teenage girls in Minneapolis, 17-year-old Stacey liked to hang out after school at the Mall of America, Minnesota’s vast shopping megaplex. Cute, blond and chatty, she flirted with boys and tried on the latest Gap fashions. One day last summer, Stacey, which isn’t her real name, says she was approached by a man who told her how pretty she was, and asked if he could buy her some clothes. “He was an older guy, dressed really well,” she recalls. “He said he just wanted to see me in the clothes.” Stacey agreed, and went home that night with a $250 outfit.

  THE ENCOUNTER TAUGHT Stacey a lesson: “Potentially good sex is a small price to pay for the freedom to spend money on what I want.” The easiest way, she discovered, was to offer her body in trade. Stacey, who lives with her parents in an upscale neighborhood, gets good grades in high school and plans to try out for the tennis team, began stripping for men in hotel rooms in exchange for money to buy clothes—then went on to more intimate activities. She placed ads on a local telephone personals service, offering “wealthy, generous” men “an evening of fun” for $400. All the while, she told her parents she was out with friends or at the mall, and was careful to be home before her midnight curfew.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/950065.asp

What is law enforcement on alert for? Chimp-o-nomics and no jobs for students let alone adults? No college loans for high school kids to try to do something with their lives?

Bush - Accessory to Prostitution to our children.

What if prostitution was legal and girls/boys only over the age of 26 could be employed? Why/how is/can prostitution be legal in Nevada but illegal everywhere else in America? To me this is got to be the biggest story in America that's being covered up. Who got paid off, why doesn't the justice dept. go after them? Why doesn't Falwell/Robertson complain loudly and form boycotts...???



http://darker0darker.tripod.com/

The average age of entry into prostitution in the US is 14. It's not a victimless crime.

I get sick of hearing about how harmless prostitution is. It harms the prostitutes no matter what their age. It damages the neighborhoods where they turn tricks or wait to get picked up.

If you assume that prostitution ("the world's oldest profession") will always occur -- and I do assume that -- why not make it legal and well-regulated? Collect taxes on it, too, to fund better education (leading to other professions).

Excuse me for being a bit libertarian here, but there are far better things for government to be doing than throwing prostitutes in jail. (How's that pro-woman?) I think government needs a darn good reason to criminalize transactions between consenting adults that don't harm others.(*)

(*) Yes, I know some people argue that prostitution lowers property values, spreads disease, breeds violence, and increases condom litter. But that's my point: illegal, underground prostitution does all those things. That's not Nevada or Amsterdam.

No, I've never employed a prostitute, and I have no plans to, legally or illegally.

It's not. Illegal prostitution THRIVES in Nevada. Since prostitution is still illegal in Vegas, it's practically a hooker mecca. A friend of mine looked up the escort ads in their phone book and it was about a couple hundred pages of them. And that doesn't count the street and casino hookers who seem pretty easy to find.

While I have some libertarian tendencies, the problem with legalizing horrible things is that it gives the societal imprimatur saying it is OK. Prostitution is NOT OK. It is bad for the prostitutes and bad for the Johns. And NO neighborhood in most major cities would want it.

Prostitution is one of many criminal activities that thrives because of lack of education and lack of opportunity. Work on those problems and we won't stop it, but we can limit it.

or welfare?

you can find out about the ugly reality of prostitution. It is very rarely an act between consenting adults.

perhaps.

No reason on the planet for prostution not to be legalized and regulated.

Of acts of prostitution are legal in the U.S. that's almost statistically meaningless. Only Reno, not even all of Nevada, allows legalized prostitution. ALL of the rest of the U.S. does not.

What would you have those other states do? Legalize prostitution and shove it in the poor neighborhoods just like the dumps and the incinerators and the prisons?

No thanks. We don't want that. What we want is opportunity so women don't see selling their bodies and souls as a way to make a living.

Prostitution is illegal in Reno (Washoe County) and Las Vegas (Clark County). It is legal in counties with small populations such as Nye County. The brothels are located in small towns such as Beatty (near Death Valley) or they may be located along an isolated stretch of road. Some of the brothels have sexy names, which make them easy to identify. Generally, the best way to recognize a brothel is the red light in front of the business.

Currently, I live in Las Vegas where prostitution is illegal and have seen no evidence that laws against prostitution have any benefit. If you drive or live in the poorer neighborhoods in Las Vegas, you may see or be approached by one of the prostitutes. I suspect that it is equally easy to find prostitutes in any other large city in the nation.

An additional problem is a double standard in enforcing anti-prostitution laws. As many DUers have pointed out in the past, the real victim of this crime are the prostitutes themselves. However, they are the ones who are most likely to be arrested. It is sometimes difficult for people to find legitimate employment if they have an arrest record. In Las Vegas, many employers require their employees to have a sheriff's card. Unfortunately, it is hard to get one of these cards if one has an arrest record thus making it more difficult for a prostitute to find legitimate work.

I would like to see the states legalize prostitution, regulate, and tax it. The states should have strict laws that regulate the treatment of prostitutes and protect the health of prostitutes and their customers. Brothels also should pay taxes. Use the money raised from taxing prostitution to arrest and prosecute those who lure or force children and teenagers into prostitution. Give long sentences to these pimps to discourage other adults from trying to make money off of children.

