Y'know what bugs me about *the pictures*??

Of course the fact that it occurred at all is beyond horrifying... But being an extremely cynical person, I just expect/assume those things go on whether we see them or not, unfortunately. What REALLY just rubs me the wrong way is the utter STUPIDITY and arrogance of taking those kinds of pics to begin with. I mean really, what kind of mindset do you have to be in to a) WANT to document such things and b) think that in the *Information Age* they're not gonna be spread far and wide by every possible type of media imaginable??!

Mind blowing. Sets a new gold-standard for idiocy. :eyes:

the actions in the pictures. I'm not. But I don't expect the people who partake in these actions to be particularly intelligent human beings anyway.

These people are as thick as that guy who robbed the store he worked at with his security guard uniform still on...

Shock, anger, sadness, embarasment, more anger et cetera. I was thinking, how stupid must you be to document shit like this?

I guess? Something to reminisce over? Proof of what bad-asses they were during the war? Same mindset as taking ear trophies from bodies, I guess. . .

i watch pool feed after pool feed come in from iraq - video of the soldiers that doesn't usually make it to air. the vast majority of soldiers over there are YOUNG, UNINTELLIGENT and easily swayed. i've seen too much video of the soldiers enjoying the killing. (i can only imagine what's NOT caught on camera).

of course there are plenty of good guys and girls over there, but i'd hesitate to say a majority.

assumed that everyone knew what was going on and approved it. The soldiers in those pictures had no idea that what they were doing was wrong or not approved of - they made no effort at all to hide anything. So don't give me (or Sy Hersh) any "bad apples" bullshit.

Those are exactly the types that the Army recruiters want. I, however have a son who was in the military, and so I kind of resent the tone you seem to have taken. A lot of people are just not cut out for "formal" education, and need something else. Having said that, I do not condone the torture at all, but still support the military, if not the illegal war. Now if my son was over there doing that shit, I would be very disappointed and am not sure if I could ever welcome him back into my life. If I read your message the wrong way, I apologize.

i say: "the vast majority of soldiers over there are YOUNG, UNINTELLIGENT and easily swayed."

you say: "Of course they're young and "unintelligent" Those are exactly the types that the Army recruiters want."

i say: "of course there are plenty of good guys and girls over there, but i'd hesitate to say a majority.

you say: "I kind of resent the tone you seem to have taken."


i think you DID read my message wrong. apology accepted.

That's just the way they like them.

Some things never change

the person taking the pics (who is the alleged photog anyway?) wanted them to get out. :shrug: :tinfoilhat:

.
.
.

I mean, there are a "few" instances of military personnel using drugs before? :shrug:

AND

of course there's the Military's OWN "prescribed" "cocktail" of drugs -

Who knows HOW their brains are functioning on that stuff

(sigh)

do you think they would even consider it with non pictures? Yes, it is a dirty job but someone had/has to do it and thank goodness they have..

Sad but true.

I think it comes from a mind-set that you will win and be so powerful that no one will be able to call you to account, whether or not they see the pictures.

Like the rapist who keeps a piece of the woman's jewelry or lock of hair as a souvenier.

But even more likely, the act of getting photographed enhanced the humiliation of the prisoners. You know, it would be bad enough to be forced to suck someone off... but to be forced to do that and be photographed doing it? 100 times worse.

You always hear of criminals being caught because they have been keeping newspaper clippings of their crimes. Or juveniles videotaping a crime spree.

:shrug: after all, we have a pretzeldent who thinks mocking a death row inmate is funny, and thinks making light of 911 is funny.

and for the greater good.

Same problem the Nazis had.

Once you've accepted it as normal, why not document it? If it doesn't shock you, why should it shock anyone else?

And THAT means that we are seeing something that became ROUTINE.

do find it acceptable. I listened to CSPAN's Washington Journal and though callers weren't applauding the torture/humiliation behavior, they weren't condemning it that vociferiously, either. Let's face it. The Coulters and Limbaughs have contributed to this mindset. Might makes right. We are the champions. We have the right to behave like we want. We're Americans. Our bully-boy fake cowboy President doesn't help, either. Bring It On. Macho swaggering. This is just so sick. We've lost our way.

their crimes. Since they are obviously enjoying it (the US soldiers) in these photos, there's no guilt, and it's just a way to relive good times, have "trophies" of their memorable escapades. Very stupid for serial killers to take incriminating photos/videos of their crimes, keep their victims' drivers license and jewelry, but all have been done many times over.

