Jesus was not a Liberal, he was a compassionate conservative

ever heard of fundie say that?

I had no idea that Jesus was in favor of gun control and SUV's.

One of my favorite lines attributed to Jesus. It pretty much sums up Christianity's views on our relation to the state. It doesn't suggest how to change it, just to be a good citizen. Much of what Jesus is said to have said deals with being a good person and taking care of your neighbor.

Remember though Jesus said pay your taxes.

Jesus never confirmed or denied the need for democracy.
Jesus never confirmed or denied the need for state-run social sevices.
Jesus never confirmed or denied the need for gun control.
....
Jesus seemed to leave a bunch of things open to let us figuar out.

sounds like Caesar-lite to me!

now my coffee is all over my monitor, you bastard!

"Render Caesar." Has a nice ring.

Render unto God the things that are God's.

Some of those issues are too earth-centered. Ultimately, it is not this life that matters. It is eternity that matters. Anything that remains to be figured out should follow from the two commandments - love God, and love your neighbor.

...but his attitude of "I am the shepherd, you sheep should just follow me" is definitely not liberal. I still consider him a cult-leading lunatic with a few left-of-center views and a few right-of-center views, for his time.

but if you look at the results of what happened when people followed him (Acts 2;43, and Acts 4:32) it appears that the lunacy of God can match up with the wisdom of man.

nor the intention of Jesus.

A good shepherd knows how to guide his flock, which is a lot different than saying just follow me.
Sheep need to be guided, just like people.
Sheep and people are a good analogy.
Sheep act very much like people on the individual level, so the people of Jesus's era could easily relate to the shepherd analogy.
Some sheep are passive, some aggressive, some slow, some fast, some bashful, etc...

The primary reason for keeping a flock is so that you can fleece them.

I don't believe in god, but the jesus concept rings true (even if that idealization of humanity doesn't exist in most people...especially those who call themselves Christian)

I hope humans aren't TOO much like sheep. Sheep are stupid! Now, I'm frequently not too impressed with my fellow man, but SHEEP? Please, no. Goats, maybe.

or are too familiar with animals.

People could relate to the sheep analogy because sheep are to be guided, not necessarily led.

If you stand up in the front of sheep and say, "Let's go," few will follow.

If you stand within in the flock and do what you can to get each individual sheep moving, then they will go.
Each individual sheep, like each individual person, needs to be motivated in a different way.
Hence, the "guiding" aspect instead of "leading".

to ever walk the earth considering we are still talking about him today where his people are situated in the more advanced societies of our time.

Your anti-christian bias is showing also.

you could probably mount a strong argument that Jesus was a damned pinko commie. I'm mostly tongue-in-cheek, but not completely. There is a definite "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability" sort of vibe in the New Testament. If you have two coats or two donkeys, give away one of each. If you see someone hungry, feed him. The most blessed is he who gives away the most of what he has. At the end of the day, all workers get the same pay, no matter how long they work. Some real wealth transfer going down there.

Easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven...

The heart of the Christian message is very similar to what's at the heart of the Communist message. And frankly, if humans as a species lived according to either, the world would be a darn fine place to live. Everybody sharing everything, all taking only what they need and leaving the rest as an abundance for others. How cool would that be?

Sadly, Christianity in practice has done about as well as Communism has in practice. Human pride and greed come into play every time, and trump idealism almost always.

The "Christian" right is about as comfortable with much of Christ's message as they are with those of Marx and Engels. Most of the people who fall into the fundie category would make much better orthodox Jews, because they look to the Pentateuch for much of their morality (this is NOT meant as a criticism of Jews, I'm just pointing out that this group is much more attached to the Old Testament than the New... no implication that orthodox Jews and Christian fundamentalists are in any way similar or aligned or even live in the same neighborhoods. OKAY?). They like the jaw-smashing, baby-skull-crushing, eye-for-an-eye God. Except for some of those pesky commandments, they don't like those too much ("Thou shall not kill" really honks up the whole death penalty thing). Jesus is all soft and warm and loving and accepting, and at the same time he's very exacting and demanding of those who would be his followers. And he demands that they be soft and warm and loving and accepting, and that they give most of what they have to others who have less. He demands that they love and forgive and reconcile with their enemies. And he demands that they not judge others for their perceived failings.

None of this goes down well at all with the Christian right, for obvious reasons. How do you justify buying yet another Escalade, if you're supposedly following Jesus?

