Solution to outsourcing: pay Americans Indian wages

Don't know if anyone else caught this on ABC NEws Tonight last night, but there was a story about an visionary CEO who when faced with the prospect of outsourcing his tech jobs to India in order to "increase productivity" decided to run an ad in a newspaper asking for applicants who would work for him for the same wages he would pay Indians -- which were about half of what these jobs were worth in the pre-Chimpire era.
Link to video of story
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/video_index/video_index.html?request=/sections/wnt/videofiles/Video/040309wnt_video

Of course -- hundreds applied -- laid-off programmers who were desperate for work! When interviewed, they said stuff like -- "Hey -- it's working for half of what I used to get, but it beats flipping burgers."

Is it just me -- or does this suck the big one? Are we supposed to give this proud CEO the Medal of American Freedom for coming up with this brilliant plan? Is this another sign of economic recovery -- that the job growth in Bush's "recovering economy" -- apart from those in WalMart -- is appearing in the form of American workers being paid what their counterparts in the third world make?

Let's face it -- the Republicans broke the spirit of the American worker back in the 80s, and now the plan seems to be to create a global maquilladora.

If I discuss this with one of the flying monkeys who serve Mr Bush, I suppose they would say that I am lazy and ungrateful and am unpatriotic because I feel that workers ought to be paid what they are worth, and don't fancy grovelling for the crumbs that may fall off the table . They might tell me that I should be grateful that I don't get mowed down in a hail of bullets for speaking my mind on this matter, which would happen in a country like Iraq, Cuba, or Venezuela.

I know a guy who put in 15 years at a tech firm, which was acquired by one of these visionary CEOs, who was given the choice -- accept an entry level salary with minimal benefits, or go starve.

We're supposed to feel optimistic about the future with "solutions" like this?

Bullshit.

If there is going to be outsourcing -- how about outsourcing CEO positions? Think of all the money we could save, with CEO that only earn 10 million dollars a year instead of 200 million a year.

Is it just me -- or does this suck the big one?

It's not just you. I haven't used the vomit smilie yet, but this might qualify.

So that's already starting, eh? I figured we'd get through India and China wanting higher wages because they'll be becoming more of an industrial society with all these high tech jobs, then the outsourcing of those jobs in India and China to a country like Africa, and THEN it would get back to America when we're all living in caves and dirt huts. Guess I was a few decades off.

...an average of $10-15K per year. That not half, but more like a quarter of pre dumbya era salary of an average programmer in US.

BTW, $10-15K in India is like making $50-100K in USA.

I believe the ABC News report misrepresented this by claiming that Indian programmers earn $40,000.

no one compares the cost of living during these wage talks and it really bugs me. you can live on less money in Mexico than you can in the US (never been to India, Mexico I know for sure!)

this has the same effect.. Your "salary" will be forever negotiable.. In a way, it always was, but with this "brilliant" move, he has done the same thing that large corporations are doing..

Instead of advertising that he was a start-up and could not afford to pay high wages, he deliberately "tied" it to outsourcing.. This is just another way to make middle class people feel as if they are "overpaid", and should cut their own pay.. The real crux of the outsourcing problem is NOT start-up company costcutting.. The real problem is extortion of current employees. The constant threat of losing your jobbecause the bosses are greedy is the problem.

I suppose this CEO was rewarded handsomely by the gamblers...uh, shareholders....for his cost-saving savvy...

Let them outsource. But if they want to sell their products here, make them pay.

Very simple. It takes politicians willing to do something that the corporations won't like.

But if American companies, who are supposed to be under jurisdiction of American laws, laws that Americans fought for and even in some cases died for, they had better fucking not be able to sell their products in America if they skirt these laws by going overseas.

Will Kerry have the political will to do this? I sure hope so.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=110x3815

which will be another *cost saver* for companies. Why hire another full-time programmer(even cheaply) with benefits when you can get a part-timer to fill the position? Or better yet, just throw all the work at the programmer and expect it to be done by an impossible deadline! Argh.

There was a pro-and-con article pair, and the "con" manager solved his problems with oursourcing by hiring cheap, right out of school programmers to do the sort of work he'd outsource anyway.

Part of the problem is that is what he was getting in India, Belarus, etc. anyway.

Outsourcing software development is a hot issue for people like me, but then I'm in the project management / testing-Q/A end of it, so I'm one of the guys who probably gets to stay.