(Story below about "Nightstalker" Richard Ramirez)
http://crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/satan_2.html?sect=1

"The turning point in Ramirez's life might well have been the night he witnessed his cousin Mike murder his wife. Mike had fought as a Green Beret in Vietnam, but the war had changed him. After he'd returned home, he boasted of torturing and mutilating the enemy, and had brought back Polaroids to prove it. He and his thirteen-year-old cousin Richard would hang out all day, getting high, which is just what they were doing when Mike's wife started to nag him about getting his life together and finding a job. To shut her up, Mike pulled out a gun and shot her in the face, killing her. Author Philip Carlo, speaking on CNBC's Rivera Live, revealed that Ramirez was spattered with the woman's blood. Mike's lawyer pointed to the incredible stress of his horrible war experiences as a mitigating factor. He was ultimately convicted, but the judge was lenient in his sentencing. Mike had been a big influence on Richard, who became fascinated with the horrible photographs of Mike's war victims. It was after the murder of Mike's wife that Richard, the epileptic youngest child in a family of three boys and two sisters, started skipping school and smoking pot as much as he could every day. He soon took to stealing to support his drug use .

The police have no evidence that Richard Ramirez killed at anytime before he reached Los Angeles, and little is known about his activities in the first few years he lived there. . No doubt his crimes were escalating during this period.
(snip)
Like his cousin Mike, he might have even taken photographs that he could relish later. This no doubt excited him and helped him develop the depraved fantasies that took over his thinking. "

Do people not learn anything?! My gods, that was what...the 80s? And I'm sure there were instances even before that. You would think at some point it would sink in...crimes + photographs = BUSTED. Stupid.

these guards (who I hope are not serial killers), nor Gary Hart on the "Monkey Business" with Donna Rice, ever thinks they are going to be caught. Obviously they feel they will enjoy viewing the photos in the future, either privately or sharing with friends, and that's why they take them.

Remember the scandal about the UK torture where they victim was hung?

The person who took the photos sent the film to a London shop for processing. They're not even thinking about getting caught because it's "normal" to them- it's become their reality and they can't understand that it isn't everybody's.

Shopworker 'sickened' by POW photos
Saturday, 31 May, 2003, 10:38 GMT 11:38 UK

A photography shop assistant has described her horror at photos that allegedly showed Iraqi prisoners of war being mistreated.
Kelly Tilford, 22, raised the alarm after developing the film in the shop where she works in Tamworth, Staffordshire.

She said: "I felt sick when I looked at the pictures. They were grim. I just felt awful."

Military police are continuing to question an 18-year-old British soldier who is in custody in connection with the film.

<snip>

One of the images allegedly showed an Iraqi, bound and gagged, hanging from a rope on a fork-lift truck.

Ms Tilford told the Sun newspaper the Iraqi looked "petrified".

"I will never forget that terrible stare. I immediately thought, 'That's not right'," she said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2951888.stm

And that from someone who still says:

"I am as proud as anybody of what our forces did out there - but there are rules."

Kelly Tilford

Here's what I think:

When something that was once unusual or taboo becomes ROUTINE, people have this strange need to document it - to take pictures. It's like they feel they are in a dream (or nightmare) and taking pictures will somehow make it real - break the spell.

Look at the pictures again. One of the most revolting aspects of it all is the "smile for the camera" type poses of the torturers. Same kind of smile you would expect if they were having their picture taken with Micky Mouse at Disney World.

The torture was widespread. It was everyday.

I make it a habit not to discount information coming from the victim of an injustice and this has really been bothering me.

Rumors of these atrocities have been on the internet for a while but because they weren't on the US corporate-owned media, we didn't give them enough attention (this to avoid problems with all the America-does-no-wrong "apologists" who want to kill all discussion.

From now on. No more.

This one breaks my heart:

03 05 2004

The newspaper reminds that militants attacked the (Abu Ghraib) prison several days ago. 22 prison guards and inmates were killed and 51 injured. The reason for this was probably a leaflet that can be seen on the outside of the prison's wall...similar leaflets are now appearing in many mosques in Baghdad...cry for help from the hostages of that Iraqi prison...

