But the officer, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski of the 800th Military Police Brigade, said the special high-security cellblock at the Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, where the abuses took place had been under the tight control of a separate group of military intelligence officers who had so far avoided any public blame.

In her first public comments about the brutality — which drew wide attention and condemnation after photographs documenting it were broadcast Wednesday night by CBS News — General Karpinski said that while the reservists involved were "bad people" and deserved punishment, she suspected they were acting with the encouragement, if not at the direction, of military intelligence units that ran the special celblock used for interrogation.

"We're disposable," she said of the military's attitude toward reservists. "Why would they want the active-duty people to take the blame? They want to put this on the M.P.'s and hope that this thing goes away. Well, it's not going to go away."

She said the special cellblock, known as 1A, was one of about two dozen in the large prison and was essentially off limits to soldiers who were not part of the interrogations.

But she said she did not visit Cellblock 1A, in keeping with the wishes of military intelligence officers who, she said, worried that unnecessary visits might interfere with their interrogations of Iraqis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/international/middleeast/02ABUS.html

by the US army...
Mercenaries to the rescue. HOW ARE WE PUTTING UP WITH THIS? And after I hear the "Republican Love" sent to the Guy James show, I feel very discouraged.

ass but she's just as responsible. As was as the people she commands. They belong in prison.

some truth to it. There were things going on there that were not part of the administration of a prison run by people who are not accountable to the administrators of that prison. What ever you think about this lady she is but a bit player in all this. Because of national security, which will be the excuse the real bandits are going to get away scott free and WILL DO IT AGAIN. I can promise you that. Those army personnel in the pictures did not do that crap unless somebody gave them an indication that it would be acceptable. It just would not happen without encouragement or conspiracy.

This has been bothering me since day 2... I can't after 20 years in the Military, swallow the story that these are the only culprits or possibly even the "real" culprits. The military and the media have been to keen to keep insisting that it was 6 lower-enlisted people who did this- 1 SSG and a few Specialists and Privates, all poorly trained Reservists. Where are the others? Where are the 17 who were suspended back in November and mysteriously "whisked" away? And does the Army really expect us to believe that that SSG reported directly to a Brigadier General?

There are wholes in this story and my gut tells me this is only the tip of an iceberg that they don't want us looking at too closely.

I am in no way apologizing for these people but where are the others? When did SSG Frederick and SS Ilse show up? After the investigation? Right before the 17 were mysteriously whisked away to serve as the fall guys?

What she says about them being the fall guys stands up.

They were dumb. They got played big time and thought what they were doing was acceptable, normal, a "great job". But they are nobodies in what must be an even bigger scandal.

Did you see the 60 minutes interview? I found it MOST peculiar that SSG Frederick didn't have a lawyer at his side. If there's one thing the military does it's give you a lawyer to defend yourself- where was his? And what with his statement that there were only 7 people running the prison of 900 people? It just doesn't compute.

Frederick also says there were far too few soldiers there for the number of prisoners: “There was, when I left, there was over 900. And there was only five soldiers, plus two non-commissioned officers, in charge for those 900 -- over 900 inmates."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml

====

The information in Frederick's CYA journal is pretty damning:

'I asked for help and warned of this but nobody would listen'

Saturday May 1, 2004
The Guardian

After an investigation was launched into the alleged abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison, Staff Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick decided to keep a journal to ensure his side of the story would be revealed. The journals seen by the Guardian begin on January 19 2004 and detail the conditions of the prisoners, apparent torture, and the death of one inmate after interrogation.

<snip>

· Use of dogs

"MI has encouraged and told us great job that they were now getting positive results and information. CID has been present when the military working dogs were used to intimidate prisoners at MI's request. CID agent told the soldier working 1A to stress one prisoner out as much as possible that he wanted to talk to him the next day. On the 18th Jan 2004 an unruly prisoner with a broken arm. The prisoner was placed in a head lock and choked out in the presence of CID agent team."

<snip>

· Death in custody

"Back around Nov an OGA prisoner was brought to 1A. They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately 24 hours in the shower in the 1B. The next day the medics came in and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away. This OGA was never processed and therefore never had a number."

<snip>

· January 22, 2004

"Dear Mimi,

I am feeling so bad at how the army has come down on me. They always said that shit rolls downhill and guess who is at the bottom? I have asked for help and warned of this and nobody would listen. I told the battalion commander that I didn't like the way it was going and his reply was 'Don't worry about it. I give you permission to do it'.

