What is with all the religious intolerance at DU?

These are just a few of the comments from one thread. On another thread, which I hope had died a quick death, someone I normally respect repeatedly refered to Christians and others who follow a religion as cultists.... it was sickening

Enjoy:

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To bad
The face of Christainity in America is intolerance. As long as the Christain community allows the Falwell and Roberts to act as its voice, then you will reap what you sow.

(the all christians are alike attack)

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Atheists are tolerant of tolerant theists.
Atheists invective directed at Christainity is the result of intolerance on the part of the most vocal of the Christain community.

(another version of the "all Christians are alike" attack)

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$cientology (to which someone replied) $ue me .

(nuff said)

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and it isnt...as opposed to you god-pods...who must have religion
to justify your god concept
Other than that you'd just shutup about and pray to your god in the closet, like the Book suggests

(the STFU or I will call you nasty names, bully attack)

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I prefer to just call them what they are: victims of a con.

(the you people are to stupid to think for yourself attack)

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Us atheists DO search for a meaning to life.

The thing that separates us from the religious folk is: we don't make one up.

(the "if it is in my head rather than yours, it must be real" attack)

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Still no proof of your god bullshit , and yet you whine whine whine

(yikes)

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Yet sangha...an ardent god-pod......

(good old fashioned personal attack based on a religious belief)

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I find the idea of a fictional religion funny in a sort of redundant way

(the side lateral arabesque attack)

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I don't need no stinkin' religion!!

What kind of tricks can your dogma do?

(the "if it's religion, it must be dogma" attack)

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Atheists are tolerant of tolerant theists.

Atheists invective directed at Christainity is the result of intolerance on the part of the most vocal of the Christain community.

(from this I can only conclude that it would be okay of me to be bigoted against atheists since what I see here is the most outspoken of atheists......?)

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you're the intolerant god-pod BC

You ignore the postive voices

Does that mean you ignore the positive voices in Islam? Or, is their religion ok with you?

(the "I will assume and accuse you of bigotry against another Religion to justify my bigotry against you" attack)

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Hey...that cross is disrespectful...get rid of it

(huh?)

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too much to ask for you theists to respect
anti-theists
we can't dis your beliefs, but you can dis our belief that your belief is bullshit.
pot. kettle.

(I hope this person is joking.....we have to be tolerant of your intolerance? Whatever)

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Folks, I truly do not care what you believe. I will even say that you could be right, at least for you. I just don't understand why it is important for you to be so disrespectful of others. My mother the Atheist would be shocked and disapointed.

I just wanted to get a feel for how many religious people we have here on DU, as compared to non-religious people. It wasn't to get people bashing each other for their religious beliefs.

Some folks have been badly hurt by bad religion and strike back every chance they get--unfortuneately, the ones they hit here aren't likely to be the hurting kind.

A lot of us have pretty much given up getting involved in religion threads--the "defenders of the faith" can be just as hurtful as the opposers. After a while, you just get tired of being bashed from both sides.

Some here obviously feel like an embattled minority and are acting accordingly. I am sure there are plenty of others who don't even crack these threads.
Not your fault friend

because I consider myself an Agnostic/atheist, with a lot of animosity toward organized religion in general. But I think that there are a lot of good people who are involved in these organizations (an example is the Episcopal church here in america, with the recent flap over Bishop Robinson... not everyone who voted for him is gay, and yet he was still confirmed because people of consience in that community realized that he was the best man regardless of his sexuality) and I refuse to knock someone who considers themselves a believer of a particular brand of belief. Some of the vitriol has been really hateful, and it's embarassing to people who are truly live and let live. I guess it's a twist on the "Love the sinner, hate the sin": Love the believer, but hate the organization.

to better represent their numbers we atheists too have to provide more than just the vocal vitriol of the angry atheists. Even though we may understand why they are angry we have to work to make the presentation of views we may share more palitable for everyone. We have to take responsibility for the representation of our views and not let others speak for us.

will only tolorate so much of this madness.

I agree - there seems to be fewer areas in which otherwise liberal folk seem so intolerant.

I've gone rounds before trying to explain to those who are not Christian that perhaps they don't know the whole story - reminds me of Senator Dick Durbin's recent comments that he really 'appreciated' Protestant and Mormon Republican senators explaining Catholic doctrine to him, a practicing Catholic.

If those who seek to smear Christianity really would like to learn more - check out a link such as this:

http://www.tcpc.org/

The Center For Progressive Christianity and scholars such as Bishop Spong from Maryland and John Dominic Crossan are no friends of right-wing Christianity...but give quite compelling statements in favor of most everything the average liberal Democrat believes is right...based in the original teachings of Christianity - before the bureaucracy of Rome took over.

Reviling all of Christianity because you hate Jerry Falwell makes about as much sense as reviling all Democrats because you don't like Joe Lieberman.

**this is not bashing.....it really isn't; I don't usually open the 'religion' threads......eeek, so I am trying to tread lightly here...

You assert: "I've gone rounds before trying to explain to those who are not Christian that perhaps they don't know the whole story ..."

Maybe I know all of the story that I, in my best judgment, need to know. Or maybe you don't know the whole story. Who is really to say??? We will all find out in the end -- that's for sure. But it's THAT attitude of "well, you must not understand where we are coming from...if you did, you would feel differently" that just makes my case for NOT exploring Christianty. You can say that in the nicest possible way but it smacks of disrespect and intolerance and an "us vs them" mentality. Why would I want to adopt that into my life?

At any rate.....as to politics and law in the United States of America -- there is no room for religion. The beginning and the end of that story is nicely outlined in the Constitution: separation of church and state.

Don't use that to justify attacking people for being religious. I belong to several organizations that attempt to keep church and state separate.

I am not BASHING anyone. But I might start on other grounds!

My reference to the sep of church and state is in regard to the original post about WHY things get so ugly on DU in re to religion by trying to say that it doesn't BELONG in the political world! MY OPINION whether you agree with it or not. sheesh

I didn't say anything to YOU dear Cheswick about ANYTHING having to do with YOUR religion or YOUR activities or YOUR organizations....... I know nothing about you and I hope it stays that way. In fact, this whole thread was just a BIG ass setup by you to start yet another futile discussion about religion...YOUR religion. gee, thanks!

Newsflash, it isn't all about you!

Nice attack. I was only saying that this thread is not about separation of church and state. Bigotry can always find an excuse.

"Don't use that to justify attacking people for being religious."

That's a parental COMMAND......'don't you do X!!!!" followed by an inaccurate accusation saying that I am now attacking people for BEING RELIGIOUS. Spell it out for me, please. WHERE did I attack hellorient about HER religion? No where. I just told her why I wasn't joining up with her crew and why. I couldn't give a damn about whether she is religious or not. How is that bashing HER for what she believes. I say......good for her...I am glad it works for her, but her condescension and assumptions about what I might believe or what I might KNOW or not know is just plain rude.

You asked why there was all this religious intolerance on DU....... Heck, I'd like to know that as well. Thread after thread after thread about religion.

I'm a he.

:-)

Thought I saw someone make reference to you being a "she".

I have a friend who honestly thought she didn't know any Christians because the people in her everyday life weren't preaching to her. I think she expected us to all wear a honkin huge cross and talk sanctimoniously on every subject. Sad

and the constant ways you guys 'slip' 'god' into conversations

it gets old, thats why we athiests get tired of the intolerance of our views from the religious people.

"God" so rarely slips into my conversation...and a number of Christians I know.

My wife, also a Christian, constantly complains about the amount of religious artwork in her parents' home...I guess I'm still hoping for an acknowledgement of diversity...and realization that some Christians may be helpful in specifying the targets in combatting intolerance.

I stand ready to acknowledge that there is an incredibly diverse representation of Christianity both in the world and here on the forum. I welcome anyone that is ready to defend the walls of seperation and fight for social justice.

Christianity - before the bureaucracy of Rome took over."

Had it not been for the bureaucracy of Rome, Christianity would not exist today. It was the Roman Catholic Church that kept the original teachings of Christianity alive for the first millennium and a half, and it continues to do so today. Moreover, all churches develop a bureaucracy once they have more than a few members. Those who want to find the original teachings of Christianity can find them in the Catholic Church, despite its bureaucracy.

so that means you are intolerant of the people who are intolerant of intolerance?

just tired of stupid name calling and black and white thinking

Religious Intolerance is an unjustified attack at anyone's religion, verbal, physical, or mental.

People will be just as dogmatic in regards to Christianity as they complain Christianity is dogmatic it'self. I tend to hear the same rhetoric in regards to Christianity over and over and over again. Not all christians are the way they say they are, just as what my friend said (I do not share her views) Athiests are narrow minded biggots.

Now, I happen to know differently on here. There are many many athiests on here and not all of them are biggots or narrow minded at all. When any religion preaches dissent towards another, it must be very careful that they themselves are not showing that very value which they condemn.

