The key to peace is a European Army

Is to restore the balance of power. NATO is an American tool and I am sad to see even Randi Rhodes advocating what is, essentially, the US military might with a headlock on Europe. You really think we are going to continue to send our kids to die because America has leverage anymore? No. Iraq is your mess, you clean it up. NATO will and has to die and if Europe has some leverage now.

I suspect Africa will be the breeding ground for the next generation of mercenaries as a draft won't go over well.

Your tax dollars right? Your tax breaks.... wait no, their tax breaks, the big guys. Not the firemen who died in 9-11, not the rescue workers, not the nurses... no. Whose gonna pay for this fiasco? Or will BFEE just drive the country into the ground?

Hold it folks. We (Europe) have now an integrated economy which consists of close to half a billion people. It is imperative that we make our own choices in terms of security, not play the lapdog that England is still trying kill in Brussels - they are working hard against an EU army.

Europe needs it's own army. NATO is bullshit. It's time for Europe to make civilised decisions based on the UN and the rule of International law. NATO lost is relevance when the wall came down and the collapse of the Cold War in 1989.

The future lies in the UN and if your RW nut cases, poodle senators, PNAC warriors, oil imperialists, and military corporations want carte Blanche muscle to rule the world and you continue to use aggression to do so I think you will be in for a surprise. Your old 'commie' enemy, Russia is becoming pretty chummy with Europe. China's not on good terms with the US either.

When the Euro displaces the dollar with OPEC, when Brazil pegs it's currency to the Euro, when Chavez gives you the finger.... well you got Haiti and Iraq and your treasury has been raped to pay for it.

As Powell said, "well you will own Iraq". I don't see a US occupation pipe dream ever being able to achieve the stability in order to siphon the oil effectively. Sure, Halliburton along with a slew of other whores including mercenaries from the old South African regime (kaffir killers) are sucking up tax dollars that should be propping up health care, pensions, job creation, real counter-terrorism in America.... no, you are being FUCKED over.

It's odd to see if from the outside. Really.

Get rid of Bush. Please.

that Europe would grow up and realize that they need no army other than an internal security force. Who threatens the EU, other than the US? Who is going to invade? Armies are obsolete, except to carry out imperialistic designs.

America has troops in over 100 countries, will not sign any international treaties per say, and you have unilaterally walked into Iraq to steal their oil to run SUV's.

My goodness, why would you want to do that? I thought you EUropeans were more mature than this. It seems like the only reason you'd want an army is simple penis envy. It seems better for us to get rid of ours (I agree that dismantling NATO as obsolete would be a good idea). But why does EUrope need an army for goodness sake? What threats are you hoping to neutralize?

Protect our interests. I highly doubt you would see a European army walk into a situation like Iraq.'

Please.

NATO is an American tool that controls European security and needs to be diminished.

NATO undermines the UN.

That is the truth.

And, besides the Brits, most Europeans are tired of being shoved around by the US under the guise of NATO.

"Protect our interests" -- how will an army protect your interests? Where are those interests? Who threatens you?

It sounds to me like you want to have the ability to engage in the supression of 'uppidy' third world countries, like the US has done for the past 50 years. Are you envious of that capability? Maybe you need to invade Algeria so that they will learn to be civilized. Maybe you need to 'secure' Lebanon. Maybe you need to 'protect' Sri Lanka.

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NATO is an American tool that controls European security and needs to be diminished.

NATO undermines the UN.

That is the truth.

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I agree. NATO should be abolished and the US should be kicked out of Europe, as well as Korea, as well as South America, as well as Southwest Asia. But why is that a justification for a European Army? Why not just dissolve NATO and arrest the US troops that are illegally occupying European countries with your existing police and national armies? Why a European Army?

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And, besides the Brits, most Europeans are tired of being shoved around by the US under the guise of NATO.

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That statement scares me...that statement sounds like something that would have been said by an autocratic leader during the 1930s. That sounds like something that would be said by a Raygun or a Shrub...that scares the h3ll out of me.

Unemployment is pretty high in Europe. An "internal security force" or an army might help reduce the numbers of unemployed.

But I would love to clarify as I personally think America's unemployment numbers are cooked.

The economic angle is an interesting argument but, in reality, Europe has dismantled it's forced service and professional armies are now the norm.

Yes, perhaps it would give a few more jobs, but since post WW2 most kids in Europe have done some time as they were drafted or forced into a volunteer army.

with your assessment but you are not giving any news to us.

Nato has been very important in peace keeping and I would hope Europe
won't be stupid enough to scuttle it.

