There is NOTHING Christian about *

Think about it. Can you name ANYTHING Christlike he has done? This should be blatantly obvious to just about anyone, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever pointed this out to a fundie. Just ask them to name anything Christlike * has done. I'm interested in what the reply would be.

:eyes:

I totally agree with you about Bush. But the fundies are too backwards to figure out that * is not in fact "Christlike" he's a blasphemist.

It drives me nuts when my parents tell me how much they like Bush because he is "lead by God". I wish they would quit listening to his speeches peppered with religious references and just watch what he does and doesn't do for once.

to get orders from God are in a rubber room!

I had a Methodist Pastor tell me she thinks Bush is a blasphemist, and frankly I concur. I like that description of him, and I use it often in certain circles. :P

BTW, Bush is a *cough* Methodist. :hi:

he totally preaches the message of Christians:

Intolerance
Prosecution
Death Penalty
A fetus is more important than a living thinking woman
Using scripture out of content to support oppression
The poor are not societies responsibility
When you're elderly you're no longer useful
Use of fear to control
AIDS is a disease God uses to punish, no need to interfer with the divine.


I hope you understand, I know he's not Christ like, but I stand by my assertion that I've not in my lifetime met a person who claimed to be a Christian that did not exhibit all the traits above. They all use scriptures to validate their views at the expense of human dignity. I'm fine with being damned to hell if it means I don't have to share space with so called Christians, because I don't really want to be around them. Instead of worrying about everyone else's lives, I wish the so called Christians would do something about the homeless children, poor children, abused children, exploited children, African children, children used for prostitution in America, and then when they've spent all that time and energy on fixing that horrible problem, move to the elderly. I think we are the only culture that actually abandons our elderly to homes, I think most cultures actually take care of their parents as an honor thing, why does America shove their parents in homes? How about good health care for the elderly? How about compassion for someone who's too feeble to work but must to make ends meet? Why don't these Christians concentrate their energies on just these two issues instead of worrying about gay rights or abortions? Until then, I have no use for them. I do not share the same God as so called Christians, it's unfathomable to me that my God hates as much as the so called Christian God.

You must live in the "Bible Belt."

The mainstream churches are concerned about all the things that you are.

...that will respond to your post soon.

I hope you understand, I know he's not Christ like, but I stand by my assertion that I've not in my lifetime met a person who claimed to be a Christian that did not exhibit all the traits above.

never? I'm always skeptical of people who say this.

well, then here's your first time. I'm a Christian, and I do not share any of those traits.

;) :hi:

Are not flambuoyant about their beliefs. They don't talk about what they do. They just do. You'll find them in alot of places.

In a soup kitchen. In a food charity. They're at health clinics. All these places they donate their time. Of course, athiests and agnostics are also in these places and you can hardly tell them apart.

A church is hardly the place to go if you want to find a real christian.

this is exactly what I mean, real god like people never would come out and say, "I identify as a Christian," they just are what they are...good people.

I will say I am a Christian because I do greatly believe in Christ's message of kindness, empathy for others just because they are sentient beings, and self-sacrifice but I almost cringe at the label because it implies a sort of country club mentality which I abhor.

Christ spoke many times of people who were flambuoyant about religion and he did not have very much good to say about them.

I'm sure it pissed them off a bit. :)

Is the most conservative Christian I personally know who actually follows the Christian teachings of love, empathy, acceptance, etc., in an intelligent way, while respecting what this country is supposed to be about. Makes me proud of him, although we disagree on some things. He's a big believer in separation of church and state- "Just because I believe it, doesn't mean the government should impose it on everyone." Love it. I wish more Christians were like him!

I hear ya...

However, there are some Christians who do those very things. While I disagree with their views toward women, I like it that many Catholics, for example, in my community, help the homeless and the elderly. One group is risking action by the city because they have opened their home to people who would otherwise be living on the streets.


Bush* and his cabal, however, are not like this, of course. They like the label of "Christian" because it gives them power and prestige. They also like the label because it allows them to do horrible things while still making their followers think they are good people. They are like the Romans.