As a proginator of a religious unity event for the State of Iowa called "The Summit," I realize the importance of such negativity. Christianity has done things badly in the past, but so have the rest of us. Now, I feel it should be known that I do not claim affiliation with any specific religion and pride myself on being an extremely eclectic form of paganism which believes in the inherant truths of all religions but come now, statements such as were posted above are hardly going to do anything to advance Unity.

Christians have been a conservative force for a long time, but I believe that they simply see the light, they will begin to come around, just look at the Gay Bishop - what a huge development for homosexuals and liberals alike. Please, follow the olde democratic tradition, preach tolerance rather than intolerance, breed love rather than hate, show compassion rather than dissent.

in the name of religion, but so have many generous, compassionate, loving acts. I personally believe I am a spiritual being as much if not more than a physical being. I also do not accept anyone elses definition of God. I have been searching for my truth all my life. Showing hate of someone for their beliefs rather than their actions make you as bad as the far right wing fundies. I think everyone needs to find their own truth and I respect everyones search as long as they respect mine.

Many atheists believe the world would be a better place without religion. That's all it is.

I'm an atheist and I share the above belief. I'll spare you all the reasons because I'm sure you've heard it all before. I used to be very intolerant of religion. Now I ask myself, "What's the point? Religion isn't going to go away. Might as well try to get along."

So from a tolerant atheist to a tolerant theist, I'm sorry you are catching so much flack for your beliefs on this board. Isn't there something in the rules saying we have to be tolerant of religious beliefs? You may want to check that out and alert the mods the next time you find religious intolerance on this board.

Tolerance and open mindedness is the key.

and us reacting.

The pukes dish out a bunch of crap about something (blow jobs, religion, gay marriage, Kobe, Laci, terra; the list goes on and on and on!), and "we the people" take up the alleged debate about it OR fight amongst ourselves about it. Religious intolerance is just another puke talking point delivered to the people courtesy of Rove.

And we fall for it over and over and over again!

The in-fighting and divisiveness among liberals will not end unless and until we ourselves define our own issues.

We seem to be victims of propoganda.......but we don't have to be.

I'm sorry, but that's the only thing that comes to mind. People who require religion do so because of a weakness. I don't fault them, but I just can't relate.

I wouldn't call it intolerance. I'd just call it a different opinion.


bocadem

It's an argument that goes on and on....but the ancient Christians were radical dissidents...as are a number up to the present, such as MLK, Jr., Gandhi, etc....I am quite happy to be allied with such weakness.

Gandhi and MLK, Jr. were weak, just as Gandhi was weak with respect to eyesight, etc. That does NOT mean that they were weak in a holistic sense. By the same token, an atheist is not necessarily strong in a holistic sense.

Stupid one issue discussion

And you attibute that to "weakness" (but no, you don't fault us for being weak, no!)
I do not condemn those who are materialists and see no reality beyond their 5 senses; neither do I judge them to be deficient in some respect. I would ask the same, at least in how I am treated.

how is calling someone names a simple difference of opinion?

PS...when people state that they are the holder of "truth", no matter what "truth" that is , I wonder how they are different than Falwell.

Ah, in a bigotry thread, it's nice for others to make their positions clear so we don't have to call them out.

the need to make oneself feel superior to others.

What do you care what someone else believes if they don't bother you? Why do you feel the need to point out psychological deficiencies?

Liberal Christians are routinely dismissed as fools or sheep here. Evidently our faith prevents us from being as miserable and full of hate as some and they deeply resent us for that. If their lives are filled with rage and anger, so should ours.

Considering the infantile level of discourse on their side, I'll be happy to stay a "God-pod".

when you read atheists' posts too, not just the ones claiming the existance of a 'god'

I am neither miserable, nor full of hate, and I do not resent religious people. I also do not understand the religious perspective, and see it as a crutch. I don't consider this to be an infantile level of discourse

of religion's intolerance of atheism's intolerance of..................
:-)

I have made one of the comments above.

Normally, I am an agnostic who is fed up with "atheist" arrogance, and I defend religion.

However, I do think there is a difference between a religion and a cult. Most faiths are not cults. I hate to see the two confused. I do attack cults, but not religions.

See sources such as:

http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult

They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse
God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be
THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.


HOW THEY DO THIS

1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or
position of authority given by God.

2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance
regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and
exalting their own group, leader/s and work.

3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members
loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire
calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon;
being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital
part of the mind control process.

4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to
the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked);
signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive
methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed;
selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of
their "ministry".

At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take
up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell
literature and tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This
gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money.

5. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its
teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the
group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for
themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is
also a vital part of the mind control process.

6. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private
lives of members. This control can be direct through communal
living, or constant and repetitious teaching on "how to be a true
Christian" or "being obedient to leadership". Members will look to
their leaders for guidance in everything they do.


7. Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity
distinction and no paid ministry class - that they are all equal.


8. Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged.
Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an
emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission.
This is vigilantly maintained.

9. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in
some way. This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members
(including family) under the guise of looking out for their
"spiritual welfare".

They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception) or
give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.

10. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may
be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that
involve their lives or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by
this.

Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by
other members with coercion to get them to return to the
group.

As a confirmed skeptic, I abhor the abuse of the term "cult" by agnostics who should know better. Really. Cults are about intimidation. The group I criticized has been demonstrated to have done just that. Do the research.

of christianity to me.

Cults, all of them.

You betray reason when you cannot or will not make them.

Back to philosophy class with you. You offend reason.

offend reason.

Please go back to school.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

....I have no interest in a god or gods.

Please care enough to read what people say. I do.

Distinction is distinction. Learn to do it before you claim the mantle of reason.

you obviously might find yourself more at home in the repug party than in the party.

Respect for the poor, equal and just treatment of all peoples, a judgment against massive accumulations of wealth...little things like that.

n/t

and I don't need religion to believe them

Nor would I ever tell you you had to shut up about your non-belief to stay in the same political party with me.

My faith and my politics are complementary--each sheds light on the other. If anything, though, it is my religion that prods me to a more liberal, inclusive political POV more than vice versa. which is about as much as I need to say about my faith in this forum at this time.

nice misrepresentation

There is a difference between mixing religion and politics and realizing we don't live in a neatly compartmentalized world...where religion doesn not impact politics, politics does not impact religion.

My Christian congregation is small but filled with liberal Democratic activist types - a former city council member, the Republican who was one of the hosts of the Dean meetup last night..and is swiftly shifting allegiance, and a board member of one of the key Democratic activist groups in my area.

I just would like those who take large sweeping swipes at Christianity to understand that we feel you are attacking us as well...and it can have the impact of driving some of those on the borderline away from liberal activism and voting patterns, because their identity as Christian is very important to them.

Be assured...we are continually fighting to take the microphone away from Falwell, Robertson, etc...but it gets very tiring when those we agree with on so many other things refuse to listen if they get the "whiff" that we may be Christian.

It's so refreshing to speak with some Europeans on this type of topic...becuase it seems accepted there that individual Christian churches and denominations can be powerful forces for liberal activism...they DO understand there is no longer a monolithic Christian force.

In order for a religious person to be a democrat, we can't defend our religion we must simply sit back and accept the attacks from anti-theists?

Sorry but I disagree.

it's really sad actually.. I have a hard time tolerating such negativity towards someone because of their religious beliefs (or lack of).

These topics always end up as disrespectful attacks and I have found myself coming to read posts less and less because of it :-(

did you hear about the Catholic church? A document instructing priests how to cover-up for pedophilia or other sex crimes

did you hear about Rick Santorum? He has advocated that homosexuals be treated like scum of the earth, all because of his "belief" in some crap book written forever ago by religious nuts!

did you hear about the US Congress, so afraid of the image of not being god-pods that they RUN out to the capitol steps to assure their constituencies that they'll leave "under God" (a Repuke wingnut addition) in the Pledge of Allegiance?

do you see my problem with you believers?

The other thing (of course) is your intolerance of those who do not share your opinion about sky fairies. It's not enough that people don't believe and you scorn them for it, but if they offer an opinion that is scornful of their treatment for not believing...THEN they're "intolerant".

You can not post one comment by me that is intolerant of your Atheism or anyone elses.

some of which I mentioned above?

Why do people who believe in god think Jerry Falwell is a man of "God"?

Why do people who believe in god believe they have the right to dictate morality to other people?

When your religion stops intruding on my life and others in negative (sometimes horrifying) ways, then I'll be "tolerant"

Until then I want to hear ALL the believers SCREAMING OUT every day about how corrupt the the religion is.

Sounds like a "purity test" to me. Sounds very moralizing.

