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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:35 PM
Original message
Kerry Attacks Venezuela's Chavez
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 07:45 PM by KurtNilsen
By Pascal Fletcher
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - U.S. Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has attacked Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez as a dubious democrat hostile to U.S. interests, delivering a slap in the face to the leftist leader who had portrayed Kerry as a potential friend.

The Kerry statement on his Web site made front-page news in Venezuela on Monday, nearly two weeks after Chavez had publicly praised the Democrat contender, hailing his health care plans and likening him to assassinated U.S. President John Kennedy.

<snip>


Relations between Venezuela, the world's No. 5 oil exporter, and its main petroleum client have been strained by Bush administration criticism of Chavez's self-styled "revolution," his friendship with Cuba's Communist President Fidel Castro and his resistance to the referendum challenge.

Chavez, a former paratrooper elected in 1998, has repeatedly condemned Bush's trade and foreign policies as "imperialist" and accused the U.S. government of trying to topple him, a charge denied by Washington.

<snip>


Perez told El Universal newspaper Bush was to blame for the tense ties "because of his hostile statements."
But Kerry's declaration firmly quashed Chavez's apparent hopes of a more friendly U.S. policy if Kerry won in November.

"It separates his image from that of Chavez, and it's not just a distancing, it's a clear break," said Venezuelan political analyst and author Alberto Garrido.

<snip>


http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4626832
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here's a link to the actual Kerry text on Chavez
For those that want to read it for themselves.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0319d.html

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baby_bear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. The last paragraph is a slap at Bush
People should read the whole thing.

My impression upon reading it was that it was meant to placate Cubans in Florida. Still, the referendum shouldn't go forward unless the signatures are legitimate. I don't know how we will ever know that.

At any rate, people should read the piece of Kerry's web site and not just the posted article.

s_m

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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. If you post from Kerry's website, are you allowed to post the
whole thing?
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
393. depends. is it copyrighted?
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Maybe someone needs to get Kerry up to speed on,...
,...the back-door funding via US right-winger corporatists. At least, I hope that is why he is somewhat amiss. His actual press release, however, does not seem nearly as damning to Chavez as the article posted. To the contrary, he appears to be taking more of a jab at the * administration.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. He serves on the Senate Foriegn Relations Committee
He probably knows more about the situation in Venezuala than anyone on this discussion board. Just because he doesn't support every far-left foreign leader doens't mean that the is uninformed.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. So, are you saying he supports US funding of coups? *eom*
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Are coups always a bad thing?
Mr. Chavez spent time in prison for attempting a coup.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
64. Chavez was on the side of justice in that coup.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #64
199. OMG!
I'm agreeing with AP! I need oxygen!
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #199
208. I only express this sentiment in every 4th post. Where have you been?
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
65. Are US corporatist backed coups in a foreign nation a bad thing?
Does that kind of coup serve the interests of the people in that nation? Does that kind of coup serve "democracy"?

What are your thoughts? Do you believe such "coups" are good things?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #65
74. They certainly are good if they take out a thug like Castro
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #74
86. This thread is about Chavez,...I believe,...*eom*
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. And Chavez is a thug who deserves what is coming
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. I don't know what you are talking about,...
,...could you extrapolate? Moreover, you didn't answer my question: do you believe US corporatist backed coups serve the people of or "democracy" in foreign countries?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #93
101. If they take out a thug who comits human rights abuses, yes
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. What a crock of shit. Your tax dollars got finance more thugs than you'll
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 09:31 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
ever know. Where was the righteous USA when all the other Venezuelan thugs were running the country into the ground over the years? Where were you? I heard your boy Clinton got along very well with Suharto, The Saudis, the Chinese and every other asshole that plays ball with the USA.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #104
124. I don't think that anyone in this country would want the Saudis overthrown
because the alternative would probably be worse.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #124
129. Oh, so supporting murderous despotic thugs is OK.
What did Mr Clinton do to push them to reform their fucked up government. He had 8 yrs. to do at least something. What about the other people I mentioned is that your final answer? I'll tell you something you may not know either. The so called alternative in Venezuela is much worse. Do you like racist white collar pseudo fascist criminals? I sure don't.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #129
139. I don't like them either but I don't like left-wing murdering thugs either
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. Care to back that with some facts?
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 10:21 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Again, answer my question. Where were you and the US when Carlos Andres Perez was responsible for hundreads if not thousands of deaths and the destruction of the economy? I never heard a peep from anyone here.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #141
152. I was in elementary, middle, and high school and a little bit of college
I was not politically active for most of that time.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #152
158. My point is that there is more to the story than what you
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 10:19 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
might have been told. I'm sure you don't agree but that's life. For years now I've followed the situation in Latin America and I am from there as well. The media is controlled by a few elites and distorts many things. Before you say it. No, it may not control people's minds literally but it sure affects how we see things.

Like the Venezuelan t shirt says "I'm sorry. I became a coupster because of the media". (roughly translated)
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #158
252. For some reason Jimmy Carter seems to have been influenced by the media
as he has criticized Chavez.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #252
254. Nice try. Maybe his boy G Cisneros has some influence with him.
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=1671

Would this be the same Carter that was a good friend of the Shah's. When it comes to oil both parties are on the same page. When was the last time that Carter hung out in the ghetto slums of Venezuela and asked their opinion?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #254
261. His relationship with the Shah had more to do with the Cold War than oil
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #261
262. Oh, I'm so sure. Did he tell you that personally?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:03 AM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
What about his relationship with Venezuela's Rupert Murdoch? Is that because of the war against terra'?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #262
266. I thought that Rupert Murdoch was from Australia
:shrug:
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #266
268. OK, let me explain this again. Gustavo Cisneros is Venezuela's Rupert
Murdoch. Get it? It was a metaphor. Funny how you always manage to evade the issue with cute little comments and DLC/repub talking points. :eyes:
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #268
271. So are you saying that Jimmy Carter has gone over to the dark side
because of who he socializes with?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #271
272. I'm saying even the great Jimmy Carter makes mistakes.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:39 AM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Or can be influenced by the wrong people. If someone comes to the US to study the situation. Should they hang out with republicans and get their version of things? I don't get people here. They say they don't like bush. But they have no problem with the US installing and/or supporting little bushes in other countries.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #272
274. Carter sent a team of advisors to Venezuela to assess the situation
He didn't just base his position on the word of one man who he socializes with.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #274
276. Who hosted these advisors?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:58 AM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Again you say he has criticized the Chavez administration. Many people have crticized everyone even Clinton. Many of these people did not agree with his policies. But at the same time they never supported the right wing coup attempt against him. Some people even accused him of using extra legal means to stop impeachment. I thought he used whatever means a politician, under assault by a well financed smear machine would use. Again why do we want to get rid of bush but the Venezuelans deserve someone like him. That's all the elite controlled media and the "opposition" has to offer.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #276
281. How do you know that he will be replaced by "someone like Bush?"
Even if the recall were to succeed, it would only mean that another election would be held. What makes you think that the voters of Venezuela would elect "someone like Bush?"
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #281
282. Because that's what Carmona was after the coup.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 10:09 AM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Who do you think the "opposition" leadership is comprised of people like Paul Wellstone. That's all they have offered so far. But of course you have done extensive research on Venezuela, I imagine.

If the recall happens it happens. That's fine by me. But these people are as dirty as the worst republican can be. It is the same all over Latin America.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #282
283. Why are you assuming that the recall will pass in the first place?
If Chavez is so popular, he should win by a landslide. Even if he has popular policies but is personally unpopular, someone of a similar ideology would likely be elected to replace him. Unless, of course, his policies are not popular.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #283
285. I'm not assuming a damn thing. I'm saying if. Anything's possible.
Your boy Clinton was extremely popular and we ended up keeping him by a thin margin in the senate. Dirty tricks by powerful influential people are just that. What is so hard to understand?

But hey believe whatever you want that's your business.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #285
287. The vote to remove Clinton wasn't even close
One article of impeachment fell 17 votes short. The other one was 22 votes short.

Either way, if it had been put to a public vote, Clinton would have won. Voters don't remove popular leaders, only unpopular ones.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #287
289. Really?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 10:50 AM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Is that why the half the electorate wanted to get rid of the "unpopular" Clinton policies and voted for an illiterate moron? The fact that there was even impeachment was close enough for me. That helped to tarnish democrats as "corrupt inmoral sex fiends". It seems to have worked. But what am I talking about? You don't even think there's any media bias.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #289
292. The 2000 election was more about personality than policy
And Gore just came off as a guy who was trying too hard.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #292
294. WTF? Too hard. Yeah, I guess people shouldn't try hard to become
elected leaders. They should just run on daddy's name and wait for it to fall on their lap. Personality, are you insane? The "liberal" media portrayed bush as an everyday guy. Which he wasn't. The man never worked a day in his life. Including his pseudo ceremonial post as governor. Gore was portrayed as a serial lying nerd who wanted to dismantle the armed forces. Not to mention a SCOTUS in which at least three members had conflicts of interest. The fact that bush even came close has a lot to say about the state of affairs in this country. Give me a fucking break. If this is what liberalism has come to in this country. We're in deep shit.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #294
304. He was trying to hard, as in being a know-it-all
Chris Matthews put is best when he described Gore as reminding him of the kid in shcool who would remind the teacher if she forgot to assign homework.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #304
310. Bullshit. He was better prepared than anyone in recent memory to
occupy that office. What, was he supposed to act like a moron. Would that have satisfied you and the others who do not appreciate intellect? You're just repeating RW talking points. I really don't give a shit about Chris Matthews. He's the same guy who almost had an orgasm when he watched little w prancing around on the aircraft carrier. And told us Kerry, a real veteran could not get away with it. Media whores online put it best when they called Tweety a whore. George Carlin also said best when he called bush an imbecile and the embodiment of everything that has gone wrong with our country.

Talk all you want about how much Gore sucked. But it's clear to me that you know nothing about the history of Latin America. You don't know anything about the current situation in Venezuela. You don't know the players involved. And you're also in complete denial about US involvement and complicity with pseudo fascist regimes in the region. I'll leave it at that.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #310
312. Electing a President is not all who has the highest IQ
and who has the best stances on the issues. Look at Ronals Reagan. He was simply more likable than his opponents.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #312
317. Best prepared doesn't mean highest IQ.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 01:01 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Ronald Reagan was a piece of shit who tried his best to destroy FDRs and LBJs progress. Would you higher an electrician who has no idea what he's doing because having a beer with him might be more fun? Again that is also a fallacy bush is no more likable than Gore. He's an arrogant and disrespectful moron. If you want to buy into RW spin be my guest.As usual you pick one little thing and try to salvage your argument with it.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #312
381. Self-deleted
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:19 PM by Tinoire
Just not worth it no matter how mild that was.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #281
284. To answer your question further.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 10:18 AM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Who has the US supported in latin America for the past century? It's an easy question. They have more in common with bush than they do with any liberal. If they get a new president that the US approves of. Do you think it will be any different than before?

If they vote and get rid of him fine. But let the USA stay the fuck out of it. Do you think people would approve of the Chinese financing the Democrats? The "opposition" is rich. Screw 'em let them use their own money.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #139
409. Why take out one but not the other?
For the sake of argument i'll assume that Chavez is a tug.
Then we agree that both Chavez and the house of Saud are tugs. You said you don't like either.

There's no difference there, except that Saud accepted a trade agreement with the US mostly on US terms, and Venezuela didn't.

So why is it that the US should take down Chavez but not Saud?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #124
201. You could, and should
make the same argument for Iraq. Stop apologizing for our disastrous, self-serving foreign cloak and dagger and murderous policies.
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #124
205. The Neo Cons are desperate
to overthrow the Sauds - are you kidding? Freddie, I'm disappointed.

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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. What's Your Opinion Of Chavez' Land Reform Program?
Is that "thuggish"? Or is it thuggish to ignore the fact that 6% of the population in Venezuela own 80% of the land, which is the greatest ownership inequity anywhere in the hemisphere? Calling Chavez a thug is so easy, isn't it. That way, issues and facts can be cast aside.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #105
128. His attempts to supress the opposition and recall camapign is the problem
Let the people vote. If 'land reform' is so popular there, eh will win by a landslide. It would appear that he is not as popular as some on this discussion board think that he is, since he seems to be afraid of the referundum.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #128
187. I Suggest You Listen To The Radio Show 'Democracy Now'
Several weeks ago, Amy Goodman had the spokesperson on for the National Endowment For Democracy. They are a non-profit organization funded by the U.S. Congress with the goal of spreading democracy in the hemisphere. The spokesperson admitted that 'yes', the NED ONLY FUNDS ANTI-CHAVEZ POLITICAL GROUPS IN VENEZUELA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Need there be more proof of the outright thuggery of the United States? How can you possibly argue that there is anything like a fair electoral process when we have admitted verification that the U.S. is funding the opposition in Venezuela? As for Chavez, he was duly elected to office. Most of his support came from the campesinos and workers. The corporate media in Venezuela is trying to generate opposition, with the admitted assistance of the United States. Recall the duly elected Chavez? When the entire process has the stinking taint of U.S. interference? Why not petition to recall Mr. Bush instead? I don't think the United States should be giving lessons in democracy to Venezuela. We have lost the high ground on the democracy issue and are no longer the teacher on democracy. It's as though we are arguing in court for equity while having unclean hands ourselves.

http://www.pipeline.com/~rougeforum/nedoverthrowchavez.html
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #187
256. The NED works to strengthen democratic institutions
One party systems only result in corruption and abuse of power. If the people of Venezuela like Chavez so much, the referendum will lose by a wide margin.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #256
264. The NED was also used to finance the Contras.
Who themselves were dealing drugs and killing women and children. This was around the time you say that you were not politically active. I would do some research on your precious NED before saying things like that. It is a tool to finance oligarchs and real thugs overseas.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #264
267. The NED is supported event by progressive members of Congress
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:47 AM by Freddie Stubbs
Why else would Kucinich attend an even honoring the organization?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #267
270. Yeah, that's too damned bad. It doesn't change the fact that it has been
misused over and over again. For all I care Jesus and Gandhi can endorse it. It has been used as a tool to finance criminals and killers.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #270
275. So why in the world do progressive members of Congress vote to fund it
over and over again? Perhaps they don't know as much about the NED as you do.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #275
279. You're probably right about that.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #275
280. have a look at the information in this thread
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #275
386. So you approve of the NED only funding Chavez opposition groups?
I won't pretend to know everything about the National Endowment for Democracy or say that EVERYTHING they do is wrong. The world is not black and white, except in Bush's mind ("In Texas, we don't do nuance" he once told CNN's Candy Crowley). But I heard their chief spokesman admit to Amy Goodman on her radio show that 'yes', THEY ONLY FUND THE OPPOSITION GROUPS IN VENEZUELA, not any parties affiliated with Mr. Chavez. He admitted to her that they have not spent one single cent on any political movement friendly to Chavez. THAT particular activity of the NED is undemocratic to say the least. It taints the entire political process in Venezuela and, dare I say, is indefensible. I won't say that all things that the NED does are wrong, but I have heard of several shady activities being associated with that organization.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #101
111. Good grief! We could spend all night doing a comparative analyis,...
,...of thugs who commit (or what usually amounts to being complicit in) human rights abuses and we would end up wondering how come our own country is so f*cked up!!! The US has one of the highest rates of violent crimes in the world, one of the highest rates of domestic violence, one of the highest rates of inadequate medical care, a very high rate of poverty, one of the only countries that places teenagers on death row, and numerous varied and sundry problems which, if taken together, PROVES that you and I have absolutely no standing to indulge in the persecution of other nations like Venezuala and Haiti and Iraq and Syria and Taiwan, etc. etc. etc. The arrogance and reactive judgment of our people is appalling to me. Who the h*ll do we think we are anyway? Our country ain't all that great. We have PUH-LENTY of our own problems. How come we deny and avoid fully addressing our issues? Geez,...I am so tired of this,...upmanship crap. This country is way too weighted towards punishment than reward, judgment than understanding, reaction than thoughtfulness.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #111
134. Our country is far better than those places
How many people move from the US to those places? Out country isn't perfect, but it is the best that there is.
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dax Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #101
122. every coup has had the same result-install a dictator, destroy the econ
Every coup this country has participated in has resulted in a dictatorship that exploits the economy for US and international capital interests-ever occur to you that poverty has only INCREASED in countries that follow IMF rules??? Why do the dictatorships have to slaughter more people to stay in power ever hear of the "disappeared in Argentina, CHile, El Salvador-US always supports butchers if they do the right thing-hand over the goods and provide cheap labor. GET A CLUE
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #122
136. The leftist dictators are just as bad as the right-wing ones
Stalin actually killed more people than Hitler.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. WTF? How is he a dictator?
Don't even put Stalin and Hitler in the same sentence as this man. Worry about your own homegrown dictator right here.
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leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #140
170. He's not
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 10:36 PM by leftistagitator
I don't know where these people are coming from. He's not cancelled one election, and won solid majorities in the last elections. I've heard before that the opposition in Venezuala hires people to scout these forums and spread disinformation, sometimes I wonder.
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dax Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #136
235. America and Britain have killed more people than Stalin and Hitler COMBINE
500,000 Iraqi children, 200,000 Haitians, 2 million Vietnamese and counting-there are over 9 million landmines still there,the list is endless and you KNOW this only myopia could keep you from seeing it. It really doesn't free people to kill their family and destroy their land and way of life. If they are INVITING HELP as Aristide did when his country was invaded, well help could reasonably be provided but not a CHOICE made by others to kill people for their own good. If someone came over to your neighborhood and blew up your house with you and your family in it and left uranium all over your land so you could never grow anything on it again, and the people nearby had deformed babies for the next century, if you had any relatives left they would NOT FORGIVE OR FORGET. And just the facts-CUBA has the best infant mortality rate, education, health care of all so called "undevelopped countries" My father is a doctor who has assited in their medical school programs, my British husband says his friends live to vacation there and sure it ain't paradise but if the US would quit trying to destroy it, they could probably teach us a thing or two. and Castro never seems to feel the need to invade anybody or waste all the public's money on bombs. we of course will see our grandchildren starved out of home ownership to pay for what Bush has already spent. don't be naive-I am sick of this refusal of some to put bits of unconnected data into context. Most of the deaths attributed to Stalin were NAZIS, people who died fighting for OUR FREEDOM against Hitler, and people who died of famine (by the way more DIED OF FAMINE before Stalin ever came to power). Read "MIssion to Moscow- I can't remember his name he was the US ambassador who witnessed the purge trials. He stated "under the rules of American jurisprudence, the people who were tried would have been found guilty of treason" America not only had a fifth column-it still DOES. ASK an old taxi driver in RUssia-they still love Stalin-life was better than it is now for working people anyway. I am a democrat but we can do better than what we have now.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #235
244. Mission to Moscow?
By ambassador Joseph Davies? It was ghost-written off his notes and was considered the most blatant piece of totalitarian propaganda ever to be produced in America (until the movie surpassed it). Davies advised on the script, whitewashed the purge trials and denied outright the Soviet aggression against Finland. Both book and movie were instigated by the OWI (American war propaganda office). The only purpose of both was to soften up American minds for the entry of the US into the war against Hitler.
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dax Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #244
372. Think about the propaganda you get now-with all the cross check you can do
Now think back to a time when you WERE put in jail for saying the wrong line-anything the govt did not like. Can you possibly conceive that alot of what you were taught about political theory might and history might have been propaganda? Can it not occur to you that America and probably other capitalist countries as well-sent operatives into RUssia who successfully perverted any possibility for real success as a demonstration to the world that economy could be organized in other than utter enslavement to a handful of people who control virtually everything including the standard of living for all? It would be no surprise to me if Stalin worked for the CIA to eliminate the real leaders of the revolution-who really knows?? Socialism has never been given the chance that capitalism has amply had, which it has failed MISERABLY. Isn't that the biggest criticism of what capitalists define as socialism-that you can't "get rich" like you can under capitalism? and what are the odds of you doing well under capitalism and getting rich if you don't have phenominal luck, a rich relative or a brilliant discovered talent-ask someone living without clean water or adequate food if capitalism has been good to them. then get back to me. Ask yourself why poverty is increasing in the world which should ozone and out energy itself in the next 20-30 years to oblivion for all-it won't MATTER how much money you have when you can't breathe the air or drink the water. Noone will CARE how many brands of toothpaste you can choose from. It really is time to take a stand-get an education and FIGHT FASCISM which is what is really going on out there.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #235
370. No way! Stalin and Hitler killed way more!!!
Stalin - Ukraine starvation in the 1920's - 20 Million
WWII 30 Million

Hitler Holocast 8 million
WWII 15 million


Thats alot more than US or Britain ever did. Im not saying those deaths aren't awful and wrong of course, just slightly less numerous.

We aren't as bad as Stalin or Hitler, but it does seem like the White House is using their playbook.

