Let's revisit the "R" situation, shall we?

"R" meaning Reparations.

A friend sent me this article today: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00B3ns

I was particulary struck by the closing statements:

Many whites who grew up middle class in the suburbs like to think we got where we are today on merit -- hard work, intelligence, pluck and maybe a little luck. We wonder why non-white parents didn't just work hard, buy a home and pass on the appreciated value like our parents did. We tend to be blind to how the playing field has been -- and continues to be -- tilted to our advantage.

Racism doesn't just come dressed in white sheets or voiced by skinheads, but lies in institutions that, like the FHA, have quietly and often invisibly channeled America's wealth, power, and status disproportionately to white people, giving us a head start in life. As Ohio State University law professor John A. Powell observes: "The slick thing about whiteness is that whites are getting the spoils of a racist system without themselves being personally racist."

OK -- most of you who are against reparations base your objections on the fact that there are no living slaves alive today, nor their immediate offspring. Many of you balk at the mere suggestion of reparations, adding that even though your ancestors may have been slave owners, it has nothing to do with you (you know who you are from the other reparation threads we have participated in).

So my question is, as many whites continually benefit and reap rewards from this country's countless racist policies, don't I have the right to be compensated as one of a race who has suffered from these policies?

Whites are enshrouded in so many different forms of privilege that they can't even distinguish it. It's the norm for them.

I think the larger question is how best to redress "The Debt".

n/t

are you always this shy?

. . .whenever the issue of reparations is just brushed aside. It might not be the answer, but it at least needs careful consideration.

is reflective of how we wound up with the sorry government that we are presently cursed with.

...with the "majority" on DU people would like me to shut up. Don't often get asked to "speak my mind" on such a subject.

Might share your opinion. My challenge to you is this: State your opposition to reparations without saying your family did not own slaves; State your opposition to reparations without saying other groups had it just as hard; State your opposition to reparations without saying that Affirmative Action and welfare are forms of reparations.

. . .basically you are saying we will not address this issue that is important to a significant number of African Americans because it will hurt race relations. . .that argument itself hurts race relations.

imho the property of the "owners" should have been divied up between the former slaves. Apparently that take on property was too much even for the abolitionist....
We can't undo the past. we'll not be giving north america back to native americans nor will the israelis leave palistine, despite the horrible injustices inflicted.
Practically, I think asking working class whites to pick up that tab would put them permanently in the R column
Now, if you put the burden on wealthy descendants of slavers.......

In theory I support reparations, but in practice I don't think we will ever see them. I think that there should be something done to recognize the unfair disadvatage Blacks have been put in by slavery and Jim Crow. While most people will say "my family never owned slaves" they cannot deny the advantages that Jim Crow and the lingering legacy of racism have given people of European ancestory.

Just like speaking out against Isreal automatically gets you branded as an anti-Semite, speaking out agasint reperations, AA, and other issues gets you branded as a racist. Until we can keep that from happening then there can't be an honest and open discussion about it.

Are rooted in racism and often ignore history. I have not really heard one good argument against racism that is honest.

you lost me on that last line.

The party who wants to abolish the inheritance act is the same party who freaks about reparations "because all of the slaves are dead."

nt

Doc always has great points.

...you agree with them?

Doc and I don't always agree, but he always has my respect.

He is a fountain of wisdom intertwined with humor.

Check out his posts sometime.

...it wans't so much a "point" as a sarcastic remark.

It is horribly hypocritical of the people mentioned, but it wasn't realy thta inciteful of an observation. Hence my questioning it being a "great point".

<on edit>

Sarcastic isn't the right word. Can't think of the one I would rather use though.

But let me explain it in simpler terms.

Grown-ups have these things called "wills." They're so that when old people die, all of their money and property go to there loved ones. Usually children or other relatives.

Now nobody except for ignorant, lying, racist pricks believes that the actual slaves deserved reparations. Even just after the Civil War people believed that. But instead of paying the slaves what they deserved, the government decided they would rather spend money on things like Nathaniel Bedford Forrest statues and gallows.

Now if the freed slaves had gotten reparations, they probably would have spent it on things like acreage and mules. Instead, since they were broke, illiterate, and enslaved, they pretty much stayed that way after the war. They sold their souls to sharecroppers, not that they had the choice.

Now nobody except for ignorant, lying, racist pricks believes that if slaves had got reparations, they wouldn't will it to there decendants, who are still alive today. But instead of getting reparations, blacks have gotten nothing but 140 years of segregation, exploitation, lynchings, and Strom Thurmond. Clearly todays african americans are worse off because there were no reparations. And clearly the United States of America got away with theft.

So now here we've got the republican party. They say we should get rid of the inheritance tax. They say that the government has no right to keep dead peoples money, it should go to the families instead.

But obviously that has nothing to do with reparations.

Amazing the things you learn on here.

Reparations is a PROPERTY issue. PROPERTY was attained by the enslavement of a race. BUT FOR THAT PROGRAM certain property holders would NOT NOW enjoy their most privileged status.

I don't have time to go into ALL my arguments FOR reparations but I believe that that article is correct. One CAN benefit from discrimination even if they don't actively participate. Ask any male.

Didn't take long for that to get thrown into the mix.

labor market in comparable jobs simply on the basis of their gender?

Please explain how a statement of historical fact is bashing anyone.

AHH MORE NAME CALLING WHEN WE CAN'T ACTUALLY REBUT WHAT WAS SAID..IT DIDN'T TAKE LONG.

...besides the some old tired song and dance that "the man keeps us down" and it'll be worth debating.

"old tired song" ?

It's not bashing, it's the truth. A white man in this society plays on home turf to the disadvantage of anyone of a different color or gender.

Oh, it was definately male bashing. You just turned it into white male bashing. So you are sexist and racist.

I'm quite white and male myself. Perhaps I'm self-hating? :shrug:

AGAIN PROVE THAT IS WAS MALE BASHING???? HOW IS POINTING OUT A HISTORICAL GAP IN WAGE COMPENSATION MALE BASHING????
A LITTLE TOO ABOVE YOUR HEAD???????