You have no idea who is doing "enough", and their actions are not to be performed for your personal satisfaction.

because you people "believe" that homosexuality is bad

I can only judge by actions, and the actions of the people who claim belief in some supernatural power are the most intolerant peopl on the planet.

So...I hope you understand why I don't focus on the good that's done. It's like the USA...oh sure, we help people in Burundi, but we just killed 20,000 Iraqis.

There it IS again.

"You People". As if you have any idea which group I am or am not a member of, or what damage my former religion may have caused ME. Guess what? I'm not religious!

Judeo-Christian faiths have traditionally been very sexist - however, I have heard little indignation about the SEXISM of many religions. I guess sexism is far too entrenched to go on giving a damn anymore, what's the point. That's why so many of these arguments strike me as convenient and mighty phony. Just like few people gave a shit about sexually abused children until a couple of years ago - HOW BLOODY CONVENIENT! Or they don't care about women's rights until it's time to bomb Afghanistan....

It's funny - my ex-Catholic brother rants and raves about the "patriarchal", "woman-hating" church, which is funny, because I had to LIVE with the Catholic "old boys club" and I survived without whining, and he can be a sexist shit anyway. After all, the patriarchal church is more MY problem, not his, and I have better things to do than spend my life whining about the "oppressive" church.

The celtic cross avatar is for cultural reasons - I felt that many of the anti-religion people are, frankly, culturally ignorant and changed my avatar in defiance.

I'm really disappointed in you. I used to admire your posts.

those of you that continue to push their fantasies as reality.

not necessarily a group, but a lot of people here love to bash non-christians for stating our beliefs.

It is easy to state beliefs. Apparently, for some of you, it is far harder to do so without being rude and obnoxious.

and dont really have an opinion either way

"Those of you who..." is still a logical fallacy.

It's called "guilt by association". One of the problems with guilt by association is that it's often never clear what the "association" is. Sometimes, you can be part of the "association" simply by defending others who are "associated" with something.

It's funny - I've always thought that atheists proudly claimed the traditions of the scientific method and reason, but many of them here are apparently unfamiliar with the concept of the logical fallacy.

and the church and the Bible

Do you think that? If you don't, could you kindly explain to Catholics why they're wrong? Don't they use some old book to go by?

those of you that continue to push their fantasies as reality.

That would mean anyone that has faith, because they believe God is real.

not necessarily a group, but a lot of people here love to bash non-christians for stating our beliefs.

Just like people bash the KKK for stating their beliefs.

only atheists dont state beliefs...we challenge you people to answer the simplest question, and you're never able to.

You just brought up SEXISM and you're complaining that I don't have a clue? I keep saying religion sucks and you're here defending WHILE bitching about it.

Makes sense to me! :eyes:

nt

:* aren't you sweet :)

About what 2 people do in their own bedroom. Frankly, the thought doesn't even pop into my head regarding gays or straights.

To me, the sentiments:

-The world would be a better place without religion.
-Homosexuals would have it easy if only religion did not exist.
-Believers are dumb.

Are simplistic and do not hold up on deeper examination.

I've never heard anyone at DU deride a person's atheism, but I have heard atheists deride, insult, and dismiss Christians as less than intelligent humans. Sometimes, I don't think you realize just how offensive some of you are sometimes. I don't hit the alert button because I'm sure my statements are sometimes offensive to other people. That's just the way it goes.

All I'm asking is that you not lump all believers into the same category as Falwell, Robertson, etc. I find those people more offensive than you probably do. I would wager a large amount that you and I have more in common with each other than do I with the Christian Coalition.

Peace.

WE ARE, dammit!!

You assume we aren't, but you do not know where to look.

I DO NOT believe Jerry Falwell is a "man of God"

I DO NOT believe in dictating morality to others or them dictating it to me.

My religion is not intruding on you.

A number of very brave and courageous Episcopalians, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. etc. are SCREAMING OUT against the injustices in their churches

You are apparently only listening to Falwell and his ilk...as in any group, being a dissident and changing things from within is a long, slow, arduous process...and churches, like the U.S. government can change at a glacial pace sometimes with little jumps in change at times.

Seek out and listen to the courageous dissidents...some who are trying to speak on this board today.

The thread yesterday was about Evolution vs. Creationism. Do you think that god made the world out of whatever and 7 days and all that? Or, do you believe that science can do a MUCH BETTER job at determining that, and that some book written 2K years ago may NOT be a credible source of information?

The examples set forth by those that claim a "god" belief (like it or not) are examples of the worst intolerance the world has seen...all under the guise of this "god"? How do I value your "belief" when your people use their belief for ignorance and stupidity? And I'm not talking you, or Cheswick, or Blue_Chill, but you are all members of this supergroup that believe in this deity. Some do good works. Fine. You do good works. Now, leave me alone while I lambaste those people who believe and use their belief to justify their moralistic crap.

And I will join you in the fight against those who use their belief to justify moralistic crap.

:D

Got nothin' against that!

I really don't want to group all believers into a straight-jacket, but these beliefs are the root cause of some of the most horrendous acts perpetrated on man by other men. Until that belief is completely out of governmental policy, I've got to complain about the common belief. (and, yes, I know that Christianity is quite removed from a lot of other religions and faiths)

I'm still not convinced that religion is the root cause of many of the most horrific acts perpetrated on humans. Logically, if you took away religion, you would also take away the motivations for these crimes. In reality much of it is about greed and power.

I'm also not convinced of the religiosity of many of the members in the Great Evil Hall of Fame.

Many of the neo-con and libertarian free-market zealots are ATHEISTS.

Exactly. People are going to fight over resources and land no matter what. People in power will use ANYTHING to get people to fight for them so that they may control the rescources- Race, Ethnicity. Anything to divide people and control the population. Religion is another means of population control.

BUT, there are many of us here who have found our own way to spirituality and who don't consider ourselves to be a part of this abuse and misuse of our faith.

I believe the desire to maintain power is behind those horrendous acts - often when those acts took place the church heirarchy and the government, such as it was, were one and the same - that's why you saw Christian breakaway groups such as the Anabaptists - they were Christians who believed the church had no business governing others...It's the desire to maintain power, just as I believe Stalin's efforts to stamp out religion were motivated by a desire to stamp out resistance, not motivated by atheism.

Seriously--have I ever argued in any way that molestation should be covered up? That gays should be treated badly? That "under God" belongs in the Pledge (or even that the Pledge should be required of anyone, since I don't say it?) Have I ever denigrated someone for their belief or non-belief in the supernatural, preternatural or whatever?
If not--why have you lumped me in with such people? Why are all "believers" trashed as if we agreed with Falwell?

because people who calim to believe as you do (do they?) claim god as their arbiter of values and judgements, and then they become Republican or supporting of other rightist factions. Why is that? Why has your belief in a supreme being created a cabal of sheepthat don't even understand how anti-religious they are?!

I'm not against those that have this belief, but the belief breeds so many inequities and problems that I have to think that this belief is "unsafe" and should be challenged.

LOL--no, the people who get the power tend to be the people that worship the power more than they worship any diety. They use the god idea; one advantage of faith in an afterlife life is trusting that they will get justice eventually (and no, that doesn't mean we stop trying to see that they stop the evil in this life!)

The beleivers who end up at DU are more likely to have been fighting the Falwells, the Cardinal Laws, the power-grubbers that infect and inflict religion. We just don't do it on this political discussion board or make a big show of it.

but its your people who are the problem, yet I'm "intolerant"?

Maybe you folks should get in the face of those assholes and tell them they are sinners and will be judged for their sins. See, I dont see campaigns and crusades against religious ignorance, so I have to assume that its ok with other Christians.

Oh, and you're not in power? Are you white? Do you live in America? Do you go to church? Yep, you've got a lot of power.

Hell, I'm an atheist. You see how much power we have.

Because most of the fighting takes place within...religous groups are about as happy to court public controversy as are political parties.

Many Christians do constantly get in the face of other Christians...read the news stories from the Episcopal Church gathering.

Sometimes the battles are not advertised...because a number of liberal Christians really do not believe in consigning individuals to hell...that is a big difference of opinion, by the way.

But rest assured, we are fighting...I posted in the first place because I feel that blanket attacks include me...but go right ahead and attack specific targets. You are exactly right, they need to be confronted and attacked.

Numbers are dwindling. Churchs are desperate to avoid negative attention. Infighting is just the sort of thing they want to keep hidden. Unfortunately this is the position of the more reasonable clergy. The more extremist members are willing to take it to the streets. They will shout their intolerance to the public. They become the face of the church.

I do not envy you your dilema. But if you do not champion your beliefs and shout down your own vocal minority we have no way to see you any other way. If you dislike the hatred the espouse then join us in working to thwart it openly and vocally.

Quit whining.

Love,

a female atheist

whining about hatred emanating from "tolerant" people because I have to put up with their stupid beliefs? The same stupid beliefs that cause so many other problems?