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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #370
398. We can do the math together
and History is not a static subject
(snip)
6. Chronological list of US murder toll:

The murder toll has been achieved by either direct violence (e.g. the firebombing and nuking of Japan or the firebombing of Dresden) or indirect/proxy “low intensity conflict” (e.g. Rwanda in the 90s or Nicaragua in the 80s). (I have not here accounted for the deaths attributable to SAP.) Some extremely conservative estimates—

Native Americans (1776-2002): 4M
West Africans (1776-1865): 4M
Philippines (1898-1904): 600K
Germany (1945): 200K
Japan (1945): 900K
China (1945-60): 200K
Greece (1947-49): 100K
Korea (1951-53): 2M
Guatemala (1954-2002): 300K
Vietnam (1960-75): 2M
Laos (1965-73): 500K
Cambodia (1969-75): 1M
Indonesia (1965): 500K
Colombia (1966-2002): 500K
Oman (1970): 10K
Bangladesh (1971): 2M
Uganda (1971-1979): 200K
Chile (1973-1990): 20K
East Timor (1975): 200K
Angola (1975-2002): 1.5M
Argentina (1976-1979): 30K
Afghanistan (1978-2002): 1M
El Salvador (1980-95): 100K
Nicaragua (1980-90): 100K
Mozambique (1981-1988): 1M
Turkey (1984-2002): 50K
Rwanda (1990-1996): 1M
Iraq (1991-2002): 1M
Somalia (1991-1994): 300K
Yugoslavia (1991-2002): 300K
Liberia (1992-2002): 150K
Burundi (1993-1999): 200K
Sudan (1998): 100K
Congo (1998-2002): 3M

We should also take note that the United States bears more than superficial responsibility for the Nazi Holocaust: e.g., the turning away of Jewish, Romani, and other refugees; funding the concentration camp system; underwriting the Third Reich’s military; delay in opening a western front; policies of appeasement before the war; siding with the fascists during the Spanish Civil War; turning down Stalin’s offer to attack Germany jointly in 1938; providing theoretical inspiration for lebensraum, final solutions, anti-communism, anti-Semitism, etc; rebuilding Germany after the war with the fascist infrastructure still intact; saving war criminals; general ideological support; and so forth.
(snip)
Original article is at http://la.indymedia.org/news/2002/11/22725.php
basic stats for US imperialism
by cecil • Sunday November 24, 2002 Sunt 04:18 PM

a reference guide for activists.
Basic Statistics for United States Imperialism
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #398
413. Those "indirect" ones are a bit of a stretch...
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 06:29 PM by Chicago Democrat
I like your politics, but I have a problem with that list of 'US murders'. Murder is a strong word, and the universe is quite specific when the charge is 'murder'.

I would omit some of the "Indirect" ones amd factor down for the US's proportionate role.

For example Rwanda, I'm recalling this is the Tutsi/Hutu genocidal conflict you are talking about. Clinton's ignoring of it was resprehensible but saying the US murdered each Tutsi is just plain wrong and distorts the truth. The US's historic record is bleak enough without resorting to stretching the truth, dear friend. At best the US could have saved 100,000 or so by the time even the best US president could muster political will to change the situation. We are not gods, but foolish mortals in an imperfect system.

I accept the negative karma from my governments murders in this life and all past lives, and will work to change this and redress the past wherever possible.

All those numbers don't exceed Hitler and Stalin's direct murders which was what I was answering. Stalin & Hitler (100 Millionish) vs your numbers which I reckon at 20 million or so. So the US is 1/5th as barbaric as Hitler and Stalin, and that includes all US people from 1492 to the present versus only 2 guys and their nations. So the US isnt so bad when you look at it that way.
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #136
277. Stalin was a phony bastard
that perverted communism and gave leftist ideas a bad name.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #277
414. That's what I think too, Stalin-Bad / Socialism-Good
What's wrong with America? The Democratic Party needs to embrace socialist ideas.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #88
184. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #184
186. Please don't bring up Windboy.
It almost brings a tear to my eye.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #186
246. Yeah, Ol' Windbag was something, all right.
A joke!

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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #246
369. What happened to WindandSea?
I was getting used to him constantly disagreeing. DId he get thrown off?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #369
382. YES! A beautiful thing.
Quite a few of us knew he was pushing propaganda. I guess the mods agreed, or else he attacked someone personally too many times.

His occasional use of rightwing sources to back up his lies probably didn't help, either. I'm just surprised the asshole got so many posts before being banned.

When I saw his tombstone, it felt great. We don't need disinformation agents here.

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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #382
388. God Bless our Moderators!
Let their judgement be like Solomon!

Please forgive me for my transgressions!

May Allah richly bless DU!
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #184
260. And proud to be a new Democrat
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #260
307. and, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations
another right-wing think tank

so many funded by the same right-wing wealth, including NDOL/DLC

all part of "The Apparat"
http://www.mediatransparency.org

"It is wonderful to be here at the Council, a forum for thinking about our place in the world and our country. And I'm really pleased to be able to be here as a member and to be able to share some thoughts with all of you today. And I'm grateful to see great friends here, like Ambassador Robin Duke and Congressman Greg Meeks. Thank you for taking time to join us today."

http://makeashorterlink.com/?W154251D7

Speaker: John Kerry, Member, U.S. Senate (D-MA); Democratic Candidate for President
Presider: Peter G. Peterson, Chair, The Blackstone Group

Campaign 2004 at the Council on Foreign Relations
New York, New York
Wednesday, December 3, 2003

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #307
308. No mention of CFR in the mediatransparency.org article
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #74
253. That would be the thug Castro
and the dictatorship Cuba whose medical aid saves thousands of lives every year throughout the third world? Very thuggish...

V
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davhill Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
291. Yes coups are always a bad thing
As much as I detest Bush, I would fight against any coup to take power from him by force.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #291
311. What about the coup that Chavez attempted?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #311
390. Funny how no one wants to answer that question
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #311
391. What about the coup Hugo Chavez attempted?
It was one of TWO against the later impeached a$$#### Carlos Andres Perez, a personal friend of George H. W. Bush. How can you have missed the repeated references to this on multiple Venezuela threads?

It's been mentioned already in this thread. You can find lots to read on it in any search, of course.

Please DO TAKE THE TIME TO SCAN THIS TIMELINE, FOR CHRISSAKES, SO WE DON'T KEEP REPEATING THE SAME INFORMATION;

1988 Dec 4, In Venezuela, former President Carlos Andres Perez was declared the winner of the country's presidential election.
(AP, 12/4/98)

1989 Carlos Andres Peres took office and instituted bold reform plans. Increases in fuel costs and government reforms in Venezuela sparked extensive rioting and looting with hundreds of people killed.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1)(WSJ, 5/22/96, p.A-16)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)


1989 An IMF loan was made to Venezuela.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1990 Dec 7, As President Bush arrived in Venezuela on the last stop of his South American tour, his chief spokesman, Marlin Fitzwater, warned Iraq that there was "no lessening in the threat of war," despite Iraq’s promise to release its hostages.
(AP, 12/7/00)

1991 US Customs intercepted a large cocaine shipment and began investigations. It was found to be part of a CIA operation out of Venezuela.
(WSJ, 11/22/96, p.A12)

1992 Feb 4, In Caracas, Venezuela, there was a coup attempt but Lt. Col. Chavez failed to capture the presidential Palace and was forced to surrender. He served 2 years in prison.
(WSJ, 6/12/03, p.A10)


1992 Nov 27, In Venezuela some 15,000 rebel forces under Lt. Col. Hugo Chavez tried but failed to overthrow President Carlos Andres Perez for the second time in 10 months. The coup left dozens dead and Chavez was jailed for 2 years and then pardoned by Pres. Rafael Caldera. Chavez was elected president Dec 6, 1998.
(AP, 11/27/97)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)(SFC, 12/7/98, p.A9)


1992 Irene Saez, the Miss Universe of 1981, was elected mayor of Chacao. By 1997 she was being considered for national leadership.
(SFC, 8/19/97, p.A8)

1993 Aug 31, Venezuela president Carlos Perez fled.
(MC, 8/31/01)

1993 Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was impeached. He was later charged with misusing $17 million security fund for election debts and a lavish inauguration.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)

1993 Rafael Caldera was elected president and promised not to increase fuel costs.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-14)

1994 Jan, Banco Latino failed and sparked a run on the currency that put the nation into its worst economic crises. Chairman Gomez Lopez left the country just before a warrant for his arrest on charges of fraud was issued. Ricardo Cisneros was on the board and fled after being charged with playing a role in the bank’s failure.
(WSJ, 7/31/96, p.A1)(WSJ, 9/18/96, p.A14)

1994 Pres. Caldera pardoned Hugo Chavez for the 1992 coup attempt, and asked him to leave the military.
(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1996 May 30, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was convicted on corruption charges. He was sentenced to prison for 28-months and fined for misappropriation of $17 million from a secret security spending fund.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)(SFC, 5/28/97, p.A12)


1998 Apr, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez (76) and Cecilia Matos, his longtime mistress and personal secretary, were charged with depositing funds in US banks that far exceeded their earnings as public officials.
(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)


(Timeline continues to the end of 2003)
http://timelines.ws/countries/VENEZUELA.HTML
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
94. I guess he also knew more about Iraq's weapons, huh.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #41
132. You mean in the same way that...
...because he was on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, he probably knew a lot more about all those WMD in Iraq than anyone on this discussion board when he voted for the IWR?

:crazy:

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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
238. The US and Kerry should just stay out of Venezuela's business!
Between this crap and Kerry's announcement a few days ago how he was going to be even more of a war president than Bush and his wanting to put more troops into Iraq -- and the fact that he has done zilch to earn the respect or vote of the progressive wing of the democratic party -- it's going to be easy to pull the lever for someone else or hell, maybe I'll just write in Kucinich!
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. This guy is starting to piss me off
and I don't mean Chavez.

Is it Kerry's goal to smash it into progressive's faces that we are insignificant to the party and the nation, and yet we must vote for him?

We must defeat Bush. I will vote for Satan over Bush. I will certainly vote for the Democratic Nominee. Hell, I work to elect the Democratic nominee.

However, as long as we keep hearing crap like this, I think progressives are going to have to seriously re-consider whether the Democratic Party is potentially part of the solution or ultimately part of the problem.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. There s only one word which almost fully expresses my opinion about this:
Bonesman
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
48. My new Dem bumpersticker
Vote Dem: Our Bonesman is better than their Bonesman
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #48
89. Hee hee hee,...that's cute!!! *eom*
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
39. check
cantwealljustgetalong`s thread about malaysia-i`d certainly want this guy on my side
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. You nailed it. Kerry knows he has progressives where he wants us.
He knows that most of us will vote for ANYTHING or ANYONE over Bush, and so he's taking advantage of the situation by moving as far to the right as possible in an attempt to get swing votes.

Where are all the people who say we shouldn't criticize Kerry's words and actions? This is a prime example of a case where he needs to hear vocal criticism. If he's the most liberal Senator we've got, as is claimed by many, we're in real trouble.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
55. I believe, and of course I could be wrong, that he is playing the game,...
,...called "politics". The rules of that game are not going to change until our country and the people in it, change. Those changes take time and effort and commitment.
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. No, you're right.
He's playing politics. But that doesn't excuse it or make it right. Time, effort, committment, yes, I agree with you again. But we're stuck in this particular election cycle, and Kerry is using that to his advantage.

I think he could've stuck to his progressive roots and still won the election without resorting to this.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #61
77. Maybe he thinks it improves his fundraising chances with big money? nt
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
83. I don't know whether sticking to his progressive roots,...
,...would be advantageous or not. The divisive climate created by this administration and its cohorts is pretty sticky stuff to combat. However, I do share your disappointment with respect to his failure to really shine a progressive vision which is good for everyone. On the other hand,...perhaps that day will come sooner than either of us think. At least, we can hope for such a day, huh.

:bounce:
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
72. Kerry doesn't really have a record of standing up against neoliberalism
He called Haiti relatively well, I guess. But criticizing Chavez comes from the same place that voting for all those crappy trade bills comes from: an insufficiently critical view of neoliberalism.

And this is too bad, because, to me, unlike the death penalty, or other liberal issues which election year politicking leaves by the wayside, this is actually the central issue for progressives today.

To be in favor of neoliberalism, to me, translates into guaranteed HUGE profits for corporations who don't really work for those profits, or deliver any value to the world, and those profits will continue to buy governments which do the bidding for fascism.

Being for neoliberalims guarantees the fascist ologarchy.
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
213. AP, baby - you've come
a long way or, maybe I misunderstood you all along - either way - luv 'ya
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #213
217. Were you reading what I wrote when I was explaining the difference b/w
Edwards and Kerry on trade? It comes down to this same issue.

I'm totally willing to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt on this issue. Maybe Chavez should have kept his mouth shut. Maybe Kerry is going to say one thing, get elected, and do another, like JFK did more or less with Cuba and Vietnam.

But I'll tell you: I'd be much happier with Edwards as President because he seems to understand how neoliberalism is bad for America. I don't think Kerry has ever said or done anything in his life which puts neoliberalism into context with which I agree.

And to repeat for emphasis, everything I've said in this thread is consistent with other things I've said at DU countless times before. What did you think I believed in?
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #217
225. You've been doing
a great job on Edwards, Venezuela and neoliberalism for a few months now, IMO. Before that - well - I had some doubts. Just wanted to say I'm glad I've continued to read your posts.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #225
257. "before that"?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 08:24 AM by AP
What are you talking about? You just listed everythign I've been talking about since I started here?

Do you disagree with me on race and taxes, because that would be the full list of my issues.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #225
263. A quick review of the archives: DEAN. You disagreed with me on Dean.
I think I had Dean's number.

Incidentally, Dean thinks Chavez has got to go too, right?
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cuscatlan04 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #72
258. Chavez makes a business deal with Foreign oil corporations
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 08:27 AM by cuscatlan04
Take a look at this page:

http://www.ameriven.com/

http://www.ameriven.com/english/index_en.htm

This is the web-page of the strategic association between PDVSA, ConocoPhillips & Texaco.
This business deal was recently announced by Chavez as a sign of cooperation between the US and Venezuela.

What do you think of that?

An also take a look at this article:

http://www.petroleumworld.com/suF030203.htm
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #258
359. What do you think?
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cuscatlan04 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #359
394. I think
that while Chavez is talking about being against neoliberalism, he gives huge oil contracts to foreign oil companies.

Another sector that he is also giving to transnational companies is gold. Take a look at "Las Cristinas" project in Venezuela:

http://www.bpd-naturalresources.org/html/focus_las.html

Also he fired about 20,000 employees from PDVSA.

Chavez's human rights record is despicable, to say the least. Here's a link:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=123&threadID=42374&tstart=0

In my opinion, he's just another Marxist thug trying to stay in power no matter the consequences.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #394
397. Here's some more info on Aleksander Boyd.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #397
406. Amazing information floated up from your second link
in the reply from Wilpert to Boyd! This is really interesting:

Carlos Andres Perez and to a lesser extent Rafael Caldera had atrocious human rights records, if we include that in the concept of “power hoarding.” Print media were regularly censored during their presidencies. It was not unusual for people to open a newspaper and see numerous blank spots where articles had been removed by government censors. An almost empty front cover of the main newspaper El Nacional, the cover of El Universal with a text saying CENSORED, and the closing of Radio Rumbos by the political police DISIP, are examples of the tactics used by Carlos Andres Perez as recent as ten years ago. The jailing for a month of an astrologer who predicted the death of then president Caldera, also comes to mind.

During periods of unrest hardly a month would pass in which a demonstrator would not be killed by the police. In a press conference with the Venezuelan human rights group Provea, its director, Carlos Correa confirmed that human rights abuses during the Carlos Andres Perez period were quite severe. Another major issue was election fraud, which was apparently quite common and well known during these two president’s terms in office. Despite what some members of the opposition claim, these have not been the tactics of the Chavez presidency.


--Gregory Wilpert

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/print.php?artno=1081

Cool. This brings something we hadn't had time to discover, yet.

Hey, thanks a lot, SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN!
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #406
407. I got this from the vheadline editor, after inquiring about Mr Boyd.
The people he has listed were arrested for various criminal acts associated with riots. As such, clearly, they cannot be described as "political prisoners" although it is a convenient description for the likes of Boyd to hysterically fling around the internet with complete and utter disregard for the norms of proper governance. It is my understanding that the persons named in the list are at the disposition of investigating authorities and the courts which are autonomous under the judicial branch of government and as such separated from the executive. Mr. Boyd has himself said that he lost his job as a bellboy at a hotel in London last November and it is my understanding that he remains unemployed since then. While it must be admitted that there are many failures in governance in Venezuela, this is due largely to the fact that such a great amount of effort is being put into disrupting proper governance by person(s) outside and inside the administration who are not as committed to democracy and constitutionally as perhaps they should. I refrain from any further qualification on Mr. Boyd other than to observe that he has several times acted in an irrational manner levelling accusations without serious substantiation with the sole purpose to offend and injure.

regards
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #407
410. Highly interesting information there.
With his attitude, he'd make a horrid bellperson, after all. No wonder he was fired. Geez!

However, he makes a typical right-wing psychopath.

Thanks.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #394
402. Actually we need a link to any kind of proof you've got
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 02:29 PM by JudiLyn
to back up your charge Hugo Chavez is a "Marxist thug."

Looking at the list of backers at opendemocracy.net:

Diego Hidalgo
Doctor of Journalism

Diego Hidalgo has been a powerful force in both Spanish media and efforts to stimulate economic growth in developing countries.
A graduate of the University of Madrid Law School and the Harvard Business School, Hidalgo served at the World Bank from 1968 through the mid-1970s.

In 1976, he became founder and executive chairman of the Fund for Research and Investment for the Development of Africa. He subsequently became nonexecutive chairman of the board, and president in 2000, as well as chair of FRIDA’s subsidiary, DF International, which specializes in restructuring public enterprises and the financial sector, and works with international organizations in developing countries. (snip)

http://www.whatsnew.neu.edu/0106/hidalgo18.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


David Elstein

Tories analyse BBC's future

By Andrew Woodcock, Political Correspondent, PA News 22.05.2003

The Conservatives have launched a review of the role, structure and funding of the BBC today, under the chairmanship of former Channel 5 chief executive David Elstein.

The Broadcasting Advisory Group is looking at alternative ways of funding the BBC, including advertising for BBC1 and subscription fees for digital channels, and was expected to provide a basis for the Tories' manifesto proposals in the next General Election.

Its launch comes less than a fortnight after the Tories made a formal complaint over the BBC's coverage of the local elections, claiming that the corporation downplayed the party's successes - while giving undue prominence to the resignation of frontbencher Crispin Blunt.
(snip)

http://pamediapoint.press.net/services/media_news/livenews/beebtory220503.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


John Jackson
Mr Jackson had previously sought the Conservative Parliamentary nomination in NE Leeds on the resignation of Sir Keith Joseph, but was defeated by Timothy Kirkhope, who became the NE Leeds MP.
http://www.illo.demon.co.uk/ldc.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Institute for Public Policy Research
The Institute for Public Policy Research is a think tank in the United Kingdom, with close links to the ruling Labour Party. It was founded in 1988 - people involved in its development included Clive Hollock, Lord Eatwell, Tessa Blackstone and James Cornford.

Jeremy Hardie - Treasurer
http://www.fact-index.com/i/in/institute_for_public_policy_research.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


John Cleese? The Minister of Silly Walks?????


http://guardian.curtin.edu.au/cga/art/tv.html

You simply must draw the line somewhere!

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #394
421. Chavez SHOULD be generating business for VZ!!! What makes someone a
fascist isn't that they DO business. It's that they channel ALL THE PROFITS from businessi into the hands of the people who aren't working to create the wealth, and who then use that money to control government.

There's some good reading about where the profits from the VZ oil business are going in VZ at this site:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/

Enjoy!

(Incidentally, what Chavez is doing is probably capitalism in its purest form -- and not marxism, not fascism. It's creating wealth for a middle class, through fair, well-regulated markets, and by not allowing power to concentrate in the hands of a few through control of a private monopoly.)
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
75. Kucinich. n/t
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #75
149. no. he had his chance
and the country decided that they wanted a safe, status quo electable "Democrat." The country wants to have its cake and it it too. We'll get niether -- "let them eat war."
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keithyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
96. Me too. Nader is looking better and better.
Skull and Bones had to come out sooner or later. Please let's have a brokered convention....I want DEAN!!!!
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #96
415. Its too late, lets just take what we can get and hope
Kerry moves to the left after he gets elected. That's my hunch; that's my hope and prayer.

You know a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
147. It wouldn't surprise me...
Is it Kerry's goal to smash it into progressive's faces that we are insignificant to the party and the nation, and yet we must vote for him?

Now that the Democratic nomination is sewed up, the fact is that we are insignificant to the party and the nation, and yet we must vote for him (or be blamed for a Bush victory, in case you haven't been paying attention here for the past month).

Now, Kerry figures that he has everyone on the left who he's going to get, so his next task (actually, just about the only task leading Democrats carry out these days :-( ) is to "capture the swing vote" by "moving to the right." Over the past week, Kerry's failure to stand with Dean in his criticism of Iraq, his criticism of the new Spanish PM for wanting to pull out his troops, and now his slap at Chavez indicates to me that this move in currently "Job #1" with the Kerry camp, and is likely to continue as such for most of the campaign. Unless, of course, Nader continues to make a dent in the polls. However, even in that case, the response will likely come not so much in the form of a move to the left, but in rhetoric attempting to scare potential Nader voters to give up their idealism/stubbornness/whatever and vote for "the lesser of two evils" or else get the blame for a Bush victory.

As progressives, we're caught between a rock and a hard place...one more reason for my contention that what we need to be doing is working for change in a systemic sense, in the whole political arena from county supervisor to senate races, rather than just adopting the "put all your eggs in one basket" approach of concentrating on replacing Bush with Kerry.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
160. amen, brotha, amen!
kerry needs to KNOW what side his bread is buttered on! :grr:
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
239. Amen!
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eablair3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
259. Fuck Kerry
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 08:30 AM by eablair3
what a piece of shit. This kind of crap really pisses me off. As much as I can't stand Bush and don't want him back, I don't think I can support a guy like Kerry who makes statements like this.

I think Greens are the answer. It may take a while to build up the party to be a force, but it looks like the only and best way to me. One guy like Nader, even if he were to win, isn't go to make a dent in this. To make a difference, it's going to take a sustained and growing grass roots movement, imo, based on principles of social justice and humanitarian values where people understand and "evangelize" to others how biased and tainted the mass media and the established parties are toward big business. Big business and big money own these political parties, and they own Kerry as well.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #259
314. I agree. Where do we start?
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
313. Part of the problem
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Can we please concentrate on slapping Bush
and slapping down all the lies he has told, especially within the past three days? Can we please try to let it be known that Bush is a reasonous evil man who lies and has ruined our country? Brought us to a war with lies and killed thousands of people. Has Kerry's team forgotten that slaughter? Is there anyone around the Kerry camp who is awake yet? Yoo Hoo We have all sorts of opportunities here to get one up on Bush and Cheney and what the hell do we get--Chavez!!! WTF--I can't believe it. This could have waited for much later--the important thing at hand is batting down all the lies told by Bush. Geez--we have Kerry being attacked at a doggam news conference by some pub hack who quotes him calling a SS agent a somobitch and what do we read? Chavez and Kerry's dislike for him

Come on, I am losing my patience.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. But, the attack on Chavez is all about beating Bush..
It's that electibility thing.
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. In what way?
Walk out onto the street right now. Ask the first 10 people you meet to name the President of Venezuela. Go ahead. Good luck.