"I just wish I could talk to someone about what is going on but I was ordered not to talk to anyone besides my attorney and CID. As far as trusting someone, DON'T."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1207452,00.html

==================

What is bizarre is that it was the stories of women being raped in the Fallujah prison which really started the uprising and led to the deaths of those 4 mercenaries (who had been seen shooting women and children in the back of their heads with hollow-points). I did not keep this story and could kick myself but women were being released from that prison and sent out into the streets in various stages of shocking undress and the Iraqis were outraged over this. Here's one story from JihadUnspun that puts a different perspective on this...

We must ask ourselves why we are so happily handed 6 sacrificial lambs all accused of tormenting men when it initial outrage was over women. Even if some prefer not to give any credence to Arab news, common sense tells you that sick minds that dreamt up these things did not spare the women in that prison.

==================

((with thanks to Chookie))

<snip>

The real facts are that there is report after report of US abuses; on the internet, in the back pages of our newspapers, in personal accounts that with a little luck will now make their way to mainstream press. This is not an isolated few - this is business as usual for the US military and their collaborating band of thugs in Iraq. Is it any wonder that bodies of US soldiers who fall into Iraqi hands are mutilated and displayed?

The pictures of US soldiers dishonoring Iraqi detainees came as no surprise to JUS (Jihad Unspun). We have been reporting alleged abuses since shortly after the fall of Baghdad. We received several reports over the past months of US soldiers raping Iraqi woman, only to find these photos posted to US porn sites. While these photos and reports were put down to "loose" Iraqi women (which shows a fundamental understanding of Iraq's religion and culture) we discovered later that those who were detained, some at Abu Ghraib prison, who refused to provide US officials with intelligence where given a prod to garner "cooperation" by rounding up the female relatives, forcing then into sexual acts that were filmed and then shown to their husbands, fathers and brothers and to the general public through porn sites. Now the CBS 60 Minutes II report legitimizes the incidents we have been reporting all along.

The Arab world is outrage. The Muslim Ummah is outraged. Iraqis are outraged and so are people of conscience everywhere. I pity the next soldiers that fall into Resistance hands. And contrary to its belief - America can be defeated and most likely will be defeated and dangled at the end of its own pathetic rope for all the world to see.

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=2811&list=/home.php&

I know a lot of people that have never been in the service simply don't understand how the military really works. There is simply no way a 1 star general reserve or active duty was running any prison or any other organization in any branch of the military and not reporting to serveral higher ups on a daily basis. I can't see the Army running a prison any where in the world were there are not daily inspections of both the troops and the prisoners. I don't buy that because this a war zone things were done different or things had to be curtailed in the care of the prisoners.

If anything there was probably more knowledge of what was going on there then usually precisely because there would be so much interest from outside organizations and the things Saddam did when he ran the prisons. If there wasn't then this is major incompetence of the first order.

The Army has hundereds of years in taking role calls and accounting for personnel in and under the most difficult circumstances. Sure a person can get lost or abused in the system now again, but normal happens in areas where people have become complacent and don't think that there is any reason to worry about something going on. This is not that type of situation. If the President, SecDef, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and all their deputies, both uniform and civilian, are making visits over there how navie to we have to be to not understand that there is no way they wouldn't be concerned about the way POWs and plain prisoners under our care are being treated. Unless of course they didn't want to know for some reason.

I started a silly little thread about this earlier, here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1509853

This is sinister, and far-reaching, and routine, and beyond troubling. Of course, every time we ask questions about the horrors committed at Abu Ghraib, we'll be called soldier-haters and the like. We'll be called terrorist-sympathizers who are providing aid and comfort to the enemy, by pointing out the shortcomings of a handful of "rotten apple" soldiers.

The point I tried to make in my thread is the same as your points, MSgt (Marines! :-)) and Tinoire. I just didn't do it nearly as eloquently as you both have.

Thank you Ma'am

It is a pleasure to salute you :) <or am I confusing you with someone else?>

This is not quite the battlefield I had in mind but it's an important one and I hope my Liberal brothers and sisters who are vets will keep identifying themselves LOUDLY because I kid you not, nothing sends the freepers into more of a demoniac frenzy than to hear fellow vets speaking out.

(and if you're still in, just say you're a vet in order not to have anyone accusing you of endangering National Security blah blah crap)

I'll hop in on your thread.

And of course, I proudly recognize your service in as an Army Master Sgt, Tin. I just thought it was cute that you asked MSgt if he was Army.

}(

Those Marines can be a little sensitive when we call them soldiers.

;-)

Now drop your salute so I can drop mine.