It's happening now in part because when the CIO argues against it, it just looks like he's protecting turf. And then when it's a mess, it will be his or her fault, and they'll be gone. But their replacement isn't going to make the same mistake twice.

The real concern I have is for the poor schucks in support and other phone jobs. Those jobs--the jobs that are keeping a lot of families in food and shelter with a second income of $7,8,9 an hour--are the ones that may go away and never come back.

and PMs and QA testing were the first to go; they are easily the most dispensable.

advertise in the Classifieds these wages?

They could even "spin it" to be:

"Be a patriotic American! We're paying an Indian $15K a year for programming. We could be paying an American that same $15K a year! How about you? (Don't forget, that's without any benefits!)"

See how many people respond to that in a positive manner.

something about it. We will never be able to compete, if the standard is third world wages and benefits. We will have to lower our expectations to THAT level.

Now that whitecollar jobs are leaving, it is becoming an issue, as well it should have been, all along. Just think of all the whitecollar work that can be done overseas, once they begin mass hookups of video terminals to the internet!

If you think about it, do teachers need to be physically present? Does a lawyer? An insurance agent?...Think of the skyscrapers in major cities, full of whitecollar professionals-how many really need to be there? Couldn't MOST of what they do, be done somewhere else, at a whole lot less cost?

Of course it could! If people are available to replace them, in the 3rd world...and increasingly, they are.

But are'nt we somehow intrinsically 'better' at what we do than 'those' people? No, we are not. That is what Bush is preaching with his message of 'economic optimism'. Really, it's kind of racist.

He is saying, in effect, 'things will be better, because we are better'. Bullshit. I have known too many immigrants to this country to believe that! Even on a 'level' playing field, they are as good as WE are.

What the GOP and their corporate backers are REALLY doing, is trying to lull people with a lot of 'happy talk', appealing to their baser natures, until the deed is done.

Whitecollar outsourcing can happen in a hurry...overnight in fact...because people in 3rd world nations, given the same training and education, are just as good as we are.

All it would really take, given all that, is a terminal and a hookup to the internet. Why is that so hard to believe?

that irritaes me the most. When I hear these politicians, pundits, experts, economists, or whoever, preaching that the "American worker" is somehow better than "X worker", I just want to scream.

That's the problem with nationalism. That's where it comes from, because people in that nation will believe it. Even though you weren't picked to be born in country X, with whatever strength and weakness you might have as an individual. We're all human beings.

The problem is that the people in power enjoy looking at all of us as nothing more than an expendable number. Whether you're an IT worker, or a salesman, or a cook, or a soldier, or anything else.

Alright, I need to stop before I go insane with the typing. You hit on a topic that always gets me going. I could talk about it all day.

My son is a prime example.. He works for EDS.. He used to work inside of an office for Weyerhaeuser (who he used to work for).. He traveled alot and has every electronic gizmo known to man, so they just told him to "let his people go", and to work from home.. He loves it, since going to the office was always a hassle for him because of the traffic near Concord (CA)..

He misses haviing his secretaries when he has to coordinate a national meeting or the day to day "stuff", but overall he likes it better.. The "savings" has been turned over to him, since his overall budget has not changed, but his expenses have been lowered..


so... who is going to work in all these glass highrises soon??

YIKES! Remember the chaos in the real estate sector during the recession, oops I mean administration, of George the First? When the jobs collapsed, so did all the shiny new real estate values. High rises were vacant -- banks and holding companies had one hell of a time left holding the bag, until the American tax payer came to their rescue.

Well, maybe when the caves are filled, and there is no more cardboard to build lean-to shelters in alley ways, the compassionate conservatives will let American "manufacturing workers" -- more commonly known as "the homeless" -- live in these empty structures.

for a long time.. No one wants to rent them.. It costs the city money to "protect" them..

We have spaces in our TEN YEAR OLD mall that have NEVER been occupied..

We are overbuilt, overstressed and now outsourced..:(

Apparently India is turning out first-class economic analysts and stock brokers too! Why pay good wages to white guys who want to drive a Lexus, when a really sharp financial guy in India just needs riskshaw fare, or a bicycle, or a cheap train ticket? Chapatis are so much cheaper than lattes....

Years ago, when the "Bell Shaped Curve" book came out, and it became cool and fashionable to "objectively" discuss how black people are genetically intellectually inferior to whites and Asians, and therefore the latter have a natural advantage over them and a right to be at the top -- I used to respond by saying -- How are you going to feel when a smart Asian guy takes *your* job?