This is not about electability. It's about signaling to the corporate elites that he's willing to see democracy subverted and people dead rather than risk their profits.

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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. You might be right.
I thought along the lines that he (Kerry) tries to portray himself as a tough American macho leader, not as a weak willed "liberal". That he is pandering to the hawkish sentiments among many voters.

That said, I think your theory might be better.

Anyway you put it, it doesnt smell too good.
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freeforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
37. Markus...
I just read Kerry's statement and this sentence struck me "...President Chavez’s policies have been detrimental to our interests and those of his neighbors." (Emphasis mine.)

I agree with your statement that he is letting the corporate elites know that they can still count on him to uphold their interests.

I don't think he made a very smart move. Now, probably more than ever, the world is watching this campaign and the election, and it won't pay to piss off the electorate by giving them mixed messages about working for the people, but supporting the corporate elites - whose interests are definitely opposed to the general population's.

Last year, I didn't think he had a snowball's chance in hell to get the nomination, and wouldn't have been my first choice, then when he rebutted Bush strongly, I thought he might have some guts, but now, I'm beginning to wonder.

It seems as if this election is a choice between two unsuitable candidates - just pick one.

I'd still support him rather than Bush, but I think you guys are up the creek.

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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
95. Hey Markus, would ya happen to have a room to rent for a
tired american political refugee? :)
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #95
103. Fargo's pretty far north
but it wouldn't formally qualify you as an expatriate.

But it's a short jaunt up to Canada.
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #103
207.  =o)
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:48 PM
Original message
"It seems as if this election is a choice between two unsuitable
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 09:49 PM by tlcandie
candidates - just pick one."

Well, hasn't that almost always been the dems choices in the past...the lesser of two evils. GREAT! How the hell did we end back up at square one when we had soooooooooooooooo damned many GREAT choices?!

This makes me literally sick!!!
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. Yessiree!
Both sides are in it knee deep.

It's gonna take a revolution...
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
151. the corporate elites already know
that Kerry is no threat to their interests. He wouldn't be where he is (and where he will be) if he were.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
200. Bingo
as other posters have said; what choice do we have? Nader? We (hopefully) won't make the same mistake twice, but I think stories like this one only serve to hemorrhage more of our base to the Greens.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
76. But it's pretty much in line with Kerry's politics. His trade votes were
all neoliberal. He's very good to corporations, and this is another example.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. How about being silent about death squads and School of the Americas?
This is one line in the sand that I will not cross for Mr. Electable.

What's next for Kerry? Keep Otto Reich, John Bolton, and John Negroponte to help him pursue the SAME Fascist foreign policy in Latin America that Bush is pursuing?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
62. Didnt Kerry try to PROSECUTE Otto Reich?
Nice hypothectical though- you are somthing else- smearing Kerry for things he has not even done yet!

GO BUSH/Media/IndianaGreen!!!! Keep those Kerry smears a'comming!!!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. Kerry is the one that is repeating the Bush smear about Chavez
saying that Chavez is involved with narco-terrorism. What next for that piece of work from Massachusetts? Repeat the John Bolton lie that there are Al-Qaeda in Venezuela?

Kerry has no credibility when it comes to Venezuela, Haiti, Cuba, and the rest of Latin America!

It appears that Kerry will follow the same policy in Latin America that Bush has.

What's next for Kerry? Kiss former death squad leader, and current Colombian President Alvaro Urribe in the cheeks?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
78. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
181. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #181
302. You should take back this untruthful smear IG...
I proved that this was a smear job- I even provided a link from a progressive website.

Oh, well, if you cant back up your smears, you can always hit the alert button.

You smeared Kerry with suggestions that are not true and it was NOT a personal attack to point this out.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh gawd....
I have been trying mightily to steel myself to vote for Kerry no matter what, because the bush* maladminstration is SOOOOOOO freakin' EVIL. Not only that, I have been doing all I can to exhort my fellow anti-war progressives to suck it up and vote for Kerry also.

But jeeeeeeeeze, way to go to make it harder... At this rate, I'm wondering if there'll be anything left of my resolve by November...

sw

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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
144. Feeling the same here scarletwoman....
It means voting against all that you hold dear...your ethics and at this rate it will be a VERY HARD uphill battle to check Kerry off on my ballot :/
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #144
156. *sigh* It's a Hobson's choice...
I just keep telling myself that my highest priority HAS to be getting rid of bushco.

IF Kerry wins the election -- and I'm not the least bit optimistic about, to tell the truth -- I fully intend to be out on the streets ALOT! Getting rid of bushco is ONLY the beginning of our fight!

sw
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kerry sounds like an asshole
that noise he is making stinks
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
69. I hear 'ya -
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. Somebody tell Kerry to stop drinking the bushista Kool-Aid.
You'd think he would have learned after believing the BFEE's WMD lies.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. Right After He Insulted Zapatero.
It looks like Kerry is digging himself a deeper hole trying to amend his statement about foreign leaders supporting him by going out of his way to not look to cozy with them...or something.

This only shows he's very defensive about the GOP attacking last week.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
45. There are some foreign leaders he would not want to be associated with
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 08:23 PM by Freddie Stubbs
Imagine Bush running a commerican listing the foreigh leaders that support Kerry. Then they could tick off the issue that these guys support, and then ask why are these people really supporting Kerry.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
416. He playing it right for the NASCAR croud... Kerry is a political fish
He's a liberal; look at his record. This is politics. Give him credit for what he's doing! Trying to be competative is a good thing.

Remember: He endorsed Aristide.

So one out of three aint bad. He can alway change his mind after he gets elected. Talk is just talk, look at the big picture. Its frustraiting being a progressive whose party is out. The sucessful candidate has to stich together a broad coalition to win and what is says isn't always what he means.
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AtTheEndOfTheDay Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. DLC tendencies
I'm being reminded of Lieberman. Bummer.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
47. Three cheers for the DLC!
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
121. Can we cheer for the Republicans at the same time?
It comes to the same thing, really....
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #121
222. goobergunch!
I won't ask where you've been. Good to see you.

Yep, cheering for the DLC is the same thing as cheering for the pukes.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #222
290. So is cheering Kerry the same as cheering Bush?
Kerry is a New Democrat.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #290
301. Most of the people on this thread do not, and will not support DEMS...
...in 2004.

They are more concerned with thier perception that Chavez is obviously the best thing since sliced bread.

At this rate Bush will win anyway, so I guess we willnever get to see the difference- perhaps that is goal- to "teach us a lesson" for not being radical enough.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #301
305. I'm not so sure
The far left makes up a small, but vocal minority in the Democratic Party. Just look at the results of the primary season.

But I think that when it comes down to it in November most of them will realize that although he is not as far left as them, Kerry is far superior to Bush.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #290
383. The answer to your question is contained in the response. n/t
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #121
299. Bill Clinton, same as Republicans? Thats a lie. n/t
n/t
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Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. His actual statement does not sound as bad as this article implies.
I don't agree with the whole statement but wouldn't expect anything less from a presidential candidate.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
97. I think these two paragraphs are awful:
Throughout his time in office, President Chavez has repeatedly undermined democratic institutions by using extra-legal means, including politically motivated incarcerations, to consolidate power.  In fact, his close relationship with Fidel Castro has raised serious questions about his commitment to leading a truly democratic government.

Moreover, President Chavez’s policies have been detrimental to our interests and those of his neighbors.  He has compromised efforts to eradicate drug cultivation by allowing Venezuela to become a haven for narco-terrorists, and sowed instability in the region by supporting anti-government insurgents in Colombia.


You know, I coudl undwerstand having to run as an anticommunist during a red scare (and then governming as a liberal).

But there's nothing to gain by doing this. Most Americans will believe whatever NPR tells them about Venezuela and don't care either way about Chavez.

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Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #97
107. Actually there was something to be gained
Kerry doesn't want Chavez to be used as one of the leaders that wants him to win. He put out a statement to clarify where he stands. Most Americans will believe that Chavez is a horrible leader and all that stuff if someone tells them. I can see why he doesn't want to be seen as a supporter. It's just one less thing they can use against him.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #107
112. Did Chavez say anything about Kerry? Has he ever said anything flattering
about any US President.

The guy might be faced with a referendum, and Kerry just told Venezuelans that Kerry isn't all that interested in working with Chavez.

Forget the US election. Kerry might have just fucked up CHAVEZ'S election.
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Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. The article says Chavez did
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. "Kerry might have just fucked up CHAVEZ'S election." That's the idea.
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klook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #107
306. Correct
I agree with this. This was a positioning statement. You thought being "French-looking" was bad...how about supporting a pro-Castro leftist leader in our own hemisphere??!

I think Kerry's statements about Chavez are deplorable, morally, but certainly politically logical.

By the way, for those who haven't seen it, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised is a great documentary about the April 2002 coup attempt against Chavez.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #306
318. This is what I think, too.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. Stunned.
With everything that is going on, he is going to move to the center with a Chavez smear? I am a consistent keep-your-eyes-on-the-prize kind of poster but this makes little sense. On multiple levels.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
70. O-I-L. He is reassuring business interests that his peace-loving roots..
won't interfere with taking care of bidness.

Not just O-I-L but we-won't-tolerate-land-reform-or-populist-leftists; and he's reassuring banking and capitalists everywhere that globalization won't be stopped.

That's how I read it, anyway.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #70
228. Oh, I agree that is the purpose...
but how deep is it?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. "Communists Hope Kerry Wins"
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 07:58 PM by Dr Fate
Either way, Kerry would be attacked by his critics- if he had not said anything, his critics would say "Communists hope Kerry wins"...

If he publically expresses doubts about this guy (I must admit, I know little about Chavez), then his critics still attack him...

Kerry gets hit from all sides- making it easier for Bush & the media to finish "the job"...
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Here I am in "lockstep" with the media again
And you know I'm being faceitious. John Kerry really should've stood up for democracy, but it looks to me as though he's done the exact opposite.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Kerry critics
If you think there is an argument that you are lockstep with the media, well, I think that is interesting...

It helps Kerry's defeat when he can be hit from many different angles, and on issues that the GOP & media would not attack him on...

...the common bond is that each group attacks Kerry-at this point, I have no interest in dissecting their motives-

WHY the GOP, media and some on the left want to destroy Kerry is no longer a concern-the concern is to STOP them...

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Kerry stands in opposition to the Venezuelans
the vast majority of which are poor and people of color.

Our multi-millionare Kerry is more comfortable rubbing shoulders with the elites of Caracas, who are equally proud of their wealth and their European blood.

Kerry es un pendejo y un mentiroso muy grande. Un Americano feo!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. No, just Chavez...But it almost makes him sound racist- great smear!!!
HI FIVE COMRADE!!!

but seriously-

I dont read anything in Kerry's statment that suggests he is "against" Venezuelans or people of one race or another-

What are we all supposed to worship Chavez now?

...It's just one more Kerry smear of yours...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. You know little about Latin America
and this shows. The vast wealth is kept in the hands of descendants of the Europeans, while everyone else toils to eke out a living. The elites reaped all the benefits of the oil industry, while the poor became poorer.

Kerry stands alongside the elites and against the poor!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. I had me some fancy book learning...
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 08:37 PM by Dr Fate
I know a good bit about Latin America & American influence...

I still say its a stretch and a smear to suggest Kerry's remarks were guided by racism- but hey it's a great smear and thats your goal.

I admit I have not followed Chavez- I'm sure there are good things & bad things about him...
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
154. Message deleted by author
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 10:18 PM by JDWalley
No text anymore...
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #43
221. got that right, Indiana
asshole and ugly American, but what is "un mentrioso muy grande?"
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #221
227. un mentiroso muy grande = a big liar
I need to refresh my Spanish just in case!

:)
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #227
303. Any PROOF that Kerry is lying about anything?
What did he lie about?
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. Best of luck...
...in stopping me from advocating for truth and democracy.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. I need it- a 3 to 1 fight will be tough.
Fighting attacks from the GOP, media and "Liberals" will require luck.

You have two other groups (GOP & media) helping you tear down Democrats, so you dont need a wish of good luck from me.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. He could have just kept his mouth shut.
He could have said, "I need to study this situation further before I make a statement."

But no, he's assuring the corporate masters of the world that he'll take just as good care of them as bush* does. :mad:

sw
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. What are some specific reasons why Kerry should support the guy?
I admit I dont know much about him.

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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
316. Why every good liberal should support Chavez
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
322. You keep saying that. I suggest you go and do some research.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 01:16 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
There, problem solved.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Chavez is not a Communist, or even a socialist!
But is nice to hear the rightwing smear being repeated here!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. That's why there were quotes around the statement.
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 08:14 PM by Dr Fate
It's not what I say, it's what the media would say when THEY attack Kerry...

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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
332. You're right about that one. eom
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 01:26 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
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Mr.Green93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. is this a Sister Souljah move?
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. And THAT was an asshole move too by Clinton
JERKS! DLC corporate jerks. Proving that Princeton spook Nader right.

I do NOT believe Gore would say this shit.

BOY am I pissed.
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
60. I always maintained that Kerry was too centrist and
"connected" to corporate america. I intended to vote for Kerry after he shot ahead because Bush is so vile in and of himself. However, I am not happy with Kerry and will continue to hold his feet to the fire if he wins. :nuke:

I think we should be looking ahead to who we will "replace" Kerry with after this one term. Fairly, if Kerry does good work while in office,I'll praise him. Otherwise, I'm looking way ahead already.

We definately need more than three viable parties in this country.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
364. Clinton was right to repudiate Sister Souljah
Racists come in all sizes, shapes, and colors.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. That's what I was thinking.....
The nomination's sown up....the race to the center can begin in earnest.

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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
21. Now that I can breathe again (I feel like I was punched in the stomach)
though I imagine Kerry's true colors will show through as I have always expected them to (not good) - I will say the following:

1. This totally sucks.

2. Instead of attacking the Bush administration for supporting the subversion of democracy in Venezuela (which in turn pushed Chavez into the position of having to circle his wagons against US imperialismo - all the things Kerry rails about instead of attacking Bush)

3. I will say it again: Kerry is being an asshole corporofascist Bonesman with theses types of statements and is losing my support FAST.

4. I would still vote for Kerry today. But I am not sure I will feel this way tomorrow.

5. KERRY: Go ahead! BURN your progressive base. Asshole.
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Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. In his actual statement
he does mention the Bush administration supporting the coup attempt in Venezuela and Haiti.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Facts are not helpful when the constant goal is to smear Kerry...
Arent you afraid you are enabling Democrats?

What about that creepy Skeleton Devil Worship Club?

Stop ruining the "mysterious" effect of all the Area 51 Club stuff with these facts!!!
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Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. It's hard to have a discussion with people
who want to believe the worst and look for things to back up how they feel.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Why does Kerry have to like this guy at all?
I dont know much about Chavez- perhaps Kerry has some reasons to disagree with him.

Are there any particular strategic reasons why Kerry should "accept" this "endorsement"?
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
319. Because Chavez is democratically elected and his opposition
are undemocratic friends of George Bush. Doesn't Kerry want friends? Chavez would be Kerry's best supporter if Kerry would give a little back. We also need to support Chavez to fight poverty in Latin America. Chavez is their FDR.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
22. Kerry Attacks America's Bush
Kerry Statement on America

March 19, 2004




With the future of the democratic process at a critical juncture in America, we should work to bring all possible international pressure to bear on President Bush to allow the impeachment to proceed. The Administration should demonstrate its true commitment to democracy in America by showing determined leadership now, while a peaceful resolution can still be achieved.

Throughout his time in office, President Bush has repeatedly undermined democratic institutions by using extra-legal means, including politically motivated incarcerations, to consolidate power. In fact, his close relationship with rightwing, corporatist factions has raised serious questions about his commitment to leading a truly democratic government.

Moreover, President Bush's policies have been detrimental to our interests and those of his neighbors. He has compromised efforts to eradicate drug cultivation by allowing Afghanistan to become a haven for narco-terrorists, and sowed instability in the region by supporting anti-government insurgents in Haiti.

Impeachment would give the people of America the opportunity to express their views on his presidency through constitutionally legitimate means. The international community cannot allow President Bush to subvert this process, as he has attempted to do thus far. He must be pressured to comply with the agreements he made when he took the oath of office, respect the exercise of free expression, and release political prisoners.

Too often in the past, this Administration has sent mixed signals by supporting undemocratic processes in our own hemisphere -- including in Venezuela, where they acquiesced to a failed coup attempt against President Chavez. Having just allowed the democratically elected leader to be cast aside in Haiti, they should make a strong statement now by leading the effort to preserve the fragile democracy in America.

:eyes:

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gold_bug Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
38. Re the part on narco-terrorists,
He has compromised efforts to eradicate drug cultivation by allowing Venezuela to become a haven for narco-terrorists, and sowed instability in the region by supporting anti-government insurgents in Colombia.

Any evidence/facts to back this bold assertion up? I was under the impression Chavez (early in his administration) moved troops to the Venezuela/Colombia border to prevent FARC from retreating into Venezuela (as they had sometimes been doing, into frontier areas on the border). According to what I'd read, Chavez fortified the border to ensure the Colombian insurgents don't cross. I've never encountered any credible evidence that Chavez has had any type of connections to FARC/ELN.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
84. I know. That's just a lie, as far as I can tell.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
40. Good. Chavez is no liberal democrat(small letters for both words).
He is a left-wing thug. He should be more like Lula and less like Castro.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
58. Yep.. its terrible what's going on in Cuba
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 08:37 PM by Mika
Sovereignty, 100% literacy, FULL access to good health care for all, lowest AIDS rate in the west, lowest infant mortality rate in the west, rent control, organic food supply, gun crime free, peace, etc, etc.. Just terrible.

PS, forgot to mention that Cuba sends more humanitarian doctors to serve the poorest of the poor, worldwide, than the USA. Haiti and Venezuela are two examples.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #58
90. Yeah, Cuba is great!!
Unless you're gay:

While the 1979 penal code formally decriminalised homosexuality, the legal status of lesbian and gay people in Cuba today is still ambiguous. Homosexual behaviour causing a "public scandal" can be punished by up to 12 months jail and this law is sometimes used to arrest effeminate gay men and transvestites. Discreet open-air cruising in public squares and parks is tolerated, although often kept under police surveillance. Most gay bars are semi-legal private house parties and are subject to periodic police raids. Homosexuals are still deemed unfit to join the ruling Communist Party (being gay is contrary to communist ethics) and this can have an adverse impact of a person’s professional career when senior appointments depend on party membership. Lesbian and gay newspapers and organisations are not permitted. The Cuban Association of Gays and Lesbians, formed in 1994, was suppressed in 1997 and its members arrested.

http://www.petertatchell.net/international/cuba2.htm
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #90
118. A movie?
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 09:42 PM by Mika
A movie script by a Cuban "exile" as evidence? Doesn't cut it.

Yep, in the past Cuban penal code did discriminate against gays agregiously, just as in America. Not so in the current Cuba, although there are neanderthals everywhere who abuse gays, just as there are almost everywhere. I've been to Cuba many times, before and after 2000, and there are living and activist gay communities all over who organize and petition unfettered (unless they are involved with US funding, as the USA is the declared enemy of the Cuban state with the intentions of overthrowing the Cuban government).




Gays Wed In Cuba:
The Second Revolution
http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba/010621gay_cuba.html
JUNE 21, 2001. A few hours before floats, rainbow flags, and a sea of humanity filled Sao Paulo's central Avenida Paulista last Sunday for Latin America's biggest ever Pride Parade, Agence France Presse reported that, in Cuba, two gay male couples also made history by publicly holding the first gay wedding there.




If you want to learn a little about Cuba's AIDS policy past and present, and the the Gay community in Cuba here is a longish old DU thread (filled with the usual cast of anti Castro characters and demonizations, but some informative links by others who have actually been to Cuba) that might be of help.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=114&mesg_id=114
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #118
185. You're either mistaken or deliberately misrepresenting my source.
I won't speculate as to which, but my link was not a movie script. It was a piece by Peter Tatchell, one of the leading gay rights activists in Britain, the man who attempted a citizen's arrest of Robert Mugabe, another homophobe who has quite a following here.

If you would like to take on Tatchell's specific assertions, please feel free. Were gay and lesbian journalists not thrown in jail and their organization suppressed? Are gays now allowed to join the Party? Are gay and lesbian newspapers allowed now?

I do not deny Castro's positive achievements, and I think he is defnitely better than Batista, but that does not mean that I am willing to overlook his mistreatment of my own people simply because he is on the Left.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #90
229. Yeah, the USA is great unless you're a Black Male!!
While the 1979 penal code formally decriminalised homosexuality, the legal status of lesbian and gay people in Cuba today is still ambiguous. Homosexual behaviour causing a "public scandal" can be punished by up to 12 months jail and this law is sometimes used to arrest effeminate gay men and transvestites. Discreet open-air cruising in public squares and parks is tolerated, although often kept under police surveillance. Most gay bars are semi-legal private house parties and are subject to periodic police raids. Homosexuals are still deemed unfit to join the ruling Communist Party (being gay is contrary to communist ethics) and this can have an adverse impact of a person’s professional career when senior appointments depend on party membership. Lesbian and gay newspapers and organisations are not permitted. The Cuban Association of Gays and Lesbians, formed in 1994, was suppressed in 1997 and its members arrested.

