Why do people on DU think less of Pat Tillman because of his money?

I have seen many posts on DU that say something along the lines of:

The only reason the media is propping up Pat Tillman is a hero is because he gave up money and fame to go off to war.

...as if that is not a good thing.

I would have thought this is exactly the thing liberals we would like to see. Don't we want those with money and fame to give it up and fight for causes they care about? Don't we want to reject the pursuit of wealth and promote the pursuit of ideals? When somebody turns down money and fame, shouldn't we celebrate that?

I think a lot of people at DU just automatically distrust anybody who is rich and successful, and it's troubling...

It's troubling because the Democratic nominee for President is a lot like Pat Tillman.

John Kerry came from a wealthy family and probably had the means to avoid the Vietnam Draft if he so wanted, but instead he enlisted. Like Pat Tillman, he performed heroic acts in an unjust war. John Kerry was luckier than Pat Tillman because he survived.

When John Kerry returned from war he did not devote his life to making money, he devoted it to public service. His privileged background allowed him to pursue ideals rather than worrying about making money. After seeing the reality of the battlefield, he became a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War. He went to law school and continued to dedicate himself to public service.

John Kerry could have live comfortably on his family's assets, he could have become a corporate lawyer, but at every critical point in his life John Kerry chose to serve his country rather than pursue personal wealth. Giving up money and fame is most certainly a heroic act when combined with a noble sacrifice.

Pat Tillman may have been fighting in George Bush's war, but he has a lot more in common with John Kerry. These two men each gave up a life of comfort to fight for their country, and they were both heroic in combat. Their lives have been defined by hard work and sacrifice.

Pat Tillman is a hero. John Kerry is a hero. George Bush is the odd man out.

...sorry if this is a little bit rambling, but this is what I thought when I heard Maria Shriver quoting JFK at Pat Tillman's memorial service today...

I wonder how many other uneducated kids his story will attract into war and how valuable his image will become to the armed forces advertising campaigns over the next few years. It's a shame really, that he can't come back and tell us he made a HUGE mistake like Kerry did.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

...it is the politicians that order the soldiers into war. Blame Bush, not the army...

I personally would be happy to see kids choose the armed forces over football. More people in the army isn't a problem. A society obsessed with earning a fat paycheck is a problem. The lesson here should be that making money does not make you a hero, and I'm happy to have that out there.

lies with the fact that there were 700+ other men and women who also died, all unsung heroes, all as brave, all with families left behind to grieve and the government didn't even want anyone to see their caskets.

He is given television time, other soldiers are not. The rest of the stuff people yell about, to me, is just crap. I don't care if you agree with the war or not (I don't), he was willing to risk his life for his country. I am willing to give him that.

Maybe some think less of Tillman "because of his money," but I think that's rather weird. Regardless, the example you provide is saying something completely different.

The problem is not with Tillman. The problem is with the media and to some extent government's reaction to Tillman's death. His death took place at a point in time when close to five people were dying every day, and few in the media were acknowledging it as a tragedy on any level, and the government was doing nothing but acknowledging it through the sterile DoD reports.

Tillman is killed, and suddenly the death of a soldier is front page news.

Why? Why is Tillman's face and life story plastered across every newspaper in the country and all the news channels, and then why was the roll call of the "Fallen" banned from various ABC channels? Why is it more noble for an individual to give up a lucrative sports contract to enlist in the armed forces than it is for a poor kid from the middle of nowhere to do so? All the soldiers who have died are just as dead as Tillman. They all died for a lie. They all left family and friends behind them. Are they not just as deserving of recognition?

I have no problem with Tillman specifically. I didn't know him, hadn't even heard of him before his death because I don't follow pro football. I had heard of the guy who once lived a few miles from where I once worked who died earlier in the month. No one but locals know he died. No one outside Oklahoma ever say his face as one of the dead until the broadcast the other night that quickly showed all of them.

I suspect there is also an element of backlash against the hero worship of sports figures. I have a lot more respect and use for the guy who unclogged my toilet last week than I do anyone who plays professional sports.

...there is nothing that makes Pat Tillman inherently better than anyone else as a person, and nothing that makes him more noble than the other soldiers who have died, but his story is certainly more notable...