The whole of the bush family, every one of them, is not, has never been and will never have one neuron worth of religious/spiritual energy in their beings. These people pander to their fundie base because primarily it's an easily exploitable and conditional base after all, while all they worship and find holy is at the altar of money.

Sorry, I digress from your question.

that should be good enough for any upstanding Fundie.

Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusions of their own minds."

Luke 12:15
Then he said to them, (the crowd) "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." (Sound like Bush proselytizing?)

Matthew 5: 9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

I am proud to call myself a Christian, but I am careful to distinguish my beliefs from what the theocrats pass off as Christianity nowadays. I plan on doing a much more exhaustive compilation of Scripture over summer break, which I will distribute throughout the freeperland that I live in. I expect it to be several pages long, though; their heads might explode!:evilgrin:

Edited to close quotation marks.

the last couple months, this is exactly what i am doing. out loud in face, i challenge bush's christianity, to mine, a democrat who is going to vote for kerry. not one yet has challenged me. yet when they do i am ready, lol lol...........piece of cake this one

btw, i am not a believer in identifying someone a christian or not. not my job. it does go along with everyone leaving bush alone with 9/11 til he called to all that he was running on 9/11 and that opened all up to say, k lets look at 9/11

they talk the talk but . . . . . .

Me: Not too many Christians are Christ-like (or even try to be).

faith. But, there are many exceptional/liberal/progressive Christians.

http://www.tcpc.org/index.html

http://www.tcpc.org/resources/library_book_studyguides.html

song entitled.."They dont make Jews Like Jesus Any More"..

cranky old farts like peter and paul behind...

they are in church every Sunday. Not a single one of them would stop to help and injured stray animal. They are always complaing about how lazy the homeless are. They cheer on the war. I don't have a freaking CLUE WTF they learn in church, I really don't.

The wife actually cares a lot about stray animals. The husband only cares about Rush Limbaugh and George W. Bush. We don't talk much.

And I don't live in the traditional bible belt. I live in the bible belt of California, which pretty much covers the foothills and part (or most) of the valley.

and a liberal and the two seem to dove-tail together quite nicely. Jesus would have been considered quite the radical liberal today.

Not all Christians are horrible people. I do know of many who do not actually follow Christ's teachings but just go to church each Sunday. I don't attend church, but I strive to follow Christ's teachings every day. The teachings that tell me not to judge, that tell me to love my fellows, to forgive, to not lust after wealth, etc.

there are a billion Christians-not one good one in the lot? Incredible-I understand you feel you are being tortured by fundies-this country is portraying all Christians as rethugs and patriotic and if you are not on board you going to hell-i am a Christian and i hear the same insidious pressure-but if you are a liberal don't judge from the same false construct of the right-people are not groups-they are individual

they are as PHONY AS THEY COME.

My take on christs teachings, before they got all Romanized:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
Love thy neighbor
Love thy enemy
Forgive, forgive more
"Brotherhood of Man"

To me those are the core of his teachings. Kind of a KISS principle. Love + empathy + acceptance + nature = God

Most Taoists, Buddhists, Sikhs would concur to the "rightness" of those statements.

Many athiests, agnostics, jews and muslims would agree as well.

Are they then Christians? What if they believed those things without knowing they were teachings of Christ?

I don't go for the divinity of christ, communion, chatecisms,
heaven, hell, apostolic succession, saints, madonnas, or churches in general (at least not those with a "sit and be preached to" congregation). To many "god fearing, church going" christians, I am a heathen.

I don't go for the divinity of christ, communion, chatecisms, heaven, hell, apostolic succession, saints, madonnas, or churches in general (at least not those with a "sit and be preached to" congregation).

I don't understand a lot of it. Mainly, I don't see that believing or not believing in any of these things helps anyone to get through life any better. Heaven, hell, saints, and the whole bit seem irrelevant to real life. I suppose neither of us will ever "get it" about Christianity as long as we can't see the importance that Christians see in those kinds of things.

