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These neocons are nutts! Another NASA Plutonium Launch

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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:37 AM
Original message
These neocons are nutts! Another NASA Plutonium Launch
NASA is again threatening the lives of people on Earth.

On January 11, the window opens for a launch from Cape Canaveral of a rocket lofting a space probe with 24 pounds of plutonium fuel on board. Plutonium is considered the most deadly radioactive substance.

Once it separates from the rocket, the probe, on what NASA calls its New Horizons mission, would move through space powered by conventional chemical fuel.

The plutonium is in a Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator (RTG) that is to provide on-board electricity for the probe's instruments--a mere 180 watts when it gets to its destination of Pluto.

Until after the probe leaves the rocket and breaks from the Earth's gravitational pull, the plutonium endangers life on Earth.

more...

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/plutonium_launch.htm
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah, well
Turns out solar panels don't generate much power at the distance of Pluto.
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ovidsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Yup
It's a go for launch. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Applause for NASA and science.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. they are insane. thank you for the word on this, NVMojo! eom
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. ...and to think there is no drug to cure that nuttz condition ....scary.
peace!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. alas... and what with a murkin pandemic of it on our hands! very scary
really.

please keep on, NVMojo!


peace and solidarity!
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. Who ever, or what ever, finds this probe will think it's a weapon
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. The total population of Pluto is...
...zero.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Um... No they won't.
It's actually very, very easy to tell the difference between a bomb and a thermo-electric generator.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. not to be a troll but _ When did NASA become a neocon front group
doesn't sound like a good idea to me

How long has this project been in the planning?

Maybe we need to work on solar more.
Did the latest break throughs in solar get considered?
Could this plan be scrapped at this late date?
How many plutonium packages have been launched?
Many questions need answers or have they been answered?


This mission was not started yesterday.

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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Once again, for those who might've missed it: PLUTO
How long has this project been in the planning?

Many, many years. Pluto is the only planet in the solar system we haven't sent probes out to. Yet.

Maybe we need to work on solar more.
Did the latest break throughs in solar get considered?


Once again, Pluto. A planet which is so far away from the sun solar panels won't generate enough energy to do squat.

Could this plan be scrapped at this late date?

No. Pluto Express has been scrapped & reinstated more times than any other planetary science project at NASA. This time, it's going to fly.

How many plutonium packages have been launched?

Around a dozen, the majority of which are on their way out of the Solar System.

Many questions need answers or have they been answered?

They've been answered, but you've not been paying attention.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. thanks no I had not heard about the plutonium
Do you think it is safe, necessary or advisable?

I was commenting on the neocon reference primarily and using questions to bring some light to this topic.

Thanks again for the info. Anything else you can briefly add?
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Answers
Do you think it is safe, necessary or advisable?

Yes, yes and yes.

Plutonium power sources for deep-space probes predate neoconservatism by quite a few years - we've been using them for 30 years now on every mission past the asteroid belt. To date, there have been no catastrophic failures. The plutonium in the generators isn't fissable; all it does is sit there and generate heat through natural decay, which is transformed into electrical power for the vehicle systems.

These nifty little boxes are necessary because there's not as much sunlight out past Mars. Solar arrays are big, fragile and (above all) heavy. You probably could build a solar array that would work out by Pluto, but it would be the size of multiple football fields, weigh several tons more than we can launch into a Pluto intercept orbit, and wouldn't be nearly as reliable as an RTG.

If you want to explore the outer solar system, you're going to have to use nuclear power sources.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Every outer-system probe uses plutonium for thermoelectricity.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. So you know it alls are happy about paying for this?
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 11:38 PM by NVMojo
I see that you cannot think of anything else more important to waste tax dollars on at this point in time. Excellent. I am so fecking impressed.

From the original story link I received on this:

BULLETIN ITEM: Black Arts Nation Scam: Plutonium For Space Probe Power


MWM: Well, well, what DO we have here? Another den of nasty liars? Listen, I
can't do the exact physics on this, but I DO know enough to know that this story
below is a line of rank horse apples. 24 pounds of plutonium in orbit to power
the electronics in a small space probe, even if to Pluto, is like using a herd
of elephants to pull a little red ryder wagon with a six year old in it. This
cover story is obviously phoney. The plutonium is intended for something far
more snakey than we can imagine.