:loveya:

I've read through this thread and the horrors are so numerous I can't keep them all straight.

But this snip: "What is bizarre is that it was the stories of women being raped in the Fallujah prison which really started the uprising and led to the deaths of those 4 mercenaries (who had been seen shooting women and children in the back of their heads with hollow-points). (emphasis added)

What?? Are these the mercenaries from Blackwater who were killed and one of the bodies hung from the bridge?

If so, then no wonder they were killed. God in heaven!!! This just goes on and on and on. :cry:

are at least, the blog I found said that Blackwater Security "consultants" had been doing that the week before the rights broke out. It was also in an Iraqi blog that I read that women were being released half-naked from the Abu Ghraib prison which outraged the Iraqis because everyone knew what type of rooms were in that prison.

I can't remember the blog now but I had linked to it at DU for both stories...

I'll look to see if I book-marked it.

On edit: Ok... Found something but not quite that:

In a brief but intense firefight, Thomas hit one of the attackers with a single shot from his M4 carbine at a distance he estimates was 100 to 110 yards.

He hit the man in the buttocks, a wound that typically is not fatal. But this round appeared to kill the assailant instantly.

“It entered his butt and completely destroyed everything in the lower left section of his stomach ... everything was torn apart,” Thomas said.

Thomas, a security consultant with a private company contracted by the government, recorded the first known enemy kill using a new — and controversial — bullet.

The bullet is so controversial that if Thomas, a former SEAL, had been on active duty, he would have been court-martialed for using it. The ammunition is “nonstandard” and hasn’t passed the military’s approval process.

<snip>

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2426405.php

You can watch a Streaming video of this blended-metal bullet technology taken at the 2003 Shoot-out at Blackwater on the manufacturer's site here:
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/bullets/


The ammo that Thomas used was a so-called “blended-metal-technology” round, manufactured by RBCD of San Antonio and distributed by LeMas Ltd. of Little Rock, Ark. For the past four years, RBCD has been featured during AFJ’s annual “Shoot-out at Blackwater” training center (August AFJ), where the ammo’s unique performance has impressed most of the special operators observing its effects. Designed to release maximum energy in soft tissue, the “armor-piercing limited penetration” ammo will bore through hard targets, such as steel and glass, but will not pass through a person or even several layers of drywall. ((watch the video to see what they mean by "will not pass through a person))

http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/bullets/

---

What I can report from Falluja is that there is no ceasefire, and apparently there never was. Iraqi women and children are being shot by American snipers. Over 600 Iraqis have now been killed by American aggression, and the residents have turned two football fields into graveyards. Ambulances are being shot by the Americans. And now they are preparing to launch a full-scale invasion of the city.

http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=5308§ionID=15

===

The Associated Press reported that on April 15, a Humvee with a loudspeaker blasted heavy metal music in the city and said in Arabic: “May the ambulances in Fallujah have enough fuel to pick up the bodies of the mujahadeen.” Moments later an AC-130 gunship pounded the city with its big guns.

“Nothing could have prepared me for what I saw in Fallujah yesterday,” Dr. Najeeb al-Ani told Fairweather. “There is no law on Earth that can justify what the Americans have done to innocent people.”

“I never saw a more despicable and evil action by the Americans,” Dr. Tariq Atham told United Press International. “Even Sharon or Saddam are better. They shot children and women in the face and neck every time.”

Dr. Jamal Taha, a doctor at Al Yarmuk hospital told The Telegraph: “The U.S. is the most developed country in the world, but in Iraq they are barbarians.” By April 13, Fallujah hospital officials reported 508 Iraqi dead, with 1,224 injured. Of those killed 298 were women and children- 58 under the age of five.
“When you see a child five years old with no head, what can you say?” a doctor in Fallujah asked Pacifica Radio.

“We buried many in the stadium for football until it became full. When you are burying you cannot stay long because they will just shoot you. So we use the shovel. Just dig a big hole and put a whole family in the hole and leave as soon as possible so we are not shot.”

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=47820 (Original report compiled by American Free Press)

That's about the best I can do on short notice since I had most of that saved in a word document.

Peace

I didn't have much sympathy for those guys before. Now, well....I guess you reap what you sow.

back at the time, which say what she is saying now, then she should be able to use those at her trial and get the focus of the inquiry where it belongs.

I wonder if those memos exist? If not why not?

(forgive me if you already know this, I like to paste these things for other people and also so that months later, when people search, the pertinent information is preserved even after the original story has been archived with a fee for retrieval)

I'd like to note for people that Reservists train with their units and that when an entire Reserve unit is activated, the entire unit leaves WITH the leaders who were responsible for training them during their week-end and 2-week trainings.