It may not be fair that others are not getting the attention Tillman gets, but I would rather one fallen soldier get all this attention than have nobody get any attention at all. In fact, I think it draws more attention to all the other soldiers when there is a poster boy for the media to use.

Giving up a lucrative sports contract is simply a better story than a poor kid joining the army. That does not make Tillman a better person, but "hero" isn't really an objective standard. Nobody is labeled a hero unless the circumstances are right - if Bush hadn't gotten us into this war none of these kids would be heroes. The circumstances matter, and I think Tillman giving up the contract does add something to his hero status.

Kerry giving up all his priviliges and Tillman giving up his money certainly counts for something. It doesn't make either of them better people, but I think it is something to be celebrated. The monetary sacrifice doesn't make them more noble, but it makes their stories more notable, and the media is simply reflecting that fact.

As a practical matter, I certainly understand that Tillman's death is more notable. Thus, the story of his life and death is more likely to be covered by the media. That's simply a fact of journalistic life. Famous people make the news for all kinds of reasons that a local grocery clerk wouldn't.

That said, the stories I've read in the media do paint him as a hero, in part because he gave up money and a sports career to willingly fight in this war. And this is suggestive to other youths who do, for better or worse, worship sports figures that in order to be respected, they must give up whatever is important to them and fight in this war in order to be considered "real" Americans. It's not so much the fact of the media coverage as its tone.

I certainly cannot speak for all of DU, and I have not followed every thread that discusses Tillman. I actually deliberately avoided most of them after the first few days following his death because, as I said, I have little use for sports figures and felt everything else being said was just rehashing the same comments. However, your question intrigued me.

With that in mind, I do not think most of DU thinks less of Tillman because of his money. Maybe I'm wrong on that. Maybe I have no business speculating. So, I'll just say that I have nothing against Tillman the individual, regardless of the money. I am fed up with the media's worshipful treatment of Tillman and the implicit message that is being presented.

In closing, I will say I'm in agreement with you in that I'm thankful Tillman's death brought the message of the war's cost home to some who might otherwise never have noticed.

I don't know what was going through his head. He could have had the best intentions.

What I see from the folks that ran to the recruiting station is they wanted revenge. The chance to kill some sand niggers that knocked down our buildings.

Sorry if that offended anyone, it wasn't a blanket statement. I just think a small percentage feel that way..

I repeat, "small percentage". I know you are not making a blanket statement (that is what you say in your post), but I wish others would understand that -- a "small percentage" of soldiers have bloodlust.

My husband was in Iraq. He personally did not kill anyone. He did see a few Iraqis get killed. He and his friends NEVER talk about it. They do not make notches on their belts for number of kills. They do not brag about it. They did not join the military to kill people. It is a small percentage of soldiers that give all 1.5 million a bad name.

How can you be sorry about using the word sand niggers, it a offended word to begin with, you know it and you knew when you use it, Its seems that anything that not White in your case is some how a Nigger IE sand niggers Blanket statement my ass, I don't know what was going through your head to use that word

The posters use of the term was used in the context of how he thought those that he was referring to would think of Arabs...not his/her own opinion.

I thought that was pretty clear.

mourned. But what about the real people. Each death in Iraq/Afghanistan effects many lives. What about the poor guy that signed up after 9/11 with the same commitment of service. Why don't we know their names.

on edit spelling and clarification.

We know their names but not their stories...

He had white horses
And ladies by the score
All dressed in satin
And waiting by the door

Ooooh, what a lucky man he was
Ooooh, what a lucky man he was

White lace and feathers
They made up his bed
A gold covered mattress
On which he was laid

Ooooh, what a lucky man he was
Ooooh, what a lucky man he was

He went to fight wars
For his country and his king
Of his honor and his glory
The people would sing

Ooooh, what a lucky man he was
Ooooh, what a lucky man he was

A bullet had found him
His blood ran as he cried
No money could save him
So he laid down and he died

Ooooh, what a lucky man he was
Ooooh, what a lucky man he was

In the end, death "levels the playing field."

(from your "Starve The Beast" comrade, bundbuster)

Seems like the beast is mutating a bit lately. A lot less fuzzy, more claws and venomous fangs these days. It looks hungry, like it might want to eat a few other countries.

:nopity:

And I agree with you.