The money also should be used to help fund social services. Many prostitutes and other sex workers are victims of sexual abuse. Unfortunately, child protection agencies do not have enough resources to investigate cases of child abuse and neglect in many states. If they had more funding, perhaps they could do a better job of protecting children from violence and sexual assault. Protecting children from sexual assault will do more to fight prostitution than simply arresting prostitutes will.

The brothels could be located in a special "nightclub" district away from town. The brothels do not have to be located in poor neighborhoods.

wants to sell their body to some MORON who can't get a date, or who wants to spend $250 for 2 minutes of gratification, why not?

It IS just sex. Sex IS a commodity and always has been, and there is no reason for it not to be.

Men are men, and if they're sooooo hell bent on having sex, then HELL YEAH let's SELL them this commodity they are willing to lie and cheat for; willing to DIE for; willing to lose their families, jobs, houses, cars over?

Oh YEAH.

I'm all for highest bidder on this one.

It's just sex. It won't kill you, unlike drugs, booze, fast cars, cigarettes. Legalize it as a commodity, regulate it a little and the AIDs epidemic will lessen, for sure.

Selling sex is NOT without damage to the seller and society. That's why.

Crime does indeed increase in areas around "adult" businesses.

some time now.

No poverty or such problems, just, well, greed I guess!

And where are the parents here?

doing just what they should be doing. -Asking about school and talking about drugs and sex and discussing values. They give rides and meet friends and go to work and cook. They monitor reading material and internet usage and watch movies together, go to open house, and concerts and meet teachers.

Kids can hide things. Some kids can hide things really well.

There are lots of bad parents and, as with every human endeavor, there is always room for improvement. But a knee jerk reaction to instantly blame the parents does not always fly when it comes to teens.

But there are usually other issues that lead to this.

Since I can'r say "Bullshit" in the subject line anymore.

You said:

"And where are the parents here?"

Sounds like blame to me.

Yeah, there's other issues here. The one girl in the story gets $400 a night. What parent can afford to give their kid THAT kind of allowance?
The girls are pretty short-sighted. All they know is that they're getting their rocks off a lot and making big money while they do it. They haven't gotten roughed up, knocked up or infected yet...

Kids grow up too early these days, all so they enter the food chain of consumerism earlier...

started coming home with hundreds of $$ of clothes I knew I hadn't bought, I'd know something was up. I agree with Carlos. The parents, at least in this case, should at least be paying attention to her purchases.

On the drive in this morning I said to myself,
"Self, if the kid started coming home with all this expensive stuff, and I KNEW how little I was giving her as an allowance, I'd have to start asking some questions..."

But....What if she's not showing signs of having a huge income? (yeah, I know, they're kids)

I would probably NEVER think she was hooking. Probably think she was either pushing dope or shoplifting...

"...All the while, she told her parents she was out with friends or at the mall, and was careful to be home before her midnight curfew...."

If my kid tells me who she's going out with, leaves contact numbes that are genuine, and is home when I tell her to be, Just WHY should I have reason to doubt her?

How would you feel, Carlos, if you told YOUR mom where you going and she didn't trust you/believe you?

As has already been pointed out to you, Carlos, sometimes kids are just VERY good at covering their tracks.


I seem to recall that you have no kids. Would you kindly reserve your morally outraged pontificating for topics that you DO have some practical experience with?

they are selling their souls

I've never even seen a soul for sale...

I've been out of the market for a while... ;-)

what I mean?

quietly removed before the fair

but interesting that pimps would feel free to set up a job application procedure!

Girls have been figuring this out for, oh, thousands of years now.

Obviously someone didn't teach this girl the right values. It wasn't George Bush.

It's not like she's doing tricks because she's starving. She's materialistic.

I'm not a fan of prostitution per se. But at seventeen the girl in the story is at the age of consent in many states. She's doing this voluntarily. She's not a victim. As you say she's materialistic.

The sad fact is she's not much different from many women I've known who think a man's worth is measured by mainly his bank portfolio. The difference between a golddigger and a prostitute is minimal.

Teenagers' brains become "unwired" at puberty and they generally don't achieve equilibrium again until about age 20 or 21. It's not a coincidence that pimps and polygamists both prey on teenage girls (and sometimes teenage boys).

And, by the way, I know from my work with the homeless that 100% of homeless teenagers engage in "survival sex." It's economic desperation and not love of f**king that drives them to it.

Oh, and I hate to say this but I agree with you that far too many women care about how much money a man has. But from what I have seen of life in my 50+ years I would say those women get what they deserve and I wouldn't want it.

1 - not all teenagers' brains become "unwired". Yes, some do, but it's not necessarily a biological definite. For example, there are many cultures where "adolescent angst" simply doesn't exist, and the transition from childhood to adulthood is marked ceremonially but without any intermediary stage of anger, moodswings, rebellion etc. (unless my anthropology prof was lying to us).

2 - this wasn't a case of "survival sex". This girl wanted some money and saw prostitution as an easy way to get it.

I'm not belittling your points or experience, but thought I would just mention those things.

P.

If you read the part about brain development you will see that teenage brains do indeed become "unwired," although some, especially males, do become far more unwired than others.

http://www.duke.edu/~amwhite/alc_adol_pf.html

There are thousands of other links about this but I just happened to come across this one first. I can also tell you first-hand about what happens to teenagers' brains because I am raising one. :)

Also, I do realize that the case in point is not a case of "survival sex." I was just mentioning this because so many people want to glamorize the business when there is nothing pretty about it.

Yep. There is nothing in this article to suggest that either this girl really NEEDED money for anything, or that she'd tried and failed to get a job.