Three words: Driving While Black (...esp. in a 'nice' neighborhood).

Tell me this kind of thing isn't used as a pretext to find SOME kind of violation and push young black men into a cycle of crime. Worse, Americans watch this on TV like it is sport.

And FYI, I am a gay, white male. Racism is FAR worse a problem both domestically and internationally; and it is much worse here than in Cuba.


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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #229
249. I agree that racism is a serious problem in America,
though I'm not sure exactly how that excuses official homophobia in another country.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #58
126. Those are all nice achievements, but it doesn't change the fact that
Castro is a fairly nasty guy with no regard for civil liberties. Democracy is more important than inflated Cuban government statistics. That said, I think trade should be normalized with Cuba, but I still don't think Castro is some kind of god like you think he is.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #126
174. Link?
Where did I mention Castro?

Please post the links to the posts where I call Castro a god? I have never said that, and I don't think that.

In addition to supporting the end to the embargo and sanctions on Cuba and Americans, my consistant position has been that focusing on Castro is ignoring the Cuban people. It is the design of the US gov/media and the Miamicuban exiles.

Yes, democracy is more important than government stats, except that that stats are not the Cuban government's. They are the stats of the UN, World B, Doctors w/o Borders, UNESCO etc. (ex: http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm )

After years of US government brainwashing combined with American information apathy mixed with being banned by the US government from freely traveling to Cuba, understandably, most Americans have no idea about the real Cuba now - Cuba has an elected government via a multiparty parliamentary system that the Cuban people overwhelmingly support.

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html
* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}



Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm
This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.


--

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books



--

Better yet, we should cast off the shackles that our government places on our freedoms that prevent us Americans from freely seeing Cuba for ourselves so we can better understand the place.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #174
360. Thanks a lot for posting those links, Mika.
You are correct in pointing out that our right-wing propagandists can say ALMOST ANYTHING about Cuba and it may seem to have to stand for a while, until someone either locates links bearing actual information on a subject, or someone happens to show up who has actually BEEN THERE and KNOWS BETTER.

Once we finally squash that filthy, offensive travel ban on Americans,(and it could be this year, as Democratic Senator Max Baucus told Pedro Alvarez, Cuba's top agricultural import official) we won't be having too many of these discussions, as there will be a rapidly growing number of Americans available to point out the lies.

In the meantime, only Cuban "exiles" and their relatives will be free to come and go to Cuba, which is a TRUE offense to the rest of us.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #58
324. Castro isn't elected. Chavez is!
big difference. I don't understand this move by Kerry at all.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #40
99. Kerry should be more like RFK and less like bush.
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #40
224. Chavez runs circles around Lula
when it comes to thinking about what is best for all the people of Latin America. He's no "thug." He has many ideas about what LA can to do to avoid being caught in the downward global economic spiral that BushCo has instituted to ensnare and chain down most of the billions of us into serfdom, if it comes to fruition.

Pay attention to Chavez - you might learn something.

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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
321. He is more like Lula than Castro
http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm?subject_id=20&subject_name=Latin%20America

Anyone who will attack Chavez will attack Lula. Mark my words.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
49. kiss my ass johnny boy
you`re a true politician talking out both sides of your mouth at once. kiss the florida cubans ass and try to placate the democratic left. i`ll vote for you johnny boy, but i`ll hold my nose.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #49
85. I don't racall him trying to placate the left on the Venezuala issue
Can you back that up?
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
52. OMG!! I've read both links........so what
IS THE FREAKING TRUTH?

This is NOT a good sign coming from the Kerry Camp. Can I get my donation back?

Is Kucinich still running???????????? shit!! :grr:
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. What are some reasons Kerry should accept this endorsement from Chavez??
Can anyone answer this question? I'm sure there are good AND bad things about Chavez...

What are some specific reasons why Kerry should let this guy think he is influencing him?
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
68. Kerry doesn't have to accept the
endorsement of jack shit. He just needs to stay the hell out of other countries' business. If Hugo Chavez is willing to deal with america in a civilized way, what the hell do we care what he does down there...why attack that guy when he SHOULD be focusing on BUSH and the road to hell bush has us on!

Kerry's doing it BECAUSE OF OIL.....'American interests'

In any case, Kerry's comments are very ill timed.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #68
87. Not very informative...
...I'm going to have to research this myself- I know I'm only going to get one perspective on this thread...
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #87
131. Yes indeed, you NEED to look up the details on Chavez....last
week there was a thread in DU explaining that the MASSES of people seen on TV etc were NOT against Chavez, they were FOR HIM.

Chavez was for the poor--THE MAJORITY--it is the elite wealthy there that are oppossed to his policies. There was a movement by "outsiders" ahem.. to remove him from office. It's a clusterfuck down there in terms of the recall because of those "outsiders" trying to sway the outcome.

The thread I looked at had clear full photos of the marches FOR chavez. Don't you remember Hugo Chavez calling Bush and asshole? Telling Bush NOT to interfere with his country or he would cut off the oil we get from him????

Chavez may not be God's gift to humanity but he sure beats the hell out of Bush's and our domestic policies. They are a latin country. They have their own culture and ways. They should be able to conduct their lives and politics anyway they feel right for them. It is none of our business. How dare we go into any country and impose our brand of Democracy on them?! Our brand is pretty stinky right now.

Again, ITS THE OIL/AMERICAN INTERESTS that drive the focus on Venezuela. Otherwise, no one would give much of a shit what goes on in SA. READ READ READ
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
79. One word
Oil



Because our bonesman is better than their bonesman.
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Barkley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
56. Nader's going to have a field day with this one
And I don't blame him!

The Democrats will lose for sure if they don't put any daylight between themselves and Bush on foreign policy.

Here's a golden opporutunity to make the lies that got us in to the Iraq war a issue. But the Democrats are not questioning Bush on Foreign policy except Bush's AWOL record 35 years ago.

Even if Kerry is elected he plans to increase the troops size in Iraq
(Gee, I wonder how he plans to that ...).

Our party has no moral compasss.

Kerry may make a better candidate but Howard Dean would make a better president.

Kerry may have war hero medals; but Howard Dean has real courage.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. Nader can HIT Kerry where the GOP & Media cant...
...it's a brilliant strategy- 3 against 1- each attacking from a different angle.

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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
82. I don't see anything wrong with the statement
All he says is that Chavez should allow a referendum to take place that he previously agreed to do. And he claims that Chevez has enabled narcoterrorists and that is against our interests. I have no idea how true that is or not. But the main thrust is to support democracy in Venezuela, especially since Haiti's has been decimated. I have no problem with this. Read the statement.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #82
234. It's incredible irresponsible
Especially considering the conditions in Haiti.

There were not enough valid supporting signatures for the referendum. Kerry and the opposition want an excuse to smear Chavez instead of just waiting until the next normal election.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #56
296. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
63. Great
Another move designed to demotivate the base. Another attempt by Kerry to remind us that we aren't wanted in the Party. Why do this? No one cares about Venezuala except the hardcore republicans who won't vote for Kerry any way and those on the left who support Chavez. Why is it that the right respects thier base but the Left thinks they can piss on us all day and we'll beg for more? Fuck you Kerry, if * gets reselected because of your coddling of the right I'll never forgive you.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. What are some reasons Kerry should accept this endorsement from Chavez??
See post #57
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leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
109. Because Chavez is the duly elected president of Venezuela
Chavez and his government have been under constant assault from the same right wing forces that endanger our democracy ever since he was elected. In the last election, Chavez's Party was swept into power on his coat tails. If you want to hear from people who actually live in Venezuela what Chavez's opponents have been up to since then, look through the archives at narconews.com. There's tons of great material in there dating back to before the first 2002 coup. The last time a coup was attempted the first thing the opposition did was suspend the constitution and dissolve the Senate, hardly the actions of those on the side of Democracy. Many Venezuelans have come forward to admit that they were coerced by their bosses them into signing that petition with threats, because the ruling class knows that after decades of exploiting the workers they don't support them. Venezuela is an oil rich country with few foreign enemies, and yet 80% of Venezuelans live below the poverty line, despite having a stable government ruled by them for decades before Chavez. Thats why this coup will fail, no matter what Kerry thinks.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1083
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #109
119. So anyone elected has to be supported by Democrats?
SHIT! That means I have to support the Terminator, I guess. HE was elected too...

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leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #119
159. If a man gets elected in a fair election
then it's immoral to advocate the unlawful overthrow of his office. They couldn't get enough verified ballots collected to justify a recall election, so they faked them and were caught. If your looking for reasons to support him, then perhaps the fact that the people who oppose him in Venezuala are closely linked to the same Cuban community who made Florida fudgable in 2000. You can judge a man by his enemies, and the fact that his harshest critics are also ours is reason enough. He opposes Plan Columbia, which has cost far to many lives proping up a dictator who we know rigs his elections, which is why Kerry says he's pro narco-terrorists. I'd far rather be called pro-narcoterrorist than pro-paramilitary death squad, which is the current US position. He's trying desperately to reform a system that is corrupted to the core, and until I'm given a real reason to oppose him he has my support.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #159
176. Where did Kerry say he advocated overthrow???
I read Kerry's staement- he never said this.

Are you guys doing this by accident, or making shit up on purpose?
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leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #176
188. He's advocating breaking the rules
The opposition has already lost, they failed to get the signatures needed because so many were questionable or proven forgeries. Kerry is 1. making the false statement that Chavez is a dictator, 2. demanding that Chavez overrule his own supreme court to allow this recall election to go through, and 3. siding with the side that actually dissolved the constitution and the Senate in the failed military coup of 2002. I guess that's not technically advocating the overthrow, he's just agitating for the wrong side. I've given alot of ground so far, I've been pimping Kerry to all I know despite the fact that he supported the Iraq war which only hurt America. But I hope Kerry realises that there's only so many of these right wing power grabs I can tolerate from someone I intend to vote for.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #188
192. So the Carter Center also advocates breaking the rules?
I find that hard to believe- or is Kerry lying about that as one of his reasons for not wanting a Chavez endorsment?...

He has not said he wants to overthrow anyone...

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #192
214. Here's what Wilpert said about that:
Kerry: He must be pressured to comply with the agreements he made with the OAS and the Carter Center to allow the referendum to proceed, respect the exercise of free expression, and release political prisoners.


Wilpert: First, the agreement Sen. Kerry refers to here was not made with the OAS and the Carter Center, but with the opposition. The OAS and Carter Center acted as facilitators for this agreement. Second, the agreement does not mention the recall referendum at all. Rather, it calls on both sides to reject violence and to support the constitution. While there has been some debate in Venezuela as to who started the violent protests, there is much evidence that members of the opposition sought out a violent confrontation with state security forces. As for respecting the right to freedom of expression, there is complete and total freedom of expression in Venezuela, more than at any point in Venezuela’s history. Finally, with regard to political prisoners, this is a term that Venezuela’s opposition uses for them, but one which internationally recognized human rights organizations have yet to adopt. As such, Senator Kerry is placing himself as a solid supporter of Venezuela’s opposition, which does not bode well for future relations between the government of Venezuela and a possible President Kerry.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1136
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #119
325. Bad example since the terminator is repuke
Chavez and Kerry have the same enemies. It is that simple. We should support Chavez.
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #63
73. Ditto that AND lets go to the Kerry website and voice our opinions n/t
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
81. Hmmmm, Bush attacks Chavez and Kerry attacks Chavez
Bush wanted an IWR and Kerry voted for the IWR.

So tell me again how these guys are different. I need reminding about what that 16% difference is.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #81
355. Kerry said that Bush was being too soft on Chavez
That is a difference.
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Manwithchildeyes Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
91. Is this his big move to the right?
I wondered when he would shift from his base. That's ok, we'll stick with him since he is ABB.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
92. If he is pandering to Cuban=Americans - then I'm disgusted...
Someone has to find or buy some balls.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #92
100. How much do Cuban Americans care about this? It's a little too tenuous,
if you ask me.

Maybe there's some polling from FL that shows they do. So be it if that's the case.

The thing I fear is that this is pattern behaviour for Kerry: whatever's good for business is cool with him.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
98. I keep trying to convince myself and others to vote for this asshole.
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 09:25 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
We have no other choice but I swear, he makes it harder every day.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #98
250. Well what do you expect?
Of course he is going to say that. Its not in Kerry's interest, or the interest of any US leader concievable to have a socialist Venezuela work, for obvious reasons...

I know what you mean about persuading others though... its like persuading people here to keep voting Blair because the Tories are worse. Gets harder by the day.

V
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hellhathnofury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
102. Full Statement
Kerry Statement on Venezuela


March 19, 2004




With the future of the democratic process at a critical juncture in Venezuela, we should work to bring all possible international pressure to bear on President Chavez to allow the referendum to proceed. The Administration should demonstrate its true commitment to democracy in Latin America by showing determined leadership now, while a peaceful resolution can still be achieved.

Throughout his time in office, President Chavez has repeatedly undermined democratic institutions by using extra-legal means, including politically motivated incarcerations, to consolidate power. In fact, his close relationship with Fidel Castro has raised serious questions about his commitment to leading a truly democratic government.
Moreover, President Chavez’s policies have been detrimental to our interests and those of his neighbors. He has compromised efforts to eradicate drug cultivation by allowing Venezuela to become a haven for narco-terrorists, and sowed instability in the region by supporting anti-government insurgents in Colombia.

The referendum has given the people of Venezuela the opportunity to express their views on his presidency through constitutionally legitimate means. The international community cannot allow President Chavez to subvert this process, as he has attempted to do thus far. He must be pressured to comply with the agreements he made with the OAS and the Carter Center to allow the referendum to proceed, respect the exercise of free expression, and release political prisoners.

Too often in the past, this Administration has sent mixed signals by supporting undemocratic processes in our own hemisphere -- including in Venezuela, where they acquiesced to a failed coup attempt against President Chavez. Having just allowed the democratically elected leader to be cast aside in Haiti, they should make a strong statement now by leading the effort to preserve the fragile democracy in Venezuela.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. Who wrote this pack of lies? Otto Reich?
Kerry is putting his name to this piece of shit?

Kerry is either a big liar, or a complete ignoramus about the Venezuela situation.

Kerry should spend less time skiing with other millionaires and more time finding out what is really going on in Latin America.

Kerry could start by watching the film The Revolution will not be televised:

http://www.chavezthefilm.com/index_ex.htm

Awards 'The Revolution Will Not Be Televised'
has won to date include:

Jury Award, Best Documentary,
Malaga Int'l Film Festival (Spain)

Needle Award,
Seattle Film Festival (USA)

Le Prix George du Beau Regard International, Best Documentary,
FID Marseilles Film Festival (France)

Best Feature Documentary,
Galway Film Fleadh, (Ireland)

The David Wolper Documentary Film Grand Prize, for Best Documentary, 2003 Wine & Country Film Festival (USA)

1st Prize, Best Documentary,
3 Continents Film Festival, (South Africa)

The Silver Hugo Award,
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #108
115. A 2 minute google search shows that Kerry opposed Otto Reich
www.fair.org/articles/otto-reich.html

Reich is opposed by Democratic senators who remember his exploits at the OPD. Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass) commented in March that Reich's "office may have been the genesis of acts of propaganda not just prohibited in this country, but which reflect a kind of carelessness about the truth."


Oh- but the movie says different- yeah- the movie...
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #102
110. Kerry endorses economic sabotage, terrorism
would be an equally valid headline.

I read the entire statement the first time.

The referendum has given people who have been the victim of political terrorism and economic sabotage an opportunity to try to capitulate and make it stop.

Aristide and Chavez are not angels. That does not, however, give the U.S. government to overthrow them against the will of a majority of the people of their countries. And that is precisely the policy of our government, and Kerry endorses it.




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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #102
220. The last paragraph doesn't really seem to go with the first three
It feels tacked on, it doesn't flow from the others in my opinion. It does sound like Kerry is giving a bit of a nudge, nudge, wink, wink to those who want to see Chavez gone. And I kind of liked Carter, but I don't think that just because the Carter Center said something that it is necessarily correct. Ditto for the OAS, which many believe to be too much in the hip pocket of U.S. administrations, at least historically.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
106. I've read enough...this is a total turn off...
first of all...when did this appear - today?

He's skiing and not saying anything about Clarke, but he is saying plenty about Chavez and I don't like it.

I know there is gray, but this is the black and white I know....

No leader and their party is perfect...

But it's obvious Chavez was for the people, has the little people behind him, and is trying not to be thrown out by and/or taken over by the right wing cabal and their oil friends of the United States. There is one major oil company with most of the contracts. They want to take Venezuela. They don't want to imperil their profits. They want more profits. They want to own Venezuela. And Venezuela ships us a significant per cent.

If Kerry makes any noise against Chavez then he is making noise for the right wing cabal and their oil friends in the United States.

Plain and simple. Black and white. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! What do we have here? A right wing with a left wing moniker?

No way Kerry! Dennis - don't drop out.

I'll ask again - what is wrong with you Ted?

Unhappy. Furious.
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metisnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
114. IF YOU WANT TO BEAT GW BUSH
roll with it John Kerry knows exactly what he is doing, just be willing to accept some people moderate views. It will offer debate at DU, something Democrats believe in. We have an opportunity to demonstrate that we still acknowledge that there are good people that have voted R in the past. and will vote Kerry in 04! Democracy is not us or they it is WE.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. You don't beat Bush with another Bush!
Kerry's position on Venezuela is totally anathema to anyone that believes in participatory democracy and the right of people to self-determination.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #117
120. Is it true that Chavez does not comply with the Carter Center?
Kerry cited that as one of his reasons for not accepting this "endorsment"...

I thought Carter was all about promoting self-determination in poorer countries...

I dunno- I'm going to have to research Chavez- no one has told me to many great things about this guy...I'm sure he has done some good things & some bad...
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #120
125. You're probably right. Every leader including our own,
do good and bad things. OK except bush, in his case it's all bad. But at least this man is the first Venezuelan leader to address the 80% poverty rate in the country. The problem I'm having with Carter is the company he has chosen to keep. Mr Cisneros is the Rupert Murdoch of Venezuela.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=1671
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #125
130. 80% poverty rate in the country
Finally someone gives me a specific reason that Kerry should like this guy.

Except no link- the article does not talk about that...
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. It's common knowledge that's the poverty rate.
Any Venezuelan will tell you that. Some even like it that way. The main reason they give me is that people are just too lazy to work. Does that sound familiar? You can go to www.commondreams.org and look up numbers and statistics on this.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #133
138. Oh-sorry- I mean information on HOW and IF he is reducing it...
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 09:57 PM by Dr Fate
I have no reason to doubt that 80% is the poverty rate...
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #138
146. Got it. Like I said.
There's stuff on commondreams, vhheadline, narconews, idymedia and others.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #120
127. America doesn't own Latin America
And Latinos are not the new slaves to keep the "Colossus of the North" fat, dumb, and happy!

I have seen this powerful cinema verite, filmed as it happened!

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED
DIRECTED AND PHOTOGRAPHED BY
KIM BARTLEY AND DONNACHA O'BRIAIN
IRELAND, 2003
74 MINUTES

IN SPANISH WITH ENGLISH SUBTITLES


HUGO CHAVEZ ELECTED PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA IN 1998, IS A COLORFUL,
UNPREDICTABLE FOLK HERO, beloved by his nation's working class and a
tough-as-nails, quixotic opponent to the power structure that would see him
deposed. Two independent filmmakers were inside the presidential palace on April 11, 2002, when he was forcibly removed from office. They were also
present 48 hours later when, remarkably, he returned to power amid cheering aides. Their film records what was probably history's shortest-lived coup d'état. It's a unique document about political muscle and an extraordinary portrait of the man The Wall Street Journal credits with making Venezuela "Washington‚s biggest Latin American headache after the old standby, Cuba."

http://www.chavezthefilm.com/html/film/synopsis.htm

"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"

Mark Gabrish Conlan | 29.11.2003 11:37

When Irish TV documentarians Kim Bartley and Donnacha O'Briain went to Venezuela in late 2001 to start a film about the country's populist president, Hugo Chavez, little did they know they'd be at Miraflores, Venezuela's White House, when a plot hatched by army officers, corporate bureaucrats and the private owners of five of the country's six TV stations organized a march aimed at forcing Chavez from power. For two days the coup -- supported, if not sponsored, by the U.S. -- succeeded in setting up a transitional government and holding Chavez under arrest, until a popular uprising supported by Chavez's Presidential Guard led to his restoration.

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2003/11/102136.shtml
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #127
135. Right- so Kerry should support Chavez???
yesssss- "the movie" says so- must-watch-the-movie...

I've seen "I Cuba"- but that does not mean I have to like everything Castro does!!!-you could argue all of this either way...
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #135
137. No, but you'll hear the voices of many Venezuelans that most people
never get to hear. If you think our media is bad theirs is 100 times worse. At least get two perspectives before making up your mind.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. I've only gotten one perspective on this thread...
...and then another from Kerry's statement.

I am trying to get all the perspectives- not just the pro-Chavez or anti- Kerry ones that predominate this thread...

I have not made up my mind at all- I dont know enough about Chavez to embrace or reject him...

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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #143
148. It's not anti Kerry to criticize the man.
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 09:59 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
We're not freepers. We should hold our own accountable when we don't agree with them. Only zombies and right wingers follow anyone blindly without ever questioning. I think Democrats are better for that reason.
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #143
155. If you want facts do an advanced search on JudiLyn (author)
Chavez (keyword). You will find TONS of info regarding the TRUTH about Chavez in those threads.