Ultimately, Karpinski was in charge of this unit and deployed with soldiers so ill-trained that, well you guys saw the pictures.

She's NOT the only guilty one but she accepted the responsability and did a DAMN POOR job.

I agree with you about the memos.

=================================

<snip>

At the Article 32 hearing, the Army informed Frederick and his attorneys, Captain Robert Shuck, an Army lawyer, and Gary Myers, a civilian, that two dozen witnesses they had sought, including General Karpinski and all of Frederick’s co-defendants, would not appear. Some had been excused after exercising their Fifth Amendment right; others were deemed to be too far away from the courtroom. “The purpose of an Article 32 hearing is for us to engage witnesses and discover facts,” Gary Myers told me. “We ended up with a c.i.d. agent and no alleged victims to examine.” After the hearing, the presiding investigative officer ruled that there was sufficient evidence to convene a court-martial against Frederick.

<snip>

Myers, who was one of the military defense attorneys in the My Lai prosecutions of the nineteen-seventies, told me that his client’s defense will be that he was carrying out the orders of his superiors and, in particular, the directions of military intelligence. He said, “Do you really think a group of kids from rural Virginia decided to do this on their own? Decided that the best way to embarrass Arabs and make them talk was to have them walk around nude?”

<snip>

The problems inside the Army prison system in Iraq were not hidden from senior commanders. During Karpinski’s seven-month tour of duty, Taguba noted, there were at least a dozen officially reported incidents involving escapes, attempted escapes, and other serious security issues that were investigated by officers of the 800th M.P. Brigade. Some of the incidents had led to the killing or wounding of inmates and M.P.s, and resulted in a series of “lessons learned” inquiries within the brigade. Karpinski invariably approved the reports and signed orders calling for changes in day-to-day procedures. But Taguba found that she did not follow up, doing nothing to insure that the orders were carried out. Had she done so, he added, “cases of abuse may have been prevented.”

<snip>

Karpinski was rarely seen at the prisons she was supposed to be running, Taguba wrote. He also found a wide range of administrative problems, including some that he considered “without precedent in my military career.” The soldiers, he added, were “poorly prepared and untrained . . . prior to deployment, at the mobilization site, upon arrival in theater, and throughout the mission.”

General Taguba spent more than four hours interviewing Karpinski, whom he described as extremely emotional: “What I found particularly disturbing in her testimony was her complete unwillingness to either understand or accept that many of the problems inherent in the 800th MP Brigade were caused or exacerbated by poor leadership and the refusal of her command to both establish and enforce basic standards and principles among its soldiers.”

<snip>

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

... of the biggest, apparently most important, POW Prison in Baghdad?? What the hell is that?

No disrespect to reservists intended, nor implied. But, wtf?????

the Üntermenschen of the *MIC... :freak:

It's what they were supposed to have been training for and proficient at. But I'm with you- what a DUMB idea! Better to have an AD MP officer in charge


Last June, Janis Karpinski, an Army reserve brigadier general, was named commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade and put in charge of military prisons in Iraq. General Karpinski, the only female commander in the war zone, was an experienced operations and intelligence officer who had served with the Special Forces and in the 1991 Gulf War, but she had never run a prison system. Now she was in charge of three large jails, eight battalions, and thirty-four hundred Army reservists, most of whom, like her, had no training in handling prisoners.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

No disrespect to Reservists agreed but it always rankled me to see Reservists move in as if they were capable of soldiering when they didn't know squat because they'd been too busy with civilian affairs. The whole system sucks and the Reserve charade is a fiasco.

Anyway, she was in charge because that's how the chart had been drawn from the start:

-----

Organized on May 31, 1942 as the 800th Military Police Battalion it was quickly activated to support combat operations during World War II. The 800th saw action in two campaigns: New Guinea and Luzon. On April 16, 1986, the unit was re-designated as the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 800th Military Police Brigade (EPW).

A Brigadier General commands the 800th Military Police Brigade. The Brigade is comprised of approximately 1,700 soldiers spread over a two-state region. Subordinate elements are comprised of 25 units. Three of these units are subordinate peacetime battalions, one being military intelligence and two being military police. All three are located in New York. Six of these units are designated as Force Support Package (FSP). Additionally, the Brigade is comprised of four military intelligence detachments, a criminal investigation's detachment and three chemical companies. The specially trained military police and military intelligence units are designed to support the enemy prisoner of war mission that the Brigade assumed in April of 1986. When called into action, the Brigade is responsible for the command and control of Enemy Prisoner of War (EPW) Headquarters; and provides guidance, plans and procedures for EPW operations and doctrine for 14 wartrace battalions and subordinate units composed of over 4000 personnel.