You do remember that the Northern Europeans were called the "good Nazis" I assume.

NATO is bullshit.

It's an American tool.

Don't give me that Nazi bullshit because your country with its Homeland security, Gitmo camps, privatised prisons, and current unilateral policies resembles the Nazis more than anything we currently have in Europe. Sans the Brits of course, because Blair cut a deal with Murdoch.

Most countries are run with coalitions of more than four or five parties and are not as divisive as the what I see as birds of a feather in terms of your political spectrum.

Kucinich would be considered a centrist in Europe. It's fucked up people. I wish you the best. Anybody but Bush I pray. That's all I can say.

Why don't you just leave Iraq? Do you really think the rest of the world believes the US/UK imperialists are there to make good on delivering 'democracy'? What do you think we are? Idiots? Come on.

Sudan and Chad are about to butt heads but who cares... right?

Don't attempt to belittle me with your senseless hypocrisy.

do more good there than here.

Best of luck.

P.S. - call me when you get a little older and wiser.

Right. You should really get out more. There is more to the world than the trailer park.

I am not young, I am older and fairly wise having lived and travelled in over 50 countries.... and speak more languages than you can probably name.

What's wrong?

You can't handle the truth right? You think NATO is workable within the EU. Sorry, not as long as our group in Brussels and contacts throughout a network in Europe has a voice. And we are working against the UK who is poodling for Bush.

Oh yea, the child... the one you think needs to 'grow up' actually is part of coalition (hahahahahhaha... sorry that's a funny english propaganda toolword} - a group who advocate Europeans having control of OUR OWN SECURITY. What you think we are all going to brand swastikas on our foreheads? Grow up kid.

seems thats all you really want there fella. Im glad you aspire to be so great. It sounds like your really sour about the U.S.'s power and trying to imply that the whole world will attack the U.S. Europe, Russia, and China will somehow band together to defeat the Evil Americans. You have some serious issues that need to be resolved, try some icecream.

I am sour. I am mad. After watching Uk and US soldiers kick the shit out of a few 'ragheads' - I am furious.

The Canadian model works fine because there's not much of a choice? Who will invade? Well America I suppose.

When it came down to Yugoslavia, should the US have been involved? No.

That should never happend again. Our security is our business. Not yours. Europe needs to ditch NATO. It's obsolete. It's a cold war remnant. Time to go.

Canadians liberated my city in WW2... so please spare me from the old war argument.

And as for trying to draw the reality of a European army to Nazis, that is simply patheic.

Look at Madrid.....

Spain is out. Poland is talking, Bulgarians are humming and hawing, Holland say July, it's down to the UK and the US basically. Good luck. Don't expect that we will spill any more of our children's blood over your oil war.

They are coming out with this 'moral' issue now... we can't leave the Iraqis to fragment blah blah blah and still the largest US embassy in the world is being built in Baghdad and 12 huge bases are being constructed around the country. Cut the bullshit okay?

Hard? Yes, I am. I don't care. It's my view, take it or leave it. I am not anti-American.

I am anti BUSH. But I find more and more Democrats getting rattled over my views and claiming otherwise. Calling me a Nazi?

When half my elders died in the camps? Shame on you.

Tanks, bombers nuclear aircraft carriers? Are these the things you wish to build? Is the future one of high tech conflict between superpowers or low tech/law enforcement against religious fundamentalism?

Amerika invaded the Middle East to steal natural resources and to appease Israel. Unless you are concerned about or believe in using military might to secure resources there is no reason for Europe to rearm. Your resources are knowledge and human capital, what are you fearful of? I don't understand.

We have no choice.

Come on... shall we be pawns in America's chess game?
What do you think NATO is? You should really read up on it... it's about US control over European military policy.

I don't see the US willing to slow down... or cutting into their arsenal, or decreasing spending on the military.

What should we do? NATO is going to be the tool that will send our children to die for your oil war. Not the UN.

I am proposing the eradication of NATO and, along with the reunification of a continenant, we form our own military that will provide some balance and act under the UN rather than NATO.

NATO is an imperialist tool of the US and the UK and must be weakened. The UN needs to be strengthened. The only way to do that is for Europeans to wean themselves away from US hegemony in the form of NATO and create it's own security forces.... internally or externally if called upon by the UN. NOT BY NATO.

Ik ben droevig dat mijn eerste minister een idiot is. Ik stemde niet voor hem.

I hope that came across OK.

Harry Potter you mean.