There are just WAY too many reference links and stories to start posting and frankly I'm too tired.
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dax Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #143
242. Don't embrace a man or personality-embrace NON_INTERVENTION
Quit trying to either: get every last piece of data to be sure you can judge or b. defer to someone else you think you should respect and accept their opinion. there is a third choice: accept that the Venezuelans should be able to work this out with out US intervention, we should NOT be funding the opposition to a democratically elected president PERIOD nor should we be propagandizing the American public to demonize a president so they will accept the possibility of intervention while we threaten every little country that we have the final say. this is blatant world domination bullshit and our grandkids will pay for it and we will not be better off and they will definitely not be better off-a lot of the m will be DEAD if the opposition wins. They love their death squads. gotta keep those mestizos in line. these are RACIST struggles playing to AMerica's white supremacist base- those colored people just don't know what's good for them, they are so naturally violent, we need to show them the way...
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #120
293. The Carter Center - the last of the A Neo-Liberal defenses
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 11:11 AM by Tinoire
The Carter Center always pulled out like some sort of a trump card. You wanna talk about Jimmy Carter and the Carter Center? Let's go!

Inaugurated 13 months after Indonesia's December 1975 invasion of East Timor, Carter stepped up U.S. military aid to the Jakarta regime as it continued to murder Timorese civilians. By the time Carter left office, about 200,000 people had been slaughtered.

Carter supported despots from Ferdinand Marcos to the Shah of Iran! Some effing Progressive!

In El Salvador, the Carter administration provided key military aid to a brutal regime. In Nicaragua Carter backed dictator Anastasio Somoza almost until the end of his reign. In Guatemala- major U.S. military shipments to bloody tyrants never ended.

=========================================

Jimmy Carter and Human Rights: Behind the Media Myth
By Jeff Cohen and Norman Solomon

<snip>

But a decade after Carter left the Oval Office, scholar James Petras assessed the ex-president's actions overseas -- and found that Carter's image as "a peace mediator, impartial electoral observer and promoter of democratic values...clashes with the experiences of several democratic Third World leaders struggling against dictatorships and pro-U.S. clients."

From Latin America to East Africa, Petras wrote, Carter functioned as "a hard-nosed defender of repressive state apparatuses, a willing consort to electoral frauds, an accomplice to U.S. Embassy efforts to abort popular democratic outcomes and a one-sided mediator."

Observing the 1990 election in the Dominican Republic, Carter ignored fraud that resulted in the paper-thin victory margin of incumbent president Joaquin Balaguer. Announcing that Balaguer's bogus win was valid, Carter used his prestige to give international legitimacy to the stolen election -- and set the stage for a rerun this past spring, when Balaguer again used fraud to win re-election.

In December 1990, Carter traveled to Haiti, where he labored to undercut Jean-Bertrand Aristide during the final days of the presidential race. According to a top Aristide aide, Carter predicted that Aristide would lose, and urged him to concede defeat. (He ended up winning 67 percent of the vote.)

<snip>

The latest developments in Haiti haven't surprised Petras, an author and sociology professor at Binghamton University in New York. "Every time Carter intervenes, the outcomes are always heavily skewed against political forces that want change," Petras said when we reached him on Sept. 20. "In each case, he had a political agenda -- to support very conservative solutions that were compatible with elite interests."

<snip>

http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940921.html

=====

Carter. The man who had Zbigniew Brzezinski, neo-liberal extraordinaire at his right hand! :

The apparent failure of the U.S. Administration including its 26 secret agencies with an annual budget of $30 billion, to come up with any convincing assessment , was one big problem that Von Buelow addressed, in quite some detail.

"I am not the origin of the idea of the enemy image. It originates with Zbigniew Brzezinski and Samuel Huntington, two pioneers of American secret intelligence and foreign policies. Already in the mid-1990s, Huntington opined that people in Europe and the USA needed someone they could hate -- that would strengthen the identification with their own society. And Brzezinski, that mad dog, already at his time as advisor to President Jimmy Carter, campaigned for the sole right of the USA to all the world's raw materials, especially crude oil and natural gas.". . .

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/VonBuelow.html


Brzezinski's book "The Grand Chessboard", 1997, in which he foretells current U.S. conflicts with Iraq and terrorists, is one of the most frightening things a progressive could read. Brzezinski is a trustee of the Trilateral Commission and a member the Center for Strategic and International Studies think tank, is billed by SAIS (School of Advanced International Studies) as a Robert E. Osgood professor of American foreign policy. SAIS, same kind place where our dear friend Wolfowitz was dean and professor of international relations at the university's Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100102_bush_advisors.html


For more on Brzezinski, the Democrats’ Kissinger, & PNAC: http://www.americanidealism.com/stories.php?StoryID=27 Here is one excerpt:

The last act on Afghanistan in the Carter administration was a meeting between Turner and Brzezinski on October 19, where the latter complained ‘over and over’ that he didn’t think CIA was providing enough arms to the insurgents and wanted the Agency to increase the flow. Back at the Agency, the Director of Central Intelligence said that he sympathized with this point of view and wanted to be able to reassure Brzezinski when they next met that CIA was pushing everything through the pipeline that the Pakistanis were willing to receive.”

<snip>

Bearden further relates the circumstances behind this pep talk for the proto-Northern Alliance, Taliban and al Qaeda.

“In January 1980, Carter sent his national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, for consultations with Pakistani leaders who were already supporting the Afghan resistance. On a side trip from Islamabad, Brzezinski traveled the length of the Khyber Pass to the outpost at Michni Point, where he was photographed squinting along the sights of a Soviet AK-47 assault rifle, its muzzle elevated and pointing into Afghanistan. In that moment, the president's national security adviser became the symbol of the impending U.S. phase of involvement in Afghanistan's endless martial history.”

<snip>

    Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

    Zbig: Regret what? That the secret operation was an excellent idea? It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

    Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

    Zbig: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?


Zbig’s flippancy is breathtaking considering that he is describing the intentional manufacture of a war which eventually devastated an entire country, killed over 1 million people and by 1998 had unambiguously turned Afghanistan into a fundamentalist hell hole and terrorist haven. (This repugnant rhetoric recalls Kissinger’s remark concerning the Iran-Iraq War; another bloody conflict costing over 1 million lives whose launch by Saddam Hussein was not condemned and likely tacitly backed by the Carter Administration. “Can’t they both lose?” was Kissinger’s cheeky formulation once the war had stalemated in the mid-1980s.) There are, let us not kid ourselves, millions of Muslims and Arabs, some of them potential al-Qaeda recruits perhaps, who remember such things and many other American government-sponsored duplicities besides. We forget them and do nothing to hinder the recurrence of comparable crimes at our own very real peril.



<snip>

http://www.americanidealism.com/stories.php?StoryID=27

=================

The fourteen families who rule El Salvador have never been squeamish about taking the life of anyone who gets in their way. Among the many people who commonly get in their way are the Catholic clergy, due to the concern they often show for the poor. As a result, a popular slogan among Salvadoran rightists is, "be patriotic-kill a priest."
In 1980, El Salvador's archbishop, Oscar Romero, made the mistake of taking President Carter's human rights rhetoric seriously. He wrote Carter, begging him to stop military support for El Salvador's murderous rulers. Carter ignored Romero, but the people who ran El Salvador didn't. Shortly after he sent the letter, Romero was shot through the heart while saying mass.
Romero's assassination was ordered by Roberto D'Aubuisson (daw-bwee-SAWN), nicknamed Blowtorch Bob for his favorite instrument of torture. A big admirer of Adolf Hitler, D'Aubuisson once said, "You Germans were very intelligent. You realized that the Jews were responsible for the spread of Communism and you began to kill them." D'Aubuisson has passed on, but his ARENA party, supported by the US, still rules El Salvador.

<snip>

In 1982, after he was out of office, Jimmy Carter called El Salvador's government the "blood-thirstiest in the hemisphere." It's too bad he didn't come to that realization back when he-like his predecessors and successors-was funding it.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/ElSalvador_CIAHits.html

=================

Noble Carter?
The Legacy of Jimmy Carter

by Mickey Z
October 11, 2002

<snip>

Jimmy Carter was a president who claimed that human rights was “the soul of our foreign policy” despite making an agreement with Baby Doc Duvalier to not accept the asylum claims of Haitian refugees. His duplicity, however, was not limited to our hemisphere; Carter also earned his Nobel Prize in Southeast Asia.

In Cambodia, Jimmy Carter and his national security aide, Zbigniew Brzezinski made an “untiring effort to find peaceful solutions” by initiating a joint U.S.-Thai operation in 1979 known as Task Force 80 which, for ten years, propped up the notorious Khmer Rouge under the all-purpose banner of anti-Communism. “Small wonder present U.S.-originating stories about the Khmer Rouge end abruptly in 1979,” says journalist Alexander Cockburn. Interestingly, just two years earlier, Carter displayed his “respect for human rights” when he explained how the US owed no debt to Vietnam. He justified this belief because the “destruction was mutual.” It¹s odd that I have no recollections of my city being napalmed or babies born deformed on my block due to Agent Orange. Carter¹s statement, as Noam Chomsky has commented, “is easily worthy of Hitler or Stalin, yet it aroused no comment.”

Moving further southward “to advance democracy and human rights,” we have East Timor. This former Portuguese colony was the target of a relentless and murderous assault by Indonesia since December 7, 1975‹an assault made possible through the sale of U.S. arms to its loyal client-state, the silent complicity of the American press, and then-Ambassador Daniel Patrick Moynihan¹s skill at keeping the United Nations uninvolved. Upon relieving Gerald Ford (but strategically retaining the skills of fellow Nobel peacenik Henry Kissinger), Carter authorized increased military aid to Indonesia in 1977 as the death toll approached 100,000. In short order, over one-third of the East Timorese population (more than 200,000 humans) lost their lives due to war-related starvation, disease, massacres, or atrocities.

Closer to home, Carter also made his mark in Central America. As journalist William Blum details, in 1978, the future Nobel Peace Prize winner attempted to create a “moderate” alternative to the Sandinistas through covert CIA support for “the press and labor unions in Nicaragua.” After the Sandinistas took power, Blum explains, “Carter authorized the CIA to provide financial and other support to opponents.” Also in that region, one of Carter¹s final acts as president was to order $10 million in military aid and advisors to El Salvador‹perhaps “to promote economic and social development.”

A final glimpse of “international co-operation based on international law” during the Carter Administration brings us to Afghanistan, site of a Soviet invasion in December 1979. It was here that Carter and Brzezinski aligned themselves with staunch anti-Communists in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to exploit Islam as a method to arouse the Afghani populace to action. With the CIA coordinating the effort, some $40 billion in US taxpayer dollars were used to recruit “freedom fighters” like Osama bin Laden. The rest, as they say, is history.

<snip>

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=11&ItemID=2463

Naw. You know what- you keep the Carter Center. It ain't nothing more than the salt in the wound.

I personally watched Carter trying to force Aristide out of the Presidential elections in Haiti so that "our guy", Marc Henri Bazin (who coincidentally is back now under the nae of 'Henri Bazin' could trade the people's sweat and blood away to the IMF & World Bank.

Congratulations. You win.

But what do you really win? Bitter sugar from the hacked off arms of 12 year-old Haitian children kidnapped to the US plantations in the Dominican Republic? Crying for their mothers and fathers day and night? Not understanding that when they lose an arm or a leg in those corporate-quick Free-Trade (and yes the emphasis is on FREE) sugar-cane fields, they are doomed to death because there is no such thing as OSHA or disability insurance on your Carter-type peanut sugar plantations?



Why should the bitter tears of dark-skinned chidren interrupt our pleasure? We must emjoy our coffee after all. Throw a packet or two of sugar away while we're at it because we didn't need just that much sugar. Slice up a sweet free-trade banana for our cereal. For dessert, hmmm, let's have a Mango! Why not? Mangos are so cheap, they're FREE!



Yeeeeee-HAW!!!!!

It's rather apparent which side the Carter Peanut Plantation Center is on.


Yeah, I know it hurts. It hurt me too to find out how nasty Carter's feet were. You'll make your own decision. Good luck.

===

For a Lady I Know
By: Countee Cullen

She even thinks that up in heaven
Her class lies late and snores,
while poor black cherubs rise at seven
to do celestial chores.




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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #293
362. This is so disappointing.
What I've been learning about the Carter Centre on DU is quite a
shock. I always thought Jimmy Carter was one of the more decent
men in world politics - sometimes bumbling, but good at heart.

Can we trust anybody?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #362
380. Matilda. I am with you. Knowledge is such a dangerous thing & truth hurts
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:14 PM by Tinoire
and the truth HURTS. Carter and Clinton used to be heroes of mine. Even during the Lewinsky scandal, I was ready to bit the head off ANYONE who dared mention that Clinton was less than irreproachable. It was the same thing with Carter except that the truth about Carter hurt even more.

I have no answer for you when it comes to whom can we trust. When I was growing up, I thought my mother was a cynic because she sounded so much like Nader- saying you couldn't trust any of them. What I brushed off as cynicism used to make me soooo angry (she still thinks the Dems are better though and has a touching fondness for Kerry but she no longer reads much and has no internet- she Loved Dean and laughed at poor Kucinich whom she'd never heard about- when I told her about him, she cut me off after the first paragraph when I mentioned 'single-payer healthcare' saying he was "dead on arrival").

Carter is a personally bitter blow because he is the one who totally shattered my innocence. I still say he was more decent and want to cling to that illusion. Sorry Matilda for bringing you more bitter truth. Thank you for reading that and commenting.
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Rainbows Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #380
430. Me Too Tinoire
This is the first I have seen of much of this about Carter. And it does shatter many illusions I have apparently been fostering, during and after his administration. But, it is the truth that should ultimately guide us all, even if our perceptions turn to fairy tales. Thanks for the info and links.
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #117
123. Yes, you can, if you insist on saying that!
If you are seeing this election as necessarily some sort of moral or ideals test, than you and I are miles apart. This is one step in what is hopefully to be a series of steps to come. Like it or not, Chavez has a stigma in this country, and Kerry does not need that monkey on his back. This is big media politics, not a salon.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #117
157. "You don't beat Bush with another Bush"
Of course you do, that's exactly how to beat a Bush. Ever read the Spy versus Spy cartoons in Mad magazine? It's exactly like that.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #157
161. Bawahahahahaha
I grew up reading MAD magazine, and I love Spy vs Spy. They remind me of Election 2004!
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #161
179. TOP SECRET
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #117
166. Kerry is not "another Bush"...
Kerry is not Bush- you are smearing him again.

Just because Kerry does not agree with Chavez does not make im "another Bush."

Disclaimer: Not a personal attack- but a fact. Calling any Democrat, especially our candidate, "Another Bush" is a smear.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. Is not a smear if it is true!
and when it comes to Venezuela, Kerry = Bush!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #168
172. Uh huh. You've shown me no facts...
...that makes me believe Kerry has the same approach & motives that Bush has.

Just smears- oh yeah, and the movie- can't forget the movie...
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #172
328. The statement is right on Kerry's website
He supports the referendum from the coup plotters complete with false signitures.

Maybe Kerry is just butt ignorant, but supporting the opposition to Chavez is support for Shrubco and his oil buddies.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #166
327. I want Bush out of office and I am trying to be constructive
but this was a truly stupid move, just like his IWR vote, and like his criticism of Spains newly elected President after he gave Kerry his endorcement. It looks like Kerry doesn't want friends. I don't get it.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #114
165. the enemy of my enemy is my friend
ever hear of that??
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
142. Some facts about Venezuela that Kerry has chosen to ignore
Kerry is very much a rightwinger when it comes to Venezuela.

Published on Friday, August 29, 2003 by the International Herald Tribune
Venezuela: The Other Side of the Story
by Mark Weisbrot

All too often White House statements about Iraq's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction, and other dubious justifications for war, were taken at face value by the American press. Now there is another example of the triumph of misinformation, which - not coincidentally - again concerns an oil-rich country where the U.S. government seeks "regime change." Venezuela. This time, however, it is not a dictatorship but a democracy that is under attack.

President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela was democratically elected, first in 1998, and then again in 2000 under a new constitution that was approved by voters in a referendum. Despite massive political turmoil, including a 64-day oil strike that crippled the economy, there have been no states of emergency or suspension of constitutional rights under his government.

In fact, under the Chávez government, in contrast to past governments of Venezuela, freedom of speech, assembly and association have been absolute. "I believe that freedom of speech is as alive in Venezuela as it is in any other country I've visited," former President Jimmy Carter said during a visit there last year.

If the reader has a different impression, it is because American reporting on Venezuela generally includes far-fetched opposition charges - that Chávez is creating a "Castro-communist dictatorship," for example - often without rebuttal.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0829-05.htm

Published on Friday, April 12, 2002 by CommonDreams.org
Coup in Venezuela: An Eyewitness Account
by Gregory Wilpert

The orchestration of the coup was impeccable and, in all likelihood, planned a long time ago. Hugo Chavez, the fascist communist dictator of Venezuela could not stand the truth and thus censored the media relentlessly. For his own personal gain and that of his henchmen (and henchwomen, since his cabinet had more women than any previous Venezuelan government’s), he drove the country to the brink of economic ruin. In the end he proceeded to murder those who opposed him. So as to reestablish democracy, liberty, justice, and prosperity in Venezuela and so as to avoid more bloodshed, the chamber of commerce, the union federation, the church, the media, and the management of Venezuela’s oil company, in short: civil society and the military decided that enough is enough—that Chavez had his chance and that his experiment of a “peaceful democratic Bolivarian revolution” had to come to an immediate end.

This is, of course, the version of events that the officials now in charge and thus also of the media, would like everyone to believe. So what really happened? Of course I don’t know, but I’ll try to represent the facts as I witnessed them.

First of all, the military is saying that the main reason for the coup is what happened today, April 11. “Civil society,” as the opposition here refers to itself, organized a massive demonstration of perhaps 100,000 to 200,000 people to march to the headquarters of Venezuela’s oil company, PDVSA, in defense of its fired management. The day leading up to the march all private television stations broadcast advertisements for the demonstration, approximately once every ten minutes. It was a successful march, peaceful, and without government interference of any kind, even though the march illegally blocked the entire freeway, which is Caracas’ main artery of transportation, for several hours.

Supposedly at the spur of the moment, the organizers decided to re-route the march to Miraflores, the president’s office building, so as to confront the pro-government demonstration, which was called in the last minute. About 5,000 Chavez-supporters had gathered there by the time the anti-government demonstrators got there. In-between the two demonstrations were the city police, under the control of the oppositional mayor of Caracas, and the National Guard, under control of the president. All sides claim that they were there peacefully and did not want to provoke anyone. I got there just when the opposition demonstration and the National Guard began fighting each other. Who started the fight, which involved mostly stones and tear gas, is, as is so often the case in such situations, nearly impossible to tell. A little later, shots were fired into the crowds and I clearly saw that there were three parties involved in the shooting, the city police, Chavez supporters, and snipers from buildings above. Again, who shot first has become a moot and probably impossible to resolve question. At least ten people were killed and nearly 100 wounded in this gun battle—almost all of them demonstrators.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0412-08.htm

Distributed to newspapers on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 by Knight-Ridder/Tribune Information
U.S. Still Intervening Against Democracy in Venezuela
by Mark Weisbrot

CARACAS -- "Where are they getting their money?" asks historian Samuel Moncada, as the television displays one opposition commercial after another. Moncada is chair of the history department at Central University of Venezuela in Caracas. We are sitting in one of the few restaurants that is open in the eastern, wealthier part of Caracas.

For two weeks during this country's business-led strike, the privately owned stations that dominate Venezuelan television have been running opposition "info-mercials" instead of advertisements, in addition to what is often non-stop coverage of opposition protests.

"I am sure there is money from abroad," asserts Moncada. It's a good guess: prior to the coup on April 11, the U.S. National Endowment for Democracy stepped up its funding to opposition groups, including money funneled through the International Republican Institute. The latter's funding multiplied more than sixfold, to $340,000 in 2001.

But if history is any guide, overt funding from Washington will turn out to be the tip of the iceberg. This was the case in Haiti, Nicaragua, Chile, and other countries where Washington has sought "regime change" because our leaders didn't agree with the voters' choice at the polls. (In fact, Washington is currently aiding efforts to oust President Aristide in Haiti -- for the second time). In these episodes, which extended into the 1990s, our government concealed amounts up to the hundreds of millions of dollars that paid for such things as death squads, strikes, economic destabilization, electoral campaigns and media.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1218-05.htm
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #142
150. Kerry just treading water
politically speaking. He comes out with a jab at Chavez, but throws a punch at Bush.

I don't agree with him and think he is, as somebody else said, not up to speed on what is going on in Venezuela. Has he heard of Cisneros?


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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
145. It's not just distancing
Kerry has unequivocally stated:

President Chavez has repeatedly undermined democratic institutions by using extra-legal means, including politically motivated incarcerations, to consolidate power...

Chavez’s policies have been detrimental to our interests and those of his neighbors...

He has compromised efforts to eradicate drug cultivation...

He has allowed Venezuela to become a haven for narco-terrorists...

He has sown instability in the region by supporting anti-government insurgents in Colombia...

President Chavez has attempted to subvert the referendum process.

(As a longtime Kerry supporter and daughter of a native Venezuelan, I am very, very happy to hear these forthright statements.)
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #145
219. I'll beleive the daughter of a native Venezuelan before most anyone else
and our Colombian nanny also says that Chavez is bad news, based on reports from her Venezuelan friends.
As if Kerry didn't think this thing through.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #219
237. Thank you
And Mama was not of the oligarchy. Raised in a dirt-floor hut. Heard politicians' false promises from the 1920's on. Chavez is cut from the same cloth as all the rest. Just a lot better "pressed."
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #237
273. and thank you!
I have the utmost faith that Kerry will steer the righteous path. He's my man and I'm sticking with him!
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #237
288. And many people of all stripes love and hate
politians for one reason or another. Just because your mother dislikes Chavez means only that your mother dislikes Chavez. We simply can't intervene in every country where someone's mother dislikes the democratically elected government.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #288
326. Not so, Dhalgren
My mother is deceased, it is not "just because she dislikes Chavez."
Having a parent from there, I also have a lot of family from there. And many are still there. I keep in touch.