On December 6, 1990, the Headquarters and Headquarters Company of the Brigade were activated in support of Operation Desert Storm. The Brigade Headquarters assumed the mission of command and control of allied enemy prisoner of war operations in the theatre of operations from December 1990 to June 1991. While in Saudi Arabia, the Brigade's assigned strength was over 7,300 personnel from 68 subordinate units. The 800th Military Police Brigade was responsible for the command, control and accounting of over 70,000 Iraqi allied enemy prisoners of war.

<snip>

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/800mp-bde.htm

was with Ms. England's group when she trained in the US?

England was in the 372nd MP Company based in Cumberland, MD. It was attached, when activated, to the 800th Military Police Brigade, based in Uniondale, N.Y. (Karpinski's unit).

Due to the way the Reserves work, I doubt that Company ever did any real training with the Brigade (which probably never did any real training either) and I doubt they ever did any joint exercise training due to the geographical distance.

I think I read somewhere that it was a temporary attachment but I'm not sure...

I think the answer is probably not but in all honesty, the Reserves don't train much.

One week-end a month and 2 weeks per year is hardly enought to learn how to tie your boots much less the finer points of combat duties. It's also one of the biggest jokes in the military that many units spend most of their time just bull-shitting.

Maybe someone else can give you more, that's the best I can do...

Peace

Most likely she was told to ignore the abuses by her superiors.

LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIES!

as franken would note ;->

Asked if the situation in Iraq was getting worse rather than better, he recalled that in his speech a year ago he had warned that the challenge was not over. "A year ago I did give the speech from the carrier, saying we had achieved an important objective, we had accomplished a mission, the removal of Saddam Hussein, and as a result there are no longer torture chambers, rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq.

"I also said there was still difficult work ahead. We've faced tough times. We've had some tough fighting, because there are some people who hate freedom. We are making progress, you bet."

more...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/01/wbush201.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/01/ixnewstop.html


peace

camps in America for people who vote wrong or say the wrong thing to the wrong person! If the GOPers do this there, and get away with it, then it's only a matter of time before they start it here on us! After the NOVEMBER sElection when the GOPers pass Patriot Acts II, III, IV, V, and so on, the Boyz will be ready to enforce Bushco Democracy here in the US of A! The writing is on the wall just read it and weep!

It was a bi-partisan effort.

I would say the following about the Patriot AcT:

as president I will commission a study of this act, to determine if it has actually, demonstrably prevented any terrorism, and also whether the new law has been used against people who aren't terrorists. I may advocate for Congress to repeal or revise the Patriot Act based on the results of the study.

Good one BP. Good to see you around.

"Pssst, pass the word". What a dreadful last 2 years.

in the interrogations and the whole seamy mess? Especially when they are in fact going to try to scapegoat her and these other dumb rednecks.

I am not excusing their guilt in all this, they can be guilty and a scapegoat all the same.

What are the best links regarding the role of the "contracting" companies used in the "information extraction"?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html


A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein.

One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him.

Hired guns from a wide array of private security firms are playing a central role in the US-led occupation of Iraq.

The killing of four private contractors in Falluja on March 31 led to the current siege of the city.

But this is the first time the privatisation of interrogation and intelligence-gathering has come to light. The investigation names two US contractors, CACI International Inc and the Titan Corporation, for their involvement in the functioning of Abu Ghraib.

Titan, based in San Diego, describes itself as a "a leading provider of comprehensive information and communications products, solutions and services for national security". It recently won a big contract for providing translation services to the US army, and its involvement in Abu Ghraib is believed to have been to provide translators.

the link!


La plus ca change...

"One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him."

Surely we can come up with some law somewhere to nail this rapist merc? Who has jurisdiction over rapist mercenaries paid by Rumsfeld?

Can Eliot Spitzer be let loose on these creeps?

I am so scared for all these prisoners AND our reservists stationed at that hell hole - but esp the women prisoners whom we have heard nothing about.

The truth of the matter is that they do not want to prosecute them. These problems were already identified in the past... Think Dyncorps in Yugoslavia...