Now, wait, you're an atheist? I thought you were in the church. You used to believe in god but now you dont? What changed your mind?

...except for weddings and funerals since I was a teenager, in the eighties.

It just lost its meaning and power for me, is all, and stopped making sense for me.

But I don't try to argue with those who have faith. Faith is not supposed to be about logic or reason.

Any more than the nastiest misogynists are "your people" because you're male. I don't blame yo for their sins--please don't assume I approve of the assholes who simply profess to believe in something similar to what I do. I ask to be treated as an individual, not as a member of a group. I'm Maeve, not "you people."

I do get "in their faces", but since you're not at my church, you wouldn't see that. And don't tell me about my power--I have four kids who constantly let me know I'm not even the boss of them! :P

:D

The people who believe are the ones in power, and they're the ones causing problems with their beliefs. Whether you instruct against intolerance and anti-religious behavior is irrelevant. The church needs to quell the "believers" who teach and preach the problems. Not speak out against...quell...shut them up and tell them they haven't graduated from Christian (or religious) school.

Now Maeve...if you're a Christian, then that would be a LARGE chunk of our country. So, hmm, the Christians have been in charge for years and years and years....and we end up with George W. Bush! I think its time to blame religion for the problems of this country. Its true. Religious people make decisions using god as their guide and they make fucked up decisions based on a text written long ago.

Can't you see how unalterably goofy that is?

(OH...your MEN -> MISOGYNY argument doesn't hold up...belief is a choice)

My church and my beliefs have nothing to do with the Catholic Church, Rick Santorum, or support for "under God" in the pledge of allegiance.

It is also a strand of Christianity that does not believe in "sky fairies" either

But yet it is Christian...we fought for the anti-discrimination against gays plank in our town governance, and won.

Intolerance always always begins with lack of knowledge.


I, for one, am very sorry for all harm that Christianity has caused you...help me identify and try to correct those ills...and I can help you identify the positive, if you wish to.

and you can moan about my focusing on the problems associated with the belief, but you already want to talk about something else.

Oh, and just who the fuck put that anti-gay governance into place? Atheists?

are we generalizing a bit?

there are weirdos on both sides...

which is of course wrong.

maybe that's wrong too

who call themselves born-again Christians

Until you get nutcases like that FAR from me, I will generalize all day.

KEEP YOUR GOD OFF MY LAWN!

It hilarious to witness all the religious peoples' intolerance of non religious people, especially when they spin it as atheists being the ones who are intolerant.

Here's an analogy:
If I came in here claiming that I lived in a big castle surrounded by fire breathing dragons and fed by fairies bringing food grown by pixies, I should expect some ridicule. Why shouldn't someone spouting the fantasy of gods expect the same?

O well, this is how they treated those 'round-earth' heretics too.

Let's make a deal, you guys stop bringing up your religion and we'll stop making fun of it. Deal?

that not all believers are the same? Is that too much to fit into your skull?

and his belief is beyond dangerous...you people need to denounce those "believers" that can't seem to get along well with other people.

I don't appreciate being lumped with Santorum, congressional fundamentalists, and pedophile priests. Would you use such stereotypes when discussing race or gender issues?

If holy rollers don't want their beliefs talked about, they should not keep trying to push them on us.

I never create a thread to bash religion, but I will respond when someone tries to push their myths on others or state them as fact.

How does one "push their beliefs on someone"? I'm not really sure. I can only think of one or two people on DU who may have crossed that line.

Stating what one believes is not the same as urging others to believe the same.

And I do object to calling people "nuts" for having spiritual beliefs.

that christianity is a con game, like other religions, then that is not pushing.

Thank you. You made my point.

The intolerance comes from the religious, not from the atheists.

The intolerance comes from the religious, not from the atheists.

sounds like more preachin!

Where did I ever say anyone was wrong for not holding my particular religious beliefs?

for stating my belief that religion is a con.

You even quoted me in your flame-bait post.

The accusation that homosexual people are pushing homosexuality on others by simply identifying themselves and asking to not be smeared, told their weak, etc.

Yes, clearly among the myths of us "holy rollers" is that some of you are tolerant. You aren't. And you don't hide it well either.

But this constant attacking of those that believe that your beliefs are bullshit is getting old.

So is YOUR constant attack on our beliefs.

I thought our party was supposed to be tolerant. But I won't tolerate someone going after my beliefs and saying I am "conned" or any of the other rabid atheist catch phrases.

Thank God there aren't many of you who take this tactic to heart.

an attack on you?

It's not.

Is a victim of armed robbery somehow less of a person because they were victimized?

Is a victim of any other con game at fault?

When people act in good conscious but with faulty information, it is not always their fault. Religion is a powerful con that has been around for a long time. Expressing empathy for the victims of that con is hardly 'attacking' them.

Religion is a con. You are a mark. You've been had.

Relies on either the ignorance or the greed of the victim to succeed. I am neither ignorant or greedy.

I made my own choices in life and was not "conned" by religion.

You are the exact reason why this topic got banned. You are being rude. You are being obnoxious. You are, in short, stereotypical of the worst kind of intellectual arrogance I ever see at DU.

you were conned. Your ignorance is what made it possible. Ignorance can be cured.

You don't have to be stupid to fall for this con, it's been around a LONG time, and it's one of the best-supported con games around. It gets a lot of otherwise intelligent people.

And thank you for the personal attacks, those really help your position.

PS - How is it not 'rude' for you guys to constantly push these myths as if they are facts? It's insulting.

Clearly, this is a difficult concept for you, so let me give it a shot.

If I say I like Dean, that means I have a belief in him. If I say all people who support Lieberman have been conned and are ignorant, that is rude and obnoxious behavior. (BTW, these statements are examples only.)

One is positive and expresses a belief. The other is an attack and there is no place for it here.

I don't care if you don't believe in God or anything else for that matter. I care how you refer to me and the billions of others who believe in religion and God.

Since you can't get past that basic element of human interaction, there is little hope for you in organized society.

That you know what information I received in order to make my decision that I was a Christian...

Could you please share with the forum what that information was?

What, we're not allowed to defend ourselves?

C'mon, DU Christians, let's all make digi happy and sit meekly in the back and let them throw whatever bigoted comments they want to at us.

are not representative of the rest, and tell us what steps are being taken to drive them out of power in the church and in government

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
The Professor

:shrug:

Not every one of my positions is shared by everyone here and i don't take offense to that. I believe things that others don't, and i'm never offended.

I find thread in which people express umbrage and hurt feelings boring, especially when it just goes on, and on, and on. I find all the fight threads about religion boring. But i read as much as i can to learn how other people think.

So, let me get this straight: You are offended and right another long-winded boring post about being offended over a topic that usually turns into a boring flamewar, and I'M the one who should leave when YOU'RE the one so offended. Hmmmmmm! Eminently illogical, wouldn't you say?
The Professor

in the religious mind.

Logic and science debunk the myths, and so they must be shunned in order to perpetuate the con.

Sorry, my God invented science. Science works because of what He did. So I am perfectly OK with science.

Maybe the world didn't take seven days to invent. Who cares? How long is a day to God anyhow?

Maybe the Big Bang started it all. Who knows again? However, who started the Big Bang?

i'll just let that go, as it shows your incredible ignorance.

if there was a god, these threads would not get started.

It's just flame-bait from holy rollers trying to find an excuse to preach their fairy tales.

As far as the big bang, YOU are the one claiming the existance of the magic man in the sky, not me. The burden of proof lies with you. I might as well ask you to prove there isnt a giant lizard growing out of your eye.

Is not always a matter of numbers, it is a matter of experience.

Why would God stop these threads from getting started. Again, my God is tolerant and turns the other cheek. He also invented free will. So I don't see any problems here.

There is no burden of proof on me at all. That's why we call it faith. You have a belief that there is no God. I have a belief that there is one. Neither of us can prove it.

if God created everything (i.e. nothing exists that was not created by God) then there can be NO FREE WILL... think about it

Provide independently verifiable evidence to back up the assertion.

Aren't you reading here. THAT is part of my belief system. You can choose to believe it or not. I don't much care either way.

for logic and religion in many of our minds. An expansive mind can truly take in and value a lot.

takes in enough to recognize that religion is a con game.

Please explain, then, how I'm managing to get a master's in chemical engineering with my illogical mind. I'd love to hear this.

It appears that there is no room for tolerance in the mind of some atheists.

Not every one of my positions is shared by everyone here and i don't take offense to that.

No one is asking that they agree, but that they stop blanket attacks.

Big Difference.

The original post made a strong case that the poster was offended. I merely stated that i think that as one who reads everything that everyone has to say here at DU, such self-wallowing posts are boring.