From: Pam W
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 01:42:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: NASA& their Plutonium fuel(Idiots in Space)



Jan 11th, mark your calendar, write COngress, all of
this, and please don't forget, this program is under
the Homeland Security now.
pkw

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/plutonium_launch.htm
Date: 12/13/2005 10:45:53 A.M. Pacific Standard Time

Indeed, accidents have already happened in the U.S.
space nuclear program. Of the 25 U.S. space missions
using plutonium fuel, three have undergone accidents,
admits the NASA EIS on New Horizons. That's a 1-in-8
record. The worst occurred in 1964 and involved, notes
the EIS, the SNAP-9A RTG with 2.1 pounds of plutonium
fuel. It was to provide electricity to a satellite
that failed to achieve orbit and dropped to Earth. The
RTG disintegrated in the fall, spreading plutonium
widely.

http://www.counterpunch.org/grossman12132005.html
December 13, 2005 Nuclear Roulette in the TroposherDe

Karl Grossman, professor of journalism at the State
University of New York/College at Old Westbury, is the
author of The Wrong Stuff: The Space Program's Nuclear
Threat To Our Planet (Common Courage Press) and wrote
and narrates the TV documentary Nukes In Space: The
Nuclearization and Weaponization of the Heavens
(EnviroVideo, www.envirovideo.com).

CONTACT NASA: NO PLUTONIUM LAUNCH

CANCEL NEW HORIZONS

FORUM 2 3

http://www.pamwiseman.com/

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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Me? I'm thrilled to death.
The fact that New Horizons is finally getting off the ground means we'll finally get some decent data on the last blank spot on the map. We'll even get data on Pluto's atmosphere before it freezes out for the local winter. (That's right, Pluto gets so cold that the atmosphere freezes solid. Bete ya didn't know that one, huh? And we won't get to see thaw for another hundred-plus years, unless we launch now.)

So yeah, this is an excellent thing to spend tax money on. If you disagree, you're welcome to go outside & play hide and go fuck yourself.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-27-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. wow, what a real gentleman. How did this become so personal for you?
I hope you don't have blood pressure problems. You have to be right. Must be type A.

Peace!
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drhilarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
16. RTG's are a safe and reliable means to power deep space missions...
Edited on Thu Dec-22-05 12:47 AM by drhilarius
Why would anyone be against furthering our knowledge of space and our solar system?:shrug:

Generally, it's the neocons who are anti-science.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. NASA is NUTS
If it was just Americans who risked being bathed in a plutonium shower when one of the NASA mad scientists' rockets blows up or their nuclear powered satellite or probe makes an unplanned reentry, I would say, no skin of my ass, but I have to confess I do resent that the rest of the world is being forced to assume the risk with no say in the matter.



Making too little of plutonium load

By KARL GROSSMAN
Special to The News-Journal

Editor's note: Grossman, professor of journalism at the State University of New York/College at Old Westbury, is author of "The Wrong Stuff: The Space Program's Nuclear Threat To Our Planet."

<snip>

The plutonium could spread far and wide -- up to 62 miles from the launch site at the Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, according to the NASA impact statement.

"Should a release of radioactive material occur in the launch area," states the impact statement, "the state of Florida, Brevard County and local governments would determine an appropriate course of action for any off-site plans -- such as sheltering in place, evacuation, exclusion of people from contaminated land areas, or no action required."

You think Hurricane Wilma was a problem.

And if this storm is radioactive, it wouldn't be a matter of people with chain saws, roofers and carpenters cleaning up the mess. The impact statement says the cost to decontaminate land on which the plutonium falls would range from "about $241 million to $1.3 billion per square mile."

As to the death toll, NASA projects that the dispersed plutonium could result in 100 people dying from cancer.

This is regarded as "totally ridiculous" by Dr. Ernest Sternglass, professor emeritus of radiological physics at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

Plutonium is considered the most lethal radioactive substance because a millionth of a gram of plutonium dust lodged in the lung can be a fatal dose. "The problem is that it takes just a tiny amount of plutonium to cause cancer," says Dr. Sternglass.

http://tinyurl.com/7vjkg





Are you concerned about the dangers of lead, dioxin, mercury, and the other thousands of toxic substances being unleashed into the environment? Well, you can stop worrying about those. Read on.