What a fiasco. My wife and I have had Roma Gypsies from Slovakia (where they are starving them) sleeping on our floor waiting - the crew want to toss out 25000 refugees. Holland has some serious problems but we also have a zillion parties rather than a polarized two party nation. We will work it out. The Roma/Gypsy issue will become an EU issue eventually. It has too.

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Can't handle the truth. Too bad.

I have written more articles in three languages than you have probably ever read in one.

Lampshades? Maybe my some of my family were.... but Canadians liberated my city not Americans. Come see Groningen on liberation day and see all the maple leafs.

Go read this. Perhaps you will understand that the Bush family has been formenting wars, funding them and selling arms since WWI.

Oh. but I am an idiot right? You are simply an insult to my intelligence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1490769

YOU are w-a-a-a-y too young to have experienced "duck and cover." :silly:

a chess game and you just lost your queen... not an easy game. The Russians are very good. You got the pipeline in Afghanistan and the poppies are back in production... that is sorted. The rest won't come so easy if at all.

US hegemony is much more of a threat than the fundamentalist terrorists that were funded, built and created by the CIA and subsequently lifted by your Saudi friends.

At least that's what much of the civilised world thinks.

Polls around the world (oh yea, there is a world out there) consistantly show that people fear George Bush more than Osama Bin Laden. Oh, but we did not have a 9-11 right? Sure, I stood in the financial district in London after the IRA sent out an Oklahoma weight bomb... all those lads in Boston pubs chipping in the for the movement. America allowed Americans to fund the IRA for decades.

This whole 'terrorist' media war game that CNN is perpetuating on global TV propaganda is even worse.

Insurgents? No the Iraqis are Freedom Fighters. They want their fucking country back.

But it's a goat story. 30 minutes of stand down for power.

LIHOP. IMO.

Let me repeat. I am not anti-American, I am anti-Bush. As an outsider who does not watch nor read most of your propaganda except WP, NYT, CNN and that's only to gauge how pathetic the talking heads are willing to bend over for the administration most of the time. I can count the number of mainstream journalists in the US on one hand who really ask questions. The rest are plants or are too worried about losing their million dollar a year jobs.

Pick up the Guardian, the Independent or turn on the BBC or CBC, at least you will see some light.

Bye.

unbridled military expenditures have left us in debt, socially underfunded and stuck us in numerous third world countries. I would gladly take the European or Canadian model any day.

it anyway. don't worry, the next time someone walks all over europe we'll keep our noses out of it.

The sex is very efficient. Speaking of which, I need to get off this damn board.

Wir haben diese Sheiße schon erlebt. Nase VOLL!!! DD ain't talking about THEN. THIS IS NOW. Go to your local mall and buy yourself a clue.

-

follow. Although I'm not entirely sure that would be worse or better than the position we're in now. I'm entirely convinced that the threat of Soviet Communism was the only thing that ameliorated the excesses of Western capitalism. I don't think the dismantlement of American and Eurpoean welfare states in the wake of the USSR's demise is a coincidence. Of course EU v. US would be capitalist v. capitalist. But in any case it would be interesting.

In 2000, Russia and China signed documents on cooperation in the use and advancement of Russia's global navigational system Glonass.

Glonass, which is a twin of the American GPS system, is able to determine the exact position of an object anywhere on the globe, determine speed, and check time with an error of as little as one millionth of a second. The system has important military applications and is especially important in delivering pinpoint military strikes.

The U.S. GPS system is currently the most popular system of its kind and is used for military and civilian purposes throughout the world. However, the U.S. government restricts the use of the signal and reserves the right to cut off its availability if dictated by national security interests.

China plans to install Glonass terminals at airports and on planes, and Russia has allowed China to finance a group of Glonass satellites.

At the same time, The European Union and Ukraine agreed to cooperate in the creation of an all-European Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) to allow them, and others, to bypass the U.S. system. http://www.spacedaily.com/news/gps-00h.html

In response, in 2000, the Air Force awarded Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Sunnyvale, CA, a $53 million contract to begin development of modernization changes for up to 12 Global Positioning System (GPS) Block IIR satellites. Lockheed Martin has delivered 21 of these satellites; 12 satellites remain in storage for future launches. http://www.losangeles.af.mil/SMC/PA/Fact_Sheets/gps_fs.htm

A GPS satellite built by Lockheed Martin for the U.S. Air Force, was successfully launched from Cape Canaveral in October. The satellite, designated GPS IIR-9, was the eighth successful launch of the new-generation GPS IIR spacecraft, boasting improved global coverage and increased overall performance of the GPS constellation. http://www.ilslaunch.com/newsarchives/newsreleases/rec93

The satellite joined the GPS IIR-8 satellite launched on Jan. 29, 2003, along with the 26 other operational GPS satellites now on orbit.