Even with a well reasoned response you wouldn't listen. Thta is the major problem with this issue. Most of the people are so well entrenched in thier holes that they won't even listen to the people in their own camp saying things they don't want to hear. Your obviously emotional response to my disagreement has already proven that you wouldn't listen to anything I had to say, no matter how well reasoned. So why should I even try?

accuse me of an emotional response? Please your obviously VOID responses left yourself open for challenge.

If you have a valid anser that takes into account inequities in institutions that have continued to exacerbate the conditions under which slavery and unequal treatment under the law have flourished, i'm ALL ears.

If you come from a space of historical denial, then yes, you are correct, I will still dismiss your position but with a well reasoned response.
Time to put up or shut up.

Prove you posted on this thread with an intention to do something other than call names and disrupt.

...to answer the question. My answer was no. There wasn't a need to post anything else.

When I worked in an auto-parts factory, the men were mostly standing in the hot oven room working with air wrenches for the same pay as the women who were mostly sitting in the cooler "floor" working with their hands. Turnover for the men was very high, and for the women it was very low.
True, I grew up middle class, but my white skin and college degrees have not opened alot of doors since I quit working for the war machine. So I am to be assessed with a tax so that the black guy who just beat me out for a full-time job can get reparations??? What about my neighbor's grandson who has a white mother and works as an airline pilot - does he need/deserve reparations too? Or just half-reparations?
My argument against reparations is based on my great-great grandfather who died in Andersonville prison at age 24, and there's a few hundred thousand more white northerners where he came from, many of whom were quite passionate about the need to end slavery.

Personally, I don't favor reparations. First of all, who pays? Should a family who just immigrated from El Salvador have to pay reparations? Should I pay half since my father was born outside of the country, but my mother's family has been in the US for a couple of hundred years? You could say "The Federal Gov't" pays, but that just means we all pay...including African Americans and that doesn't make much sense to me.

Next, who qualifies? Does a recent immigrant from Africa receive 'reparations'? Does a child of mixed race couple (one of whom is black) receive full reparations or only half?

:shrug:

It was the government who aided, abetted, and benefitted from slavery, so it will be the governmint that has to pay. And the taxpayers fit the bill, black and white. Just like japanese americans paid taxes that paid for reparations to internment victims.

can't we at least once have a decent discussion without resorting to tossing grenades?

Then does your argument spring a leak? Ford an other companies are being sue'd for their activities in Argentina's dirty war. If a corporation has no death, then decades later when the full complicity of their interference is known, they should be held to account.

I doubt it'd raise lots of cash - though I could be wrong. So which communities benefit? Only those in the south?

Also...I didn't mean to throw a bomb. I figured the thread would become a flame-fest, but these are my opinions...I'm on DU to discuss things. Not start silly wars.

What about people of mixed partents? Do they get 50%.

How does a check for $500 or however much make up for the suffering of your ancestors under slavery? Will MONEY ever really make up for the spectre of slavery that has always and probably will always hang over all Americans?

I'm all for justice, I just hate the idea that cutting someone a check will suddenly make things ok between blacks and whites. It won't.

An apology is the first thing on the list. Money is just what gets everyones panties in a bunch.

I could swear he did, but maybe I dreamed it.

If he didn't, that needs to be first on the list, closely followed by our attempted genocide of Native Americans. Someone needs to put an end to this bullshit "But they have casinos now!" talking point.

Don't you know? Casinos are our revenge on teh "White Man" for all he did to us. :evilgrin:

A few more hypocritical Republican senators and we'll be ready to put "phase two" into action.

Who certainly got screwed over by the slave trade.

Actually apologized to the direct decendants of said slaves hasn't happened. I'd assume because that would be an admission of wrong doing. And that would give those awful, liberal, america-haters something to whine about.

but NOT doing so, it seems to me, feeds a lot of anger and resentment.

Personally, I think we could do reparations one better by making a serious, conscious reinvestment in our inner cities and rural areas, but that's just me.

and the rich corporations should pay. After all, that's probably the base of their wealth anyway, or at least some. I believe I heard Aetna mentioned? What corporations' wealth can be traced back to slavery or stealing indians' land and anything else they wanted. Did government profit business all the way back to Washington?

Countless people through history have suffered at the hand of other humans who have benefitted and reaped the rewards.

And who should pay what to whom?
what about descendents of poor white Europeans who came here around the turn of the century, worked in sweatshops and lived in slums? Should they be asked to foot the bill for paying reparations to blacks who descended from those who came to the U.S. after slavery ended?

Reparations aren't going to happen, and shouldn't.

can we dispense with other history, and stick to the discussion at hand?

This ALWAYS happens.

Injustice is injustice. I have a hard time concluding that African American slaves suffered more injustice than the American Indian, for example. And American Indians were taken as slaves too, which is rarely mentioned. In fact, I can't even find one line of French ancestors before 1740, maybe they were American Indian slaves, who knows. But both situations were equally horrific. Both groups continue to suffer.

Then I have ancestors who were slaveowners and ones who came here as indentured servants. Being white made things significantly different, I understand, but still that's how my earliest ancestor got here in the 1600's. Was it his decision, did he owe money, I don't know. And while my ancestors didn't have to work in sweatshops 12 hours a day, children who did have to do that suffered immeasurably in a system that was just a tad bit better than slavery in my opinion.

The point is, until somebody can explain why African Americans in particular, are owed something as a race for their suffering while other races aren't, then I have to hesitate. I haven't even gotten into the whole Mexican-American injustice and there's countless other situations people could point to as well. The country has provided preference in schooling, jobs, government contracts and business loans for a while now. I kind of thought that was a reparation, imperfect as it is.