In 1997 NASA plans to launch the Cassini space probe. The fuel they have chosen for this deep space probe is plutonium 238.

Plutonium 238 is the veritable king kong of toxic substances. It is so lethal, scientists to this day remain unable to determine the minimum lethal dose.

In her book Nuclear Madness Dr. Helen Caldicott, founder of Physicians for Social Responsibility, writes about plutonium: "It is so toxic that less than one-millionth of a gram, an invisible particle, is a carcinogenic dose. One pound, if uniformly distributed, could hypothetically induce lung cancer in every person on Earth."

In October 1997 the Cassini space probe, to be launched atop of a Titan rocket, will contain 72.3 pounds of plutonium 238.

To put the reliability of the Titan rocket and NASA in perspective, just in 1993 a billion dollar military spy satellite was blown to smithereens as the Titan carrying it blew up. NASA failures are so common, the latest spectacular explosion of an Atlas Launch Vehicle on January 17th, 1997 did not even make the front page of many newspapers!

As if the danger of a failure upon launch weren't enough, NASA then plans to send the Cassini probe to Venus where it will gather momentum. NASA will then 'slingshot' it back to within 312 miles of Earth for additional momentum on its way to Saturn. In other words, it will return to within 3% of the diameter of the earth. Considering that currently 90% of the satellites in orbit right now are non-functional, this should also be reason for great concern.

http://www.gpnj.org/MiscArticles/GPNJ1997/97ar0305.html




During the 1950s and 1960s NASA spent over $10 billion to build the nuclear rocket program which was cancelled in the end because of the fear that a launch accident would contaminate major portions of Florida and beyond.

NASA's expanded focus on nuclear power in space "is not only dangerous but politically unwise," says Dr. Michio Kaku, professor of nuclear physics at the City University of New York. "The only thing that can kill the U.S. space program is a nuclear disaster. The American people will not tolerate a Chernobyl in the sky."

"NASA hasn't learned its lesson from its history involving space nuclear power," says Kaku, "and a hallmark of science is that you learn from previous mistakes. NASA doggedly pursues its fantasy of nuclear power in space."

Since the 1960s there have been eight space nuclear power accidents by the U.S. and the former Soviet Union, several of which released deadly plutonium into the Earth's atmosphere. In April, 1964 a U.S. military satellite with 2.1 pounds of plutonium-238 on-board fell back to Earth and burned up as it hit the atmosphere spreading the toxic plutonium globally as dust to be ingested by the people of the planet. In 1997 NASA launched the Cassini space probe carrying 72 pounds of plutonium that fortunately did not experience failure. If it had, hundreds of thousands of people around the world could have been contaminated.

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/nuclearspace-03b.html




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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Peddle your alarmism elsewhere.
:eyes:
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-27-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. One question
Edited on Tue Dec-27-05 01:22 PM by NickB79
How many people died from the Cassini launch? I read the same kind of alarmist "report" before that one went up. Today, thanks to that probe, we have massive amounts of knowledge about Saturn and her moons, including the very interesting moon Titan.

BTW, the 1964 incident you mention increased the amount of plutonium in the atmosphere at the time by 4%. We've put far, far more nuclear material into the environment through nuclear bomb tests than crashing all the thermoelectric probes ever launched would. And I seem to recall Cassini had multiple safeguards on it that were not available in 1964 that encapsulated the plutonium specifically to prevent dispersion in case of launch failure.

For example, this is what went on after the 1964 accident:

"The incident prompted a generator redesign geared at ensuring the devices would not spew plutonium in an atmospheric re-entry accident.

The redesigned generator was put to the test on its first mission. A NASA weather satellite had to be destroyed by Air Force safety officials when its carrier rocket went off course shortly after a 1968 launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

The mangled satellite was recovered from the Santa Barbara Channel, its nuclear generator intact. Its plutonium fuel was reclaimed and used to power another satellite launched the next year.

Another nuclear generator was aboard the Apollo 13 lunar lander, which served as a lifeboat for three astronauts when their 1970 mission was aborted on the way to the moon. The astronauts ultimately returned to Earth safely in the command module, which was seriously damaged when an oxygen tank exploded.