Sure, there's a sickness inherent in him seeming more 'important' than other KIAs, but that sickness is owned by the mass media...it's a problem long endemic to those branches of the media devoted to sensationalism and catering to the lowest common denominator.

It's not just the celebrity "heros" who get the coverage. Celebrity "villains" can be just as entertaining. Were OJ's alleged crimes really more intriguing than other murders? Did Kobe's alleged rape really merit more coverage than any other such case? The big money guys really are treated as a different caste.

And that's what the newsmedia is now, just another type of entertainment, infomercials for the dominant worldview. The big money advertisers call the shots for news coverage, and the deregulated station owners decide what gets censored.

collective American psyche that seems to relish tearing down icons that've been built up over the years. It's happened over and over...Fatty Arbuckle was just one early example.

I admire his convictions. I feel they were tragically misguided, but at least he had the fortitude to put his money where his mouth was.

btw this is definately not criticism merely an observation..american culture is quick to promote heroes and this may or may not be a good thing, i shall let others judge that..in this particular case a young man gave up sporting contracts to fight in war in far off land..he died..in my view needlessly..he gave his life in an expression of patriotism as portrayed by the media and government spokespeople..patriotism that is an extension of a mainly secular society..many here may remember cat stevens..whom gave up fame and fortune to become yusuf islam..I don't remember Islam defining stevens as a hero for his abandonement of western culture, he was just accepted into the faith..thats a purely theological approach..what is being promoted is a clash of fundamentalisms/civilisations and unfortunately young men such as tillman become merely pawns..

Wag the Dog...

How could we have a f'in war and forget the hero...


Pure propaganda pablum...

After 9/11, I think military action in Afghanistan was necessary. Tillman died fighting the bad guys in Afghanistan, so he is a hero in my book.

Almost all others had few if any choices and the military was the best of a limited set of options.

Those without choice are much more heroic than those with choice.

... I'm pretty sure it is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE.

I think less of him because he participated in an imperialist war, not for any other reason. Being brave does not equate to being a hero in my book... you can be brave for the wrong cause and Tillman certainly was.

...however, I have noted that there is a better group of people at lower classes, than at the middle class. I guess it's because you expect all kinds of human flaws when people don't have money. You just never expect those flaws to magnify once people get money.

is that if he hadn't been an athlete, with all the attendant special priveleges, etc. etc., he'd probably be in prison right now, instead of being celebrated as a hero.

close to a decade of pursuing outlets for violent tendancies does not make someone a hero to me. the money is irrelevant.

my father played football and went to vietnam...and he hasn't done anything worthy of being put in prison.

if they beat the shit out of someone outside a pizza joint and were convicted of felony assault - pray tell why mr. tillman was just given a slap on the wrist?


Pat Jr. grew into a ferocious high school football player who could intimidate with size, speed and attitude. Unfortunately he often did the same thing off the field. "People in our town were basically afraid of my brother," says Kevin. "He just has this tough-man mentality about him."

"If there was trouble, you looked for Pat first," says Beard. "Usually it wasn't serious." (note the patternof violent behavior) One time it was. In the fall of Pat's senior year, he went to the aid of a friend in a fight outside a pizza parlor and, in Pat's words, "beat the s---" out of his friend's assailant, who was in his early 20s. Several weeks after the incident Pat was arrested and charged as a juvenile (he was 17) with felony assault. Before the case was resolved, he accepted a scholarship to Arizona State (Brigham Young and San Jose State were the other schools that offered) but desperately feared it would be revoked. Pat quietly pleaded guilty to the charge. In the summer of '94 he served 30 days in a juvenile detention facility, and his conviction was reduced to a misdemeanor upon his release.

Tillman's incarceration ended two weeks before his first college football practice. Arizona State never learned of his trouble with the law.

from http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/magazine/04/23/tillman.flashback/

now that's criminal behavior to me - heroic behavior to you and the rest of this bloodthirsty nation, apparently.

which was think about somehting other than himself.

But I wasn't one of the posters saying anything negative, other than that his death is sad.

Shouldn't it be "SOME people on DU..."?

I don't care for The Rich, being a member of the Working Poor myself, but if I disliked Tillman (which I do NOT) his giving up a big entertainment contract to do something he believed in wouldn't be the reason.

People need to make the difference between the man and those using him - like with jessica Lynch. Hear that, Ted Rall?