Got to get this off my chest...

I will a little rant.

We must not take our eyes off the prize and miss the overall. We must not even remotely equate a Dem, any Dem with Bush - not even LIEberman. Bush is EVIL; Holy Joe is a conservative. There is a difference.

Bush has stolen and will continue to try to steal elections. Bush was selected, and LOST the votes in FL and nationwide. Bush lied and continues to lie every day about Iraq, 9/11, terrorism, the economy, the environment, health care, social security...aw, I'm tired. He lies about everything.

Bush has said a number of times that a dictatorship would be better, as long as he was the dictator. He has also said there should be limits to freedom.

Can you imagine a Dem, ANY Dem, doing the same? Raping the constitution, starting pre-emptive wars, starving the economy and presenting such a humiliating image for our nation throughout the world? I think not. To even consider not voting for the Dem, whether it's Joe or Gep or Kucinich or Dean or Kerry, is pure idiocy.

No matter what Holy Joe says or does to piss me off, I will support him if it means defeating Bush. Regardless of how pro-corporate Joe or Kerry might be, they are still Democrats, with a measure of concern for their country, which is more than I can say for the warmongering fascists in the WH.

And that's all I'm going to say about this..

No one, even Lieberman, is even close to Bush in my eyes.

i will refrain from joe bashing from now on ...thank you for your post

to creating an energetic base of support.
It would be an exercise in futility.

a vast improvement over the asshole in the WH.

When the Supreme Court had just Selected Bush to be resident, not one single Democrat opposed it in the house or Senate, when they had the opportunity to. Any opposition to the Selection in itself might have prevented the wars the Republicans started. Then the Democrats by majority voted to allow the Bush oil war.

And where did all that correct way of thinking get the Democratic Party? They lost in a landslide in 2002.

2004 Will be another landslide unless someone like Clark runs or someone else.

FAR better. I feel that all the Dems wimped out in FL in 2000, from allowing the Dade Cty riots (where was Clinton/Reno), and letting SCOTUS get away with stopping the recount. And except for a few, they have wimped out on everything that has happened since.

I hope to hell Holy Joe is not the candidate; but if he is, he's got my vote.

One other thing: The Dems did not LOSE in 2002. The Senate was stolen. If they had lost fairly, I'd be pissed; now I am pissed*pissed.

There is NO WAY any Democratic candidate would be the same as Bush. I am so sick of hearing that I just want to SCREAM!!!!! How would the country be different under Al Gore??? Let me count the ways.

1. We wouldn't have exported our entire tech industry.
2. We wouldn't have stopped investing in tech.
3. We wouldn't have left Afghanistan to rot.
4. We wouldn't have pissed off the entire world.
5. We would have CEO's in jail.
6. We would have stronger corporate regulations.
7. We would be investing in clean, alternative energy.
8. We'd still have cops on the streets.
9. We wouldn't be taking the food out of the mouths of children by crushing the free lunch program.
10. We wouldn't be eliminating students' choices by gutting Americorps.
11. We wouldn't be endangering communities and losing old growth with the 'healthy forest' plan.
12. We wouldn't be in debt with fool-hardy tax cuts.
13. We wouldn't have faith-based programs and faith-based government.
14. Even if we had gone to war in Iraq, we would have had truth on the situation and a true coalition.
15. We would have had a PLAN for rebuilding Iraq and we wouldn't be footing the entire bill at a billion dollars a week.

How anybody can say that Democrats and Republicans are all the same is beyond me.

There is a difference between a politician with ideas that won't work and one with policies and actions that are meant to further disadvantage workers and minorities and that are all about war and death.

I disagree now too.

You either vote for any Dem, no matter that they don't/won't stand up for their constituents, or you may not speak your truths at DU, was the order of the day.

Most everyone here will agree our country is in dire straits. What we need is real change. That change will not happen w/"more of the same" candidates. The ABB is an empty win.

You want to win by putting a D candidate in, forsaking any progress towards mending our country, is allowing the BFEE, PNACers, et al to win as well.

I will be voting w/my head and heart. My #1 candidate and my #2 candidate have what it takes to take the reins and change the course.

ABB = MOTS

Which of the current Dem candidates supports RW judges, tax cuts for rich people, efforts to ruin the environment, etc., etc.? That's what we have now. We won't get that with ANY Democrat, period.

are candidates that have voted w/the RW.

We have a Dem candidate that have voted for RW judges
We have Dem candidates that voted for the Iraq slaughter
We have Dem candidates that vote for *'s tax cut
We have a Dem candidate that did not vote against the overtime bill
We have a Dem candidate that voted for Yucca Mtn

I WANT CHANGE AND WE WILL NOT GET IT W/MOTS!

You (plural) have the right to vote for anyone you choose. Vote for MOTS, but then, don't be surprised when you get MOTS.

You fail to see the unique corruption of this maladministration.

Your idealism is commendable. But don't tell me you would vote for Bush if Holy Joe was running. I don't care about the details here.

Take the fucking macro view. Its DEMocracy vs. REPulsive fascism. Period.

that fails to see the unique corruption of this maladministration, that has been going on for decades.

Its roots are deep. We need a leader willing to dig down deep to destroy the roots. We do not need someone that will pull the tops off and think that will induce change.

You must vote Dem. You have no other choice. Realism, man.

it will take decades to fix what bush has done in a couple years.

thank you for making some sense.

Our first priority should be replacing Bush. We need a Dem in place to reverse all of his wrong-headed bullshit. Then we can push the party and the nation to the left. But not right now. This is not the time.

We must get rid of this administration first, at all costs!

It seems that you are as addicted to common sense as I am.

Any D over any r in '04!:bounce:

He is a PNAC enabler.

He is a dangerous man.

He is not a choice I would consider in my wildest dreams.