Have you ever listened to a speech by Hugo Chavez? Ever talked to a political prisoner? Seen Caracas in the 1950's, '60's, 70's....etc., and seen it now? I have.

Why does Hugo Chavez have more credit with some people here, than John Kerry does? How does one begin to compare the two men?
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #145
329. That what Bush says too. Do we have any reason to trust Bush
at this point?
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #329
336. Bush agrees with Kerry, Kerry's wrong? Chavez disagrees, Kerry's wrong?
Is that the formula?
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #336
339. Kerry admitted Bush mislead him before
! Why should we trust Bush now. I trust Palast more than the NY times and Palast says it is a bunch of bunk.

http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm?subject_id=20&subject_name=Latin%20America

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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #339
350. Good grief, man!
I didn't say we should trust Bush. What does Bush have to do with anything? He breathes and eats 3 squares a day like Kerry, does that make it suspicious activity on Kerry's part?
Bush and Kerry and you and I agree on all sorts of things, sometimes very odd bedfellows we.
Matter of fact, I'm not altogether sure WHAT Bush really thinks about Ven and its leader*, because Bush comes from oil money, about which I know a thing or two. There are few loyalties there, including loyalty to political principles. I'd be very surprised if Bush deals with Ven according to his conservative ideas at the expense of, shall we say pragmatic results. In any case, we're on very slippery turf to use Bush's policy as a premise for our debate, so I don't consider it.

*That could stand some elucidation. Bush may consider Chavez a useful idiot, someone to be given more rope to hang himself. Bush may believe that Chavez can cause his own coup without any US help. I don't know what Bush 'thinks.' :puke: Let's stop this line of thinking before I get nauseous!
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #350
351. If you don't know what Bush thinks you obviously
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 03:21 PM by Classical_Liberal
don't know shit about Venezuala, nor are you paying attention to the news, nor are you reading the links I provided. Bush was behind the coup plot. Supported the coup plotters. Da!
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #351
354. It really makes it easier to attempt dialogue when they are at least
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 03:32 PM by JudiLyn
semi-informed on the subject, doesn't it?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
153. Maybe he's doing what is expected of him. I don't know anymore.
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 10:20 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
But I sure hope his policies are more open minded than his rhetoric. He should go down there and find out for himself what is going on. He should engage Mr Chavez even if he disagrees with him. Every other world leader has to deal with our monkey whether they like him or not.
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
162. Good for Kerry
Its nice to see that his liberalism is universal - he applies the same standards of democracy, human rights, pluralism and the rule of law to all - including self-annointed "leftists."

I supported another candidate in the primaries, but more and more I'm coming to the conclusion that John Kerry is just about the smartest, most substantive, and most profoundly honest men on the stage today. Kerry in '04!
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #162
330. What are you talking about. The opposition are the coup plotters
and not democratically elected. It means Kerry is buying Bush's antidemocratic crap. http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm?subject_id=20&subject_name=Latin%20America
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patriotvoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
163. Is it pandering or strategy?
I am tired, so I will be brief: this may be a strategy to maximize Republican attrition.

Kerry's goal is to secure the Presidency. Since it's believed the race will be tight, Kerry may be trying to secure as many votes from the pro-corporation (read "Republican") base as possible, because he knows that Democrats will, largely, vote for him. The more votes Kerry has, the less chance Bush has of nefariously circumventing (again) the election process.

Until Kerry is President, take what he says now with a grain of salt and bear this in mind: everything he says will be glorious to some, odious to others. It makes more strategic sense to rile Democrats with Republican rhetoric in an effort to maximize attrition.

If, however, Kerry becomes President and behaves against your wishes, do exactly what you're doing now: protest.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #163
167. It is neither! It is either a benign manifestation of total stupidity
or the sinister manifestation of Kerry's true nature as an agent of the darkest forces that own this nation. A soulmate of the Bush cabal, as far as Venezuela, Haiti, Iraq, and the I/P conflict goes.

Any doubts that PPI is a mirror image of PNAC?
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #167
169. Sinister manifestation of Kerry's true nature?
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 10:37 PM by mobuto
LOL.

It is really unfair that Kerry's isn't here to defend himself, being preoccupied as you know with sacrificing virgins to almighty Ba'all, or whatever is in his "true nature". ;-)

Actually, I think Kerry's voice has been strong, honest, clear and direct. He criticized the Administration's policy with regard to Haiti - he said we shoud have intervened to prop up Aristide. Now I disagree with that, but I respect his opinion and I believe he holds it honestly. I also believe that in this case, Kerry again is looking for an honest, apolitical answer. Chavez is an autocrat, a demagogue, a man with a long record of contempt for dissent and for the electoral process, and a kleptocrat. Just because he calls himself a Leftist doesn't mean he's good. And I think it speaks very highly of Kerry that he applies the same standards of decency and democracy to everybody, foe and would-be friend alike.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #169
173. Your characterization of Chavez is 100% wrong
but it is the sort of crap one reads in rags like the WSJ, NY Times, and Washington Post (the same folks that told us Saddam had WMD).
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #173
177. No, the only folks who told us Saddam had WMD
were the Bush Administration. Evidence of Chavez's abuses comes from all sources, including from the leading international human rights organizations. Is Chavez the worst leader in the world? Not hardly. But he's anti-democratic, anti-human rights, and really not someone liberals like myself really want to associate with.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #177
182. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #182
190. Did you ever have any doubts?
What did you think I was?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #190
195. I always thought you were a fine, scholarly gentleman
What else could I thought?
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #195
203. Why thank you
;-)
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #203
204. You are welcome
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 11:32 PM by IndianaGreen
I miss our exchange of PMs like we used to do. While we seldom agreed on anything, I always respected your intellectual integrity.

:)
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #182
333. adios
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #177
209. Do you have a cite for that claim that Chavez is anti-human rights?
First, the agreement Sen. Kerry refers to here was not made with the OAS and the Carter Center, but with the opposition. The OAS and Carter Center acted as facilitators for this agreement. Second, the agreement does not mention the recall referendum at all. Rather, it calls on both sides to reject violence and to support the constitution. While there has been some debate in Venezuela as to who started the violent protests, there is much evidence that members of the opposition sought out a violent confrontation with state security forces. As for respecting the right to freedom of expression, there is complete and total freedom of expression in Venezuela, more than at any point in Venezuela’s history. Finally, with regard to political prisoners, this is a term that Venezuela’s opposition uses for them, but one which internationally recognized human rights organizations have yet to adopt. As such, Senator Kerry is placing himself as a solid supporter of Venezuela’s opposition, which does not bode well for future relations between the government of Venezuela and a possible President Kerry.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1136
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #177
331. citation?
What internationally recongnized human rights organizations have said this?
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #173
226. Sounds like the same kettle of fish with a different vintage
Come on Indiana, I know you don't have that appendage stuck to on the end of handle for looks. Old hands should not be surprised. They shoe-horned in this outright fraud / traitor, would make anybody think they would give him up for any of less deal.

We collectively have a problem that can only be solved collectively.

Listening to Press for most professional sports players is tantamount to having a frontal lobotomy, my guess is something very similar goes on here. Not giving the guy a break but a little grief is a good thing

Being misinformed is quite different from perpetrating decrypted deceit. Projection and hedging your bets is also another. Sticking to your guns and sticking on Kerry like a cheap suit will only get one to voting booth.

Beside if we don't give em hell, they will think we don't really care :grr:


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patriotvoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #167
175. That certainly may be...
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 10:47 PM by patriotvoice
... and I respect your opinion. Kerry has never given me a good vibe, but until he demonstrates detrimental behaviour (either as President or through his Senate voting), whatever he says has no physical value; it is all conjecture.

On edit: I am using "detrimental," in this instance, to specifically mean "harmful to one's own belief system."
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patriotvoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #163
358. Incidentally, why pro-business support will be useful this election cycle:
Businesses Point Workers Toward Ballot Boxes
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11612-2004Mar20.html

"A growing number of large U.S. corporations are offering services to register their employees to vote and mounting get-to-the-polls drives that advocates hope will swell the ranks of pro-business voters this election year.

Companies portray the voter push as a nonpartisan employee benefit. But Republicans see it as a boon to their hopes of maintaining control of the House and Senate and reelecting President Bush. And Democrats, who have long benefited from union-led get-out-the-vote campaigns, are worried that business finally has developed a vigorous counterpunch.

During the elections of 2000 and 2002, District-based industry groups launched pilot programs to determine whether such techniques would encourage pro-business voting or turn off workers. Polling afterward demonstrated that most employees welcomed their companies' involvement as long as it was done with a light touch. Firms also saw evidence that pro-business voting increased.

As a result, the number of companies that provide voter registration and other election-oriented services is expanding, with a special emphasis on voting via absentee ballot…"
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
164. Yup, Chavez wants to use his country's oil for his own people
instead of US corporate whores. Kerry...same old shit!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
171. King's Legacy Lives on - in Venezuela
More liberal "propaganda" to free those that are still in the Matrix:

Published on Friday, January 16, 2004 by USA TODAY
King's Legacy Lives on - in Venezuela
by Julianne Malveaux

People too often celebrate Martin Luther King Jr. as a "dreamer" who envisioned a day when people would be judged by their character, not the color of their skin. That was not all he wanted, or what Monday's holiday is entirely about.

Although King is an icon of the civil rights movement, he hardly belongs only to African- Americans. As he underscored in his Nobel Peace Prize speech when he asserted his "audacity to believe that people everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits," King championed all people living in poverty worldwide.

I was delighted, therefore, when I traveled with others from the TransAfrica Forum to celebrate King's birthday in Caracas, Venezuela. We went with Minister of Education Aristobulo Isturiz to open a school named after King. It's among more than 3,000 "Bolivarian" schools created since Hugo Chavez became Venezuela's president in 1999. The schools, open all day, provide two meals and a snack to poor children.

There's also a new Bolivarian University, which increases higher education's availability, especially to poorer students. Further, more than a million adults have taken literacy classes in the past two years.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0116-08.htm
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
178. Kucinich
"We have no other choice but I swear, he makes it harder every day."

The Oligarchy has decided that either gw bush or Kerry will do.

I wonder how many votes Kucinich could get if the people such as myself would vote for him and say if my vote causes the Bush Crime Syndicate to win at least I voted for the candidate I actually believe in?
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #178
180. "The Oligarchy" didn't choose John Kerry
the rank and file of the Democratic Party did, in Iowa, in New Hampshire, in Missouri, in Arizona, in New Mexico, in New York and California, in Florida -- all over the country. Democrats like John Kerry and for good reason.
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abracadabra Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #180
189. of course the oligarchy chose him and you bought it!
You must have bought the hype --Kerry this Kerry that-tv radio 24/7- ---the media assasination of Dean-(turning the crowd volume off in his speech-)
Not even one (count'm one) issue was dicussed regarding Kerry's stance before all you heard wuz :-Kerry is "the only one who could beat jorge DubbleYou Boosh(whenever they say the word dubbleyou it's the corporate cheerleaders)-
-Why did people buy that?-
-Dean addressed issues-health care &Iraq-
Clark had issues --& a real General against an AWOL would win any day-no question--
-Kerry had the support of the corporate cheeleaders and
I am guessing they wanted to run numbskull against him since they think they have some Kerry dirt that they'll break at the last minute--


You actually think the majority of the Dems wanted Kerry???
Ha ha ha
the key word here is "think"
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #189
193. Please- I voted Clark,,,
...and now I support the nominee, Kerry...

Dont act like Kerry supporters are sheep- I did not even WATCH the media coverage of Dean...
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #189
194. Look
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 11:09 PM by mobuto
The last thing I want to do is support the broadcast media's coverage of the election. Its clearly flawed, and one of the biggest ways in which its flawed, I think, is that it only focusses on the horse race. You're absolutely right - there really wasn't a comparison of Dean on the issues with Kerry and Clark on the issues. Hell, I worked for one of the candidates (not Kerry) and I can't tell you how frustrated I was that all the media was covering were polls and the candidate's style. I can go on and on, about this, but I really don't think you can make the case that there was any grand conspiracy or anything of the kind. Its just the way things work and the way they have worked in presidential politics for the last few decades.

So no, there isn't an oligarchy and yes, Kerry did win the support of Democratic voters. Maybe not in the way you and I would have liked, but in a fair way and honestly.

John Kerry is a good man, a brave man, he's right on the issues that matter to me, and I think he'll be a terrific President. I pay more attention to electoral politics than most Americans, probably a lot more than most DUers, and I can say I wasn't hoodwinked into supporting Kerry, even if he was my second choice. I think he's a great candidate and I'm going to do my best to see him into office.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #189
197. A lot of Dems voted for Jim Barry
Like that California guy who said that he was undecided, but thought maybe that 'Jim Barry' guy might be 'electable.' This is Kerry's base--heavily larded with people who don't pay much attention to elections, but cull vague impressions of what is going on from various media sources.

If he thinks he can win without the enthusiasm and shoeleather of the self-organized folks who supported Dean and Clark, and who still support Kucinich, he is badly mistaken. Without us he can tie Bush, but he damned well better start paying more attention to the only people who can put him over the top.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #189
365. Kerry's sudden rise to the top of the pile was very suspicious.
I think the media moguls deliberately shot Dean down, and built
Kerry up because if Bush is going to be defeated, they want someone
who thinks like them in power. They made sure Kucinich had no hope
at all by ignoring him. I've mentioned Kucinich to American friends
who've never heard of him, so most people do get their news and
opinions from mainstream media.

This is the biggest hurdle progressives everywhere have to get over -
control of the media by hardline right-wingers.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
183. Chomsky"opinion of Kerry
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 11:22 PM by bvar22
<snip>
"Noam Chomsky, the political theorist and leftwing guru, yesterday gave his reluctant endorsement to the Democratic party's presidential contender, John Kerry, calling him "Bush-lite", but a "fraction" better than his rival.
Professor Chomsky - a linguist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology as well as a renowned chronicler of American foreign policy - said there were "small differences" between Senator Kerry and the Republican president. But, in an interview on the Guardian's politics website, he added that those small differences "can translate into large outcomes".

He describes the choice facing US voters in November as "the choice between two factions of the business party". But the Bush administration was so "cruel and savage", it was important to replace it.

He said: "Kerry is sometimes described as 'Bush-lite', which is not inaccurate. But despite the limited differences both domestically and internationally, there are differences. In a system of immense power, small differences can translate into large outcomes."

<end>


We should be under no illusions who we will be working to elect. There will be NO REAL SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE in America.

The Wal-Martization of the World will continue

The middle class will continue to decline

The gap between the very rich and the rest of us will continue to grow

Human Rights and Civil Rights will continue to erode in favor of corporate profits.

All forms of collective bargaining will be squashed, and the Voice of Labor will continue to be marginalized.

Police State Powers and domestic spying will continue to evolve to protect the Corporate State and the Ruling Class.


I agree with Chomsky that it is vital that we support and work hard for the Democratic Party in this election cycle no matter how nauseating.

We must also use our collective creativity to find ways to make our voices heard. There is a Progressive Caucus within the Dem Party that is on our side.



link added on edit(oops)http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1174017,00.html
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abracadabra Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #183
191. need a link please
would like top read it myself--this is good!
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #183
241. I think ultimately Kerry's move to the right and the abandonment of the
progressive wing of the democratic party is a loser! He needs to take a page from Rove and play to his base and not to this so-called muddled middle. He should stand in as stark a contrast as he can to Bush -- let plenty of light between -- in order to energize those of us who have historically been the real foot soldiers in campaigns and to energize voters who have given up on the system. It's his to lose and if he continues down the 'me too' path with Bush he will lose -- and take us all down with him. That's why I'm so livid with him. The Dems tried that strategy in 2002 to disastrous results.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #183
269. Right on!!
no matter how nauseating
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
196. Link to Greg Wilpert's Rebuttal to Senator Kerry’s Statement on Venezuela
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1269488


Link to the actual analysis provided by DU's AP:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1136

<snip>
It is not up to President Chavez whether there is a referendum. Venezuela’s constitution clearly establishes rules that must be followed for a referendum to be called. The president has nothing to do with this procedure. If Kerry has any evidence that Chavez is preventing the referendum process from proceeding, then he should spell out what it is that he has done.
...
If relationships with undemocratic rulers are enough to question a leader’s commitment to democracy, then the commitment to democracy of just about every president in U.S. history must be questioned.
<snip>

<snip>
Sen. Kerry stands in direct contradiction with U.S. government testimony that says that the Venezuelan government has been very cooperative with US drug enforcement agencies. More drugs have been intercepted by the Chavez government than any previous government. While this could reflect in increase in drug trafficking in Venezuela, it proves that Venezuela’s government has far from “compromised efforts.”<1>

Even the head of the U.S. Southern Command, Gen. James Hill, who is directly involved in plan Colombia and the U.S. anti-drug trafficking effort, has denied that there is any evidence of connections between the Venezuelan government and “anti-government insurgents” in Colombia.<2> If Senator Kerry has any evidence of such connections, he should provide them to the U.S. military so that they might be properly informed.
<snip>
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #196
247. Thank you for posting this. It's good evidence of Chavez's character.
And it directly refutes the bullshit coming out of Kerry's mouth on this issue.

He has enraged me now. This is too far. He is siding with the same kinds of people who make up the BFEE.

This is madness.

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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
198. Someone said trust Kerry, he knows what he is doing....
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 11:17 PM by higher class
Well, I thought I couldn't, but I thought I was supposed to trust Dashle when a significant number of Senators voted to support Bush in the killing in Iraq. In spite of all the talk and wise and visionary suppositions that appeared on DU and the facts that started to flow in about the real reason we were going in to Iraq in spite of the UN or anyone's opinion other than Wolfkowitz, Rumnut, Cheney, Rice, Perle, Powell, Armitage and the PNACers, we went in with the full of approval of Kerry, Clinton, Shurmer, Edwards, Daschle, etc.

Well, I won't trust anymore.

I don't believe in them anymore.

Ask the families of the soldiers who lost their minds or their immune system or their limbs or their bodies about how they feel trusting.

State Dept = Rice = oilers = Reich = CIA = Military = media = the U.S. takeover of Venezuela with Kerry approving.

No more trusting. Look at Haiti.

Fahgedaboudit.
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #198
202. Look at Haiti?
You are aware that Kerry's position on Haiti is that he thinks the US should have intervened to put down the rebellion and prop up Aristide?
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #202
233. So generous and fair, after the fact
Just like with Iraq.

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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #202
245. Well then Kerry would be right for once
because the rebellion isn't a rebellion by the people, it is a Duvalier supporters attempt to gain back the power and influence they had under their favorite dictator.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #198
243. No more trusting?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 02:41 AM by draftcaroline
If---if---you are a typical American, like so many on this board, you've never spoken with a citizen of Venezuela in your entire life. You've never been there either. And all you know about Chavez is what you've been told by the various media.
No more trusting the media is a good start. Go to Venezuela, see for yourself. You won't like it.

Many here trust Hugo Chavez more than they trust John Kerry. They'll turn their backs on Kerry, and honor a demented thug like Chavez. That is bizarre.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #243
286. I don't have to go to Vietnam or Venezuela or Timor to know a little
history about the what the U.S. policies have been. There is a group of people who want to control these countries by pressure in a variety of ways - most of them cruel - and most of them bi-level - they woo or persecute their leader and they don't give a d... if the little people suffer. It's in many books, it's in many government documents, it's in the experiences of these people, it's the reasons for many deaths.

Venezuela has terrible crime - it is a have and have not country in spite of the oil and mineral wealth.

Chavez is not giving in to the U.S. and any of their European oil partners - the non-rich people and the military who won't be bought out support him.

He is the leader - we don't have any right to kick him out.

What are his crimes against his people?

I only concede that Kerry does't need his endorsement at this time because his political foe is the very person whose partners are trying to take over Venezuela and they don't need ammunition.

But every word I take in about what Kerry is saying is complete sublimation to the U.S. predators of Venezuela - I am grandly disappointed in his manuever.

Where is the backbone of his youth?
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #286
335. To know 'a little,' yes. About 'the little people,' yes.
There's a group of people, you say: "they don't give a d... if the little people suffer."
And there's another group like that. Their leader is Hugo Chavez.

You cannot make a reasoned judgment about Hugo Chavez by knowing a little, or even a lot, about American policy. Listen to his lengthy tirades on the radio, listen to his victims, then go home and listen to him again, inciting more hatred and calling for more victims. He simply doesn't call them victims. The effective demagogue never does; he calls them swine, parasites, apes, etc. They're to blame for the misery of the "real" people of the nation. Sound familiar?

One hears that enough, one sees Chavez' goons arrest a stranger and one thinks, well that must be one of the evil ones, he deserves it, nothing to see here...Eventually they come for one's neighbor. Sound familiar?

Why does Hugo Chavez need to incite hatred? Why does he rely on words, not deeds? Why does anyone? Because words deceive better, faster.

I don't expect you to take my word for anything. I hope, merely, that people will judge issues on the best evidence of their own faculties. And the best evidence is in Venezuela, not in your newspapers.

Try also to consider that John Kerry may be right. That idea might fumigate some of the Chavez propaganda you have absorbed.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #335
371. Your post reminds me of a few others I've received where I
am expected to believe something accusatory - without documentational reference of any kind - (in our case links, magazine, book, speaker, newspaper, gov doc, etc.)
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pfitz59 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
206. Divide and conquer folks......
Spurious attacks. Cherry-picking votes and quotes. Please don't fall into the trap! There are "agents provocateurs" on ALL the Liberal and Progressive websites. BE AWARE!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #206
211. The link to the full text of Kerry's statement was posted here
in post#1:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x438272#438285

There are no selective quotes in this thread!

Perhaps you might also be interested in the rebuttal to Kerry:

Greg Wilpert's Rebuttal to Senator Kerry’s Statement on Venezuela

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1269488

Thanks to tlcandie for providing the link to AP's GD thread.
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Rochambeau Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
210. Come on, we all know that
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 11:54 PM by Rochambeau
John Kerry is not a far leftist ! And now at least we know that he is honest !
I would have read that Kerry supports Chavez I would have think :" Bullshit ! Uhmm Kerry can lie just like the chimp!"