Somehow, someway, everyone will find themselves in disagreement here. To take offense is unproductive. And to be so thin skinned as to start a thread about being offended is tedious.

Don't tell me not to read them. I read every post in LBN, GD, The Lounge and a couple more forums. Some i find interesting, some aggravating, and some boring. Posts like these are boring.

Agreement or blanket attacks notwithstanding, it's still boring and wastes bandwidth.

And, if you had bothered reading carefully, i also stated that the original thread that bashed religious people was boring as well. Is it too much to ask that you read the entirety of my post before you reply to it?
The Professor

No skin off my godless nose:shrug:

ideals that I find abhorant, doesn't mean I have to tolerate it. Numbers do not equate to whether or not something is right or wrong.

Virtually all the powerful religions here on this planet have slaughtered untold millions for countless reasons,primarily non-belief, real estate acquisition and in the quest for pure power and domination.

More damage is caused by religions, than good is committed; the evil cannot outweigh the good acts, by any means.

I'm not obligated to respect nor tolerate such things. I'll speak my mind freely, and others are certainly entitled to disagree with me. Luckily, in this day and age I won't be hung, drawn, quartered, beheaded, mutilated, raped, torn asunder or burned at the stake for my views.

I believe that the law says that you do have to tolerate religions.

Virtually all the powerful religions here on this planet have slaughtered untold millions for countless reasons,primarily non-belief, real estate acquisition and in the quest for pure power and domination.

Enough with the historical revisionism. Plenty of slaughter has been committed by non-believers and those who claim to be religious but aren't particularly religions.

More damage is caused by religions, than good is committed; the evil cannot outweigh the good acts, by any means.

You need to prove this by hard data.

It is my belief that arrogance has done more damage than any other human attribute.

at the same time you are whining about people being intorant. Is someone going to arrest the people who are being intolrant or are you equivocating?

tad.... let's start with -- the First Crusade that was launched in 1095 with the battle cry "Deus Vult" (God wills it), a mandate to destroy infidels in the Holy Land. Gathering crusaders in Germany first fell upon "the infidel among us," Jews in the Rhine valley, thousands of whom were dragged from their homes or hiding places and hacked to death or burned alive. Then the religious legions plundered their way 2,000 miles to Jerusalem, where they killed virtually every inhabitant, "purifying" the symbolic city. Cleric Raymond of Aguilers wrote: "In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees and even to the horses' bridles, by the just and marvelous judgment of God."

In the Third Crusade, after Richard the Lion-Hearted captured Acre in 1191, he ordered 3,000 captives -- many of them women and children -- taken outside the city and slaughtered. Some were disemboweled in a search for swallowed gems. Bishops intoned blessings. Infidel lives were of no consequence. As Saint Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Crusade: "The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ himself is glorified."

The Assassins were a sect of Ismaili Shi'ite Muslims whose faith required the stealthy murder of religious opponents. From the 11th to 13th centuries, they killed numerous leaders in modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria. They finally were wiped out by conquering Mongols -- but their vile name survives.

Throughout Europe, beginning in the 1100s, tales spread that Jews were abducting Christian children, sacrificing them, and using their blood in rituals. Hundreds of massacres stemmed from this "blood libel." Some of the supposed sacrifice victims -- Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln, the holy child of LaGuardia, Simon of Trent -- were beatified or commemorated with shrines that became sites of pilgrimages and miracles.

In 1209, Pope Innocent III launched an armed crusade against Albigenses Christians in southern France. When the besieged city of Beziers fell, soldiers reportedly asked their papal adviser how to distinguish the faithful from the infidel among the captives. He commanded: "Kill them all. God will know his own." Nearly 20,000 were slaughtered -- many first blinded, mutilated, dragged behind horses, or used for target practice.

The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 proclaimed the doctrine of transubstantiation: that the host wafer miraculously turns into the body of Jesus during the mass. Soon rumors spread that Jews were stealing the sacred wafers and stabbing or driving nails through them to crucify Jesus again. Reports said that the pierced host bled, cried out, or emitted spirits. On this charge, Jews were burned at the stake in 1243 in Belitz, Germany -- the first of many killings that continued into the 1800s. To avenge the tortured host, the German knight Rindfliesch led a brigade in 1298 that exterminated 146 defenseless Jewish communities in six months.

During the 1200s, the hunt for Albigensian heretics led to establishment of the Inquisition, which spread over Europe. Pope Innocent IV authorized torture. Under interrogation by Dominican priests, screaming victims were stretched, burned, pierced and broken on fiendish pain machines to make them confess to disbelief and to identify fellow transgressors. Inquisitor Robert le Bourge sent 183 people to the stake in a single week.

In Spain, where many Jews and Moors had converted to escape persecution, inquisitors sought those harboring their old faith. At least 2,000 Spanish backsliders were burned. Executions in other countries included the burning of scientists such as mathematician-philosopher Giordano Bruno, who espoused Copernicus's theory that the planets orbit the sun.

When the Black Death swept Europe in 1348-1349, rumors alleged that it was caused by Jews poisoning wells. Hysterical mobs slaughtered thousands of Jews in several countries. In Speyer, Germany, the burned bodies were piled into giant wine casks and sent floating down the Rhine. In northern Germany Jews were walled up alive in their homes to suffocate or starve. The Flagellants, an army of penitents who whipped themselves bloody, stormed the Jewish quarter of Frankfurt in a gruesome massacre. The prince of Thuringia announced that he had burned his Jews for the honor of God.

In the 1400s, the Inquisition shifted its focus to witchcraft. Priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they were witches who flew through the sky and engaged in sex with the devil -- then they were burned or hanged for their confessions. Witch hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations. Estimates of the number executed vary from 100,000 to 2 million. Whole villages were exterminated. In the first half of the 17th century, about 5,000 "witches" were put to death in the French province of Alsace, and 900 were burned in the Bavarian city of Bamberg. The witch craze was religious madness at its worst.

The "Protestant Inquisition" is a term applied to the severities of John Calvin in Geneva and Queen Elizabeth I in England during the 1500s. Calvin's followers burned 58 "heretics," including theologian Michael Servetus, who doubted the Trinity. Elizabeth I outlawed Catholicism and executed about 200 Catholics.

Protestant Huguenots grew into an aggressive minority in France in the 15OOs -- until repeated Catholic reprisals smashed them. On Saint Bartholomew's Day in 1572, Catherine de Medicis secretly authorized Catholic dukes to send their soldiers into Huguenot neighborhoods and slaughter families. This massacre touched off a six-week bloodbath in which Catholics murdered about 10,000 Huguenots. Other persecutions continued for two centuries, until the French Revolution. One group of Huguenots escaped to Florida; in 1565 a Spanish brigade discovered their colony, denounced their heresy, and killed them all.

Ukrainian Bogdan Chmielnicki was a Cossack Cromwell. He wore the banner of Eastern Orthodoxy in a holy war against Jews and Polish Catholics. More than 100,000 were killed in this 17th-century bloodbath, and the Ukraine was split away from Poland to become part of the Orthodox Russian empire.

The Thirty Years' War produced the largest religious death toll of all time. It began in 1618 when Protestant leaders threw two Catholic emissaries out of a Prague window into a dung heap. War flared between Catholic and Protestant princedoms, drawing in supportive religious armies from Germany, Spain, England, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, France and Italy. Sweden's Protestant soldiers sang Martin Luther's "Ein 'Feste Burg" in battle. Three decades of combat turned central Europe into a wasteland of misery. One estimate states that Germany's population dropped from 18 million to 4 million. In the end nothing was settled, and too few people remained to rebuild cities, plant fields, or conduct education.

So I stand by my position. I don't know how people benefit from being part of a cult, but I sure see how the masses have suffered for religious fervor. Oh wait, maybe seeing a vision of the virgin mary on a potato chip is something we can all gain grace from?

"My" team???

I AM AN ATHEIST.

But if there's going to be a war, I'll fight against snobbery and arrogance every time, since snobbery and arrogance are what oppressed MY ancestors.

As a practicing Wiccan, I applaud your comments. Fortunatley, my religious beliefs recognize that all religion has as its basis, mythology. It is the one fact that cannot be seperated from religion.

Of course, of all the organized religions in the world, the Pagan religions are apparently the most disorganized.

this diversity thing we're always harping on. Does it only apply to those who think and act just like us?

What about equal rights? Plenty of posters here are quite quick to use perjoratives against our ideals that they happen to find abhorant, redistribution of wealth, the gay adgenda (what ever that is, but you certainly better not speak against it).

What about those ideals? Are they just stuff we talk about but don't really mean?