What this boils down to (in this specific case) is that the girl was a) materialistic b) lazy and c) amoral.

Note that I say "amoral" rather than "immoral" - she is failing to see the moral implications of trading her body for new clothes.

She's taken the easy way out and rather than work for what she wants she's decided to whore herself for it.

IMHO this case is symptomatic of where things have gone in a lot of the Western world - many kids want EVERYTHING NOW but are not prepared to put in any effort to get it. They see material objects as a right, rather than a goal to be achieved through work.

Whilst I agree that there is no direct link to Bush in this instance, consider this - when you have got someone in charge who disregards common opinion and morality to take resources by force, and who operates nepotistically to make the rich richer, then its hardly surprising if kids grow up to see unrestricted greed as a good thing. Why work for your money when it can be given to you or made simply through immoral actions?

It's not just kids doing this either - an ex girlfriend of mine+her best friend (both later 20s) constantly went out picking up rich guys and talked about putting on "shows" for Arab businessmen. They were totally materialistic and prepared to do anything to make money.

When 17 year olds deliberately decide that selling sex is the easiest way for them to get a new outfit then I find it hard to think of them as victims, rather than being self-obsessed, materialistic and mercenary.

Somewhere along the line, this girl has failed to learn some important lessons about what is right and what is wrong and that property and RESPECT must be earned. I hope that she learns them before it's too late and her young life is ruined.

And I agree, at least on the greater implications of a culture that has put instant gratification ahead of work and sacrifice. However, even a seventeen year old is still a child, or very near one. They cannot all be held responsible for every mistake they make, even one as bad as this.

although I agree with you that both are manifestations of a culture that has some serious problems.

I'd blame it more on the media than anything else.

And Madonna. Madonna pretty much killed off the women's movement. Yet women seemed to champion her as an advocate of an "empowered female". I never did understand that. When girls ten years old wanted to be "just like Madonna" an entire generation of western females got pretty fucked up.

Britney Spears took over from there.

Then you've got the internet, where it seems that every girl under the age of 20 has posed nude and even done hardcore.

Has anyone read an issue of "Cosmo" lately? I was shocked, the last time I saw one. It seemed to be written by 15 year olds, for 15 year olds. Like it was dictated by an illiterate valley girl. Why do women buy this shit?

But to blame Bush for this is exactly like the freepers blaming Clinton for every fucking thing that's ever happened. It', uh, doesn't demonstrate a high level of, uh, intelligence.

Someone brought Bush into it and I also thought that it was a silly thing to do to link them causally.

However, I thought it worth pointing out that having a whore running the country probably doesn't produce an environment conducive to moral development. I wasn't implying cause and am not so illogical as to blame Bush for everything.

The points you make are interesting and valid.

P.

To blame Madonna for this is exactly like the freepers blaming Clinton for every fucking thing that's ever happened. It', uh, doesn't demonstrate a high level of, uh, intelligence.


Personally I worry more about these girls safety and health than anything else. Girls this age don't necessarily have the common sense to pick up on a bad vibe in a given situation like a mature woman would. I see them ending up in very dangerous situations, and it breaks my heart to think about something bad happening to someone's baby because she found herself in a part of town that she would normally would never be in, hanging out with people she would normally never hang around. I see the chances for these girls to get involved with drugs at an early age shooting way up, both because, frankly, cocaine and hookers kinda go hand in hand, and because drugs are an easy way to mask the nearly inevitable feeling of shame that most of them are going to suffer from by their actions. Oh, and being high is about the only way to bring yourself to have sex with certain people out there, lets face it. And those are just the kind of people that are likely to call prostitutes to begin with, come to think of it.

However, the illegality of prostitution really adds to all the aforementioned problems, rather than alleviating any of them.

If I may don my tinfoil hat for a minute, if we continue to see 'sex-scandal' type stories at the rate we've seen them lately (which does seem higher than usual, to me, anyway) all the way until election, I'm going to get suspicious that an attempt is being made to divide us liberals along gender lines (is there anything more divisive on DU than these types of stories?), and to paint 'liberal thought' as being the underlying 'cause' of whats 'gone wrong' in America. I'll bet the evil 'internet' (coincidentally the only free media left) will also share blame for all this 'depravity' we're seeing as well.

Personally I don't buy that this problem is all that widespread. The VRWC knows they can get a lot of mileage out of ONE CASE with something like this.

And I for one could do without being patronised or having my, uh, intelligence questioned in this way during a sensible and reasoned debate too.

:hi:

P.

Advertising is a powerful and pervasive force...if it didn't work billions wouldn't be spent on it annually. Advertisers are very skilled at psychological exploitation. Somewhere in this girl's route to becoming a teen hooker for clothes is a lot of Gap ads and encouragement for instant gratification. Try watching Saturday morning cartoons to get an idea of how bad it is these days...kids today are the most advertised to EVER.

You're right for once.

I agree this a mere symptom of a wider societal (note not moral) dilemma. There does appear to be an obsession with what you've got not, how you got it. I hate MTV cribs for this very reason. The barely literate seemingly pro violence, mysoginist artists largeing it around in their mega mansions scream "it doesn't matter how you get it, just get it".

This girl has made a choice. She's aiming to get money in the easiest way she can think of. There appears to be little risk assesment. It's just about getting what she wants. Maybe she'll realise that no amount of "stuff" will make her happy. Maybe one of her Johns will beat her to death. Maybe she'll just make loads of money.