«We are held in the northern sector. Attack this prison and put an end to our disgrace, and if you cannot do this for the love of the Most High, tell someone who can stick up for us or give us some 'Bahe Maneh al-Hamel'. May Allah and Iraqi patriots put an end to our tortures». 'Bahe Maneh al-Hamel' is the Arab for 'contraceptive pills'.

The women detained in Abu Ghraib are feeling ashamed when they evasively tell about the desperate situation that they are in (which any Eastern woman would experience in the conditions of constant violence committed by prison guards, new Iraqi policemen and the Americans). Any Muslim who read this message will feel his blood curdle from indignation.

<snip>

One of the Iraqis working on a contract with the US administration told La Stampa about one of such terrible episodes. He says that almost 2,500 inmates are held in that prison. The prison is divided into 4 sections. 600 inmates are women. One of them is a bank teller from Baghdad. She was put in jail in January for financial fraud. She could only be released on bail. The family collected $15,000 and this person was sent to discuss the details of release. When he saw her in a room, she had a big stomach. She was sobbing and telling that she was raped by Iraqi prison guards and American soldiers each night, and she does not want to get out of the prison. She told not to say anything to her relatives, because if she returns to Baghdad she will die from shame. :mad:

The same person said that two women already hung themselves in their cells. Another woman gave a birth in confinement. The newborn baby was a mulatto. Allegedly, the US military authorities conducted an internal investigation, but no guilty have been found.

Amnesty International is calling on the complex investigation of all cases of violence against the inmates in Iraq.

<snip>

http://www.kavkaz.org.uk/eng/article.php?id=2730
====


((with thanks to Chookie))

<snip>

The real facts are that there is report after report of US abuses; on the internet, in the back pages of our newspapers, in personal accounts that with a little luck will now make their way to mainstream press. This is not an isolated few - this is business as usual for the US military and their collaborating band of thugs in Iraq. Is it any wonder that bodies of US soldiers who fall into Iraqi hands are mutilated and displayed?

The pictures of US soldiers dishonoring Iraqi detainees came as no surprise to JUS (Jihad Unspun). We have been reporting alleged abuses since shortly after the fall of Baghdad. We received several reports over the past months of US soldiers raping Iraqi woman, only to find these photos posted to US porn sites. While these photos and reports were put down to "loose" Iraqi women (which shows a fundamental understanding of Iraq's religion and culture) we discovered later that those who were detained, some at Abu Ghraib prison, who refused to provide US officials with intelligence where given a prod to garner "cooperation" by rounding up the female relatives, forcing then into sexual acts that were filmed and then shown to their husbands, fathers and brothers and to the general public through porn sites. Now the CBS 60 Minutes II report legitimizes the incidents we have been reporting all along.

The Arab world is outrage. The Muslim Ummah is outraged. Iraqis are outraged and so are people of conscience everywhere. I pity the next soldiers that fall into Resistance hands. And contrary to its belief - America can be defeated and most likely will be defeated and dangled at the end of its own pathetic rope for all the world to see.

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=2811&list=/home.php&

that when people engaged in crimes or abnormal behavior document like this, it is PRECISELY BECAUSE of the "unusualness" or "specialness" of the acts involved that they want to commemorate what they've done, and relive it later. It's memorably evil. I don't think they want to BREAK any spell, the want to RECREATE the spell, the atmosphere of what it felt like to do those things, to have that power over a terrified victim. My 2 cents anyway. Our disagreement on this is unimportant.

And I agree with some of the posters here--basically the acts are wicked or evil. People can "slide" down the slope to immoral behavior because of prevailing conditions and peer pressure, but I doubt you'd see the kind of glee on the faces of the soldiers. These are bad people. It is a failure of home training, or whatever.

about so many things. I watched video of the troops leaving and of them coming home and to look at them and think that so many are doing this type of thing is chilling. What do you think will happen when they get home again? Lots of alcohol abuse? drugs? On these videos they seem so young and vulnerable.