EDIT-spelling
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #210
215. Now we know that Kerry embraces the neocon agenda for Venezuela
What a guy!
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
212. The headline is misleading.
There is no "attack." Kerry is saying that he won't support undemocratic behavior, period.
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
216. I will reluctently vote for Kerry because bush is no alternative but
I have always believed Kerry is NOT progressive. Sadly, many in the Dem party aren't either. We have great leaders in the Dem party and many so-so leaders. We've got outright conservatives too=Lieberman.

Look at this, is it the neoliberal PNAC?:

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?contentid=252144&subsecid=900020&knlgAreaID=450004

...........
In times of danger, Americans put aside partisanship and unite in the defense of our country. That is why, as Democrats, we supported the Bush administration's toppling of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. We also backed the goal of ousting Saddam Hussein's malignant regime in Iraq, because the previous policy of containment was failing, because Saddam posed a grave danger to America as well as his own brutalized people, and because his blatant defiance of more than a decade's worth of United Nations Security Council resolutions was undermining both collective security and international law. We believed then, and we believe now, that this threat was less imminent than the administration claimed and that the United States should have done much more to win international backing and better prepare for post-war reconstruction. Nonetheless, we are convinced that the Iraqi people, the region and the world are better off now that this barbaric dictator is gone.

.............
We begin by reaffirming the Democratic Party's commitment to progressive internationalism -- the belief that America can best defend itself by building a world safe for individual liberty and democracy. We therefore support the bold exercise of American power, not to dominate but to shape alliances and international institutions that share a common commitment to liberal values. The way to keep America safe and strong is not to impose our will on others or pursue a narrow, selfish nationalism that betrays our best values, but to lead the world toward political and economic freedom.

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freeforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #216
218. Just read some of the material on the PPI site
and it sounds like the Dem version of PNAC to me.

Bush or Bush-lite. What a choice!
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #218
223. Same evil shit, different wrapper.
Somebody needs to drive a stake through the heart of the ghouls selling this fascist eutopia.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #223
248. As my roommate said, "Different puppet, same hand."
NT!

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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
230. Sorry, but if you expect Kerry to run as a socialist, you're dreaming
Kerry isn't a socialist. This fact really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, but the fact that it apparently does illustrates the fact that some DU'ers simply aren't living in the real world.

I don't know why people expect Kerry to ally himself with a socialist who has ties to Fidel Castro. But then again, I don't know why so many DU'ers are sympathetic towards Castro.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #230
298. That is why he is being smeared and lied about on this thread...
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 11:23 AM by Dr Fate
...because he is not "socialist' enough...

We are all suppposed to be lock step with his Chavez guy because he is supposedly some Marxist hero?

No one has even showed me any data that he is helping his country even- it's all just slogans & Kerry smears from the same old Skull & Bones enthusists...

- I dont know enough about him to suggest Kerry should accept his support...and this thread is low on specific reasons why he should...
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #298
309. Just trying to blow away the disinformation

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vsglist/message/662

THE NEW YORK TIMES
The Oil Company as Social Worker
By BRIAN ELLSWORTH
Published: March 11, 2004

CRUCERO DEL CARO, Venezuela - Siadys Bayuelo, 33, has spent
four years urging local authorities to pipe potable water
into her home in this dusty town in eastern Venezuela,
sparing her the trouble of walking a mile every day to the
nearest well.

Now, contractors are drilling wells around the region as
part of a $140,000 project that will eventually pipe water
into her three-room cinderblock house and hundreds of
others nearby, easing a hardscrabble life. But rather than
thanking the local government, Ms. Bayuelo says she is
grateful to the state-run oil company, which has extensive
but faceless operations in this gas-rich region.

"I'm so happy that we're finally going to have water in the
house," she said recently while bathing her 1-year-old son
from water drawn out of an old petroleum drum. "This is the
first time the company has ever done anything for us."

All across this oil-rich and poverty-riddled country, the
state oil giant, Petróleos de Venezuela, the country's
economic engine, is embarking on a radical and wide-ranging
social spending program that includes building homes,
running literacy programs and developing agriculture. In
all, the company, known worldwide as Pdvsa (pronounced
peh-deh-VEH-sah), is increasing its social spending from
less than $40 million in previous years to $1.7 billion
this year, according to the company's 2004 budget: $616
million on various programs, $600 million on agricultural
development and $500 million on low-income housing.
(snip)

http://www.golshan.com/english/articles/20021218c.txt
BIG OIL IS BEHIND IT: CLASS STRUGGLE DEEPENS IN VENEZUELA
By Gloria La Riva

The U.S. is mindful that the April 11 fascist coup against Chavez was
frustrated by the heroic intervention of tens of thousands of people, who
restored him to office. Their spontaneous mobilization to return Chavez to
the presidency was unprecedented and gave the masses an understanding of
their own power.

However, the U.S. tactics may change at a moment's notice. If the right
wing were defeated and revolutionary power further consolidated, there is a
very real danger of U.S. military intervention. Already the U.S. is pumping
billions in military aid into neighboring Colombia to try to smash the
guerrilla struggle there.

So far, Hugo Chavez has strongly rejected the counter-revolution's demand
for an early referendum in February on his presidency. At first the
right-wing opposition demanded a non-binding February referendum on his
rule, but it has escalated its demand to a binding vote.

Since his election by an overwhelming majority, the Chavez government has
instituted many progressive economic and social measures, including land
reform, improved health, housing, education and a new pro-worker
constitution. His administration has struggled to empower the people
through the setting up of defense groups called Bolivarian social circles.
A new labor formation, the Fuerza Bolivariana de Trabajadores, has arisen.

Latin America is witnessing a continent-wide revival of popular struggles
against economic destitution brought on by neoliberal policies and
repression dictated by imperialism. From Brazil to Ecuador to Argentina,
action is accompanying a rising consciousness. The Bolivarian revolutionary
struggle in Venezuela is part of that great wave of change.
(snip)
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
231. That's sucks and is shortsighted
I understand what some have pointed out re: counting on ABB and therefore going for the ever problematic swing.

OK, that seems to be the plan, and makes sense, maybe in a first glance, in some winning elections, back room kind of way.

But what they are missing in camp Kerry is the vast number of people who self-disenfranchise, or are apathetic and what not, for the perception, however inaccurate, that the candidates are saying the same damn thing.

Low voter turn outs, getting lower ever year. That's the reason.

This year was shaping up to be different. As it should. Kerry should use B*sh/Rove strategy #1 and be for the exact of opposite of anything B*sh is. That's what will get massive numbers of voters to the poll, the chance for, and even excitement of, dramatic change.

The hell with the damn swing voters--they are the problem. Make up your damn minds. Fascism or safety and prosperity. Oh, sorry, that's pretend tough guy vs. rationality. Deep fried horseshit on a stick or three squared you can pick?

Kerry's got to be real change. Can't imagine what they were really thinking with this one--how narrow a group in biz really gives about Chavez? Oil co's, some bankers. But I can't imagine, at least in terms of appeal to votes, going to get a blip. So, it must be money or crazy stupidity. He does need money as today's reports show. Send some, maybe he'll chill.

If they court Lieberman, I'm going to Costa Rica. I'll be at the closest bar tot he airport named after parrots. I'll buy ya one.
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debsianben Donating Member (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
232. How Clear Does it Have to Be?
Chavez is democratically elected by the people of Venezuela. He tries to carry out some fairly mild reforms to redistribute wealth and increase his country's independance from the Empire.

In revenge, the Empire collaborates with right-wing military officers and businessmen to carry out a coup against him, putting him under house arrest and installing the head of the business federation Federcameras as President. The Bush administration immediately recognizes the coup-plotters as "the legitimate government of Venezuela. Sadly for them, the majority of the population (which overwhelmingly voted him in) is outraged, and after a few turbulent days of demonstrations and rioting the elected government is restored.

The Bush administration continues to try to do everything it can to destabilize and ultimately get rid of this inconvenient elected government (inconvenient because it sides with the will of the Venezuelan people on some key questions) through funneling money to the opposition to run a sleazy recall campaign (a huge number of signatures were simply forced, many of the rest according to independant observers were collected from workers who were then given slips verifying they had signed to give back to their bosses so they wouldn't be fired) and even through running military training camps for Venezuelan exiles in Florida. The Carter Center naturally sides with the imperialists and their local stooges, but the Venezuelan judiciary actually sides with what the rules of democracy are supposed to be (unlike the U.S. Supreme Court in a similar situation :-( ). The handful of oligarchic media barons that run the private media do everything they can to drum up opposition to the elected government (which in turn, being so far from the slanders about "authoritarianism" that they take no action whatsoever against the libels routinely made in the private media, turns in desperation to supporting local pirate radio stations), but it manages to maintain a thin hold on power.

So.......what does the great "liberal" savior Kerry do? He steps into this volitaile situation with a clear signal that he sides with Bush and the coup plotters against the elected government of Venezuela. After all, best not to alienate corporate America by implying that he isn't concerned with the Empire's drive to take over Venezuela's oil feild.

What can you say? Class act.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #232
236. A class act indeed
What can you say? Class act.

A class act expected from members of his class.

:)
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debsianben Donating Member (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #236
240. Well, yeah...
I mean, beyond the fact that in the 21st century the two major parties are siamese twins joined at the wallet anyway (and this was no less true when it was a poor Arkansas kid who made it to the top running the show), the fact that Kerry was Bush's Skull-and-Bones frat brother at Yale does help drive the point home.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
251. Kerry is gong to lose spouting garbage like this
I am glad to see so many DUers outraged by his assinine and corporo-fascist flavored statement

I just dunno anymore.

My worst fears about Kerry are materializing before my eyes.

Oh Canada
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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
255. I hate to say it but this proves Nader's point
there doesn't seem to be much difference between the parties, at least when it comes to oil and Latin American interventionism. The oil companies have them bought and sold. This is very discouraging.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
265. I may disagree with President Kerry on several points.
But there's no way in Hell that I'll vote for the other guy (either directly or indirectly).

We'll fight this out after he's elected.

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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
278. Again, one foot in the Bush quagmire
Why does anyone dwell on the shortcomings of a Bush target for elimination, a Bush target for coup and subversion of democracy.

Why? Because in general there are valid points consistent with the highest(or at least the most determined) values of American foreign policy. Also, after the "foreign friends of Kerry" gaffe, there are certain people Kerry should at least distance himself from.

So while Kerry resolves this dilemma to his satisfaction as with the Iraq War vote, another potential victim nation of the Bush oil machine is left twisting in the wind. Should Bush then go "over and above" the scope of Kerry's criticism, Kerry would seem to be partly compromised.

I do not always agree with Kerry's choice of words, especially the tough ones leveled at Bush victims who are not models of democracy, but who stand exposed on a relentless and brutal hit list.
Maybe he won't lose votes in 2004 over this, but I don't think polishing Bush's big stick is the way to stop him. Moderation of a Bush action is practically impossible. Giving him countless inches to convert to miles is a needless gift.

Referendums and recalls are simply coups by other means at present and the issue of our continued monied and personnel interference in those "democratic" processes is an uninvestigated crime. Now we are left to guess that once Kerry becomes President and calls off our dogs AND Chavez starts letting up from self-defense of his people then this disagreement will be swiftly and easily resolved. Again we have to wait to kick Bush out to stop the hijacking of hypocritical two-faced policies. Then it would make sense to be tough bargainer to help repair the oil price damage to everyone's benefit(except the warmongering oil corporations).
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
295. Of all the blundering, arrogant, stupid moves Kerry could make right now..
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 11:06 AM by Merlin
this one really tops them!

What in the hell is he doing? This is completely idiotic.

Apparently the Kerry people are so out of touch with their base that they think they can get away with turning it off while they make some kind of feeble outreach to the Lieberman wing of the party.

This is beyond clumsy and dumb.

One can only say that he's trying to get himself into a position to criticize Bush when the Bush effort to overthrow Chavez succeeds. He thinks this is the way to ingratiate himself with conservatives who oppose Chavez, and to build cred for the time when he will need to be critical. But instead he's doing exactly the wrong thing.

If there are things to be critical about Chavez for, he should emphasize--very prominently--his extreme opposition to any effort to remove Chavez by force. I see such an assertion NOWHERE in the Kerry statement.

This gives a green light to Bush to continue it's coup campaign. Kerry has voluntarily neutralized his ability to be critical when that happens.

Look for a coup to proceed within the next week or so.

I am really, really worried about the competence of the Kerry campaign.

(p.s. -- This has Carville's handwriting all over it. Remember about a year ago, Carville went down there to work for the rightists.)
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #295
377. Yep
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:06 PM by vidali
Agree this has the Carville imprint. I hope Kerry gets better input.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
297. I am so angry that I can't see myself voting.
I would never vote for Nader or any other Independent who has so far run for President.

The cabal running Bush is hell bent on owning the world and it doesn't mean peace because peace is not profitable enough for the big money people especially fancy weapon-toys makers and sustainers. Peace allows the little (non-gun buying and using) people to get ahead.

Kerry may not have the people's interest in mind.

So far the Republicans should be happy - the people might vote Bush out if the votes aren't stolen, but they may get everything they want with Kerry.

I hope my initial suspicions are very wrong.

Someone please place a link to the good things Kerry has done. I need to straddle this fence and have him prove his mettle. I can't see myself not voting.

We are at a crisis point in our country...we can't have two of the same.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #297
300. My reasons for voting are less than noble.
I just want to see republicans with egg all over their little red faces. I want to see this little weasel out on his ass like his daddy. That was the first time I voted in the US. I have to admit it felt good to see poppy get his ass handed back to him. I'm also trying to convince people (especially Hispanics) to vote. Other than that I can't help you out. I'm having a hard enough time myself. I'm sort of taking the Chomsky approach to the whole thing.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #300
334. Maybe I am missing something, but I can only see two ways..........
to coordinate efforts in any group. One would be by intimidation by force and the other would be through popular support of the group. I would rather even assume a facade of the later rather than endorse any part of the former.

The chance to reclaim real democracy is my motive. You got to know it is easier to get things done by threatening one group to get another group to do something. Check out milligrams, fear is powerful motivator if one is foolish enough to fall under its spell

http://www.cba.uri.edu/Faculty/dellabitta/mr415s98/EthicEtcLinks/Milgram.htm
Stanley Milgram's Experiment

.
."Obedience and Individual Responsibility"

Stanley Milgram, a psychologist at Yale University, conducted a study focusing on the conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience. He examined justifications for acts of genocide offered by those accused at the World War II, Nuremberg War Criminal trials. Their defense often was based on "obedience" - - that they were just following orders of their superiors.
In the experiment, so-called "teachers" (who were actually the unknowing subjects of the experiment) were recruited by Milgram. They were asked administer an electric shock of increasing intensity to a "learner" for each mistake he made during the experiment. The fictitious story given to these "teachers" was that the experiment was exploring effects of punishment (for incorrect responses) on learning behavior. The "teacher" was not aware that the "learner" in the study was actually an actor - - merely indicating discomfort as the "teacher" increased the electric shocks.

When the "teacher" asked whether increased shocks should be given he/she was verbally encouraged to continue. Sixty percent of the "teachers" obeyed orders to punish the learner to the very end of the 450-volt scale! No subject stopped before reaching 300 volts!
(snip)
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #297
315. It's one thing to get my vote, it's another to get my respect.
And with the latter comes physical and intellectual labor which is probably more valuable than my vote.

Kerry already has my vote.

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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #315
320. I never said anyone had to like him.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #320
323. I totally agee with you.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
337. Why does anyone question Kerry's integrity, rather than Chavez'?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 02:01 PM by draftcaroline
What do you actually know about Chavez or Venezuela, fellow DUers, that you would sooner doubt John Kerry than Hugo Chavez? It is Kerry whom the vast majority of Democrats have chosen as their presidential candidate. They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, Kerry doesn't deserve it---but Hugo Chavez does?
What brand of brain shampoo are we using, if Hugo Chavez has your vote of confidence instead of John Kerry?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #337
338. I actually know a shit load about Chavez and Venezuela.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 02:24 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
I keep up with the situation as well as anybody can. My best friend calls her family every week down there and she keeps me up to date. Her and her family's opinion is very different from yours. I also know a ton of Venezuelans here and grew up with some in Puerto Rico. The majority of Venezuelans I've met throughout my lifetime have some things in common. They are well off financially and are not just elitist but also racist. Even some of the ones from working class families have shown the same traits because one day many expect to be up there with the rich. That's some of what I know from my experience.

I also know that there was a massive strike that crippled the economy. That strike was organized by high and middle class sectors. But somehow now that the economy is fucked up. Chavez did it.

I question any US politician given their record in supporting thugs and criminals (both rethugs and Dems). Ask any US politician about Alvaro Uribe in Colombia. He's supposed to be a great guy, right. People might also want to know that his daddy was drug dealer and his campaign manager is involved in processing cocaine. Uribe is also very much involved with right wing death squads. That's the type of leader we support.

How about Carlos Andres Perez and other Chavez predecessors. How great were they for the country? Ask yourself that. I'm not questioning Kerry's integrity but US involvement in every Latin American country is always full of duplicity democratic rhetoric and anti democratic realities.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #338
341. Great, Smirky...
If you're that well informed, I don't mean you, obviously. For you I'd have other questions, like how do you feel about a referendum as allowed by law? If it doesn't go Chavez' way, is that proof of US manipulation? If it doesn't happen at all, is that indicative of US manipulation or Chavez' manipulation?
BTW, I know a s*** load of very poor people who are elitist and racist. Utterly illiterate to boot. They are Hugo Chavez' intended elite. He will refine their crude hatred into something that works for Hugo Chavez.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #341
342. The opposition are Bush pals. They are no friends to
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #341
343. You asked a question. I answered. I asked you some.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 02:40 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Now you're asking more without answering? Fine you win. Chavez is evil incarnate. He's Fidel Castro's tool and he will destroy Vanezuela and all of Latin America. There, is that satisfactory? BTW how are Chavez's people racist again? He's the one being called nigger and indian this or that. I've heard it with my own ears from the poor oppressed Venezuelans with vacation homes in Miami.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #343
346. Here ya go

You asked 2 questions. (I thought they were rhetorical.) "How about Carlos Andres Perez and other Chavez predecessors. How great were they for the country?"

They stank, for the most part. Venezuela's great in spite of its leaders, and greatness in a country cannot be transferred to its leader.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #346
347. Chavez is the closest thing to a real president that they've had.
Many of the poor in the slums will agree with that. Look at Carmona's cabinet (which lasted what, a couple of hours). Which one represents the broad spectrum of Venezuelans? Think what you will. This discussion will go nowhere real fast. I hope things work out for them with or without Mr Chavez. At least he tried to share the wealth.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1136

PS That's fine let's not address US involvement at all. It's just such a none issue. It never is in L America anyway, right?
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #347
353. Hmm
Well, IMO he's the closest thing to...oh never mind. Tried to share the wealth? Pff!
But at last we agree. It's Latin America, so it never really becomes an issue. Not while there's oil in Araby.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #353
429. On what are you basing your opinions?
And does the answer to that question also answer the question, 'why don't you answer Smirky's questions?"?
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #341
392. Does the US let foreign countries fund opposition parties?
Maybe you should do a little checking up before start pointing fingers. There are plenty of links and information just on this thread if you can't find any. Please, many here have been following what was going on over there for quite awhile. Dems from California know all to well about the kind of shenanigans they pull with this recall referendum ploy.

Many fraudulent signatories to the Venezuelan referendum means it should be thrown out, for it and the people who proffered it are not even acting in in good faith. The referendum is not a school room quiz that can have wrong answers,it is a official state document that has the potential void an already agreed upon issue.

To decide a issue as monumental as that of a presidency of a state with fraud is the most egregious thing that could happen in any democracy. If you support any of it, you might as well be supporting * , because that basically what happened here.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #338
349. Speaking of IMPEACHED former Vene. Pres. Carlos Andres Perez
I must bring back, for one return appearance, the excerpted timeline concerning that big fave with the Venezuelan elite:

1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the oil industry.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the central bank.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1976-1996 The political establishment has accumulated a growing control over the country’s assets.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1989 Carlos Andres Peres took office and instituted bold reform plans. Increases in fuel costs and government reforms in Venezuela sparked extensive rioting and looting with hundreds of people killed.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1)(WSJ, 5/22/96, p.A-16)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1993 Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was impeached.
He was later charged with misusing $17 million security fund for election debts and a lavish inauguration.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)

1996 May 30, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was convicted on corruption charges. He was sentenced to prison for 28-months and fined for misappropriation of $17 million from a secret security spending fund.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)(SFC, 5/28/97, p.A12)

1996 Aug 1, The tax authorities increased the general sales tax to 16.5% from 12.5%. There has been a 108% rate of inflation over the last 12 months. Transparency Int’l., a Berlin base nongovernmental anticorruption organization, rate Venezuela as the most corrupt country in the Western hemisphere.
(WSJ, 8/9/96, p.A11)

1998 Apr, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez (76) and Cecilia Matos, his longtime mistress and personal secretary, were charged with depositing funds in US banks that far exceeded their earnings as public officials.