Mind you it's a job that's difficult to outsource. I imagine programmers will be whoring themselves in a couple of years.

You cheeky fucker!

:-)

P.

Unfortunately, "compensated dating," or enjo kosai, was a practice that did not come with any widespread social stigma until only very recently.

A law was passed a few years back that targeted underage prostitution in order to be a disincentive for the men that pay for this kind of thing. I do not know any statistics offhand but I believe that this has just pushed it underground. Perhaps the law has helped high school girls to realize that enjo kosai is wrong. With all of the "mail friend" services and other methods of making arrangements, it has probably become very difficult to track.

Most are girls who did enjo kosai did not need the money but used it to buy pricey accessories.

I am surprised to hear that this is also a problem in the U.S. as well.

a Time article from a couple of years ago

Oddly, I was going to mention the situation in Japan where it has been commonplace and, if not acceptable then at least ignored, for a long time.

However, there was a power cut and I lost my posting and forgot to include that comment in the repost!

I suppose one could argue that although these girls aren't forced into doing it in order to survive, one must consider that (especially in Japan) there is so much emphasis placed on keeping up materially with one's peers that they're under tremendous pressure to get money.

P.

I would not call it "good," however. Regarding the acceptability of it all, I believe that most young women frown on this kind of materialism, or at least on this means to obtaining those luxury goods. It is difficult to say.

Anyhow, this is a trend that I did not expect to see cross the Pacific.

not that the situation itself was good.

Sumimasen.

P.

ki ni shinakute ii, yo!

So I can't work out what you're saying about me!

:-)

P.

eom

Sayonnara!

P.

I had a great conversation with my 20 year old stepdaughter.. we talked about how there is such pressure on girls, in the past 10 years, to view their sexuality as teens to their self esteem. It's a media/ad thing.. it's a marketing tool that has been unleashed on the girls. It's not harmless. While girls used to have strong female role models.. they now value celebs that are sex-obsessed. Does anyone, besides a early 20-something, recall any of their celeb favorites posing as close to nude as possible on any second rate men's magazine as soon as they hit 18? Now, it's considered publicity 101 for a girl to come of age, then bare all on a magazine cover and inside.. then the cliched article that details their sex life. Girls are being sexualized now at 11 and up... and they can't see that Madison Avenue is diminishing them. Sex is not power.. it's slavery if done for the wrong reasons. Intelligence is power, strength is power, nice is power. The emphasis on valley-girl accents and weak, scrawny, overly sexed-up "role models" for girls puts them back into the corsets and spiked shoes that minimized their power before Women's Lib.

It's biology

The media is not a biological entity. The wholesale demoralization of women is not a natural occurance. The whoring of our daughters lives in order to feed a billion dollar clothing, music, and cosmetic business is not natural.

sounds like not only age discrimination, but bad business sense.

employeement. Below 26 I think you might regret your actions later in life. Life has some struggles and you need these to build your character. I think prostitution is quick, easy, and lazy money. I think people who couldn't do anything else end up doing this. I think young kids meet struggles in life, money (Capitalism), and prostitution is the easy way out. It's nice fun and quick money. But I would imagine it gets terrible really quickly.

I remember the cool teachers would dump all this stuff on us in lecture. Many of the students would be squirming in their chairs, sweating, breathing heavy, eyes popped out of sockets... grasping to understand and the good teachers would laugh, 'It hurt your brain huh? Well good, it's good practice for life.'

I don't think anyone but sexamanic goes into prostitution for fun, it's the easiest money they can get.

In conclusion, the kids need to squirm until 26 to build their character and minds then they might be able to make a free choice to do this.

Also, if 26 is legal in all states there wouldn't be any demand to find illegal prostitutes 14-25 on the streets.

Interesting discussion...

It might help to note that it's not one issue under discussion, but several.

Advocates of legalizing various forms of sex work are not necessarily advocating the condoning of exploitive practices.

Those troubled by the larger implications of a social matrix that facilitates such "choices" by young adults are not necessarily advocating for puritanical norms enforced by shame, legal sanctions, etc.

The problem here, as with so many issues around the culture/morality/public health core, is that human nature is vastly complex, and what "right" and "wrong" emerges only at the edges of a wide gray swath.

This makes for tough going for public policy choices.

I have known some mighty mature teenagers. I have known some mighty naive, victimizable adults. No matter where you draw a public policy line about "age of consent," etc., there will be individual cases that end up on the wrong side of that line for their own individual circumstances.

Throw in our culture's morbidly pathological obsession with sex, and the bizarre twists that produces in the media, the public consciousness, the demands we make of our policy makers and enforcers, and you have an almost perfect "no-win" situation.

Not everyone believes that sex, sexual acts, participation in sexual acts, etc., is part of a deep expression/revelation/sharing of intimate personal identity, etc. In other words, a friendly f*** is not necessarily going to scar you for life, some folks believe. Some folks even believe that a commercial transaction involving sex between two mature consenting adults does not absolutely guarantee deep psychological trauma, permanent damage, and/or years of scarred, shattered life.

The coupling of the sex act with intense compulsions about religion, morality, ethics, etc., is a sociological artifact created for the very valid and appropriate purpose of promoting stable economic units for the nurturing of children and support of adults. The psychological mechanisms that produce such powerful identification of sexual expression with identity, self-worth, etc., are some of the most durable and effective elements of human culture, but they don't always "take" to the same degree with everyone, and we should never lose sight of what they are -- means, not ends. Important means, effective means, necessary means, means that have made much of human cultural evolution possible and make much of current human social organization hold together. But means nonetheless -- and it is the end that is achieved by those means that REALLY matters.