Here are some Indian facts that the general public may not know:

1. Native Americans have access to free general health care
2. Catastrophic health care is provided free.
3. Regular dental services are free and things like braces and
false teeth are provided at actual lab costs.
4. Free eye exams and eye surgeries. Does not include cosmetic
surgeries like LASIK
5. Free eyeglasses for children through age 18.
6. HUD subsidized housing. Eligible for couples with children,
regardless of marraige or just living together. One couple
with one child eligible for 2 bedroom one bath house for as
low as $ 39.00/month rent. The higher their income the more
they pay in rent. The highest house payment I ever
heard of was $ 440.00/month for a four bedroom two bath.
7. All renovations of houses are done through government grants.
8. When appliances go out i.e., refrigerator, stove, etc., they are replaced through grant money. (grant money comes from our taxes)
9. Banks will not write mortgages on Indian housing because only tribal members are allowed to own houses on the reservations.
Thus, if someone defaulted on a note, the bank cannot seize the house. (That is why the Federal Govt. pays for remodeling
and repairs, etc.)
10. The local tribes have federal money set aside that was given for property reimbursement years ago that is distributed to
each tribal member upon their 18th birthday. The current sum
is around $ 18,000 to each new adult.
11. Most tribes have Smoke Shops on their reservations where they can sell cigarettes without federal taxation. Profits from
these are divided amongst the adult tribal members. Locally,
they get around $ 1,000 each December. (The smoke shop across from the Vegas clinic yeilds their tribal members approx 100,000 each year upon their 18th birthday - small tribe)
12. When a Native American dies, the Bureau of Indian Affairs
provides $ 2,500 for burial expenses. This is a little
better than the $ 255 that Social Security gives.
13. All Reservations have a mini-mart with gas pumps. Tribal
members pay the full price per gallon of say $ 1.59 for regular
They are given a receipt for their purchase. At the end of the
month they turn in their receipts and receive a $ .52 per
gallon federal tax rebate.

again: where the fuck is my acre????? just one, I ain't greedy.

...the history for the subject at hand is pretty simple. Slavery was legal back then, and most of the slaves transported to the US were sold into slavery by their own people. At the time they were property of their masters and legally so.

Not saying it was moral, or even right. It was, however, legal. Reperations constitute retroactive punishment under new laws.

Why do blacks deserve to be treated differently than any other group that has suffered persecution?

about other groups.

My intent was to focus on how racism has affected African Americans, not Italians, Jews, Indians, or Irishmen.

I added these groups as these type conversations always get off subject, the point changed, and these groups used to accomplish this.

"...don't I have the right to be compensated as one of a race who has suffered from these policies?"

If we aren't going to look at it in perspective with the like suffering of other groups throughout history, then I would have to say:

No.

The winners write the history books.

or is it really that reparations are due for racism instead of slavery?

history. Example - I was good friends when I was about 13 with my great-grandmother, who was then about 83. She died a year or so later, but this is someone whom I knew and loved in my lifetime, and this woman was arrested three times in her youth for marching for the vote for women. Slavery is not that long ago either, and it affects people who are alive now!

but NO ONE gets my Godzilla movie collection!! :)

Seriously though (hey,there's a first time for everything),the apology seems like a given.

I have no land to give,but I do have a spare bedroom if anyone needs it.

And as for the money,it would be nice to see our tax money go to something good for a change.

:hi:

:D

BTW-I just noticed that your cat Streak has an R in it's name...all this time I thought you had a cat named Steak :shrug:

Let us handle the matter of reparations in the order of the
offense: American Indians first. Of course, once we give this
country back to the American Indians, further reparations
will be their concern.

....was a new point. Or at least not one you don't see made very often during these discussions.

Thank you for being original.

although I overwhelmingly agree with your statement.

...isn't acceptable though. They are far more deserving of reperations.

I'm trying to FOCUS this conversation to one group.

http://new.blackvoices.com/news/features/bv-reparations020521,0,4923308.story?coll=bv-news-archive

Let's take care of our group. LEt's improve just our position. Let's make sure "we" get taken care of and hang the rest of the world. If you want to have reperations you ahve to take care of the whole issue. Those who are most deserving should be pushed straight to the front of the line.

Sorry. We sink or swim together and that's the way I see government reparations.

However, if blacks want to sue particular corporations and institutions that benefited from slave labor, I am 100% behind that. Whether they can prove direct ancestry or not, there has to be some way to compensate for their contributions. One way I can think of is to put money into preserving the true heritage of African Americans which is sorely missing in our country. When people understand the true contribution of African Americans to the economic foundation of this country, their real contribution to the Civil War for example, then it will not be so easy to relegate them to the 'back of the bus'. More than 'I'm sorry'; I think we need to say welcome, thank you, you've done so much more than we've ever acknowledged, we're glad you're here.

Just my 2 cents.

you seem to be limiting the denfendants to the corps and companies that benifited from slavery yet require no proof of descendence (is that a word?) from the plantiffs? how come?

http://www.ihs.gov/AdminMngrResources/Budget/FY_2004_Budget_Justification.asp

(from the Executive Summary)

At the Budget Authority level, the Indian Health Service’s FY 2004 budget request of $2,889,662,000 is a net increase of $73.256 million (2.6%) and 60 FTE above the FY 2003 President’s Budget request of $2,816,406,000 and 14,961 FTE. At the Program Level it is a net increase of $130.221 million for a total of $3,607,282. At the Budget Authority level, this budget will provide pay cost increases for IHS, Tribal, and Urban program staff, staffing and operating needs of three newly replaced health care facilities, funds for health care facilities construction projects, and program increases for contract health services and sanitation facilities construction. At the Program Level, there is an increase of $50,000,000 under the reauthorized Special Diabetes program for a new total of $150 million a year as well as an increase of $6,965 million in estimated Medicare and Medicaid collections.

Here are some Indian facts that the general public may not know:

1. Native Americans have access to free general health care
2. Catastrophic health care is provided free.
3. Regular dental services are free and things like braces and
false teeth are provided at actual lab costs.
4. Free eye exams and eye surgeries. Does not include cosmetic surgeries like Lasik.
5. Free eyeglasses for children through age 18.
6. HUD subsidized housing. Eligible for couples with children, regardless of marraige or just living together. One couple
with one child eligible for 2 bedroom one bath house for as
low as $ 39.00/month rent. The higher their income the more
they pay in rent. The highest house payment I ever
heard of was $ 440.00/month for a four bedroom two bath.
7. All renovations of houses are done through government
grants.
8. When appliances go out i.e., refrigerator, stove, etc., they are replaced through grant money. (grant money comes from our taxes)
9. Banks will not write mortgages on Indian housing because
only tribal members are allowed to own houses on the reservations.
Thus, if someone defaulted on a note, the bank cannot seize
the house. (That is why the Federal Govt. pays for remodeling
and repairs, etc.)
10. The local tribes have federal money set aside that was given for property reimbursement years ago that is distributed to
each tribal member upon their 18th birthday. The current sum
is around $ 18,000 to each new adult.
11. Most tribes have Smoke Shops on their reservations where
they can sell cigarettes without federal taxation. Profits from
these are divided amongst the adult tribal members. Locally,
they get around $ 1,000 each December. (The smoke shop across from
the Vegas clinic yeilds their tribal members approx 100,000 each year upon their 18th birthday - small tribe)
12. When a Native American dies, the Bureau of Indian Affairs
provides $ 2,500 for burial expenses. This is a little
better than the $ 255 that Social Security gives.
13. All Reservations have a mini-mart with gas pumps. Tribal
members pay the full price per gallon of say $ 1.59 for regular
They are given a receipt for their purchase. At the end of the
month they turn in their receipts and receive a $ .52 per
gallon federal tax rebate.

reparations should be made.

institutionalized racism has continued to this present day.

i am always reminded of the black soldiers going off to fight in our wars. they were fighting for 'freedoms' they themselves did not have.

eom

Are you so worried about paying for reparations?

