Vietnam Vets - tell me if this is true

I remember hearing years ago that the military gave an unually high number of guys less than honorable discharges after they got back from Vietnam - more often than not for really petty stuff. If my memory is not completely shot, this was called "hanging bad paper". The purpose of this was to cut down on the number of vets eligible for benefits.

Keep in mind as you read this that I'm getting this story third hand.

The reason I'm asking is, my niece has a friend who was due to get out of the Marines yesterday. He saw combat in Iraq and came back for Iraq with a partial hearing loss. He is due education benefits and I would assume the hearing loss would make him eligible for some medical.

Monday or Tuesday his barracks - which houses several other guys back from Iraq and due for discharge had a surprise inspection. According to what I've been told, in the past, the guys in the barracks have always been warned when an inspection was coming and a box would be placed by the door where anything in the barracks that should not be there could be placed. That did not happen this time, the inspection was a complete surprise.

I'm told an illegal gun was found in one guy's footlocker (more serious) and a couple guys got nailed for having beer and have some kind of charge against them. Also, the barracks cat (contraban) was found. In this kid's (I'm sorry,I know he's a Marine and a combat vet, but he's only 23 - I can't help thinking kid) footlocker they found a video tape. On the video tape was footage of my niece's friend chasing the cat with a vaccuum cleaner. He has been charged with animal cruelty and it has been made clear to him that his benefits are at risk.

Now, my experience with cats is, unless the animal's tail was up the vaccuum cleaner (I've been assured it wasn't), a cat will find some place to hide if it's not enjoying the game. And, I've seen similar video on "America's Funniest Animals" on Animal Planet. (We won't disucss how I've tortured my sister-in-laws dog with my nephews remote controlled cars.)

So, assuming all this happened as I've been told it did, doesn't this sound like the Marines are looking for reasons to give these guys something other than honorable discharges? Did this really happen during Vietnam or am I jumping to conclusions?

It doesn't sound like he's getting any advice about what his rights are. So, I'm asking, anyone know of anywhere this soldier can call for help? (He's in California right now.)

This is a really far-fetched story. They won't give him a less than honorable discharge for something somebody else did.

I've heard the term "bad paper" for a dishonorable discharge; and "hanging paper" which refers to check kiting. AFAIK, the terms don't go together.

Either you heard the story wrong, or they're just blowing smoke because he's going home.

in your case.

The young Marine has access to military counsel and they are competent. I have several friends in the JAG field at the O-5 to O-8 level and I would trust any one of them with my life.

Advise your Marine friend to seek counsel.

tomorrow. And thanks for the soldier/marine correction - I know the difference between soldier/sailor (not much gets past me!) but I didn't know a Marine shouldn't be called a soldier.

and explained to him that, in the US military, "soldier" is not a generic term applying to all servicemembers, but rather it applies only to members of the U.S. Army. Marines are not soldiers, nor are sailors, airmen, or Coastguardsmen.

Pet peeve of mine.

Has he written his Congresscritter about something involving the Corps? Did he blow the whistle on anyone? Do they have anything to be pissed at him about? Perhaps merely "abandoning ship" (leaving during a Hoorah! war) twisted somebody's nose out of joint. (It could be that some officer made a commitment about "no losses"?)

When you piss off the PTB (Powers That Be), the military has hundreds of ways to get back at "uppity" troops. Most of them involve setups like this where they take the "rulebook" and, in effect, make the print very large. Sometimes they "generously" offer to treat it in a low key fashion (Article 15) and take away pay, suspend privileges (passes, etc.), and assign extra duty. Sometimes they push it as far as they can. He has a right to counsel and, if he asks for it, they must provide it. (They'll make it clear, however, that doing so would be "unwelcome".)

That said, this one sounds like a hoax. Something's missing. (The ring of truth? Dunno.)

Personally, I do not know of a single 'Nam vet who separated from the service under trumped-up conditions that jeapordized his (I only knew guys in the military back then) VA benefits. Many Army "US-ers," draftees, got early-outs at DEROS time (DEROS was what we lived for - returning to "the world"). Many officers, like DemoTex, spent a short tour of post-Vietnam duty somewhere and were granted early-outs by their branch.