You won't tolerate them, but insist that they tolerate you? You are just like "them"

You can't go two blocks in the cities of this country without running into some sort of worship center. 'Religious Intolerence'? What a joke...

why are all the atheists pickin' on us? pat robertson uses this line all the time. christians and religions of all persuasions have total freedom and churches on every corner. no one is kicking your door in cause you're a christian.

but it must be a little alarming after viewing today's poll on what religions are represented here. the results showed a very large number of agnostics and even huger number of atheists. religion and politics are being thrown on the floor and chopped up in the opening months of the 21st century. it's going to be very intersting.

either people are respectful of differences or they are not. It is up to you which group you want to belong to.

the holy-rollers would respect us for a change.

Or at the very least call them on it. But please don't assume that all who profess a faith in God/Goddess/dieties of any kind are all disrespectful "holy-rollers". We're not.

since you have to see buildings that are worships center,it is okay for people on DU to be ignorant towards others?

theists are disrespectful to athiests every single day here.

we can't even state our beliefs without being attacked or accused of attacking.

but we can take it, I only mention it because of the hypocritical acts of those preaching tolerance from an intolerant position.

I underwent a rougly 20 post attempt by another DUer (who will remain anonymous, you know who you are) to convert me. I have not attempted to convert anyone to atheism/agnosticism, nor do I plan to. I saw a few posts earlier asking for any examples of intolerance to atheism, well, here's one, the person wouldn't stop trying to convert me, when I believe that I had a more thorough knowledge of christianity than said poster. for what it's worth...

Sorry, but as an agnostic, I don't find that particularly unbearable.

Face it - you want to play the minority card, then I will tell you who also has cultural hegemony : those with access to higher education. Literacy is a commodity in this country. I resent anyone who pats themselves on the back for their "education" and "enlightenment" when so others have no such access. And you-know-who are the folks who do this....

and there are free literacy programs all over this country.

EDUCATION is not beyond the reach of any person desiring it.

Sure, there are a lot of barriers but ultimately.....the libraries are open and full of books. America is full of self-made men. My grandfather, for example. Went to school till he was 14 and was one of the most well-read person I ever met.

Granted.....the repukes are certainly doing a fine job at slashing library budgets. And the repukes are FILLED with Fundies. I *do* make the connection between lack of opportunity and all with the repukes fundies.

In many communities, public library boards are elected...so it is another area to not let those with narrow minds get the upper hand.

I work for a great public library board...and we are well funded!

I take it you haven't deigned to step into a public library lately.

When you grow up with no money, you can speak with authority about the struggle to attain higher education. Snobbery is snobbery, and the educated elites keep moving the literacy goalposts.

The point is that not until everyone has equal educational opportunities can any of us pat ourselves on the back for how "educated" or "enlightened" we are. And that won't happen until education is disconnected from the concept of class mobility.

I really don't need to see Horatio Alger BS on a supposedly "liberal" bulletin board.

But why am I not surprised? I've seen so much ignorance in the past few months here that I'm ready to renounce the party for good. :(

Thinking of leaving the democratic party?

I am sorry......but you need to spend some time in the library reading some more. It's the democratic party that is going to work toward public education for all. The world is not fair -- you are absolutely right. But isn't that why we all come together? To find a way to bring equality to all people? That's what the dems stand for. We don't live in Utopia.....but I dare say that there is an attempt to define what Utopia is and move toward it.

Given your input in this thread showing your grave concern about the inequality in education, I surely hope you stick with the dem party. Cause that's your last hope for something that seems so important to you.


And, uh, yeah, I was at the public library a few weeks ago. There was a group of several homeless people in there ......reading. There was also a totally snobbish rich lady too with diamonds draped about her body. That's a good start on the path to Utopia.

I am one of the least sensitive people here. I am commenting on an ugly trend of ignorance by people who claim to be against ignorance. Maybe you should just avoid certain threads.

I thought I responded to the guy who posted the thread about the religious intolerance. Oh, never mind.

...actually, they don't allow much discussion in the schools anymore, but they should.

The fact that they don't is probably what accounts for the lack of reason in many people's posts around here.

Dog forbid if anyone here ever responded to a post that irritated
them!

Overally, this is the most agreeable discussion forum I've ever seen ("who agrees Bush is bad...me, me, me," yawn).

The whole point of a discussion forum is to stretch your thinking a little and get challenged on things that real people in your life wouldn't dare to bring up. It's a new way of looking at yourself and shifting your views a little.

Its fine to keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out. When a group or belief winds up killing people it may be time to call them on it. When a group or belief terrorize people it may be time to look into ways of stoping them.

Religion is the grand champion of grey areas. In the mind of the adherants they are doing good. Calling them evil bounces off them because they know they are good. However the belief set they adhere to has set them on a path that may be destructive to others.

It is the nature of the human mind that it is pliable to belief systems. Its simply the way we are wired. Some beliefs are benign. Others are not so benign. Tolerance does not mean stupid. Sometimes the respect for a group has to be reconsidered when they cross a line. Do we tolerate the KKK? We acknolwedge their right to exist but beyond that I doubt anyone here respects their ideals.

Unfortunately different people have different measures for what constitutes destructive tendencies. For some it is obvious such as promoting acts of violence. For others it is the perception of destructive social concepts that oppress others.

Add to the fact that the most vocal of any structure tend to be the more extremists within. Then you have conflicts between the fundimentalists of both sides. Though it may bother the less strident to do so if they do not raise their voices and speak for more tolerant ideas they will vanish despite being the majority.

Tolerance is both a boon and a curse. It allows for freedom and growth, but it also allows stagnant ideas to flourish as well. Hatred and prejudice can find ways of exploiting tolerance to enable themself to grow as well. Add to this the fact that tolerance is intolerant of intolerance and thus paradoxical. This gains no end of exploitation on those promoting intolerant positions. Those that blindly adhere to post modern ideology are incapable of stepping up to hate groups that shield themself by using post modern strategies to defeat post modern progress.

Someone is wrong. I don't know who it is but with so many opinions of the world someone has to be wrong. The only truly safe position is to have no position at all. This goes against our very nature and is dangerous as well. With no conceptualization of the world a person becomes lost. But with a concept of the world they begin to seperate the ideas that they find do not fit their view. What one person believes is truth another will see as oppression or worse.

Consider the difference of agends between Christians and Atheists. Atheists believe that Christian doctrine is based on false concepts and suspect history. They seek to promote the discovery of truth by means of applying reason and rational thought. Christians meanwhile believe that there is an immortal soul and that it is a prescious thing which is endangered if one is not brought to Jesus. Both sides pursue their goals out of compassion. Atheists hate to see people held in thrall by what they believe to be delusions and Christians hate the idea that anyone does not come to know the love of Jesus.

In a world concept that envisions an eternity of damnation for not finding its particular truth how can tolerance of other views possibly be tolerated. A society insisting on tolerance in the face of such a belief system will eventually promote disinterest and a social disconnect from the adherants of such a belief.

In pursuing the destruction of hate we are going to find that some systems of belief contain the seeds of hate within them. These may even be belief systems known for love. Love is a powerful motivator and if a belief system can turn that into a motivator to oppress others it becomes very dangerous.

Consider a person sitting in a house. Someone walking by outside rushes in and grabs them and drags them outside saying their house is on fire. This would seem to be an act of kindness. But what if the house is not on fire and the rescuer only believes it is on fire. What of the inverse. What if the house is on fire but the owner doesn't believe it. It takes a strange sense of tolerance to stand outside and watch the owner burn to death. Tolerance is not as easy or clear cut as it seems.

that my beliefs are about to make my brain fall out and that I am held in thrall? Honestly AZ, I am capable of thought, but thanks for your concern.

Can you even conceive that you, like the rest of us, might be wrong?

I appologise. That was not my intent. I was trying to convey that people develop a concept of right and wrong. They apply this concept to the world around them. When you defend a person from hatred you are oppressing the person hating them. Are you so tolerant that you think it is ok to promote the killing of people based on their skin color? Of course not.

I suspect you did not read my post. Again I appologise if you did. But I believe I never said my view of the world was the only right one. I did say someone was wrong and that I did not know who it was. This leaves me in the equation as being possibly wrong.

Sorry if I offend you but claiming tolerance is not an easy thing. It is a difficult road and sometimes even the most strident supporter of tolerance will make mistakes. Its a simple fact that different people believe different things. It cannot be helped that some people think other people are wrong. We cannot know who is right but sometimes we can gain some insite into who might be wrong. Does tolerance mandate that we stand back and allow those who harm society to continue to do so because they believe its the right thing? I hope not. For that way leads to the dark ages and hatred.

However, it is not tolerance of aggressive evangelizing believers that many of us are pleading for--we just don't want to be lumped in with them!
DU believers on the whole are liberal and supportive of the progressive movement in this country. (Those who aren't can get tombstoned!) It's the slams against us, when we are "you people", that is objectionable.

I've been staying away from these sorts of threads for a long time--I find them hurtful. But once in a while, I think we do need a plea for more respectful discourse.