Their lunar lander re-entered Earth's atmosphere separately, plunging into the South Pacific Ocean. It came to rest at the bottom of the 20,000-foot-deep Tonga Trench. Extensive sampling of the remote ocean area showed no plutonium was released."

http://www.flatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051204/NEWS02/512040341/1007
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-27-05 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. Just for the record, RTG's have crashed into earth.
Edited on Tue Dec-27-05 07:52 PM by NNadir
The most famous RTG to have crashed on earth is the one on the lunar module from Apollo 13.

Far from wiping out live on earth, it has never been detected. It was designed for accidental re-entry and upon re-entry did exactly what it was designed to do: Sink without leaking.

Here is a list of RTG devices launched by the United States:

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/nuclear_space_010625-6.html

Note that a few others have reentered the atmosphere. One was designed to burn up in the atmosphere and did so. Apparently, according to some of the posters here, everyone in Florida was killed in this catastrophe.

For the record as well metric ton quantities of plutonium were deliberately injected into the atmosphere in nuclear tests, most of which occurred before 1962. The US inventory alone so released was 3.4 tons; the Soviets, the British, the French and the Chinese all added far more. Most of this has now immobilized because plutonium doesn't form many soluble compounds. While no one would argue that this was a happy thing, it is very clear that the myth of plutonium toxicity characterized by this nonsensical raving is hardly supported by these events. Much of this plutonium was released in Nevada. Not a hair on the precious head of Wayne Newton seems to have been damaged by this event. Las Vegas is much bigger than it ever was, as is the downwind state of Utah, Utah having the 4th highest life expectancy in the nation. More broadly, life on earth did not come to end because of this dubious activity.

I note that the neptunium-237 from which the plutonium-238 in RTG's is made is probably the only commonly soluble actinide known. Moreover the neptunium-237 has a half-life of over 2 million years, whereas plutonium-238 has a half-life of 87 years. Almost all of the neptunium in question was in fact made from naturally occurring uranium-235, which would have involved 11 nuclear decays were it not launched into space. Therefore one who is complaining about the alleged "risk" of the RTG is merely a person who is demonstrating that he or she is lacking even the most primitive sense of risk analysis. An undeveloped or non-existent sense of risk analysis characterizes most commentary of this type on the subject of nuclear subjects. I note that such ignorance can be fatal - fear of things radioactive rationalized the Iraq war in many (poorly educated) minds, just as it is slowing the necessary adoption of nuclear power to fight the real crisis of global climate change.

Plutonium fear is mostly urban myth and is typical anti-science fear mongering and luddite ideology. Much of the popularity of this shit about plutonium comes out of foetid little brain of the paranoid Repuke nut case, Ralph Nader, who is the originator of the lie that plutonium is the most toxic substance known. (Given the number of people who have died in Iraq, I think Ralph is a good deal more toxic than plutonium ever will be.) For the record, Nader knows exactly zero about the subject of science.

In fact, I have yet to meet a person who worried incessantly about plutonium who actually knew any chemistry and physics worth respecting. I will tell you a fact: Unless the world begins to use plutonium on a much larger scale than it already does, there is a fairly substantial probability that life on earth will largely consist small thermophilic organisms who don't launch spacecraft. This may not be a very large probability but it is certainly much much much much larger than the putative risks of plutonium, all of its isotopes, and all of its technologies, included.
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Alonzo Fyfe Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-27-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Science
I wish that the members of at least one of the two parties would have some respect for scientific accuracy, and not distort scientific claims to fit a personal agenda.

This level of plutonium is only dangerous if one inhales a sufficiently large quantity of very fine dust.

It is made out of a material designed not to produce dust, even in an explosion. It forms particles too large to be breathed in.

The small amount of small dust that is created is about as dangerous as a molecule of arsenic in a bathtub full of water. In other words . . . not.

The "science" supporting intelligent design and the claim that there is no such thing as global warming is on better peer-reviewed footing than the science suggesting that the plutonium on a NASA probe is any kind of threat.

Alonzo Fyfe
Atheist Ethicist Blog
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ToeBot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-27-05 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. Quick someone call Michio Kaku! He'll save us. n/t
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