I was just asking "who pays?" Shouldn't the people who benefited the most from slavery pay the most? Or should I, descended from an Irish immigrant who never owned land or slaves have to pay as much as a descendant of a Virginia plantation owner?

I'd still like to know if you ever asked, about the Iraq invasion, "who pays?"

a bigger portion of the tax burden by Bush's tax-cuts. I also do not support the war and therefore don't like the fact that mucho tax dollars are going to finance it.

What does the war have to do with reparations?

You seem concerned with who pays for it. Reparations would cost MUCH less than the invasion of Iraq, so I would expect someone who was worried about the extra burden on the working class to oppose the invasion in a similarly greater fashion.

for me to make that statement on a thread discussing slavery reparations. Please don't make assumptions about me.

Monetarily, reparations would be a drop in the bucket compared to Bush's adventure in the middle east. Who pays? The same people in either case. Us.

How do you know how much money reparations will involve?

I fail to see your point.

What does the cost of your food have to do with reparations? Virtually nothing. What does the cost of the war have to do with reparations? Virtually nothing.

I don't support the war but I can't choose to not pay taxes for the war because I like it less than reparations.

Also, you still haven't answered my question about how much the reparations will cost and what will be my personal share.

The invasion of Iraq was and is. Slavery reparations likely would be. I hope that helps with the context.

Also, you still haven't answered my question about how much the reparations will cost and what will be my personal share.

I have no idea what either would be, but I'll bet the bank that your personal share of reparations payments would be FAR less than what your personal share of the Iraq invasion will be. Here's my question - have you ever asked George Bush what your personal share of the cost of the Iraq invasion will be?

I do realize that your grocery bills are not paid out of the communal tax base. I am just curious why you seem to imply that I am in support of the cost of the war but not for reparations. I never mentioned I was against reparations I just wanted to know what my share was (go back to my original post)

No, I haven't asked Bush what my personal share of the Iraq invasion will be. I doubt he could tell me. It is aslo possible that I will lose a nephew or some old Army buddies of mine who are over there.

I believe that paying reparations will be a difficult proposition. How much will people receive, who will receive, who will pay, and how much will they pay will all need to be worked out.

We should continue with legitimate affirmative action and equal employment opportunity practices in this country to include better funding for poor and minority schools. I think those practices, if applied aggressively but fairly, can go a long way in making things better and correcting past wrongs.

At any rate it is a very complicated issue- perhaps we have tried to simplify it too much or have been too flippant about it on this board.

Peace.

a monetary fund would be easy to establish. There are companies with demonstrable links to those that profited directly from slavery, and they should kick in a royalty fee for what heretofore went untaxed in one of the major injustices committed by one civilization upon another.

But then what? This is the rub.

A lump payment: we all know where it would end up. For as sure as poverty is institutionalized just like racism, part of that institution involves keeping the poor in the dark. Why aren't there any S&Ls in the ghetto? Because they have check cashing stores in another company name that make five times the interest& fees there than they do in suburbia. Gang warfare is tolerated, drug dealing is accomodated, the millions of dollars that flow daily from the poorest parts of our cities to the wealthiest flows unabated. Schemes would be devised awaiting the day a poor black man in the ghetto gets his hands on a lump sum of money. The following day, things would be the same on that block.

A "trust fund". Perhaps the most workable solution, the money would be held in an S&L type institution.Run by whom, though? The Fed has demonstrated adequately that you can't trust THEM to hold stuff for you; look at what a mess the Bureau of Indian Affairs is. Doled out like SS? I don't know.


I can't imagine any scenario that is practical for payments.I can't imagine how you would devise a system for who qualifies. After all, I sincerely doubt there is a family in existence in the South OR the southwest who doesnt have at least one black relative in their family tree, white , brown or indian included.

How do we level the playing field then? Affirmative action helps, but isn't the end all be all. What we need for this to fly, now that we are "enlightened" enough to recognize the need for something,is to pursue the enlightenment. Racism , particularly instutionalized racism, isn't genetic, it's taught by a society in millions of ways.Some are so ingrained that the standard response by many --even DUers--is "what's wrong with that?"

We have come this far; so we there fore can get farther. THIS might be how we apply those funds? To push along the process of enlightenment? Maybe to eliminate the causes & conditions of poverty in this country would be a start. THERE's a windmill for you. Because as I stated before, there's major bucks in keeping "the poor" poor.

I say its time for a good old-fashioned race-war. THEN we'll get that reparations issue settled!

?Es Posible mirrar o tendria que selectar lados?

;-)

I'm thinking that if you're wearing the colors, they'll probably go after you too

knows me also knows I'm a long-reformed racist (since my teen years in the 1950s). To me it opens up consideration for reparations going back as far as human history. I know people who think African-Americans are entitled to compensation but have no interest in doing anything for Native-Americans. I can easily embrace the probably true notion that the ancestors of pretty much any ethnic group were subjected to some kind of abuse in the past. And that sucks, but who has the wisdom (and the bank account) to assuage centuries of grievances of thousands of groups? I have no clue.
:eyes:

edit: wrong word, fixed

the issue is, blacks built much of the industry of the old south, the North, and a lot of other things like buildings, churches, roads....

so, they get to be free and that's basically it? If I were black, I'd claim Republicanism and DEMAND my compensation!

thank you
my thoughts exactly

let me strongly "suggest" that you both read the article and enlighten yourselves.