The commercialization of sex will never go away. Even if licensed, regulated, taxed, etc., the societal problems arising from our cultural obsessions and individual pathologies will not go away. No matter where you draw the "legal" line, when it comes to sex, there will always, always be an extra-legal underworld of unsanctioned practice, because human sexual nature includes a wide streak of perversity that requires it.

So what is the best public policy choice?

My own personal bias is that nothing that occurs solely between consenting adults is inherently morally wrong. The problem is that my definition of "adult" doesn't relate to calendar ages, and is so idiosyncratic that it could never be used as a legal tool.

The 17-year-old in the news story could well be an "adult" by my definition (I don't know her, I can't tell.) Adults often make choices that I don't morally approve of, would not make myself, and would not want someone I loved making.

On the other hand, she may not be an adult, in which case, she has some pretty dusty baggage to carry with her into adulthood. Ultimately, it will catch up to her and cause her great pain. Dealing with the reality of that pain and her own choices will be part of the process that will ultimately make her an adult. Maybe a likeable one, maybe not.

It is true that the physical processes of puberty change the hormonal balance and often result in incidents of poor judgement. But I've known plenty of young people in the throes of nature's worst hormonal storms to make some pretty sound, mature choices, too. We cannot and should not make all our laws on the basis of adolescence being some kind of temporary, morally/mentally incapacitating condition that requires us to build hedges, fences, and moats around people until the storms of puberty fade away.

I'm not a big believer in harm reduction as a public policy raison d'etre. I think too often it is a cheap way out of a difficult and expensive public dilemma, one that ignores the pain of some individuals to pander to the comfort level of a larger group.

But I think there are some genuine places where it is the only productive public policy approach to a "no win" dilemma, and commercial sex may be one of them. Focus on providing sex workers with safety, and ensuring that the commercial benefit derived from the transaction goes directly to them, rather than to a class of exploitive individual and/or corporate whoremasters. (Will many of the workers turn right around and use their earnings to victimize themselves in nasty exploitive relationships? Sure... but that's not something public policy can fruitfully address on a broad enough scale to be effective.)

Tax it and use the revenues solely to provide that safety and defray the costs of keeping sex businesses from having a negative impact on their social environment.

Then focus costly law enforcement on those black-and-white edges, where there is social consensus.

And continually re-examine definitions, evolving cultural standards, and our public policy responses to them.

And no one will ever be happy with it.

diffidently,
Bright

Very well put. Spot-on. This is the definitive post on the subject, from my perspective. Hope everyone will read and find themselves nodding in agreement as I did. But you know that will never happen ;)

I particularly appreciate the distinction you made about maturity vs. calendar age, and how the reality of the difference between them makes public policy so damn difficult. I've thought about that dilemna many many times in my days, and had some heated debates with people about it.

I think we can all agree that the particular reality of the story is troubling almost however you look at it, and does not lend itself to any truly workable solutions in a free society. However, I don't see how prostitution being illegal solves any of the story's troubling aspects.

Regarding costly law enforcement and zero tolerance...it's only because these kids are affluent or semi-affluent that raises the level of outrage to the point where costly resources and legislative changes to criminal codes are not only considered justified but demanded.

When teen prostitution was merely a problem for the urban and rural poor, it was largely ignored.

Saves me the trouble of comming up with something to say.

not to defend her actions, but if she were trading sex for drugs- as a lot of girls did for coke when I was her age, the consequences could be a lot worse.

This is an age old problem. 20+ years ago when I was in college many women would prostitute themselves for a line of blow! The allure will not go away. Men have pretty baubles. Young women have desirable assets. Its Capitalism!

"Why doesn't Falwell/Robertson complain loudly and form boycotts...???"

Too busy using their services, maybe? ;)

Nobody ever feels sorry for the poor trick who has to P A Y money to have sex with women. That is pretty degrading if you ask me.

A: The trick, obviously, has significant money to spend.
B: The trick has a spouse/partner at home in most cases. This isn't about having to spend money to buy sex, it's about an illicit thrill. (case in point: Hugh Grant.)
C: The trick has...er...other options that don't cost a dime.

To feel sorry for the trick is absurd.

Some men will give you stuff (clothes, money, food, drugs, cars) if they have sex with them. Generally, girls (rich, poor, middle class) who go into prostitution were sexually abused when they were younger. Dad, Mom's new boyfriend or Uncle Frank gave them presents for sex, so they learn young about this. It's so very sad.

ALL of them teach girls that they can't get anywhere they want and get anything they want with their looks.

The whole concept of dating and male-female relationships is sorta askin to prostitution anyway.

The Male pays for dinner, movie, show, ect and in exchange he hopes to get sex.

Maybe not that night...but think of it as a down payment for future sexual encounters.

Any man who's never bought a woman anything in the hopes of getting some is either lying...or extremely good looking.

its "damn near 100% of women in sex industries have been sexually abused"

altough, i still think legalizationg and regulation is a much better approach than pushing this to the underground.

at least if it were legal, a better support system could be in place to try to minimize damage from this "profession".

That would clear up a lot of these troubles.

If you think this is a good idea. Tell us more. Give us details.