(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1998 Nov 8, In Venezuela a leftist coalition led by Hugo Chavez, the Patriotic Pole movement, won a majority in parliament. The Democratic Action and Copei parties won most of the 23 governorships. Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez won a senate seat in Tachira. Corruption charges against Perez were later dropped due to senatorial immunity.
(SFC, 11/10/98, p.A10)(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1999 Oct 21, In Venezuela corruption cases against 2 former presidents, Carlos Andres Perez and Jaime Lusinchi, were reopened.
(SFC, 10/22/99, p.B4)

Timeline continues to December, 2003

http://timelines.ws/countries/VENEZUELA.HTML


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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #337
340. Are you questioning Greg Palasts integrety?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 02:33 PM by Classical_Liberal
He uncovered the vote purge in Florida and this is what he says about Venezuala

http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm?subject_id=20&subject_name=Latin%20America

I am hoping this is just a dumb move on Kerry's part, though I sure hope he reads up more.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #340
345. Could you answer any of my questions instead of suggesting
that I know anything whatsoever about that man's integrity? I don't know more than a couple of web pages about him, and that isn't enough to make such a determination.
Which is sort of my point. People are condemning Kerry for criticizing Chavez, and they are doing it on the basis of very little information, given the profound political significance of the judgment.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #345
348. I answered
I think Kerry is uninformed. There is a whole shitload of info on Palast's site. You just choose to ignore it. So be it.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #348
352. So be it.
Yes, I'm confident I can ignore it. This issue cuts too close to the bone and I shouldn't be discussing it at all. Bad for the arteries.
Peace
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #345
424. You want to know about Greg? Read his book, "The Best Democracy
Money can Buy." He is one of the heroes who emerged from the Florida debacle when he fought and investigated for us. He is one of the finest reporters (if not the finest reporter) of all time and I suggest you go see him next time he speaks in your area. As for Greg's integrity, he regularly risks a lot just to bring out the truth. That's more than I can say for most of the people on this board.
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #337
356. I respect that you have family, etc. from Venezuela from the poorer
areas, but this doesn't make anything you've said okay with me. Why? Because many whom I know are from this same area in the US and have no clue about the TRUTH of *. Many will vote for * and can't or won't see the truth of the matter of how he and his cabal have affected their very lives and the future of their children and/or grandchildren.

I appreciate your trying to offer your experience and opinion, but from what I see it doesn't make Chavez evil or bad. Those same people here could very easily be backing * because they only watch Faux News and believe in what they see, read, or hear (if they are able) rather than having the time to research and check it out via the internet and various news and/or public info services.

It rings hollow to me. :shrug:
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #337
374. Your logic is useless because you don't document...
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 08:52 PM by higher class
the story here is that the U.S. is trying knock off another duly elected President and take over the oil. They have spent a bundle of money so far and have manuevered strenulously and in the sewer.

Do you side with the right wing? Does the will of the people mean nothing? How can you justapose this to our country with and earnest and documented attempts to persuade.



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Fire_Wire Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
344. Not so simple..!
Too many post like this is a black and white issue. Venezuela has lots of problems very few of them having to do with us. Chavez ain't no Dem or Rep so love him or hate him but be tolerant of others. :)
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Ctuser Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
357. Kerry is Bush lite there is no choice maybe in 08
the corporations own both partys the best we can hope for is crumbs from either one
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
361. Just for the record.
I am deeply dishearteded by John Kerry's statement.

If Chavez is "detrimental to our interests", I have to wonder what our interests are.

It appears the corprotocracy will continue unimpeded. :(
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #361
379. Castro having buddies in high places in other countries is detrimental
to our interests.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #379
387. Castro has no bearing on US interests.
He simply isn't the boogie man anymore.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #387
389. Glad to know
that Castro is now an American ally.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #389
403. Trying to find another way to charge someone with being a "commie lover?"
You're getting very close to the edge. Anyone can understand your meaning.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #403
404. I myself have never been impressed by one liners not even by Bruce Willis.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #389
411. When did I say he was an ally?
You must be listening to RW pundits too much! :)
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DennisReveni Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
363. Read on.
http://tompaine.com/blog.cfm/ID/9942
So John Kerry, the foreign policy whiz, has asked Spain's new prime minister not to withdraw that country's troops from Iraq. (At least he hasn't gone as far as the Republicans, who call Spanish voters "appeasers" of terrorism.

The new Spanish leader, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, who's pretty much endorsed Kerry (he's called on American voters to dump Bush, just as Spain's voters dumped the Bush-allied Jose Maria Aznar), notes: "Maybe John Kerry doesn't know this—but I'd be happy to explain it to him—that my commitment to withdraw the troops is prior to the tragic events of the 11th of March a week ago. My promise is before that. So my commitment is my commitment."

In fact, Zapatero is happy to keep Spain's troops there, as long as the United Nations is in charge, instead of the American Empire. It could be a perfect opportunity for Kerry to attack Bush's chaotic, America-first Iraq policy. But no. Kerry, chin jutting out, has to show how tough and "American" he is. Well, here's a line for Kerry's speechwriters: "I am in total agreement with Mr. Zapatero's call to have the United Nations take over the process of putting Iraq back together. President Bush has bungled this almost beyond belief, and Iraq is sliding towards civil war on July 1. We can't hand over sovereignty to the hapless collection of losers appointed by the Bush administration to the Iraqi Governing Council. I hope the Spanish prime minister will be a committed partner to the rebuilding of Iraq under UN auspices."
http://antiwar.com/orig/pilger.php?articleid=2089
A myth equal to the fable of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction is gaining strength on both sides of the Atlantic. It is that John Kerry offers a world-view different from that of George W Bush. Watch this big lie grow as Kerry is crowned the Democratic candidate and the "anyone but Bush" movement becomes a liberal cause celebre.

While the rise to power of the Bush gang, the neoconservatives, belatedly preoccupied the American media, the message of their equivalents in the Democratic Party has been of little interest. Yet the similarities are compelling. Shortly before Bush's "election" in 2000, the Project for the New American Century, the neoconservative pressure group, published an ideological blueprint for "maintaining global US preeminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests." Every one of its recommendations for aggression and conquest was adopted by the administration.

One year later, the Progressive Policy Institute, an arm of the Democratic Leadership Council, published a 19-page manifesto for the "New Democrats," who include all the principal Democratic Party candidates, and especially John Kerry. This called for "the bold exercise of American power" at the heart of "a new Democratic strategy, grounded in the party's tradition of muscular internationalism." Such a strategy would "keep Americans safer than the Republicans' go-it-alone policy, which has alienated our natural allies and overstretched our resources. We aim to rebuild the moral foundation of US global leadership . . ."

What is the difference from the vainglorious claptrap of Bush? Apart from euphemisms, there is none. All the leading Democratic presidential candidates supported the invasion of Iraq, bar one: Howard Dean. Kerry not only voted for the invasion, but expressed his disappointment that it had not gone according to plan. He told Rolling Stone magazine: "Did I expect George Bush to f*** it up as badly as he did? I don't think anybody did." Neither Kerry nor any of the other candidates has called for an end to the bloody and illegal occupation; on the contrary, all of them have demanded more troops for Iraq. Kerry has called for another "40,000 active service troops." He has supported Bush's continuing bloody assault on Afghanistan, and the administration's plans to "return Latin America to American leadership" by subverting democracy in Venezuela.

Above all, he has not in any way challenged the notion of American military supremacy throughout the world that has pushed the number of US bases to more than 750. Nor has he alluded to the Pentagon's coup d'etat in Washington and its stated goal of "full spectrum dominance." As for Bush's "preemptive" policy of attacking other countries, that's fine, too. Even the most liberal of the Democratic bunch, Howard Dean, said he was prepared to use "our brave and remarkable armed forces" against any "imminent threat." That's how Bush himself put it.

What the New Democrats object to is the Bush gang's outspokenness – its crude honesty, if you like – in stating its plans openly, and not from behind the usual veil or in the usual specious code of imperial liberalism and its "moral authority." New Democrats of Kerry's sort are all for the American empire; understandably, they would prefer that those words remained unsaid. "Progressive internationalism" is far more acceptable.

Just as the plans of the Bush gang were written by the neoconservatives, so John Kerry in his campaign book, A Call to Service, lifts almost word for word the New Democrats' warmongering manifesto. "The time has come," he writes, "to revive a bold vision of progressive internationalism" along with a "tradition" that honors "the tough-minded strategy of international engagement and leadership forged by Wilson and Roosevelt . . . and championed by Truman and Kennedy in the cold war." Almost identical thoughts appear on page three of the New Democrats' manifesto:

As Democrats, we are proud of our party's tradition of tough-minded internationalism and strong record in defending America. Presidents Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D Roosevelt and Harry Truman led the United States to victory in two world wars . . . eventually triumphed in the cold war. President Kennedy epitomized America's commitment to "the survival and success of liberty."

Mark the historical lies in that statement: the "victory" of the US with its brief intervention in the First World War; the airbrushing of the decisive role of the Soviet Union in the Second World War; the American elite's nonexistent "triumph" over internally triggered events that brought down the Soviet Union; and John F Kennedy's famous devotion to "liberty" that oversaw the deaths of some three million people in Indo-China.

"Perhaps the most repulsive section of book," writes Mark Hand, editor of Press Action, the American media monitoring group, "is where Kerry discusses the Vietnam war and the antiwar movement." Self-promoted as a war hero, Kerry briefly joined the protest movement on his return from Vietnam. In this twin capacity, he writes: "I say to both conservative and liberal misinterpretations of that war that it's time to get over it and recognize it as an exception, not as a ruling example of the US military engagements of the 20th century."

"In this one passage," writes Hand, "Kerry seeks to justify the millions of people slaughtered by the US military and its surrogates during the 20th century suggests that concern about US war crimes in Vietnam is no longer necessary . . . Kerry and his colleagues in the 'progressive internationalist' movement are as gung-ho as their counterparts in the White House . . . Come November, who will get your vote? Coke or Pepsi?"

The "anyone but Bush" movement objects to the Coke-Pepsi analogy, and Ralph Nader is the current source of their ire. In Britain, seven years ago, similar derision was heaped upon those who pointed out the similarities between Tony Blair and his heroine Margaret Thatcher – similarities which have since been proven. "It's a nice and convenient myth that liberals are the peacemakers and conservatives the warmongers," wrote the Guardian commentator Hywel Williams. "But the imperialism of the liberal may be more dangerous because of its open-ended nature – its conviction that it represents a superior form of life."

Like the Blairites, John Kerry and his fellow New Democrats come from a tradition of liberalism that has built and defended empires as "moral" enterprises. That the Democratic Party has left a longer trail of blood, theft and subjugation than the Republicans is heresy to the liberal crusaders, whose murderous history always requires, it seems, a noble mantle.

As the New Democrats' manifesto rightly points out, the Democrats' "tough-minded internationalism" began with Woodrow Wilson, a Christian megalomaniac who believed that America had been chosen by God "to show the way to the nations of this world, how they shall walk in the paths of liberty." In his wonderful new book, The Sorrows of Empire (Verso), Chalmers Johnson writes:

With Woodrow Wilson, the intellectual foundations of American imperialism were set in place. Theodore Roosevelt . . . had represented a European-driven, militaristic vision of imperialism backed by nothing more substantial than the notion that the manifest destiny of the United States was to govern racially inferior Latin Americans and east Asians. Wilson laid over that his own hyper-idealistic, sentimental and ahistorical idea . It was a political project no less ambitious and no less passionately held than the vision of world communism launched at almost the same time by the leaders of the Bolshevik revolution.

It was the Wilsonian Democratic administration of Harry Truman, following the Second World War, that created the militaristic "national security state" and the architecture of the cold war: the CIA, the Pentagon and the National Security Council. As the only head of state to use atomic weapons, Truman authorized troops to intervene anywhere "to defend free enterprise." In 1945, his administration set up the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund as agents of US economic imperialism. Later, using the "moral" language of Woodrow Wilson, John F Kennedy invaded Vietnam and unleashed the US Special Forces as death squads; they now operate on every continent.

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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #363
367. Its depressing isn't it?
Well said, alas it is looking awful.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
366. My Letter to John Kerry
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 08:14 PM by Chicago Democrat
Subject: Your Attack on Chavez - A mistake

Dear Senator Kerry,

I love you and will support you and I would never criticize you in public, but your Chavez attack speech; we LOYAL Progressive Dems are having a hard time understanding it.

Consider backing off this. I greatly appreciated your support of President Aristide. Personally I would like to see the recall go through and have Chavez win; he could be a real ally and the oil is important. Anyway..if your interested in seeing passionate people debate you Venezuela speech (and they are pissed off) read this....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=438272&mesg_id=438272

I just want to see progressives and labor parties and socialists win throughout the world. Power to the people I say. Chavez is no angel, but he gave you his open hand and you kicked him when he is down.

Please consider backing off your anti-Chavez retoric. Please do not repeat the negative comments at least.

I love you Senator Kerry, I can't wait until January 20, 2005!

Sincerely,

Chicago Democrat
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #366
368. You can link directly to the Kerry campaign email on this thread
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abracadabra Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #368
376. did it!! SENT KERRY my EMAIL--ANYONE ELSE SEND ONE ?
no kiss ass ending in mine though...just cold hard to the point facts.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #376
395. Yes. Mine is not DU material. No minced words in it. n/t
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #366
384. Good Job! Bravo C.D.
some in here are "worried" that some DUer's are "commies". Mention the word Socialism and they freak out.

I think what those of us who see no "evil" in a democratic socialist party are simply asking for our leaders to REMEMBER the little people. Even the playing field. Don't concentrate sooooooo much on wealth while neglecting the poor, the widows, the aged, the fatherless, the working poor, healthcare for every single human being who walks on this soil, and ensuring JOBS. PLAY FAIR. ACT ETHICALLY. SERVE JUSTLY, among other things. Remember all they learned in Kindergarten: IT'S GOOD TO SHARE

We could have a decent life for all, if all are willing. Those with all the talent can gather their riches, it's okay. Those who cannot reach that pinnacle need to be treated with respect and be allowed to keep body and soul together and when they stumble, there should be NO SHAME in asking for help.......AND GETTING IT.

This country is becoming sooooooo stingy and judgmental. Conservative/moderate Dems are starting to remind me of the Religious Right!
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
373. Dems + Repugs = 1 party ?..........OMG!!!!......
With the biggest scandal in history.........

Both sides are turning out to be rotten to the core.

Or is the Skull n Bone party as deep and saturated across this
gov't?

I'm afraid the latter is more the reality knowing that their
emblem (skull n bones)is on the tail wings of our fighter jets.

Kerry vs. Bush = No Change



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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #373
375. I feel the same with one difference...
I'm not waiting to be convinced otherwise in regards to Bush/Cabal.

I am waiting to be convinced otherwise in regards to Kerry.

Waiting.

Waiting.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
378. If the opposition takes control of the government back,
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:08 PM by w4rma
many people will probably lose their livelihoods, imho. I'll bet we'll see mass firings of former-Chavez supporters if the opposition takes control back. Union busting will be back in vogue, also. The opposition may also confiscate the land of many folks who have gained land/property under Chavez.

Imho, for free trade/fair trade to work without destroying the living standards of Americans, folks like Chavez will have to be supported in their countries - folks who will work to build up the living standards of their citizens.

additional information:
Venezuela Government and Opposition Accuse Each Other of Political Firings
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1236
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x440420
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gate of the sun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
385. we are doomed with this NED bullshit.
Kerry seems to be right in line in the imperialist agenda. This is not what I want for my country. I'd prefer to be wrong about Kerry but apparently what I suspected is going to be true. No one here can say "we've been misled" he's letting you all know now where he stands. The future looks pretty bleak many I know many are still going to stand behind Kerry hoping it won't be so bad. This country is doomed.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #385
396. Thanks for expressing my thoughts on the subject.
Doomed.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #385
417. This is upsetting, but not surprising.
It seems that Kerry is falling into line, assuring TPTB that he will defend their interests, and therefore a viable alternative to *. Venezuela as the world's 6th largest oil exporter seems to be next on the map of control of the world oil resources. Another nail in their coffin; talk of partial switching to Euros.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #385
418. You got THAT right.
Even if Kerry does win, we've still got a Herculean task ahead of us.

This is insanity.

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Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
399. Note to Kerry:
KISS: Attack Bush.
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AmericanErrorist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
400. What's the record for most posts in a thread?
I think we may have it!
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #400
401. 1187
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Merrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
405. axiom illustrated...
The US supports democracy and its "democratically" elected officials as long as they're amenable to its economic agenda (i.e. subordinating the common good of its people for the common good of the wealthy). Kerry might be a slight shift back to the left by a populace just barely conscious enough to be alienated by the extreme right, but the overall platform is still moving inexorably right... into oblivion.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
408. Good election politics
an expedient distancing that prevents Bush from painting him as some of of commie symp.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
412. Venezuelan "exiles" in Florida are taking responsibility 4 Kerry's views
Published: Tuesday, March 23, 2004
Bylined to: Curtis Reed


Tampa-based Free Venezuela, Inc: Our goal is regime change in Venezuela

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:39:42 GMT
From: Curtis Reed aguaventura@netzero.com
To: Editor@VHeadline.com
Subject: Error: It was Venezuelans in TAMPA

In David Coleman's article "Venezuela's relations with USA to improve if Bush 2 loses election this fall" you stated that Senator Kerry's statement regarding the Chavez regime amounted to "Parroting anti-Venezuelan Miami Herald propaganda."

In fact, the Kerry position statement was the result of the effort of Venezuelan-Americans from the Tampa area who contacted his camp and conducted an education campaign to be sure that Kerry understood what a threat the Chavez regime represents to US interests, regional stability, and how it endangers democracy across the hemisphere.

We have been working constantly over several years to establish good contacts with our representatives, and it was through those contacts that we made direct contact with John Kerry and delivered to him the message you will find below.

We are now in the process of publishing more Op-Ed articles, organizing round table discussions about the Chavez regime, and speaking out on nationally syndicated radio shows. Let there be no confusion: the "Miami Mafia" had nothing to do with this. It was the result of hard work by US citizens and Venezuelan expatriate organizations like FREE VENEZUELA that we influenced Kerry, and we will continue to push US policy until we achieve our goal.
(snip/)

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16656

They are completely close to the Cuban American National Foundation in South Florida, which held a massive anti-Chavez parade on the very day the entire REST OF THE WORLD was conducting massive anti-Iraq war demonstrations last winter.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #412
420. Congratulations on ending this thread properly
and showing that Kerry is working in the best interests of Venezuela.
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abracadabra Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #420
422. if that's what you got out of this thread you need some glasses bro
NewYorkMass man you obviously see what you want to see,
As far as sticking up for the rights of the non weathly average citizens in Venezuela, Kerry is way off on the right corporate end of the spectum and this thread proves it.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #422
426. "Free Venezuela" not too keen on Chavez
so Kerry shares their concern.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
419. kick
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
423. Any DU'ers up for signing a petition to John Kerry?
John Kerry must retract his statement on Venezuela / John Kerry debe retractarse de sus declaraciones sobre Venezuela

View Current Signatures - Sign the Petition

To: John Kerry Campaign Headquarters
Vea una versión en Español de este documento al final.

We demand that democratic candidate for President of the United States, John Kerry retract his position on Venezuela, and get better informed about Latin America before issuing such biased opinions. We warn Kerry of not underestimating the support of progressives, who in the past election voted for candidates such as Ralph Nader, in the face of a democratic platform that clearly failed to meet their expectations.

Please call and/or send emails or faxes to the Kerry headquarters, demanding that Kerry be more informed about Venezuela and Latin America so that he will not commit the same errors of prior administrations whose thoughtless actions have increased anti-American sentiments throughout the region.

Background

The democratic candidate for President of the United States, John Kerry, published a statement on his web site this past March 19 (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0319d.html), stating his position on the political situation in Venezuela. In this declaration, Kerry relies on inaccurate information and repeats views identical to those of the Venezuelan opposition to democratically-elected President Hugo Chavez.

Without offering any evidence, Kerry, follows the line of the Venezuelan opposition, accusing Chavez of aiding the Colombian guerrilla forces, permitting narcotrafficking, undermining democratic institutions, attempting to impede a possible recall referendum on his mandate, and of implementing policies that are detrimental to US interests.

Chavez is a President who has been elected twice by clear majorities in democratic elections, and who, at this time, still enjoys one of the highest levels of popularity amongst Latin American leaders. Chavez’s policies have earned him the support of millions of progressive and liberal voices throughout Latin America as well as in North America.

Kerry’s recent statement makes it clear that he has taken the side of the right-wing Venezuelan opposition, an opposition which is unequivocally responsible for the political instability in Venezuela due to its failure and refusal to accept Chavez as the President of Venezuela, despite his clear support by a majority of Venezuelans proven through numerous electoral victories.

The fact that in his statement Kerry suggests Bush has not put enough pressure on Chavez, completely ignores the ample evidence of the millions of dollars the Bush administration has given the Venezuelan opposition through the National Endowment for Democracy. Such substantial financing has been used numerous times in attempts to oust Chávez from office through extra-constitutional means.

Additionally, it is evident from Kerry’s Statement on Venezuela that he clearly was appealing to the right-wing Cuban-American vote in Florida, and not the progressive and liberal vote that forms the base of the Democratic Party.

It is almost unexplainable that Kerry, as a Democrat, maintains almost the same positions as Bush and his ultra-conservative cabinet. Many in the progressive community had hoped that Kerry could bring a fundamental change to the arrogant US government foreign policy towards Latin America. Statements such as Kerry’s lead us to believe that there may be little change in that policy, and unfortunately, mistrust and resentment towards the United States in Latin America would probably continue to grow as a result.

http://www.petitiononline.com/kerryven/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Found this at AP's link. Thank you, AP! :hi:
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Aquarian_Conspirator Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #423
425. Good Work!!!
I just signed, and now I'm going to get as many people as I can to sign!
I want this over 1,000 by the end of tomorrow.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #423
427. This is PERFECT. Thank you! Just signed it. n/t
I'm 694.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #427
431. Jeez, the petition is moving right along!
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 03:42 PM by JudiLyn
I posted it here right after I signed at #132. This happened in only one day! It's up to 1253 now.

Whenever petitions of value are posted, freepers will stick their gnarley noses in and try to screw them up, but their posts are always cleaned out before the petitions are submitted, anyway, so it's a waste of their time.

Thanks to you and antiquarian_conspirator for signing.

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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
428. Moving to GD...
This is no longer LBN...
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
432. seems there's a petition to be signed
-
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