That perhaps Christian beliefs are about as uniform and believing the same thing as Democrats, or Muslims, or African-Americans...

I get so tired of people trying to pin a "rot in eternal hell" belief on me. It's not a part of my strand of Christianity.

I really don't know what a number of atheists or agnostics believe, but neither do I claim to know...I just a lot of claims from others that they know what I, as a Christian, believe because I use that label. I do know you are wrong, because I know what I believe and it does not match your claims about Christianity. There is plenty of Christian scholarship and material that supports my Christian beliefs as I know there is plenty written that supports Falwell. I assume Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims are quite different from each other and each has their own tradition and teachings.

I do not know what you believe as an atheist or an agnostic...and I do not attack it. If I knew more, I might choose to engage you in a conversation about it....but would still not claim authority.

Why do so many claim authority on Christian beliefs...who are not Christian?

I don't know if you have read many of my posts but I do frequently try to point out to my fellow atheists and others that Christian beliefs are widely varied. I try to tell people to find out who the heck you are talking to before you begin to make assumptions. This gets particularly problematic in the Catholic posts because many assum a Catholic is in lock step with the Pope. Its best to find out what the individual really believes before you jump to a conclusion.

Part of the reason that Christianity gets the lions share (ooh, unintential bad joke) of critics is because the structure of their belief system is very aggressive. Christianity is one of the world most prolific evangelical belief systems around. Where most beliefs restrict themself to their own culture or family Chritianity seeks to push itself onto anyone they can reach. Again the wide range of Christian sects means that some are less aggressive than others but most nonbelievers interactions are with the aggressive version. Thus the unearned venom striking the less aggressive Christians is reacted to with anger.

Is not necessarily bad...

I aggressively promote Progressive Christianity in venues where I think it might be heard...just as I aggressively promote the left end of the political spectrum...not a bad thing at all, in my opinion.

To(o) bad The face of Christainity in America is intolerance. As long as the Christain community allows the Falwell and Roberts to act as its voice, then you will reap what you sow.

Too many tolerant Christians let the purveyors of hate continue on without saying anything. They become complicit in the problem when, in fact, their very religion requires that they speak out.

as long as you keep it to yourself. The problem is that so many of you have to flaunt your Christainity out in public. Don't ask, don't tell is my philosophy.


P.S. Is it ok if I say bad things about fundamentalists?

To shove their beliefs down my throat. Like the two nuts who showed up the other day. Little assholes is what they were. I was really nice and said, I feel complete, thanks but no thanks. And they had the gall to say in the most condescending and patronizing manner, "are you sure? Do you know what peace is?" Why I didn't pepperspray them I will never know. Little shits. Probably no older than 18!

And God love 'em (the atheists, I mean) for their courtesy and respect! And God love the budhhists and all the other religious groups who DO NOT proselytize.

And they have never asked me about my religious preferences in a job interview.

And they have never sent me a book.

The atheists have a real tolerant way of practicing what they preach. And I appreciate it immensely.

seriously... I posted this before, and i don't know if it got noticed. I have never attempted to convert a christian to atheism/agnosticism, but I have had a 20+post attempt made with the specific intention to convert me. It is extremely offensive when someone assumes that they know what is good for you better than you yourself do. It goes both ways, and as always, it's hard to scream "intolerance" when roughly 15% of the country is atheist, christian holidays are recognized by the government and given days off, every time I go to a baseball game on a sunday i have to hear "god bless america", etc... sorry, no sympathy here.

It's like someone trying to tell you that you need to be MALE instead of FEMALE. Yeah......I suppose I could swing that change in this day and age, but what's wrong with who I am exactly as I am today? Not a whole lot. And certainly not anything worse than the person trying to convert me.

It's like their entire foundation is based on disrespect of others and of the life process. I just don't get it. And they sure don't seem to know what the heck we are squawking about. Mind-numbing.

their way of life is completely supported and furthered by our country/government right now, and they keep whining about how hard it is! please... god is everywhere. not that i care, but if you're a christian, imagine what it is like if you don't believe in god: you drive to work, and in 15 minutes, you pass 15 churches, with 15 billboards saying things such as "it's not too late to see the error of your ways", etc.. (and don't nitpick, that wasn't an exact quote, only an example). you get days off work for holidays that mean nothing to you, and are located at inconvenient times (why the hell doesn't chrisitianity have more important holidays in the summer), you have to hear god songs at sporting events (and, if like me, you don't take off your hate during "god bless america" b/c, for one thing, it is not our national anthem, you get berated for being a "communist" and "unpatriotic" even though you said nothing), the national anthem even includes the words "under god", people try to convert you (even here), and if you just ask people politely not to discuss how God has changed their life in front of you, they say you are "intolerant". I don't care one way or the other about most of the things I listed earlier in this post, but if you push god in my face in conversation deliberately, and I bring up an objection to something that you started, it is not intolerance. rant over...

People here try to convert one another to all sorts of beliefs. Done with respect I am OK with it. I've had folks try to get me to convert to almost every idea here from the most normal to the most tinfoil.

Religion AND lack thereof are like that. Converting others is one thing, being rude and obnoxious is another.

...but, as the granddaughter of peasants, I also intensely dislike intellectual snobbery, which is more pernicious than anyone is willing to acknowledge.

just to be an intellectual snob? Just to try to make you feel intellectually inferior?

Do you find books in hotel rooms that have the sole purpose to make you feel like a dummy?

?????????????????????????????????

that automatically ASSume I'm not enlightened enough to resist their con game.

Religion is insulting to intelligence.

If you don't like it, don't patronize them.

and do it IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!

And every other law that requires anyone to do anything to make their establishment equal-access.

And we shouldn't use taxpayer money to enforce fire codes -- a person assumes the RISK when they enter that PRIVATE hotel room, I guess.

But, I almost *do* want to start a hotel chain just to fill the rooms with tarot cards, a book on wiccan, something on atheism, a little dollop of the Dalai Lama......and anything else that might add to diversity and choice in things pertaining to "faith".

Doesn't mean the hotel chain bans certain books or doesn't hang certain art works. Again, if you don't like it, don't read it.

Doesn't mean the hotel chain bans certain books or doesn't hang certain art works. Again, if you don't like it, don't read it.

Pay-Per-View porn. Whether or not you watch it is your choice. Whether or not you open the desk drawer, pull out the Gideon's Bible, and read it is also your choice.

Geez, that's just soooo oppressive and unbearable.

:nopity:

you don't have to put up with atheist literature in hotels that you go to. The main point here is that you keep referring to people as "intolerant" when they are just responding to a society/culture that is intolerant of their beliefs/non-beliefs for the most part (as I said, roughly 15% of the US pop. are atheists, and 59% believe that rapture will happen, just to contrast some extremes). people bring god into conversation here all the time, and when someone else either asks them to stop bringing it into the conversation or calls them on their beliefs, they say that people are "intolerant". what a load of crap, if you don't want to be called on religion, then don't push it in people's faces. my main problem with this thread is that, like so many others in the same vein, it whines about the persecution of the modern-day american christian. sorry, this isn't rome, you have a huge majority in this country and you are never persecuted for your religion outside of an online forum. maybe this forum gives you an inkling of what it is like to be an atheist in america today, where you cannot speak your beliefs without fear of attack. I guess I'm just saying stop acting like you are in the persecuted minority, it simply isn't true (don't care about your beliefs as long as you stop acting so damn put upon). sorry for the harshness in tone, but there has to be at least 1 of these threads a day.

First off, I think your numbers are high for atheists. I think that includes agnostics and those who don't even care about the topic at all.

If you want to put atheist literature in hotels, I suggest you start an athiest hotel chain. Hotels are owned by people. Most people are religious and, since they are PRIVATE entities, the owners do what they damn well choose on this topic.

If I bring God into a conversation, that is my choice because it is part of my belief system. As long as I don't attack you for not believing, you are not right to attack me FOR believing.

Religion is part of who I am. I am tired of atheists saying we push it in your face. I've heard that a lot about me being black, too. Guess, what, BOTH are part and parcel to who I am.

Understanding of others views. While you may believe that simple things like blessing a person or working god into a conversation is innocent you have to understand that it is like working a racial epitath into the conversation for atheists. Yes we have to be tolerant of your beliefs but guess what. You have to be more aware of your actions as well. We disagree. We believe different things. We probably have a great deal in common as well though. When not discussing the things we agree on we have to be mindful of not insulting the other.

I wouldn't say "understanding" another person's views, I would say accepting them. I don't understand how anyone could not believe in God. I accept that some do and I am OK with their choice, as long as they don't abuse me for mine.