How would you set up the rules? Would you be able to operate a whorehouse in any business district? Would it be zoned into only poor neighborhoods? How often would you test them medically? How would you prevent STDs? (Not all STDs are prevent by condoms.)

You gave me a litany of issues to detail implementable policy regarding legalizable prostitution.

I'll gladly do so, if you agree to pick out one particular aspect of legalizing prostitution that I can focus on. I don't have the time to type in detailed policy proposals for you to read (and I suspect you realize this).

If you just pick one area as representative, though, I will give it a crack.


I can give you some general answers to your questions now, though.

How would you set up the rules?
As mentioned, give me one particular aspect to focus on and I'll try and "set up the rules" for that aspect of legalized prostitution.

Would you be able to operate a whorehouse in any business district?
Ideally, yes. Maybe subzone conventional districts into adult areas, if community wishes.


Would it be zoned into only poor neighborhoods?
No.

How often would you test them medically?
Too open ended a question. The only good answer would be as often as experience with legalized prostitution makes necessary. All answers on this topic come with learning curves, this one is no different.

How would you prevent STDs? (Not all STDs are prevent by condoms.)
I wouldn't. Goal would be to minimize, not eliminate spread of STDs vis prostitution. As such a constellation of approaches, which would include mandated use of condoms, perhaps even vaginal condoms, would be required. Not expecting to make this a risk-free activity.

If you want more detailed answers on a particular topic, let me know.

Let's pick Maryland, it's right next door to me and it's less complex than Virginia.

Where do you put whorehouses? How does one become licensed to be a prostitute? How do you plan to get past the moral outrage such a plan would cause?

OK, you don't limit it to poor neighboods, so how do you propose it getting past zoning boards in any jurisdiction OTHER than poor neighborhoods?

So you acknowledge that you won't stop STDs and, in fact, would be spreading some by increasing the ability of prostitutes to reach their target markets.

next to strip clubs.

Or just combine the two.

When it comes down to it legalized and regulated prostitution can seem to be a bad solution to many people not only because of their moral views, but also because of their personal experience with the effects of sex business. See the simple elegance of the solution requires an paradigm shift that many people are not capable of.
The fact is that countries like the Netherlands that have a legalized and regulated sex industries have found that the benefits far outweigh any of the theoretical short comings. The first thing that we need to understand is that prostitution is not going away, ever. It has always been here and always will be.
When it is illegal then it just gets pushed into the criminal underground. It is the criminal part that makes prostitution so terrible in the U.S. today. In a well regulated environment these girl wound not have to fear, their violent pimps, potentially violent costumers, and the many murderers that prey on the street walkers. In a well regulated environment the girls would have to use condoms, and they would be checked constantly for any communicable diseases. Will that stop VD’s dead in their tracks? No, but it would slow them a lot more then our present system does.
If you look at the facts they are pretty simple, black & white, the Netherlands solution works. It gets criminals off the street and puts them out of business, it makes it a whole lot safer for the girls, and it cuts down on the spread of disease by prostitution, in fact they even have less girl involved in prostitution because no little homeless girls/boy are forced into it like some many are in the U.S. by predatory pimps. It is a shame that we let our own moral hang ups and self-righteousness get in the way of our compassion.

Yes, yippee for the Netherlands where women can sit in a store window and sell their bodies. Boy aren't they just damn progressive.

Makes me sick.

Yes, prosititution will probably always be with us, that doesn't mean we have to facilitate it. That doesn't mean we let whorehouses recruit on campus. That doesn't mean we let the Mustang Ranch advertise on Monday Night Football.

Every nation sets limits on what it will allow. The problem with the extremes of the libertarian view is that they say it's OK to do whatever anyone wants, EVEN when that screws them up royally.

No. We legislate morality all the time. This is one of those times where it is right to do so.

"it's OK to do whatever anyone wants, EVEN when that screws them up royally."

It's better than doing whatever anyone wants, when it screws *others* up royally.

"Yes, yippee for the Netherlands where women can sit in a store window and sell their bodies. Boy aren't they just damn progressive.
Makes me sick."

So the system we have in that states is a lot better. Women getting beaten by their pimps. Getting into cars with strangers to drive to secluded locations were they are often physically abused, and even sometimes murdered. NOW THAT MAKE ME SICK. It makes me want to puke to think that someone would rather have these girls on the streets then in a safe and regulated environment.


“Yes, prosititution(sic) will probably always be with us, that doesn't mean we have to facilitate it."

Regulation is not the same as facilitation. Yes it makes the girl safe, but it also takes out the criminal element. The pimps, organized crime, etc... would be devastated. What is worse the girl turning a trick, or the vicious criminal making a good living, though fear, abuse and murder.


“ That doesn't mean we let whorehouses recruit on campus. That doesn't mean we let the Mustang Ranch advertise on Monday Night Football.”

I don’t think I really have to respond to this statement because it is so blatantly stupid. What I will say is right now the pimps go down to the homeless shelters and offer kids food, clothing, a place to stay, money and drugs. When a run away gets sucked into prostitution like this she/he is a victim. If prostitution was a regulated industry, then at least the prostitutes would be consenting adults.

"Every nation sets limits on what it will allow. The problem with the extremes of the libertarian view is that they say it's OK to do whatever anyone wants, EVEN when that screws them up royally."