*ring*..................

clue phone.........................

"So my question is, as many whites continually benefit and reap rewards from this country's countless racist policies, don't I have the right to be compensated as one of a race who has suffered from these policies?"

Between decades of legislation and judicial support and affirmative action and my perception of the general unsoundness of the basic premice that I am somehow benefitting from being white, no, there is no need for reparations. The playing field was leveled a long time ago and I've seen plenty enough instances to prove that this is so.

instances of proof that the field has been leveld would be nice.

:shrug:

*still waiting for at least one of my acres*

*you can keep the mule*

other than the fact that they poop BIG.

See the EEOC. Others go further by encouraging minorities to apply.

Government contracts require percentages of minority participation.

The Detriot Lions have to write a check for (I believe) $200,000 just because they were unable to coax a black man to talk about the coaching job.

I'd be interested in hearing about any institutional instances where it was not so. There would be good money in hooking up with this to get a cut of the lawsuits.

Home of Clarence "Slappy" Thomas.

What a travesty.

Did you know when he left the commission, it was backed up several years in processing EEO complaints?

So much that they had to completely retool the organization?

And it's STILL backed up.

and because it is, most companies follow it. The cost of failure to do so is stiff.

Are there still assholes ? Certainly. Not good to paint a broad canvas with a Cue-tip.

I can't fucking believe how naive some people are.

and because it is, most companies follow it. The cost of failure to do so is stiff.

Let you in on a secret -- the majority of people who benefit from EEOC's services are white women. White women who sue because of age and gender discrimination.

I work for the government, my agency's director is a white woman. The majority of the managers are white women. Is this due to a lack of qualified black men or women? I think not.

I worked for a division that had one black female manager. One. And she was treated like shit.

When blacks try to use that system, the complaints stay right there: bogged down in the system. This is from someone who has been there.

But white women seem to always get "justice".

Those advertisements saying the such-and-such agency is an Equal Opportunity Employer are nothing but bullshit and lip service. Which IS required by law.

You'd be amazed at some of the schemes these people come up with to skirt around that law. I've eavesdropped on them in meetings.

Many black females in leadership positions.

If you want better treatment, perhaps you should look at the private sector.

I've heard more negatives about government work conditions than I ever did outside.

the EEOC is a GOVERNMENT agency!!!!!!

They are there to further the GOVERNMENT's agenda. Equal Opportunity for All!!!!!!!!

How can other GOVERNMENT agencies be so adversely affected????

And one bank means shit.

A broken clock is right at least once a day. How many managerial jobs can be available at a bank? Give me a break.

Why should I have to go elsewhere, when the EEOC is there to protect my rights as a government employee????

I thought you said it worked so well.

was discriminated against continuously from my first employment in late sixties to the eighties when I stopped working to care for my disabled husband. Here in S. Louisiana there are a lot of bank managers who are black, males and females. Don't know about other industries.

As stated in a previous post, I am for reparations to both indians and descendents of slaves, as long as the people who got rich are the ones to pay. In other words, the ones who benefited should pay and none of that "all white people should pay". That's ludicrous. The American taxpayers should not pay for this, only the rich people and corporations who benefited. Also, the reparations should not go to individuals, but be placed into help for specific communities. There are a lot of black communities that certainly need no help, and many more that do. Schools rejuvenated, training centers, daycare centers, computer centers, health centers, and many other good things could be done with reparation money, and should be.

there is little consequence for the government to fail to follow it's own rules. This is a long standing fact.

For a corporation not only is there the civil/criminal consequence but also the negative publicity to deal with. Look at Denny's. They had the issue where a bus containing blacks was turned away for being black. The public ourcry was deafening and they nearly went out of business. Now they are the poster child for minority development.

Think other businesses that count on the public to earn a buck were not paying attention ? Racism is bad for business. Even my racist brother and business owner agrees with that and you can bet the ranch that all the business leaders he deals with agree.

of black sounding names: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0128/p19s01-wmwo.html

BTW, regarding the Lions, I heard an ESPN item on this - claimed the team KNEW who they were going to hire and thus didn't follow the process of interviewing beyond, including talking to potential coaches who are African American. The report said nothing about them trying but they couldn't find anyone to apply/talk to.

Sorry but this sounds as misrepresentative of the situation as Tom DeLay's claim back in the late 80s that he and Dan Quayle WANTED to serve in Vietnam, but minorities had taken all of the slots.

Could someone provide a list of this country's current countless racist policies?

and let's start from there.

"a policy known today as "redlining." Between 1934 and 1962, the federal government backed $120 billion of home loans"

How about a sublist of the countless? Anyone?

that there is so little acceptance of the successes of the Civil Rights Movement. Its as though people think that there is no difference between 1960 and 2003.

The differences are breathtaking, and undeniable.

You self-righteous... How can you possibly say that blacks have it so much better?? WHY DID THEY HAVE IT BAD TO BEGIN WITH?!?!? BECAUSE IDIOTIC PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THEY WERE BETTER THAN ALL THAT DECIDED THAT FREE LABOR WAS NECESSARY FOR AMERICA!

I can't believe how undeniably stupid some people can be.

*waiting breathlessly*

may i suggest you think twice before responding to others of it's kind. they are traps.

as you have probably noticed, they are not really born of a desire to discuss the issue but as a chance to lie in wait for any fool who dares ask for details or, gawd forbid, disagree.

avoid this subject like the plague unless you enjoy being beset upon.

if its not possible to "survive" a chatroom discussion then what it the point of them ?

People are going to disagree, thats what makes them interesting. I'll admit that minds are rarely changed but if you can never discuss differing views then how do we progress.

I respect all the posters to don't agree with me, their opinions are every bit as valid as mine. I would hope that they feel the same way.

If there are those whose purpose is some sort of vitriol that feeds them, so be it. Hopefully there are more people surfing this than that. And if not, oh well, its just internet chat. Its not like its intended to change the world, its mostly entertainment.

But you have a good heart, thanks again !

Any luck finding one?

not easy to recognize if you don't want to

Driving While Black- racial profiling
which leads to more blacks being imprisoned. BY its very definiton it is racist and the jailings based on racist practices are too.
The Institution has decided that Blacks are far more likely to commit a crime than whites. Which, 'we' know is a bunch of crap.