But saying I believe in God is not like using a racial epithet. It is NOT directed at you. That is what an epithet does. If you are so weak in your beliefs that you can't even HEAR the name of God, that is your problem and not mine.

not to believe in god? If not then do not assume that I can choose to believe in god. Belief is not about choice. Belief comes about by the collection of your experiences and understanding of the world around us. I can no more choose to believe in god than you can choose to not believe in god. Our awarness may change and experience may teach us new things but until such a shift occurrs we can no more change our belief than a leopard can change its spots.

I have freedom of thought, freedom of choice. I can CHOOSE to believe however I wish, whenever I wish.

Belief is an act of faith. I still have faith and I still believe.

"If I bring God into a conversation, that is my choice because it is part of my belief system. As long as I don't attack you for not believing, you are not right to attack me FOR believing." So if I brought "not God"/atheistic beliefs into a conversation, are you saying that you wouldn't say I was intolerant because that is "part and parcel of who I am"? sorry, i think if the shoe were on the other foot, you'd call me intolerant.

I don't care if you don't disbelieve, I only care if you disrespect like so many are doing in this thread calling us "conned" or "holy rollers."

So you don't believe in God? So? I do. Case closed as far as I am concerned.

Particularly in countries with higher popuations of different religions. Different religious tomes are being placed in hotel rooms these days. Of course Gideon still holds sway in the US.

PS Penn and Teller have a collection of Gideon bibles they have stolen from every hotel they ever stayed in. Personally I am in favor of leaving books in the hotel of my own choosing. Perhaps Sagan's Demon Haunted World or Whitman's Leaves of Grass.

Seriously!!! They are free. Penn & Teller may think they absconded with them...but the Gideons want you to take it!!

I had a teacher in high school who was a minister of some sort.....(that was the good thing......I couldn't even tell you what his religion was...and he was teaching Social Science!).

Anyways.....he said the Gideons put the bibles there for free! Interesting!

In fact PnT make mention of that fact. The Gideon's place the bibles in the room for a multitude of reasons. They expect them to be taken. Always check the Gideon. One of the recent tactics they have been using is leaving money in them. Convienianly placed on interesting pages.

Religion needs access to the brain to propogate(any idea does). Religions have become very very very good at getting to the brain. Its called evolution.

it's best for me to stay out of theism vs atheism threads.

towards both believers and non-believers here at DU and the country at large. more so for non-believers because to be a believer is more acceptable (even if your use of religion is abhorrant) than non-believers.

my position is this, i don't care who you worship and why, it is how you live your day to day life. if you're an okay person than you are okay with me(of course my idea of being an okay person will be different than others).

because atheists and agnostics get so sick of religion being thrown in our faces EVERY F***ING DAY.

an intelligent species.

:evilgrin:

someday, hopefully, we might be evolve it out of our genes.

I don't feel like "religion" is thrown in my face every day.

I like churches, for example. I like the architecture and artwork. For me to claim that their presence is "oppressive" would feel very philistine to me.

the shoe were on the other foot? how about if the church of satan somehow became as prolific as christianity is today, and had beautiful churches on every corner? would you still say " like churches, for example. I like the architecture and artwork. For me to claim that their presence is "oppressive" would feel very philistine to me"? I highly doubt it.

Personally, I think churches of Satan everywhere would have great artwork.


maybe that's because I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN.

The avatar is a Celtic cross. Look it up. My grandfather carved them.

I'm irish:) and I know that, it just seems that you have been playing the christian's advocate for this whole conversation, so I assumed that you were one:)

Those who profess to believe in any specific religion are often intolerant of non-believers. I have been subjected to more than one intolerant remark about my non-belief since being a member of DU. I have also found that atheists tend to affect an air of superiority toward those who profess a belief in an established religion. This too is very intolerant.

My position has always been that it is imperative to separate religion and state. I believe in freedom from religion as well as freedom of religion. Also, if religion gains a foothold in government, which religion will it be? Any religion that isn't the state religion is vulnerable to prosecution. So separation of church and state also protects the rights of individual religions to exist.

about any belief they have.

Just write a letter to the editor bashing the NRA.
You have not seen intolerance until you see the rebuttals.

this matter on another board a long time ago and I know exactly of what you speak. Hideous isn't it?

Atheists are tolerant of tolerant theists.
Atheists invective directed at Christainity is the result of intolerance on the part of the most vocal of the Christain community.

(another version of the "all Christians are alike" attack)

If it said just "intolerance on the part of the Christian community", it would be an "all Christians are alike" attack. It doesn't say so: it specifies "the most vocal of the Christian community". Do you actually bother to read what you write?
:nopity:

Just because some don't toe the christian line doesn't mean we hate christians.

Last time I checked I was still allowed to believe that christianity is a bunch of horseshit. But, god forbid, someone actually express their anti-theist belief on the board. Because, you know, Christianity is SUCH a prosecuted minority :eyes:

no one is asking you to tow the Christian line. We are demanding respect. There is a big difference.

I personally never look at people with any religion the same way as others, because I see their beliefs as logically flawed. I haven't participated in the theist-bashing here because I don't want to make enemies, but I assume that most of the bashing here emanates from the same self-righteous state of mind that all bashing does.

In the history of the human race
Of all the inspirations for the separation of man from his true tribal culture
Of all the inspirations for acts of violence from one man onto another,
From one nation onto another, from one oppressor onto the oppressed.
There is no more guilty party and inspiration than those books known
As the holy bible the Koran and the bagavad gita to spread separation of mankind.

The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They've caused wars, now follow if you can,

They took away our love and gave us fear
Tried to make us hate the one who put us here
Then they took our sacred songs and made them wrong
Then they took away our prayers and gave us theirs

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They've caused wars, now follow if you can,

First they created sin so they could win
Then they built the cages they could put us in
Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
Then they took away the earth and gave us hell

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They've caused wars, now follow if you can,

It's time for you to love one another
It's time for you recognize your brother
It's time for us to stop killing our mother
It's time for us to care for each other
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit

It's time for you to love one another
It's time for you recognize your brother
It's time for us to stop killing our mother
It's time for us to take care of each other

It's time for you to love one another
It's time for you recognize your brother
It's time for us to stop killing our mother
It's time for us to take care of each other

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They've caused wars, now follow if you can,

They took away our love and gave us fear
Tried to make us hate the one who put us here
Then they took our sacred songs and made them wrong
Then they took away our prayers and gave us theirs

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They've caused wars, now follow if you can,

First they created sin so they could win
Then they built the cages they could put us in
Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
Then they took away the earth and gave us hell

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They've caused wars, now follow if you can,

It's time for you to love one another
It's time for you recognize your brother
It's time for us to stop killing our mother
It's time for us to care for eachother

The Bible is Bullshit/Corporate Avenger

The Bible is a cultural document that records the thoughts and stories of a group of people, just like the Koran and the Bagada vita and the teachings of Buddha do.

I know that some humans will misuse these documents to further their own agendas. The Bible itself has so many contradictory passages that they really cancel each other out and thinking people will not take the lessons literally nor accept that this is the will of their God because of the say so of some sage priest or other religious ruler. I have never read the other documents so I won't comment, but I will assume that it is true for them as well.

One can read the mythology of many nations and cultures and will find the same premises hold true. The contradictions rise from local traditions and the need of religious leaders to tailor the lessons and stories to the people they were trying to reach. But to wholeheartedly condemn these works is the next thing to book burning as far as I am concerned.

Thank you.

the Bible is a storybook created by the religion for the religion. Many (if not most) Christians view that "cultural document that records the thoughts and stories of a group of people" as the word of Gawd.

Not exactly some innocent little learning experience...it's a doctrine on how to obey the "faith"

The word of God and the people is one and the same...in case you don't know, a significant number of Christians believe God is omnipresent, so resides also within people...those words in the Bible were motivated by a unified spirit, therefore, the word of God.

Many non-Christians seem to have a serious problem accepting any other Christian definition of God than an out-there man with a white beard - wake up and listen to current day progressive Christianity!

This would surely get a lot of Democrats elected.

I'm glad most of us don't think like this.

This type of hatred is worse than the hatred that comes from Falwell. You are nothing but the enemy you say you despise.

Posting the lyrics of a shitty punk band convinced me. Congrats.

But seriously, this is the sort of stuff people are complaining about in terms of the intolerance of a select few of the non-believers on this board. I haven't seen anyone post the lyrics of a song 'Atheists Go to Hell' or anything like that. I haven't seen anyone refer to atheists by some smarmy-ass nickname like 'god-pods' or claim that atheists have been 'conned by the devil' into non-belief.

If this were a board filled with diehard fundies, I might understand the rampant dogmatism on part of the non-believers arguing against the believers, but I haven't seen anything like that here. Here, where atheists and agnostics hold what is most likely the plurality, if not the outright majority, believers are treated like shit and their beliefs are belittled for not fitting the DU theological orthodoxy. I don't care how you're treated in the outside world - it's still intolerance here.