Well my friend what is it that we are doing to fix the problem here. They tried it in the Netherlands, and it worked. You already admit that the oldest profession is not going to go away. So why do we turn it over to the criminals to run? In Europe the whore houses used to be regulated by the Church. They felt it was Christian to hate the sin, but love the sinner. (Christians really like this guy named Jesus and he thought compassion for thy fellow man was important or something.) So the churches at the time would check the girls monthly for sores, check the premises to make sure they were habitable, and pray for the girls. Around the time of the reformation this practice died out, but historians agree that the girl were a lot better off with the preist.


"No. We legislate morality all the time. This is one of those times where it is right to do so."

When is it right to legislate morality? "My choice is what I choose to do, and if I'm causing no harm is shouldn't bother you. Your choice is who you choose to be, and if you’re causing no harm then you're alright by me." (Ben Harper)

So the system isn't better, why replace it with something that is also repugnant?

Why not, instead, do something better?

At issue is how MUCH prostitution we have, not just how we facilitate it. If we legalize it, it will grow as a business and many women who might never have considered it may well do so. Moral fabric of a nation might not mean much to you, but it does to me.

Do you honestly think legalizing prostitution will eliminate the illegal version? Sort of like the legal lottery eliminated illegal gambling. LOL. It will just create a nationwide climate where using people as sex slaves is tolerated. No thanks.

Again, you act like criminals will drop out of this business. They won't. They will be the first ones into the legal realm, bringing with them all of their old tactics. It will also give them a cover to operate their illegal side businesses -- children, kidnapping, drugs, etc.

Hell if I always know "When is it right to legislate morality?" But I know this much, I won't support any plan that uses people like slaves or animals. There IS a better way. That's providing opportunity and education for people.

there would be no prostitution. Just like ideally there would be no abortion. But we are faced with the same problem. Both will still happen, just in a less safe environment. Education and opportunity will significantly cut down on both of these from happening, but neither will ever be completely eradicated.

Look, I don't understand why it is legal for me to pay a consenting adult to wash my hair, mow my lawn, clean my toilet, massage my feet, do my dishes, scrub my bathtub, dance for me naked (in certain places), take a shit on them (as long as it's not for 'sexual purposes' but it's illegal to pay someone to suck my dick. how fucking stupid is that? (please note that I have no actual interest in paying someone in cash for sexual favours, I pay enough (quite willingly) in cuddling, massages and small talk as it is) I can pay you (if you are willing) to drink my urine, but not to touch my penis. think about the absurdity of that.

And I will propose licensing obligations for prostitution:

1: prostitutes (male or female) must be independant contractors, not directly in the employ of anyone else.

2: prostitutes must be 18 years of age. no exceptions.

3: prostitutes must complete a course on personal care, including the use of condoms and self defense.

4: prostitutes must register as independant contractors in the same manner proscribed by local law for all other independant contractors.

5: Prostitutes must, at their own expense, undergo complete physical exams, including testing for STDS, every three months. The most recent certificate must be posted in their place of business, like a liquor license.

6: Every two years, Prostitutes must submit to an audit by a licensed professional (no names of johns, but this will help keep organized crime out of the gig)

7: Prositutes are required to contribute to a retirement fund, be it an IRA or pension plan.


how's that for a start? I have no doubt that most of the people engaged in prostitution in this country are victims of violence and abuse. THe above rules will diminish the influnce of pimps and organized crime on the industry and provide a safer working environment for those women who may choose to enter the industry, while providing a check on the influx of underage or exploited people. Erase the stigma of legal prostitution, and you make it easier for people involved in the industry to get out, erase the influence of violence, and you make it easier for people to get out. educate the workforce, and they will have options. Soem women may, like the girl in this story (when she turns 18) choose to enter the profession, but under my plan, they will be doing it with their eyes more open, and have more opportunities to succeed after their stint is done.

Look, I don't particularly care for prostitution. I have no interest in it, just as I have no interest in strip clubs. But if men and women want to make some money dancing naked, and someone is desperate enough to pay them, and it is safe for both parties, then I don't really care.

“Do you honestly think legalizing prostitution will eliminate the illegal version? Sort of like the legal lottery eliminated illegal gambling. LOL.”

This whole statement is absurd. First of all you can’t compare a legal lottery to illegal gambling. A logically viable comparison would be between legal alcohol sales and illegal bootlegging. When prohibition ended the bootlegging industry evaporated, and organized crime was devastated.

One of the many illegal endeavors that kept the mob afloat after this was number running. Number running was highly profitable because unlike other gambling business it did not take a centralize location that was vulnerable to stings. Law enforcement agencies across the country tried unsuccessfully for years to stamp out number running because it had become the cash cow of organized crime, low risk, high yields.

Ok, I bet you guessed what happen next already but I’ll still tell you. Law enforcement never even made a dent in the number running business, but then slowly states started to run their own lotteries, and the number running business disappeared, organized crime was dealt another huge blow.

“Again, you act like criminals will drop out of this business. They won't. They will be the first ones into the legal realm, bringing with them all of their old tactics. It will also give them a cover to operate their illegal side businesses -- children, kidnapping (sic), drugs, etc.”

It would be very easy to regulate the business in such a way that would prevent criminals for running this business. Look at Nevada, originally the mob ran the casino business, but the high levels of regulation and scrutiny for the gaming industry in Nevada ran the mob right out of business. It was a lot more profitable for people in the gaming industry to play it clean and sever any ties with organized crime.

As for giving the criminals cover, for other illegal activities, that is just laughable. Legalization and regulation would pull prostitution away from the cover of the underworld and put those engaged in industry under continuous scrutiny. The reason that the side businesses of using children, kidnaping, etc... are able to operate so effectively, is because they are able to hide under the haze created by the huge illegal prostitution industry. Legalize and regulate, poof no more haze to hide behind.