Anyway here goes"



Opening Statement of Chairman Bill McCollum
on H.R. 3380, the "Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act of 1999"

Today the Subcommittee will consider H.R. 3380, the "Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act of 1999." This bill was introduced by Congressman Saxby Chambliss and I was pleased to be the original cosponsor of the bill. H.R. 3380 would amend the Federal criminal code to apply it to persons who commit criminal acts while employed by or otherwise accompanying the U.S. Armed Forces outside of the United States. It would also extend Federal criminal jurisdiction to persons who commit crimes abroad while a member of the Armed Forces but who are not tried for those crimes by military authorities before being discharged from the military.


Civilians have served with or accompanied the American Armed Forces in the field or ships since the founding of the United States. In recent years, however, the number of civilians present with our military forces in foreign countries has dramatically increased. Many of these civilians are nonmilitary employees of the Defense Department and contractors working on behalf of DOD. In 1996, there were more than 96,000 civilian employees of the Department of Defense working and living outside the United States.

Family members of American service personnel make up an even larger group of the civilians who accompany U.S. forces overseas. In 1999, there were almost 300,000 family members of military personnel and DoD civilian employees living abroad.

While military members who commit crimes outside the United States are subject to trial and punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, civilians are not. In most instances, American civilians who commit crimes abroad are also not subject to the criminal laws of the United States because the jurisdiction for those laws ends at our national borders. As a result of these jurisdictional limitations, American citizens who commit crimes in foreign countries can be tried and punished only by the host nation. Surprisingly, however, host nations are not always willing to prosecute Americans, especially when the crime involves acts committed only against another American or against property owned by Americans.

Because of this, each year incidents of rape, sexual abuse, aggravated assault, robbery, drug distribution, and a variety of fraud and property crimes committed by American civilians abroad go unpunished because the host nation declines to prosecute these offenses. And this problem has been compounded in recent years by the increasing involvement of our military in areas of the world where there is no functioning government -- such as Somalia, Haiti, and the Balkans. Because, in those places, no government exists at all to prosecute crimes, American civilians who commit crimes there go unpunished.

The bill before us today would close this gapping hole in the law by extending Federal criminal jurisdiction to crimes committed by persons employed by and accompanying the U.S. Armed Forces overseas. Specifically, the bill creates a new crime under Title 18 that would make it a crime to engage in conduct outside the United States which would constitute an offense under Title 18 if the crime had been committed within the United States. The new crime would apply only to two groups of people. First, persons employed by or who accompany the Armed Forces outside the United States. This group includes dependents of military members, civilian employees of the Department of Defense, and Defense Department contractors or subcontractors and their employees. This group also includes foreign nationals who are relatives of American military personnel or contractors, or who work for the Defense Department, but only to the extent that they are not nationals of the country where the act occurred or ordinarily live in that country.

The second group of people to whom the bill would apply are persons who are members of the Armed Forces at the time they commit a criminal act abroad but who later are discharged from the military without being tried for their crime. This portion of the bill is designed to authorize the government to punish persons who are discharged from the military before their guilt is discovered and who, because of that discharge, are no longer subject to court-martial jurisdiction.

We simply cannot allow violent crimes and crimes involving significant property damage to go unpunished when they are committed by persons employed by or accompanying our military. The only reason why these people are living in foreign countries is because our military is there and they have some connection to it. And so, our government has an interest in ensuring that they are punished for any crimes they commit there. Just as importantly, as many of the crimes going unpunished are committed against Americans and American property, our government has an interest in using its law to punish those who commit these crimes.

I wish to point out that both the Defense Department and the Justice Department support the legislation before the Subcommittee here today. The legislation is the product of close collaboration between the staff of the Subcommittee on Crime and the representatives of these agencies, and I am pleased that both Departments have seen fit to send representatives to our hearing today. I welcome all the witnesses before the Subcommittee today and look forward to receiving their testimony.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary/mcco0330.htm

That bill was passed...

-----------------------------

Office of the Command Counsel

UNCLASSIFIED
AMSEL-LG POINT PAPER 1 NOVEMBER 2002

SUBJECT: The Status of Contractors on the Battlefield
PURPOSE: To summarize the rules and regulations concerning the use of contractors on
the battlefield.
FACTS:
· The contract establishes the responsibilities of the Government and the
support contractor with respect to the use of contractors on the battlefield.
Every effort should be made, therefore, to specifically incorporate the
respective duties of the two parties from the outset of that agreement. AMC
has issued AMC-P 715-18 ‘Contracts and Contractors Supporting Military
Operations’. This pamphlet seeks to integrate operations and contracting for
support of operations. Included at Appendix C of the pamphlet is a
compilation of suggested contract special requirements. Specific contractual
areas that should be addressed include: pay, accounting for personnel,
logistics, risk assessment and mitigation, force protection, legal assistance,
central processing and departure point, identification cards, medical coverage,
clothing and equipment, weapons and training, vehicle and equipment
operation, passports/visas and customs, staging, living under field conditions,
morale, Status of Forces Agreement, tour of duty, health and life insurance,
management and next-of-kin notification.