A LOT of Americans have already been badly hurt by outsourcing, and many many more are going to be effected in the years to come. More and more people who used to buy into the Republican agenda are now visualizing their ass at risk.

But still, there are so many smug flying monkeys out there who think they are so genetically superior -- talent on loan from God and all that -- and that because they are *loyal* to this mindset, that *they* will never face job loss. To them I say -- just wait and see.

Lets think about that. China has 1.4 billion people, India will soon surpass China. Lets assume the 'best' we can get, is a 'level' playing field. Given an even distribution of genius-level and very bright people across all populations, how can we compete with just these two countries, alone?

All other things being equal, they have close to TEN times the bright people WE have...and they will work for much less. The difference in compensation and benefits is SO great in fact, that 'our' corporations can always be assured of having the 'cream of the crop'.

For example, jobs that are being staffed by average or above average talent over here now, can be filled by bright, very bright and genius level people OVER THERE, if not now, then sometime soon! Reason enough to do it, without even considering the cost savings!

So you see, even if the field is level...it isn't level! If you are bright and have a job, you can be replaced with 2 or 3 geniuses, OVER THERE, and the company STILL saves money! What's that do for efficiency? For costs? For profits? It's great for the companies, but what about US?!

And that is just two countries. The world is large, and there will be no end to it. The fact is, we cannot compete, ESPECIALLY in whitecollar employment. India and China can put a SMARTER worker in every job that exists today!

I think everyone had better be asking themselves, 'how good am I really'? Because I gotta feeling, we are all gonna find out real soon! Unless some restraints are put on the corporations.

I'm in sales, and when pricing a product (software for example), you can only command a higher selling price if you deliver higher perceived value to the customer.

Yesterday on Lou Dobbs a Forrester analyst said that what companies are finding is that the quality of software development is better off-shore.

If American IT workers are unable to command 2x the salary by delivering 2x the perceived value to the employer, maybe there is a more fundamental business problem.

The same thing has been happening for years in my business -- film production. American film production companies have been dumping truckloads of dollars across the border to take advantage of the cheaper labor rates, and cheaper dollar, in Canada.

We here are forced to either start working for Canadian wages or just accept the fact that there is less work here now.

The ONLY WAY we can right this wrong is for the government to charge AMERICAN companies a tax if they want to use AMERICA as a market and insist on producing their products (and therefore dumping dollars over the border and increasing the trade defecit).

It's the only way. A "free market" economy will indeed have us all working at lowest-common-demoninator prices.

Ever been to northern Mexico? Seen how those people live? You want to live that way here?

Corporations will NOT fix this problem themselves. No amount of guilt will make them fix it. Only laws ENFORCED by our federal government will.

but I don't, I live in America.

Fuck the pro-corporate capitalist arguments about "precieved value". Its just another argument for letting corporations screw the people who actually do the work.

If there is to be free movement of goods, captial and jobs, there should also be free movement of people. If they are not willing to accept the consquences of unlimited no-questions-asked immigration to and from India, then they should not be allowed to have unlimited no questions asked movemnt of jobs either.

The Indian programmer can live very handsomely on $15K a year. His American peer who is equally good cannot. Another American who might be twice as good will have great difficulty living on even twice his salary.

I'm a programmer (in the UK). I'd happily live on an Indian programmer's salary, if my one pound went as far as eighty rupees does there. Which it most certainly does not!

Real question, because I just don't know...

Does the Indian government provide healthcare?
Does it provide childcare?
Does it provide full education, through graduate school?

The wealth of the US economy has *doubled* since the 70s. However, the wages of most Americans has risen something like 3% in the same period. We're forced to work harder and harder for less and less -- and then some visionary CEO screws up, and we lose our pensions, our health insurance, etc, or we lose our job to someone working in the third world, so the CEO can get a bonus for increasing productivity.

As some have pointed out here -- sure -- if I had to pay Indian prices for my lifestyle -- no problem! -- but the truth is, although we are working harder for less and less, costs for everything are going through the roof. The next stop after being squeezed is being crushed, and then the next step is falling off the cliff -- and this is where I see the American economy now.

This is what George Soros sees as well -- corporate piracy and plutocracy may actually be threatening the capitalist system -- not to mention democracy itself, which requires a stable middle class to exist.