I'll do this, but you gave me more than one question to answer in detail, so my answers will be less concrete than you might have liked initially. I'll write them up and post them in a few days (week at most).

So you acknowledge that you won't stop STDs and, in fact, would be spreading some by increasing the ability of prostitutes to reach their target markets.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. It remains to be seen that the STD rate would go up noticeably. That would depend on the size of the increase in business prostitution-related services would see due to legalization. Wouldn't shock, surprise, or bother me terribly either way, unless an epidemic results. All industries generate environmental, social, and personal costs. It is the role of government to mitigate those costs, and shift them to where they will do less harm. Proper regulation can do so, while permitting the industry to continue.


Also, briefly:

how do you propose it getting past zoning boards in any jurisdiction OTHER than poor neighborhoods?

I don't. Which communities choose to maintain legal prostitution is their business. If poor communities choose to do this more often than well-off communities, that is their right and prerogative. If sex is a resource that any community or group of people feel they can sell, they should be permitted to sell it. Why is it worse for people in a community to decide they can sell sex than for them to decide they should tear up the earth and dig out some anthracite, consigning some people to black lung and perpetuating our dependence on dirty fossil fuels? I wouldn't ban the latter and can't justify banning the former.

But I can see many well off areas allowing discreet and regulated prostitution services. I guarantee, were prostitution legalized, you'd see a lot of upscale whorehouses in Manhattan and Beverly Hills.

Detailed answers in a bit.

The market for teenage boys is totally under the radar. As we move towards greater income polarization, boy prostitution will become even more brazen than it is now. It's already pretty brazen on certain websites: Young Lad Seek$ Generous Dad for Afternoon Fun.

I don't know what to say. This is not an exploited child. This is a 17 year old who may very well be making a rational financial decision to get her hands on the money she desires. She could go $100,000 in debt going to a some top-name college and never be paid $400 for an hour or an evening's work. And it would be years, many years, in the future, before she could get a high-paid job -- if indeed she could get any high-paid job. Plenty of people can't, you know, as I with my four figure income can certainly testify.

Many jobs are dangerous. The coal miner who dies in an accident or of black lung, the pilot who dies in an accident or a hijacking, the convenience store clerk murdered on the job...we don't sit back and say no one should do those jobs because there is a risk of physical danger. And, frankly, I would tend to assume that the risk of physical harm is greater for the $11 an hour convenient store clerk....

If pimps are controlling these young women, then, by all means, pimping/pandering is a crime, and it should be aggressively prosecuted. But if the young lady is taking her one genuine chance to make real money without having to ask for it, then I'm not sure I should jump on and criticize her. Why is it less honorable for her to go out and work for the money, than it is to sit back and take money from her well-to-do parents? I agree that she sounds very materialistic, but at least she is trying to earn money rather than just sponge off her parents. I know of people in their 30s and 40s who haven't advanced so far.

I guess I just don't know what to think. These days it is socially acceptable for young women to work as strippers to pay for college. If getting paid to rub your butt on a guy's dick through his pants is OK, then what is wrong in doing something quite a bit more profitable for only a tiny bit more physical exposure? And strippers are certainly being "pimped," everyone has their hands out to be "tipped out," and what the stripper actually takes home seems to be a fraction of what was 10 years ago.

.

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/factbook.htm

And here is just one excerpt (for the USA):

"92% of women engaged in prostitution said they wanted to leave prostitution, but couldn't because they lack basic human services such as a home, job training, health care, counseling and treatment for drug or alcohol addiction. 130 people in prostitution were surveyed in San Francisco, California, as part of a study funded in part by Kaiser Permanente and the Prostitution and Research Education project of San Francisco Women's Centers, Inc. Respondents ranged in age from 12 to 61, with an average age of 28. Nearly 40% were white European/American, one-third were African American, and almost 20% were Latina. ("People in prostitution suffer from wartime trauma symptoms caused by acts of violence against them," Business Wire, 18 August 1998)"

I am amazed at how many people resist searching for the truth about the sex industry on the internet. The facts are there.

As you can imagine, this story got a lot of play on the local news last night. A representative from the Bloomington police was interviewed (Bloomington is where both the Mall of America and I are located). According to them, the Newsweek story is overblown and there is nothing like this happening at the mall. Of course, according to them there has been no problem with gangs at the mall either (that's why Camp Snoopy was called Camp Shoot Me by some). Locals know there is a lot of stuff going on at the mall that doesn't make the papers because it will be bad for business.

I can remember when the Bloomington police claimed there was no prostitution problem on the 494 strip (locals will remember when that was the hot spot). Of course, if the prostitution was good for the hotel business, maybe the cops and the city council didn't think it was a problem.

Then you can license the sex workers, both male and female. As a requirement for the license, they'd have to be free of any drugs, go through psychologicals counseling, screened for any diseases, put into a zone of a city where appropriate, and screened for minors.

The most effective tool in the fight against child pornography was the legalizing of normal pornography. That move created a class of porno producers who wanted nothing to do with kiddie porn, leaving such material to fend for itself, where it's been effectively controlled.

The only way to address the evils of prostitution and drugs is to legalize them and regulate them. Clearly keeping these things illegal has not worked at all. Every ill re prostitution that's been cited in this string has been around for ages and it's not going away.