President Bush, with our money, in concert with Lockheed, intends to outdo the Chinese, the Russians and the European Union in the space satellite tussle as these other countries move away from the our paternalistic control of our space positioning system.

So, in effect, we're isolating ourselves over here with our defense systems and everyone else in the world is uniting on the other side. No wonder they're getting paranoid over at the Pentagon.


Me Book

:evilgrin:

so the US can shut it down in case of war with EU.

If the world lasts that long.

It seems to me that was probably the motivation of the EU, anyway. I imagine there is some concern in the US government about the prospect of an EU army.

I would hate to see US/Europe become adversaries, it is already starting, but I hate it, anyway.

It seems that the world is de-evolving rather quickly.

I think it is very sad.

If Kerry gets in I think he will accept a balance of power. He's a Washington insider but he's not so tied to the Texans. And they are the root of all of your problems from Enron and the California energy fiasco to the whitehouse.

Let's see where he goes. He wants UN, I think he realises NATO is not going to work. Then it comes down individual countries.

NATO has to go. It's simple. In my eyes. UN Peacekeepers made up of non NATO forces. It's the only way.

OUT of Iraq. The ones doing the killing, thieving and "converting."

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

Europe doesn't have a peaceful history. But maybe they're ready now. By the way, don't let your hate get the best of you. We'll do our best to right the ship by getting the right out of power at every level our ballot box allows.

Not the Diebold boxes.

Bev's Battle is more important that mine.

the US people need to pacify their army by not electing a war monger for president.

a EU army to counter the US army brings us uncomfortably close to

"We're at war with Eurasia, we've always been at war with Eurasia."


To help US people get rid of their war monger, we the Dutch people might start by denouncing our government's support for Bush.

This:
"Ik ben droevig dat mijn eerste minister een idiot is. Ik stemde niet voor hem."
applies as much to Bush as it does to our Balkenende.

What's the difference? Do we have to Grovel to a UK/US led NATO anymore? Why should we? As for Balkenende, he's a small fish in a big sea and there is no doubt in my mind he will be out before NL can even get around to another election. The disposal of tens of thousands of refugees is enought to take him out... Cities and mayors are turning their backs already.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/02/12/nether7360.htm

Bloody religious right who slipped in under the coffin of a gay xenophobe.

principles of the multi-cultural society as Pim Fortuyn pleaded before his murder.....

http://www.nos.nl/nieuws/artikelen/2004/5/1/nieuwbeginselmanifestvanpvda.html

-------snip---------

Multiculturele samenleving
Bos neemt afstand van het pleidooi voor een multiculturele samenleving: "Multicultureel suggereert dat alles aan elkaar gelijkwaardig is. Daarmee verlies je het zicht op het feit dat sommige zaken tot de kernwaarden van je cultuur behoren"

De partijleider noemt onder meer waarden als de gelijkheid van man en vrouw, homo en hetero en de scheiding van kerk en staat. "Die wil je niet opofferen in het proces van integratie

That leaves perhaps the Greens and the Socialists who see no danger whatsoever in "multi-culturalism" (read: Islamic ideals/values encroaching on Western democratic values).....

DemEx

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I was merely showing, with the article as evidence, how the Dutch labor party is jumping on the SAME bandwagon as rightwing parties all over Europe, leaving few parties with your ideals to vote for...

:eyes:

Groetjes!

DemEx

in Europe is not really rejection of multi-culturalism - it is the fear (and rejection) of conservative Islamic values undermining accepted and progressive ones safeguared by laws - especially here in Holland.
(As alluded to in Walter Bos' statement over the PvdA's new manifesto!)

edit for translation of the article from Dutch:
Multicultural society
Bos distances himself from the advocation for a multicultural society: "Multicultural suggests that everything is equal. With that you lose sight of the fact that some things are inherent to one's core cultural values".
The party leader cites values such as equality of man and woman, homo and hetero and the separation of church and state.
"Those are values that you don't want to sacrifice in the process of intergration.


DemEx

Michael Ignatieff believes that American leadership is the key to world order and the continuation of the human rights project.

Michael Mann has spent much of his life exploring the sources of social power and he believes the US has become a one-eyed giant, its current over-emphasis on military might distorting both its place in the world and its future prosperity at home.

Neither question the reality of US military power but a generation ago the historian and demographer Emmanuel Todd predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union he now proposes a similar fate for an America using micro-militarism as a smoke screen for real structural weaknesses.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/thinkingallowed_20031210.shtml

look on the left side and click on listen again..