Ok, I will now bash ONE Democratic nominee

I am sorry to do this, but Kucinich is done mith me. He wasn't high on my list to begin with. I am sorry, but I never considered him "electable" to begin with. Last night's performance was pitiful, and embarassing.

Flame away, Kucinich fans, he sets a good standard for you.

There are now 2 I will no longer consider voting for... Kucinich and Lieberman.

what will they do if he doesn't win the nomination?

what was it about Dennis K. that turned you off? Someone else posted that he was "crude". I have to admit I was feeding my pets and doing some other stuff during the candidates' speeches-did I miss something that Dennis K. said?

This is not the WWE.

It was "Where were you on NAFTA, Howard? Tell the people..."
"What's your record on tax cuts, Richard?" The people want to know."

He was very hostile, and came off as a whacko. Way too early for that crap to start. Even Al Sharpton made a joke about it.

Dennis needs to cut back on the Starbucks, and Napoleon complex, IMO.

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:)

What did he say or do?

Dennis K. was to be the last to speak, and some kind of technical difficulty (weather?) knocked him off the monitor. Maybe something he said during that time? :shrug:

they were before which was energized union folks. I think they were feeding off the energy of their greatest support. I thought it was a stupid move for Lieberman to promote vouchers to a union crowd. He certainly can't win without the biggest source of Dem support.

I must admit Lieberman, Kerry and Gephardt seemed a bit pale and uninspiring stacked up against the energy of the other candidates but I wouldn't rule any but Lieberman out.

DUMB move, but at least he was honest - which is good because now I can definitely move on(although he never had a chance with me anyway). Did you hear the boos? I'm sure some of the teachers in the crowd loved that.

Most of the candidates were solid if not spectacular. Braun fumbled a bit in her closing remarks. Kucinich looked like a whacko. And Lieberman,was, well... Lieberman. Everyone else was pretty sharp, IMO.

I liked that he was against the war, but everything else I've gotten to know from him ain't the greatest. His campaign seems pretty directionless and not ready for the big leagues.

Maybe in time he can develop into a leader, but not this time, sorry.

I'm going for Dean

I just hope Kucinich, Lieberman, Sharpton, Graham, Braun and Edwards drop out soon. We're really looking bad with this many people running for president.

It's really going to be down to Dean, Kerry, or Gephardt. Which ever one wins, I hope they take one of the others as their running mate. They're all pretty good (although my least favorite pick is Gephardt, who I personally don't think can win without some more lefty-ness).

I don't think the number of candidates the Dems have running right now has anything to do with anything. Just because Rush and his ilk keep mentioning it . . . well that's about all it means.

or Governor. Maybe he is using this race as a way to get contributors for a statewide run.

You are correct! Give the man his prize!

nt

But I know there are some Dems in Lakewood (Kucinich's district) that want to challenge him in a primary next spring. It's an overwhelmingly Democratic District and a lot of the Dems don't care much for a couple speech's he gave here concerning the Green Party. Considering the Green party doesn't even really exist here it was seen as really weird.

But, it would be great if he could parlay this into a Senate seat or governorship.

I could win bar bets. If the person is really hostile and derogatory toward Dennis, then it's a good bet that they're for Dean. Or possibly Clark. One of the conservative ones, anyhow.

It'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

I'm undecided. But I'll give you points for effort.

Kerry, Dean and Clark are all at the top of my list. Guess that makes me conservative.

I spot whackos from the left or right, and I call them as I see them. Take the blinders off...

is very much in line with much of my outlook.

I also like his healthcare plan.

He did not seem whacko at all. He seemed to have "fire in the belly".

Why is his anger wrong? Because he confronted Dr. Dean about the retirement age thing?

Fire in the belly? Get the man an antacid, quick!

Kucinich would be my second choice if I thought he had a chance. I save my hostility for Lieberman, Gephardt, and Kerry.
Nice of you to try to stir up some unwarranted antagonism, though.
:eyes:

addressing that is more useful than pointing out others' political peccadilloes

It's unfair to dismiss someone's opinion as simply the thoughtless expression of an irrational bias or grudge. Is it possible to dislike Kucinich without being a Dean supporter?