The Justice System- black on black crimes,fine.you'll go to jail maybe, but won't get the death penalty. white on black crimes,fine. you'll go to jail but won't get the death penalty.
if you're black and kill a white person, you'll most likely get the death penalty. if not, you'll still end up with more jail time than the above offenders. Why? because the system values the lives of white people over the lives of black people.

EEOC means nothing except It looks nice in print.

i could go on and on.

The "drug" war -- possession of crack cocaine nets a harsher sentence than possession of powder cocaine. Why is that? and in which neighborhoods are you more likely to find crack cocaine? Black neighborhoods.

Racism and cardiovascular disease in African Americans -- because of lack of proper health care for blacks, they tend to suffer more from CVD. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12811228 ; see also http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/ats/Feb11/

African Americans in the U.S. workforce and labor movement, past and present, and the struggle against racism on the job and in the unions -- http://cbird.8m.com/labor/union2.htm


The military: http://www.workers.org/ww/2002/racism1031.php ; http://chnm.gmu.edu/features/episodes/mobilizingafrica.html

Environmental racism: http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1993/119/119p20.htm

Is this sufficient, or would you care for more?

it's available in video, too.

The seeds that were planted since the inception of this country have been nutured and cultivated. Very little has changed. The only thing that has changed is the way things are done.

Things are not done so overtly now.

I don't think I have the skills to explain this to you. Rather, I don't have the patience. Perhaps the author can do better.

And you seem to have a problem comprehending the original article I posted. Take the blinders off.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451192036/103-4700001-1450246?v=glance

this book came out in 1954. Thats nearly fifty years ago.

Things have changed since then. I was there then, I am here now. It different and if you can't see that I feel badly for you.

Is it ever done ? There will always be biggotry, there has always been biggotry. Thats just not going to change. But its difficult to get away with it now and its socially unacceptable. It's controlled as well as it probably can be. I'm afraid that to fail to see this indicates some bias on the part of people that feel as you do.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

thats number one, yet a large chunk of the problem.

But an aggressive program for leveling the playing field is absolutely necessary. I think that is it laughable that the same people that are for the death penalty are against any form of affirmative action or reparations. The simple fact is that any argument that you can use for one, also works for the other. The rather ironic fact is that while a lot of the reasons that people use to support the death penalty evaporate into myth, these same reasons are legitimate for affirmative action or reparations.
Lets look at some of them. The conservatives argue that it saves money to put people to death. In reality it cost almost 10 times as much to execute a prisoner then to hold him for life. Affirmative action on the other hand does save money, by helping a historically disenfranchised population to take care of themselves it reduces the cost associated with, welfare projects, health care, and law enforcement.
The conservatives argue that the death penalty makes America because it acts as a deterrent. When we look at the facts, countries that have banned the death penalty ( Canada, and European Countries) they have far lower rates of violence then the U.S. Affirmative action on the other hand, by giving the Black community options and hope, lowers crime rates as it raises the economic index.
The conservatives also argue that the people that are put to death are monsters that need to be culled. Perhaps this is true, but this is something that is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. If we don’t want human monsters then we need to stop producing them in poverty-stricken neighborhoods where children are raised without hope. Pure necessity dictates that we find a way to inject some economic vitality into these communities.

The final reason I will address is that of Revenge. The conservatives feel that revenge is a legitimate reason to kill someone. Once again this is a judgment call. I myself am an indirect victim of murder, and I will have to deal with the consequences for the rest of my life. The murder of my loved one has devastated me emotionally for the rest of my life. The victims of slavery and racism in America have not only been devastated emotionally, but economically, socially and politically.

Ok nuff out of me
Chris

<snip>
most of you who are against reparations base your objections on the fact that there are no living slaves alive today, nor their immediate offspring.
</snip>

Since blacks were freed in 1865, but did not even start to realize rights until 1965, if not later, I think reparations not only should address slavery but the aftermath.

When you can't vote or own property, and forced to be a sharecropper, I see little difference in the late 1800 thru 1950s and the real slave years.

I am white and I am for reparations and for Conyers' proposed study of them, but the issue is a non-starter as currently framed. It should be about repair, not making amends. There is no way to make amends for slavery. The moral argument is completely hopeless. It is so hopeless that it is actually counterproductive.

The real basis for reparations is because it is pragmatic, cost-effective, and also the best moral alternative going forward. The Clinton formula was that people who were honest and played by the rules should be able to live a decent life in America. The government should dedicate itself to that simple idea. It isn't "merely moral," in my opinion, it's the only technical solution.

A lot of the "conservatism" we are seeing is simple desperation. I think that's why it is so angry. They are trying to squeeze a square block (antique answers like prisons and conventional war) into a round hole (today's bewildering reality). If the block doesn't fit, they are damned well going to get out their hammers.

So if you bring up reparations with these people, you are just going to get hammered. They are way beyond listening for their "still small voices." Someone needs to calm people down and sort of still the waters. Unfortunately, we have a Republican party that can't survive without whipping people up and scaring them, and it's a lot easier to scare people than calm them down.

1. How much money are we talking about, OR would a reasonable amount of money be determined? Or are we necessarily talking about cash?

2. Who would be liable to pay, and who would not? For example, Native Americans have been just as thoroughly victimized as African-Americans by whites, maybe worse. They never owned slaves nor have they benefited from racist policies, so shouldn't they be exempt from compensating blacks?

3. How would the money be collected, administered, and distributed?

4. What specific changes in society would need to be done in order to permanently level the playing field for people of ALL races?

5. Aren't other victims e.g. Native Americans, Japanese victims of internment camps of World War II, underpaid Chinese laborers of the mid-19th century, etc. also worthy of some kind of compensation? Why or why not?

6. How will we be able to tell when everything is all fixed the way it should be?

I usually avoid this kind of topic because it gets my dander up. I've been a victim of discrimination myself, though other than the age discrimination that is slowly descending on me I'd rather not say why or how in an open forum. And BTW none of my ancestors ever owned a slave. About half of them came to the country after the Civil War. Maybe I have unfairly benefitted from racism endemic in society, but nobody has yet given an adequate explanation of what I could do to PERMANENTLY fix it and forever end what I see as a victim mentality on the part of some blacks. My net worth isn't looking too shabby, but I have inherited nothing and have worked hard for everything I own. A divorce left me dead broke at age 40.