The catechism is basically the statement of what a particular church believes in. It gets you into their club, and then you know that you have subscribed to all the same beliefs as the others around you in the congregation. From then on you are relieved of the burden of thinking for yourself. You know that you can blindly accept whats being preached to you. I think it does make life easier, makes blind faith easier, greatly limits the choices you have to make for those big questions in life.

Heaven and hell are the carrot and the stick. Saints replace the natural desire to have local and purpose specific gods. The Madonna is the "mother goddess" which was common all over under various names. The Trinity takes the old Jehovah god - the primordial schizoid violent gods of nature; the Christ - man-as-god, and the "Holy Spirit" basically the divine in all of us, the "Brotherhood of man" and squashes it all into one three-headed godhead - polytheism within monotheism. This stuff is the "romanization" I mentioned - added onto Christianity for the purposes of the roman empire. I don't think Christ had any of those things in mind. They are for controlling occupied and annexed populations. They make it easier to convert the various pagan beliefs because you have their mother goddess, their storm god, their evil god all in one handy package.

The communion I'm less sure of. If you look at gnostic beliefs, then it's Christ trying to express that "god" is like tao - in and of everything you see. Another take on it is to break the Christianized Jews from Judaism where Blood is reserved for god. Now they are drinking the blood of Christ. Some call it ritualized cannibalism. I think it was meant to extend beyond just some sacramental bread and wine - to all the food and drink as a constant reminder. If the air is "of god" maybe you'll be more careful before you pollute it etc.

It seems to be pattern. Some wise man explains the basics of civilization - you have to be fair to each other and respect that you must all share things like air, water etc. Then someone comes and tacks some other agenda onto it in order to promote that agenda. Later someone else subtracts something so they can add something contradictory.

I have two favorite places to find god. One is a stretch of stream, simple rocks and water yet also infinite currents, eddies, splashes, a micro-ecosystem and a microcosm. The other is a baby, you look at him and when he detects that you are looking he looks back, smiles, lights up - connection - it makes you smile and light up yourself and in turn the baby lights up more and writhes in ecstasy. Wordless, thoughtless connection.

in most philosophies because in the end we are all studying the same thing. The human condition. At least that is this Taoist, Atheist, Unitarian Universalist, Humanists opinion. :)

You kinda walked into this problem. He certainly may not be a representation of what you believe a Christian to be. But history as well as recent representations of Christianity suggest that nearly any behavior can be exemplified by a person claiming to be Christian.

Unfortunately there are too many people that have been victimized by individuals claiming to have a holy right to be hateful. This comes from the very notion that right and wrong can be a definitive concrete idea handed down by an authoratative source. As long as there is a claim that there is such a source there will be people claiming to understand that source and expressing it in the form of their own personal biases and predjudices.

I respect your particular beliefs as I suspect them to be one of tolerance and community. But this is merely what you believe Christianity to be. Thus the cry no true Christian may ring hollow on some individuals ears. Just a friendly suggestion from your friendly neighborhood atheist.

You articulated my thoughts on the matter perfectly.

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I've personally heard of several.

Just ask them to name anything Christlike * has done. I'm interested in what the reply would be.

Well, they would probably cite a few things that you have missed, but also there are many threads of Christianity out there. Some of the more "mainstream" churches do not necessarily see much that is Christian in the man, but the "mainstream" congregations are losing members these days and the Pentecostals, Charismatics, and such are gaining members. These are the congregations who tend to see Christian behavior in Bush because (IMO) their focus is more on proper belief than on proper behavior.

Also, especially with the televangelist-types, their faith is a media event complete with the big music, the big production values, etc. Going to services is getting to be like going to a rock concert in a lot of ways. Nobody judges too much as long as it's fun and sort of overwhelming. The Bush landing on the aircraft carrier had a lot of that show-biz about it. Same thing with the plastic turkey. I am sensing this at some level, but maybe someone more versed in cultural studies can develop the thought... or else tell me I'm full of hot air.

;-)

sorts. Complete with a discussion board and recommended books.

For those interested in exploring... ;)

http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=idx

http://www.tcpc.org/

http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8

Peace