Are the soldiers that tortured simply obeying authority?

I couldn't help but remember this study while studying psychology.

Does anyone remember it? I wonder if the soldiers that were torturing the prisoners were perhaps the victims of trying to be obedient to their authorities, meaning the officers?

<< Controversy surrounded Stanley Milgram for much of his professional life as a result of a series of experiments on obedience to authority which he conducted at Yale University in 1961-1962. He found, surprisingly, that 65% of his subjects, ordinary residents of New Haven, were willing to give apparently harmful electric shocks-up to 450 volts-to a pitifully protesting victim, simply because a scientific authority commanded them to, and in spite of the fact that the victim did not do anything to deserve such punishment. The victim was, in reality, a good actor who did not actually receive shocks, and this fact was revealed to the subjects at the end of the experiment. But, during the experiment itself, the experience was a powerfully real and gripping one for most participants. >>

No matter what the case may be, fact remains that the results of this study will continue to follow us. I do not believe that the soldiers that tortured the prisoners deserve to be forgiven on any level, but I cannot help but wonder who exactly helped them move towards this path.

Since when are soldiers allowed to have time to conduct the types of practices that were photographed? Who is behind this really I wonder?

http://www.stanleymilgram.com/milgram.html

on edit: fixed link

ironically we wrote it

Now the E-3 may have an excuse, sort of, but the Staff Sergeant shold have known better

Ultimately, the failure is at the command level and I cam betting does not stop at Brigadier Karpinsky's level (though she will be let out to dry)...

And soldiers, part of the soldiers code involves recognizing an ilegal order and knowing when to disobey them.

I know the study, I also know waht Lifton has written about WW II SS troops... but I also go by Nuremberg.

I believe that the soldiers that torture prisoners are very sick individuals. The military has a liking for these types and recruits them knowing that no one in their right mind would hire them for a bona fide job. So, they end up in the military.

These people were not drafted. They enlisted. They like being in the military more than likely (well maybe not anymore after this).

Still the same, they aren't exempt from being thrown out and tried as war criminals for they are guilty of war crimes.

However, it seems to me that the Secretary of Defense (Rumsfeld) is the one that is ultimately responsible for allowing these heinous acts to occur. Hopefully, a long line of old lifer boys might get dumped by the military but that is only a faint hope.

Probably the soldiers themselves will bear the brunt of this while the officers wander off into the dusk without a shred of guilt nor tears shed.

edited for spelling sorry

in your opinion of the armed forces

The armed forces are a reflection of the greater community. Do the armed forces have some crazy people? Yep, but so do all OTHER sectors of society.

These kids came into the army because they wanted a chance to do something, or college money, or what have you. They were sent with piss poor training and even poorer leadership into a hell that you do not comprehend... and thank the gods you will never have to, we hope. Then in many cases they were told that they were going home but then they were not... (some of these kids I am betting cracked due to this, not that this is an excuse)

They all come from a very small town (read Jay Lifton), and they were inserted into an artificial chain of command where both Mercenaries and Military Intel people were put in charge. They were told to do any thing they could to get the info (which the info they got is totally unreliable)... and they got sick with this power over their prisoners

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

And if you believe that YOU are incapable of perpetrating these horrors, well if the conditions were right, don't bet you will be able to hold off and maintain a higher moral ground. That is the lesson that we all like to forget... only the "other" is capable of doing this, and never you or me. Seen things in my life that would curl you... so I know better.

Not only 1 soldier (Fredriks) but even the General in charge has said they were acting on orders.

The Bush administration has simply offered up several individuals for sacrifice here and so far the Lame Ass Media is buying into the lies.

There is also this information from the General's press interview. The cell block where all the torture was conducted was under the control of Military Intelligence

So why has no one and I mean no one asked who these individuals are? I am pretty sure their names have not been added to the list of those responsible is because it would expose a paper trail of information flowing to the Administration.

In other words the Administration know this was going on for months. As the London paper said this is just the "Tip of the Iceberg"

So to sit back calmly and lay all the blame on these soldiers is just as sick as the people who know and are now hiding behind them

to the intelligence forces and the contractors. This seems to be what the news media seems to be saying, not out loud, of course. I would think that using both of those as excuses wouldn't hold water because, aren't the soldiers supposed to take orders only from their superiors in the military? How could the contractors, say, give them orders? (I am not sure of this, so if someone else knows, please tell me.)

and these poor saps had dreams of being a part of or even being one of the elite CIA.

That is how they gave orders

Would they have to clear those orders with the military first?

I believe that the Geneva Convention removed "following orders" as an excuse. Beyond that, any human being should just KNOW that it was wrong to do that. You don't need any kind of training to know that you don't commit crimes against humanity.

That's kinda what I was trying to say, in my roundabout way. I'm very annoyed at the Brigadier General being on the talk shows tonight, saying that she is at fault, but she is not the only one, and there are MANY that bear as much and more blame than she does.