Nomex suit on.

let's start here, shall we?

http://new.blackvoices.com/news/features/bv-reparations020521,0,4923308.story?coll=bv-news-archive

4. What specific changes in society would need to be done in order to permanently level the playing field for people of ALL races?

Natural or unnatural near-annihilation of most of the country. Then people won't give a shit about race, creed, or gender. Only then.

Absolutely none because nobody alive today has standing to file such a claim. Standing in civil procedures requires you be either a direct vitim or the child of a direct victim.

Because of that, the argument for reparations for slavery is a non starter and will never go anywhere.

There is a deeper issue here the African American community misses every time with this issue, nobody alive today was a slave or a child of a slave, but nearly all African Americans alive today were directly or indirectly affected by the racist policies of segregation.

What African American leaders SHOULD be calling for is reparations for segregation. Very few African American people alive today are NOT direct victims of segregation or the children of victims of segregation. Nearly every African American in this country would have standing in such a claim and I would argue the effects of segregation were worse than those of slavery because more people were directly affected and continue to be affected by the viscious racism inherent in segregation.

Slavery is a more gut wrenching issue, I guess. Segregation is where a REAL case could be brought and reparations demanded.

Of course, in another 150 years, maybe people will be calling for reparations for segregation. If somebody was smart, they would start it now.

I don't think reparations should ever take place. Because, imo, if it did happen, a lot of whites (mostly republicans) will want to strip this country's black slavery from the history books and also dare anyone that mentions it. The attitude of "well we paid you blacks for it, so I don't want to hear nothing bout it". They will assume racism won't happen to blacks because of reparations.

I may be talking out of my ass but you know that is what will be said.

Sorry but I see too many people show up here with nothing, not even speaking the language, and in a few generations they are set in middle class.

I think the problem lies in inner cities and not flatly accros race. Inner cities have drop out rates from highschool and crime that prevents young people from making it. It's half culture (glorification of violence and crime) and half goverment not caring enough to go full at the problem. However I do not think that any group or race is specifically targetted enough to deserve reparations.

But not in the form of cash payments.

I strongly believe John Brown’s assertion that this nation will pay for in blood what we have wrought upon minorities, particularly black folks.

Cash payments would do nothing except give Corporate America an avenue to screw the recipients out of whatever pittance they received. Oh yes, and it would also help to assuage the guilt of the white progressive and forgive the racist.

True reparations can only come in the form of equality. Anything less if a fool’s game

... we are going to talk about "reparations", lets start with native Americans who got a much worse deal than imported slaves IMHO.

After that, lets forget about it. There is plenty of real racism to deal with, doing such would be much more just and less divisive than the idea of "reparations".

I don't think any monetary compensation is sufficient to make up for being stolen from one's country, stripped of one's culture, religion, and laguage, and being made a labor-bearer on strict domination (colonization) principles. But it is a start. Yes, people have been exploited since the beginning of time, but wouldn't it be nice for a group of people, once in history to actually fucking acknowledge it and take responsibility.

The thing that slays me about objections to things like this is that at the same time we are constantly hit with tripe on the "glory of man", homo sapien meaning intellingent man, and all that shit, and our progress as a species and scientific progress and how we put a person w/ space pod on the moon, not to mention about a hundred million other useless endeavors, and ain't it great that we have such a big brain and all, but never hear any alarm that we are racing toward our own destruction. So many have no concept of emotional intelligence because they have been sold that eurocentric high school propaganda bullshit about emotions being bad; it's this doctrine that turns people and especially males into complete sociopaths (white males because they benefit most from this system by amputating their emotions) , just another whole generation that stands numbly by while human beings prove that we have not progressed one bit for all our scientific masturbation, and have no problem justifying the exploitation of another gender or race or species.

The thread did not say "reparations will make everything okay that ever happened bad for anyone since the beginning of time." It is one group of people trying to right one wrong that was done in one period of history. Any other group so victimized can also sue for reparations. Having lived in the South my whole life I've experienced this awful, raw, open wound that there is between whites and blacks down here, and anything that takes a step in the direction of healing this is a good thing in my book.

Do we give most of the West back to the Native Americans? hell, there are even treaties to back up that position. What about the Irish? The industial revolution was conducted largely on their backs, in many cities they were regarded as "equivalent" to African-Americans, and residual poverty is still rampant in many urban irish-american neighborhoods. Then there is the border issue with Mexico. Or even those who were ruined by McCarthey...

Mostly I think we should focus our energy on making opportunity available to anyone rather than fight a battle that will divide not only the country but the Party as well.

besides money, such as making sure inner city schools are up to par, affirmative action, etc. I prefer those instead of actual cash reparations.

It's not about people lining up waiting for individual checks to be cut.

n/t

What makes you think they wanted something else?

I would suggest that everyone read Randall Robinson's book THE DEBT, for starters.

http://veracity.univpubs.american.edu/weekly_site/weeklypast/030700/story_4.html

He talks about establishing community trusts, among other things.

Please read this book!

I agree with you. The reparations people, including Mr Robinson, want the money to go to organizations, not individuals

who agrees as well.

I'm sorry...this thread is getting so long that I'm having a hard time keeping track of who said what.

:)

:hi:

It's not that I am against the idea of monetary reparations, I just think that it would be very hard to administer. If someone could come up with a good way of doing it, then I'd take a look.

Raise the tax rate on the filthy rich to 40%, and if they don't like it then raise it to 50%+. No I'm not kidding.

But just what do you propose?

While you're at it, though, you may want to consider what we owe the Native Americans.

Remember them? They are the ones whose country the Europeans stole lock stock and barrel.

Should we address these together or apart?

I am being serious.

...to me it just SO obvious.

(1) Must include ALL the disadvantaged. Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans, Po' white trash.

(2) Must include a Marshall Plan for economic redevelopment and re-industrialization to make sure good jobs are retained in this country.

(3) Must include a firm commitment to renew and restore our public education system, and FREE college tuition for state colleges for all below a certain income level.

(4) Must include universal health care for every American.

(5) Must include additional legal remedies if necessary to assure non-discrimination and must be enforced.

(6) Must give all Americans regardless of race, color, creed, etc. a fair shake.