...if you just believe in Jesus hard enough (but not necessarily His message), you'll be rewarded with another Escalade. It's sort of an extension of the old "God helps those who help themselves" adage--something Jesus never said, by the way.

Who would Jesus bomb?

We "Liberals Like Christ" show just how LIBERAL people would be if, instead of following Paul of Tarsus' version of Christianity, as most do, they followed Jesus instead. Here are some excerpts of our site:
How can a "Christian" be Conservative,
when Christ was so Revolutionary ?
Only by IGNORING much of what Jesus Himself identified as his most important teaching !

While "Christian Conservatives" claim to be concerned about "conserving" authentic Christian doctrine, what they are actually "conserving" isn't the teaching of Jesus at all. It is time that Christ be rescued from these so-called "Christians" who are bringing so much shame upon his name. And Christ himself does that at this web site, in his own words, if people will only read what he himself said, as opposed to what others falsely say about him.
Here is the way Jesus saw himself :
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me;
he has appointed me
to preach Good News to the poor;
he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted
and to announce that the blind shall see,
that captives shall be released
and the downtrodden shall be freed
(i.e. liberated) from their oppressors."
{Luke 4:18}
And THIS is what Jesus himself explicitly identified as his and the Bible's most important instructions :
"Sir, which is the most important command in the laws of Moses?" Jesus replied, "This is the first and greatest commandment: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.'
The second most important is similar: 'Love your neighbor as much as you love yourself.'
All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets stem from these two laws and are fulfilled if you obey them. Keep only these and you will find that you are obeying all the others."
{ Matthew 22:36-40 }
While "Christian Conservatives" are fond of saying : "Charity begins at home," that is about as far from the teaching of Jesus and the Bible as one can get. In his "preview of the Last Judgement" { Matthew 25 } , Jesus spells out what HE means by "loving" one's neighbor, what it entails, and in the process, he makes it clear that loving neighbors who are hungry, thirsty, naked, homeless, sick, imprisoned, or otherwise afflicted is what he expects his followers to do.

In his famous "Beatitudes", i.e. recommendations, he highly recommends:.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness (justice), for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake (for promoting justice for all), for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." { Matthew 5 }

In his very important "Parable of the Good Samaritan" in which he lays out what the second half of the two greatest commandments means, Jesus made a NON-BELIEVER the model for all believers:
"But a despised Samaritan* (a heretic) came along, and when he saw him, he felt deep pity. Kneeling beside him the Samaritan soothed his wounds with medicine and bandaged them. Then he put the man on his donkey and walked along beside him till they came to an inn, where he nursed him through the night. The next day he handed the innkeeper two silver coins and told him to take care of the man. 'If his bill runs higher than that,' he said, ' I'll pay the difference the next time I am here.' "

Then there's the wonderful example he set for his followers in John 8: 2--11 :
"Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, sir." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you."

{ Luke 18 : 9-14 }
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were were righteous and regarded others with contempt:
"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee (a Jerry Falwell type) and the other a tax collector (a Bill Clinton Carter type). The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.'
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'
I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted." Go the source of the above for MORE at
at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike .
WE are the Answer to the "Christian Coalition" & "Religious Right" .
YOU are the way to get the word out, because unlike THEM,
WE are the friends of the POOR and the downtrodden,
who can't give US the kind of support that
the RICH give to our opponents.

I have been arguing this to my "fundie" co-workers for 10 years.

Your site is a good place to visit...I enjoy it.

Instead of the orthodox Eastern rule of murdering homosexuals, prostitutes, and forbidding disabled people from participating in religion, Paul made a place for all of them in the Christian church.

That was 2000 years ago, so I guess now Paul would be considered a conservative, but he certainly wasn't at the time. If anything, Paul was to the left of Jesus and James.

Edit:

by orthodox Eastern, I don't mean the Christian Eastern Orthdox church, I mean "Eastern" as in the pagan and Jewish religions and cults common in the eastern parts of the Roman empire.

Liberalism is about more than simply not killing gays and prostitutes and allowing the disabled to participate in worship. The main difference between cons and libs is that cons rely on "argument frorm authority" (with the "authority" most often being the Bible) while libs believe in the individual's ability to determine right from wrong using reason and logic.

By this criteria, Paul was as conservative as they get.

How's this - show me an ancient Jewish or Christian writer more liberal than Paul.