<snip>

As a general rule, the UCMJ does not cover contractor personnel although
court-martial jurisdiction may be expanded to cover contractors in time of war.
The Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act of 2000 does provide for federal
jurisdiction over crimes committed outside of the United States. This
jurisdiction covers members of and persons employed by or accompanying the
Armed Forces. The Act allows the Secretary of Defense, under specified
conditions, to authorize DOD law enforcement personnel to arrest suspected
offenders outside the United States involved with crimes punishable by
imprisonment of more than one year.
BRIEFER: John Reynolds, AMSEL-LG-B, ext. 29780.
REVIEWED/APPROVED BY:

Mark Sagan
Deputy Chief Counsel

http://www.amc.army.mil/amc/command_counsel/resources/documents/newsletter03-2/encl01.pdf

From JAG

Civilians and dependent family members accompanying US forces abroad are normally considered subject to the terms of the applicable SOFA



--- While the HN may exercise its jurisdiction, the US commander does not have UCMJ authority over these persons.? Until very recently, the US had no way of obtaining jurisdiction over these personnel



--- If the HN waives primary jurisdiction to the US, the options of the commander are limited.? (See articles entitled Debarment and Family Member Misconduct, Chapter 9, this Deskbook.)



--- To remedy this problem, Congress passed the Military Extraterritoriality Jurisdiction Act of 2000. The Act criminalizes behavior that would have been a crime in the US punishable by more than one year in confinement. The provision applies not only to military members, but also to civilian dependents of military members as well as civilian contractors.

http://milcom.jag.af.mil/ch15/foreign.htm

of his own people needed to 'plea-bargain' to get out of jail.....


it got so crazy that people were lined up to cut deals even before they were indicted....so let the finger-pointing begin....

good prosecutors know that is the beginning of the end for these bush* criminals....and it is real clear that General Janis and others are just the 'little people', taking orders from the TOP....when the commander-in-chief orders assassinations and brags about KILLING....what can you expect at the lowest levels?

time for regime change....vote for Kerry...and WORK to get Kerry as President of the United States of America....
www.JohnKerry.com

Time to sit back, grab some popcorn and watch the show.

I hated that comment that night but he/she was right. It's going to be quite a show. I am devastated however that so many people have been hurt and are going to be hurt over this (Iraqis and innocent Americans who had NOTHING to do with this sickness).

This is what you get when you have an egocentristic attitude of "them or us," which the US has cultivated, with the help of GW Bush and company, since 911. This attitude allows us, and those who represent us, and those who supposedly fight for our interests, to view those on the other side as subhuman. And all kinds of things can be done to subhumans that we would never think of perpetrating on our own kind.

The torture of these soldiers is a natural outpouring of that attitude. It shouldn't surprise any of us.

for one... :hi:

peace

She let her troops mess up. She screwed the pooch and should spend some Leavenworth time. Nothing scapegoat about it.
John
As an officer, when your troops screw up, you pay. That's the deal.

Truth is, I'm surprised a general got caught up in all this. Usually it's a captain or a lieutenant or something (see My Lai).
John
But "woman" has nothing to do with it, IMHO.

I'm surprised at that too.

What about this guy? We hear nothing about him...

I am feeling so bad at how the army has come down on me. They always said that shit rolls downhill and guess who is at the bottom? I have asked for help and warned of this and nobody would listen. I told the battalion commander that I didn't like the way it was going and his reply was 'Don't worry about it. I give you permission to do it'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1207452,00.html

<<NAME PLEASE>> on that one too! ;)

That is the question. She alludes to a "separate group of military intelligence officers". Perhaps these officers "stovepiped" directly to the Pentagon.

any more than I question that she is a Reservist but it is a sad fact that the Military Command does not want women in combat and has no respect for them there.

Who knows why they're singling her out. I find it strange that they are because as I said in another thread there are quite a few Senior NCOs and Officers missing in the giant leap from SSG Frederick to BG Karpinski but in all fairness this is a huge scandal and she is the one in charge.