Now, having said that, there were guys who were accused - usually with merit, as far as I could determine - of various crimes and/or infractions that might have bargained an early-out with a less-than-honorable discharge status. Some did not, were tried at Court Martial, and either acquitted (with, perhaps an honorable discharge), or indicted and sentenced, perhaps to Ft. Leavenworth's infamous stockade.

The bottom line was, after they had used and abused you in Vietnam, Republic of, they were very anxious to drop you like a hot potato (potatoe for GOP draft dodgers). That was part of the revolving door scenario.

Nor did I know of any. I do, however, remember that the threat of a dishonorable discharge was fairly frequent. It seemed to me like the 'career military' felt a bit overwhelemd by all the draftees. The promise of promomtions, medals, etc. didn't carry much weight in enticing compliant behavior. The big issues of the day they battled were drugs and contraband, IIRC. "Bad time" (having to stay in the military beyond ETS) did, as did the (not so mythical) discharge with a prejudicial 'separation code'. The practice in those days was to put codes on the DD-214 (discharge papers) that characterized the person's service and kind of discharge in ways not very 'complimentary'. (This practice was abandoned after the early 70's, AFAIK.) I have no idea how common DD-214's with such bad separation codes were, but I guess it was frequent enough to cause notoriety.

Oh, and they did seem to like washing their hands of guys rather quickly once their Vietnam tour of duty was over. I got the clear impression in '69 and later that PTSD was something the Army didn't want to keep in uniform. I think they figured the Army's medical expenses would be less if such guys were just put back on the street as quickly as possible. But these are just my impressions. I had my mind on other things at the time.

a set-up to get the guy with the firearm.

The quickest and easiest way to catch someone with contraband is to just have a 'Health and Welfare Inspection'. I would suppose that the 'inspection came from someone ratting out the guy with the gun, and to ensure that everyone was suspect as the 'rat', the whole room was searched. This would explain a couple of beers in the footlocker, or the video. Minor charges, to cover the original situation with the gun.

A few Nam vets were charged with similar stuff, but the bad press kept it quiet, and most was ovewrlooked, at least in my experience.

speak to Kerry's Senate office. He worked with Wellstone for years on veterans issues. This sounds like something his staff would be familiar with or at least can direct your concerns.

BUT I heard it about the first war with Iraq.

to request a Court Martial and refuse the Non-Judicial Punishment. A Marine JAG Officer would love this case and I'm sure it would get dismissed as the prosecution would see it for the loser it is and won't waste his time trying it.

When I was in the Corps you had the right to speak to JAG counsel for you had to elect the Court Martial or the NJP, I highly reocmend he do so because my lawyer recomended I request the Court Martial. Once I did the C.O. dropped the charges against me (disrespect to a Commissioned Officer) as they were complete bullshit as my lawyer had told me.

I agree that it sounds like they are trying to get to him to turn on his buddy on the gun charge. Tell him to stand his ground: the way they get you in the Corps is to scare the hell out of you and hope you will either do what they want (in this case, probably turn on his buddy) or take the NJP which is like going to your C.O. and -- for all intents and purposese -- pleading guilty despite the fact they don't have shit on you. They might place him on legal hold while this gets sorted out which will delay his discharge but in the end he will be better for it. Anyway, if they want to hold him as a potential witness in someone else's Court Martial (e.g., the gun owner) then they will place him on the same legal hold anyway -- even if he doesn't know a damn thing.

I never heard of anyone who thought they had botten a BCD in order to deny him benefits. That money comes from the VA, not the DoD so the Corps doesnn't really care. In truth, it was hard to get a BCD or anything other than an Honorable Discharge while I was in. I never knew anyone who received such thing who hadn't deserved it for pretty egregious behavior.
Semper Fi.

It was called a 208 or section 8 or 218 or something like that I can't quite remember but it was called less than honorable discharge that would resort to honorable after a certain time frame ,five years-ten years something like that. It was basically for guys that just wouldn't play the game anymore. They really just didn't want to be military any longer but didn't really break any laws. The army was changing from a draft to volunteer and they just didn't want anyone there that didn't want to be there. I'm sorry if I can't be more helpful but it was a very long time ago and many brain cells spent since then.

of course, why they are more concerned about a cat than an Iraqi kid with no arms or parents is beyond me.