This morning is the first few times I've heard THAT particular argument.

Yeah, it was sad because this is NOT Kucinich. He is received so well when he speaks without shouting. And THAT look, the little pout after Dean blasted back. Poor Dennis.

Kucinich got the most applause both right before he made his closing comments and after he made them.


Objectively speaking- Edwards came across the absolute best last night. He was a real class act.

I can understand why rich people and the corporate media would try to pin him as a "lunatic" - isn't that how MTP slurred him?

It's true though - to the rich, Kucinich's positions make him a lunatic - these people honestly believe anyone who thinks that we are the equal to them is crazy.

Let's not forget that the vast majority of Americans are working or middle class.

I am "working class". It was not his ideas that were "lunatic", it was his presentation.

Not the message, the messenger.

and now there's the reason I won't be voting Democratic party in 2004...Kucinich is the only viable liberal candidate (outside of Moseley-Braun and Sharpton who have even less chance) so you folks are only screwing yourselves.

This race is not about electing the most viable liberal candidate. It is about beating *.

Kucinich doesn't stand a chance. Especially with performances like last night's.

Go ahead, vote 3rd party, then we can all enjoy 4 more years. Maybe with a little luck, they won't be as bad as the first 4? Is that what you're thinking?

Practicality trumps idealism when faced with such dire straits.

while the left vote runs away from the Democratic party

You're like the band on the Titanic.

When you're unemployed or drafted to the frontline in Syria.

The alarm clock is ringing, are you gonna wake up, or keep hitting SNOOZE?

I consider myself part of "the left vote".

So your point is moot.

Or will this degrade down to "I'm more left than you"?

A truly "liberal" candidate would not pledge to end the WTO. He or she would rather pledge to use the U.S.' economic and political clout (that is, whatever it hasn't dissipated in the idiotic actions of the past 2 years) to spearhead its progressive reform.

Do you think 3rd world countries really want the U.S. and other wealthy countries to give in completely to their farm and labor sectors' protectionist desires? No--these countries want fair trade (or some kind of open trade) and fair access to American textile and agricultural markets. Debt relief would of course be a very good thing too.

Also, it seems to me that the most "liberal" candidate would have a better record regarding abortion and free speech.

And don't even start about "viability"...

This isn't to say that I don't think DK's contribution in running isn't a good thing. It's good that he's speaking out against BushCo's lies in a forceful manner and pushing hard for a number of strongly progressive positions. I just wonder, when I read comments like yours, whether it mis doing more good or harm in promoting progressive change in the U.S., due to the divisive nature of flirting with "Green-ism" (which I sometimes think is more about being "radical" than "progressive" or "liberal").

I just don't think this man has the foresight to be a good presidential candidate.

He definetly had the most pro labor views last night. He could have had the crowd in a frenzy for him. He stated unequivocally that he would repeal NAFTA and end the WTO, very pro labor positions that likely no other candidate would support.

That message could have made him the strongest candidate leaving that debate. But what did he do instead? He removed all of the attention that could have been on his message to his calling out Dean and Gep. That was stupid. I bet the first thing people who watched that debate think of when they think of Kuci is him calling out those two rather than what he said. Very poor decisions on his part.

It would also help if he didn't shout every answer. I think he does have short-person syndrome, and I think his behavior is taking him out of the race...which is a shame because his message, positions, and voting record could allow him to win the race.

He specifically picked on those two, which made his strategy all the more transparent. Dean is, what the media calls, "flavor of the month", and Gep is obviously the strongest with labor at this point.

So he was aiming high... but it came across as mean, desperate and obvious.

I think Kucinich wants to really separate himself from the others (a not unwise decision) but going to yelling all of his answers is NOT the best way to do that.

I know that his candidacy is at best a moonshot. But I'd hoped that he'd at least get enough momentum that the others would see value in pursuing some of his ideas and issues. But if he continues on like last night, he's gonna deep-six everything he's been working for.

saw him sleeping during Blair's speech! Unbelieveable! I am with you. No Dennis and no Joe. Yuck factor too high with these guys.