Last June, Janis Karpinski, an Army reserve brigadier general, was named commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade and put in charge of military prisons in Iraq. General Karpinski, the only female commander in the war zone, was an experienced operations and intelligence officer who had served with the Special Forces and in the 1991 Gulf War, but she had never run a prison system. Now she was in charge of three large jails, eight battalions, and thirty-four hundred Army reservists, most of whom, like her, had no training in handling prisoners.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

((Bottom line, I agree but the buck didn't go straight there nor should it stop there))

No AD CPTs? No O-6s?

It goes straight from a Staff Sergeant to a Brigadier General?

Don't you find that a little odd?

Whatever on earth happened to the Active Duty Intel people and MPs in that prison?

She did screw up, I will not apologize for any of them but she didn't screw up alone. And neither did that the 1 NCO and 5 lower-enliste sacrificial lambs.

Where are the officers and Senior NCOs who were supervising when this took place:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Remember these names:

Six suspects— Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick II, known as Chip, who was the senior enlisted man; Specialist Charles A. Graner; Sergeant Javal Davis; Specialist Megan Ambuhl; Specialist Sabrina Harman; and Private Jeremy Sivits—are now facing prosecution in Iraq, on charges that include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty toward prisoners, maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts. A seventh suspect, Private Lynndie England, was reassigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, after becoming pregnant.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Ask yourself where some of these people are:

SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile.

The military-intelligence officers have “encouraged and told us, ‘Great job,’ <<NAMES PLEASE>>

“CID has been present when the military working dogs were used to intimidate prisoners at MI’s request.” <<NAMES PLEASE>>

At one point, Frederick told his family, he pulled aside his superior officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Phillabaum, the commander of the 320th M.P. Battalion, and asked about the mistreatment of prisoners. “His reply was ‘Don’t worry about it.’”

“They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.” <<NAMES PLEASE>>

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

...is implicated. This is very serious shit.

Oh, the ironly in the caption!



US Brigadier General Janis Karpinski stands before the gallows of the torture chamber inside the notorious Abu Gharib prison in 2003. Karpinski is among seven US officers being investigated following claims that soldiers under their command mistreated Iraqi detainees(AFP/File/Robert Sullivan)

U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, center left, accompanied by U.S. Brig Gen. Janice Karpinski, left, tours Iraq (news - web sites)'s Abu Ghraib prison on the outskirts of the capital Baghdad in this July 20, 2003 file photo. Images were shown on America's CBS television programme ' 60 Minutes II ' on Wednesday April 28 , 2004 which allegedly showed abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. military police at the Abu Ghraib prison late

Paul Wolfowitz at Abu Ghraib with Janice Karpinski in July 20, 2003.
I wonder if we could correlate the dates of atrocities with his visit. He is after all U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense. He is extremely accountable and can't fake ignorance because he was there.
(Hey Paul, didn't the screaming bother you at all?)

The Iraqis will blame all of them

Our boys gonna catch holy hell.

How sad.

Even the freepers are admitting this and beginning to discuss just pulling out now.

We're going to catch holy hell regardless.

"US out of the Middle East!"

I wonder if Spc Lynddie England ever thought about future or current American POW's when she said, about one of her unit's captives, "He's getting HARD!"

:grr: :mad: :grr:

unthinking and just down-right criminally irresponsible.

Oh God. I can't look at his face. Can only pray that his captors see him as a human being.

And people want us to SHUT UP? I can NOT believe that!

Shut up and it will all go away. Like those 600+ coffins. Oh God, how many more if we don't get those troops home NOW?

"Oh God. I can't look at his face. Can only pray that his captors see him as a human being."

That face haunts me...He's the same age as my brother. x(

:SIGH:

Perhaps this is petty, but I gotta ask.

If it were a male general, would you have called him "General John" or "General Mike" in your subject?

The chain of command goes to the person in our government that hired and approved of outside contractors and intelligence officers doing the interrogation of prisoners. I'm sorry, but there is no way that they didn't know what was going on.

They also know what is going on in Guantanamo Bay. The same type crap is going on there. We have seen the prisoners paraded about with bags on their heads. We have all heard the stories.

They are using outside contractors so they can't be prosecuted. Their mistake was letting regular soldiers participate.

The world needs to know who these intelligence officers are. They need to know who the contractors are. There should be a public outcry for an investigation into this matter.

If our government is going to be torturing prisoners (most of the ordinary citizens) we need to know who approved this decision.

They will try to give us Gen. Karpinski as a scapegoat, and sweep it all under the table and continue along the same path. They are trying to blame a few "rotten apples".

It is up to the American people to put a stop to torture in our name. And if the American people don't put a stop to it now, God knows with the Patriot Act, it will be us next.