By giving his blessing to slavery, Paul has helped White European Conservatives keep other races "in their place" :
{ Titus 2:9-10 : } "Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior."
{ Ephesians 6: 5-8 : } "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free."
{ 1 Cor. 7: 21--24 : } "Were you a slave when called? Do not be concerned about it. Even if you can gain your freedom, make use of your present condition now more than ever. For whoever was called in the Lord as a slave is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was free when called is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of human masters. In whatever condition you were called, brothers and sisters, there remain with God."
{ 1 Tim. 6:1-5 : } "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties.
Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth."

---

Paul has helped Conservatives keep women "in their place" :
{ 1 Cor.: 34--35 : } "Women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
{1 Tim. : 9-15 : } . . . "also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, but with good works, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty."
{ Titus 2: 3--5 : } "Likewise, tell the older women to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be self-controlled, chaste, good managers of the household, kind, being submissive to their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited."
{ 1 Corinthians 11:14-16 : } " For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. . . Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled?. Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if anyone is disposed to be contentious -- we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.
{ 1 Corinthians 7: 29--40 } But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away. I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin are anxious about the affairs of the Lord, so that they may be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to put any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and unhindered devotion to the Lord. If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his fiancee, if his passions are strong, and so it has to be, let him marry as he wishes; it is no sin. Let them marry. But if someone stands firm in his resolve, being under no necessity but having his own desire under control, and has determined in his own mind to keep her as his fiancee, he will do well. So then, he who marries his fiancee does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better. A wife is bound as long as her husband lives. But if the husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, only in the Lord. But in my judgment she is more blessed if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God.
While Paul reflected the male chauvanism of his world, see the refreshingly liberal view of women that Jesus expressed in his words and his deeds. Sadly, in too many Christian homes and communities, Paul's view has prevailed over Jesus' view!
{Romans 1:18 thru 2:3 : } "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those (non-believers) who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools; and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
For this reason (and as punishment earned) God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. They know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die--yet they not only do them, but even applaud others who practice them.
Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are (unless you are Paul of Tarsus), when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. You say, "We know that God's judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth." Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?"
{ 1 Corinthians 6:9--10 : }
"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers -- none of these will inherit the kingdom of God."
{ 1 Timothy 1: 8--11:}
"Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. This means understanding that the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me."

---

Some of Paul's writings have even made it easier for tyrants to conserve their power to control and oppress everyone :
Fundamentalists claim to believe that all of Scripture is equally inspired by God. That would apply especially to their favorite Bible author, Paul, who gave the following perfectly clear instructions, regarding obedience to one's political leaders (no matter how evil they may be), in his
Letter to the Romans 13:1-7
" Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them--taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. "

See even more at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PaulvsAll
and see the whole Pauline underpining of Fundamentalist Christianity at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/ForSalvation .

I have always thought that the Beatitudes were very liberal sounding. I thought that "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God" would have made a good bumper sticker leading up to the gulf war.

I really appreciate the work that you've put into your message, and the way you have tied it back over and over to the words of Jesus.

Man, you want to see a right-wing pseudo-Christian spin like the Tazmanian Devil? Just throw Matthew 25 at them. Works every single time.

Not only was Jesus a liberal, he was also a socialist!

To categorize him as either is incorrect.

People need to understand that the world was a much different place than today and people were treated much differently, depending on their station in life, than they are today.

For example, the whole shepherd analogy would resonate with the people of the 1st century in the Middle East, but it is a foreign concept to us today.

nt

See what we mean when we use those words at
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Liberals
and it's hard to escape the fact that Jesus
was infinitely more LIBERAL than CONSERVATIVE,
i.e. caring about justice and compassion for all
as opposed to conserving the advantaged of the few.

...the classical version of conservatism means that you keep the present order intact.
Jesus was not about political or economic revolution.
He was about spiritual revolution.

If he was LIBERAL, he would have rejected the existing political and religious insitutions of the day, which he really did not.
He rejected some of the practices of those in the institutions, but not the institutions themselves.
Hence, conservative thought.
Liberal would mean you reject the existing order.

I know, there may be an exception, but that was the basic rule.

sounds like a Bush campaign slogan

Jesus loved everybody. Conservatives can't come close to that.

Because I've yet to meet a compassionate conservative that didn't lack in the compassion department.

but that doesn't change the fact that they are worshipping a diety that demands complete slavish devotion or you are tortured for eternity. That's devil worship. Personally, I'm a Christian, and it's about loving my fellow human beings, the exact opposite.