I think when President Clinton was in office, he at least tried to set a standard of decency (who thinks a hummer is indecent? I always wonder who would do the same thing as Monica if given the chance? Well, and then keep her big mouth shut though) in spite of the ugliness of the right wing. But now that the republicans are in charge, it seems that morally our society has become crueler, colder, more segregated, greedy, liers. Sort of like in an office, one person can set the tone of the office.

Clinton's obscene war against Yugoslavia was responsible for horrors that no one in "our" party wants to talk about because "heavens, we would be playing into the hands of the freepers".

I would agree though that the tone was definitely better but I attribute that less to anything Clinton did (because the make-up of the Armed Forces and Intel agencies hasn't changed) and more to the fact that it was pre 9-11 and Americans weren't as blood-thirsty for revenge as we are now.

===============================

As an aside, DynCorp personnel, contracted to the U.N. police who served in Bosnia, were accused of buying and selling prostitutes, including girls as young as 12 years old. When several DynCorp employees were also accused of videotaping the rape of one of the women, employee Kathy Bolkovac blew the whistle on the alleged sex ring and was immediately dismissed from the company. DynCorp is a "top 25" government contractor, which posted $2.3 billion in revenues in 2002, according to Business Week. It is DynCorp employees who are the security force for the new Afghan president, Hamid Karzai. Former CIA Director James Woolsey is a primary stockholder.

http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/000584.html

=========================


Americans were seen in Bosnia as defenders of the children, as shown here, until U.S. contractors began buying children as personal sex slaves.

DynCorp Disgrace
Posted Jan. 14, 2002
By Kelly Patricia O Meara

Middle-aged men having sex with 12- to 15-year-olds was too much for Ben Johnston, a hulking 6-foot-5-inch Texan, and more than a year ago he blew the whistle on his employer, DynCorp, a U.S. contracting company doing business in Bosnia.

According to the Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization Act (RICO) lawsuit filed in Texas on behalf of the former DynCorp aircraft mechanic, "in the latter part of 1999 Johnston learned that employees and supervisors from DynCorp were engaging in perverse, illegal and inhumane behavior were purchasing illegal weapons, women, forged passports and other immoral acts. Johnston witnessed coworkers and supervisors literally buying and selling women for their own personal enjoyment, and employees would brag about the various ages and talents of the individual slaves they had purchased."

Rather than acknowledge and reward Johnston's effort to get this behavior stopped, DynCorp fired him, forcing him into protective custody by the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Division (CID) until the investigators could get him safely out of Kosovo and returned to the United States. That departure from the war-torn country was a far cry from what Johnston imagined a year earlier when he arrived in Bosnia to begin a three-year U.S. Air Force contract with DynCorp as an aircraft-maintenance technician for Apache and Blackhawk helicopters.

<snip>

The mix of drunkenness and working on multimillion-dollar aircraft upon which the lives of U.S. military personnel depended was a serious enough issue, but Johnston drew the line when it came to buying young girls and women as sex slaves. "I heard talk about the prostitution right away, but it took some time before I understood that they were buying these girls. I'd tell them that it was wrong and that it was no different than slavery — that you can't buy women. But they'd buy the women's passports and they owned them and would sell them to each other."

<snip>

http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm/include/detail/storyid/163052.html

That's one of the milder stories.

I was not aware of that and I have had a vivid lesson in reality today. I guess so far as my Clinton comment, I was thinking about the mood in the US. There seemed to be less open hatred for those who are different. But I thank you for your comments.

These people (the soldiers) are being asked to go over there and kill Iraqis (who happen to be humans). In order to get them to do this, they have to be propagandized to believe that the Iraqis are inhuman and evil and therefore deserve to die. It's no leap at all to go from killing somebody to doing to them what we see in those pictures. Killing is OK, the pictured nonsense is OK, why not take some pictures for the scrapbook? It's fine to be morally outraged at these kids, but save the worst of it for the people who put them there and washed their brains. They are the real culprits. The kids will have to live with it for the rest of their lives, the leaders won't.

have a lot of time to reminisce about it when they're busting rocks in Leavenworth.

commited are inhumane. All who are involved should be dealt with harshly and quickly.

Its evil plain and simple. People who take pleasure in something like this are evil. Lets be real here. Could you ever do something like that? I couldnt imagine doing such a thing and enjoying it.

Idiots document it for future prosecution.