Back in the days of the tech boom -- there was a shortage of highly trained tech people, which led to the encouragement of immigration of talented folks from India. But now that the American economy is in the Bush recovery, corporate America has woken up to the fact that why the HELL should they let talented trained professionals from India immigrate to the US -- when its so much cheaper to pay them an Indian wage scale? So our brilliant Republicans in Congress have legislated limits on the numbers of trained professionals from entering the US. But the kind of immigration they are encouraging are brown-skinned serfs from Mexico.

I was listening to C-Span's coverage of the debate on outlawing health-related lawsuits against fast food corporations. One thing that came up is that, in the same manner that the Reagan adminstration attempted to classify ketchup as a vegetable, the chimpanzee adminstration calls jobs in the fast food industry "manufacturing jobs." So, now a burger flipper is a member of the manufacturing sector of our economy! So His CHimperial Highness and his flying monkeys can go on tv and proudly crow about the extensive rise of "productivity" (translation: we work increasing harder for far less) and the growth of jobs in the manufacturing sector! Hooray!! Dingell was very amusing in his mockery of these claims.

Thank heavens that these new "manufacturing jobs" -- more commonly known as "burger flipping" -- can't be outsourced to India because of the taboo against beef.

n/t

Heck, if the dollar was dropped back to say 15 rupees, where it was
in the late 80's, then there would be labour parity, and not a
currency-rate arbitrage structurally nurturing this offshoring.
The dollar's ongoing fall will shift the parity and the benefits of
oursourcing to india will dry up.

The real-world solution to the problem is a dollar collapse. It is
something that could sort out these republicans very fast. Without
military keynsianism, the republicans have no basis in economics.
This is that the entire purpose of government is to garrison the
planet and to reduce all opposition to dependency and subservience.

sure, there will be some pain and adjustments but think of the BILLIONS SAVED :evilgrin:

peace

Who the fuck would work for $40,000 a year? THe people who work in IT can't afford a decent lifestyle with that salary.

Ahem. As it happens, I make $40,000 a year and it's a livable wage -- if you live within your means. That means saying no to McMansions, SUVs, and other luxuries. But they are just that, luxuries and not necessities. Would I like to make more? Sure. But I don't mistake my desire to live better with living "decently." More like indecent excess compared to the rest of the world's standard of living.

Of course, I also happen to think that CEO's are beyond indecent and somewhere in the realm of abominations for the outlandish salaries and bonus packages that they make. Now THAT's a job that should be outsourced!

Ha ha -- just kidding.

I think it kind of depends on where you live. $40,000 in some parts of the country is a comfy wage, whereas it is barely liveable in some areas. The company profiled in this story is in Boston. I don't think that kind of salary would go very far there, to be honest. It's kind of embarassing being, say, 45 years old, and looking to share an apartment with a college student, etc.

If you feel you are being paid fairly for your work, great.

I think you have been prudent by not buying into the "celebrity" lifestyle that tv tries to sell us (I am the same way)-- because there sure are a lot of people who, one way or another, are WAY overstretched. How these folks are going to vote this year, I don't know. They're already so terrified that they are about to go over the cliff, they may desperately WANT to believe Bush's constant assurances that everything is going to be all right and is actually going very well now, being more comfortable living in denial than reality.

As things get tighter, and more people fall into bankruptsy (here in Allegheny Co PA, sheriff sales are at historic levels), get dragged into court by creditors, lose their homes and all the other awful things that happens to those without cash or income in our society -- no doubt the compassionate conservatives will tell us that these beleagured people "chose" to ruinously overextend themselves, the same way they "choose" to smoke, eat mercury-contaminated fish, etc.

You're right about location being key. I live in the panhandle of West Virginia, which is definitely less costly than just a few miles over the state border to Northern Virginia or Maryland.

For that matter I would work for $20,000 a year. Not gonna happen though.

f***ing STUPID

Moran.

I'll do that the day he accepts what their CEO's are making.

The bigger the corporation, the more entrenched they are. The less they have to do. This is why a big corporate CEO can spend 98% of his time playing golf and taking home $200 mil/yr to his wife, who's probably there for the money anwyay.

I would rather starve. I know a quicker way out and, besides, such corporate CEOs are traitors to America. I'd feel sick working for such unevolved inhuman creeps.

A pity. This is the world they are creating.

I seem to remember another time jerks like that told the people, Let them eat cake. Let's see, now, what happened to them...