We can't legislate people's attitudes, but we can de-fuse the resentment of the rednecks by giving EVERYBODY better opportunities. We can fund this by eliminating the Bush tax cuts, raising taxes on the rich, and cutting the war budget down by half.

The ruling class stays in power by setting off the powerless against each other.

Peace, legal justice, and economic justice for all should eventually erase the simmering resentments that our sad history has created.

This is starting to look like the Kucinich platform...

...addressing US history HONESTLY and making reparations is a positive step for ALL Americans. It is an investment in the future. It is an investment in a just society.

After reading the links you provided CatWoman, it explains things that have been nagging at me for years. You know, knowing something is terribly wrong but not understanding how it got to be that way.

I think Walt Starr is right about fighting the segregation issue, because red-lining was/is morally wrong; and every African American today has been directly or indirectly affected by it.

Total worth of the US owned by African Americans:
1865 - 0.5%
1990 - 1.0%

These stats are not indicative of the American dream being fulfilled.

In 1865, just after Emancipation, it is not surprising that African Americans owned only 0.5 percent of the total worth of the United States. But by 1990, a full 135 years after the abolition of slavery, Black Americans still possessed only a meager 1 percent of national wealth. As legal scholar john powell (sic) says in the documentary series Race - The Power of an Illusion, "The slick thing about whiteness is that whites are getting the spoils of a racist system even if they are not personally racist."

I believe that last statement.

I don't know what is the best way to repay our fellow African American citizens, but I believe we need to make amends - (just don't make it a faith based initive). Our history, our democracy is not just embarassing, it is heartbreaking. We are such hyprocrites to go across the globe proclaiming our way of life is the greatest.

How about fair qualifying for and low interest mortgages , college tuition, funding for urban city schools, specific income tax breaks, are some examples and foremost a respectful and heartfelt apology.

I don't support giving an individual payout in cash to each african american. I do support building up urban communities and educational programs for communities that have a predominately african american population. I support state and federal efforts to remove all lead from homes in all poor communities. I support affirmative action in education and the workplace.

I would further suggest that we consider the way we gave native americans reparations by giving them the gambling business. This has been beneficial to tribal communites/reservations. The schools, housing, and facilities have improved. There are some corruption problems within some of the tribes, but that was inevitable. It's still not as corrupt as Vegas/AC/Detroit gambling.
So, let's legalize marijuana and give the business to african americans! Not only would that be reparations, we'd be helping them get rich!

.

We already have 95% of the black vote. And the other 5% are suburban, middle class professionals who don't need or want reparations. So how does this help our party?

You are not talking about slave reparations, you are talking about compensating african americans for living in a racist society.

.

Hey Catwoman,

Genetically, African-Americans are on average 70% African, 30% European. Huge numbers of "white" Americans have African ancestry without knowing it. I am one who does know it, thanks to being a genealogy nut. But the only African-American ancestors I can solidly identify were Free People of Color as of the 1750s. After fighting in the Revolution, they earned the right to call themselves white.

The dichotomy between African-Americans who deserve reparation, vs. a non African-Americans who don't, takes a situation with infinite shades of grey and makes it black and white, literally. What about African-Americans whose ancestors were free all the way back to indentured servant times? Are they entitled to reparations? My free black ancestors certainly suffered racial discrimination, but weren't enslaved. How about African Americans whose ancestors arrived here after the end of slavery? How can we possibly sort all this out?

The extent to which someone has been disadvantaged or advantaged by the racial category to which they have been assigned varies from individual to individual so the only fair way to do reparations would be on a sliding scale of who owes and who is owed. That doesn't seem feasible. And while there is some correlation, the extent to which one has been advantaged or disadvantaged by their racial category is not *directly* attributable to their role as descendants of slaves or slaveowners. Add the complexity that some Southern whites not only didn't own slaves but fought for the Union, and some blacks were slaveowners, and you get a sense of how endlessly and hopelessly complicated the reparations issue is.

CYD

As such, it molds personalities, attitudes, and differential reward structures. The question about reparations isn't whether they're justified, rather whether they're effective. Could they be seen as 'blood money' to allow an unjust system to survive?

I think that they're fully justified on the basis that America was originally settled partially on the basis of the existence of slavery, that the country's economy was originally built in large part on the backs of slaves (and that goes for New England shipping as well as for Southern plantations), recompense for the costs of exploitation and stigmatization after slavery was ended, and of the types of differential award structures you note. But does money get America off the hook?

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As a member of an oppressed class, gay folk, I want money paid to me to make up for all the benefits you straight bastards have reaped from a straight-based society full of laws and rules which benefit your history of straightness.

OK, since I CAN hide my orientation (or at least try...these wrists might be a problem), how about HALF of the amount paid the descendants of slaves. But to offset that I want DOUBLE reparations paid to folks who are both black AND gay.

Reparations is a silly idea which would open the floodgates of resentment/cash-based politics.

But that's just my oppressed/gay opinion.

disproportionately rewarded with the wealth of the land since we stole this land from the Native Americans. It took a lot of hard work for sure, but the opportunities and monetary rewards always benefitted white families more than any other group.

It's true that many people don't realize that it wasn't only hard work that got them there. It also applies to younger women who can acquire position and wealth through hard work instead of their good looks today. They don't realize how many of us before them "burned our bras" to open up the opportunities that they now enjoy.

So, Midori, how should these reparations take place and whom do we make pay? I believe Native Americans also deserve reparations although they seem to be doing all right on their own, relieving white people of their money through their gambling operations.

Should all white or to be more exact, people of European ancestry, pay a special tax for this, or should we levy a tax on the corporations that benefitted from the labor of slaves and underpaid minorities? I'm all for targeting this one source for sure.

I don't think it's fair to target those who had no part in these injustices, which means I think individuals should be exempt, because how many people of pure European ancestry do you find these days among natural born Americans, who can trace their lineage back to the Civil War when slavery was abolished.

Now what about those who come from old money? Really rich people who have inherited their money from the times of slavery and the Indian genocide I think should be required to give up their inheritance for this or at least a part of it. Would this be sufficient? There are people out there with globs of money that they have to hire offices of people just to manage their personal finances. I think these people should be persuaded to let go of that portion of their money made on the backs of others.

So I agree, there should be reparations, but the sticky question is, who is going to pay for this?