is Mother Earth trying to tell us something? . . .

the amount of worrisome environmental news coming out in the past few weeks has been pretty devastating . . . I've read about some area of California where 75% of the pine trees have died; threats to both oaks and ashes in the east and midwest; a dramatically falling water table in an area of Washington State; bird flu, mad cow disease, and a host of other potentially devastating illnesses; falling fish populations, and a particular species in Yellowstone that caught some virus that causes it to swim around in circles; snow caps and glaciers melting at unheard of rates; peak oil, and all that implies; and on, and on, and on . . .

if the Earth is indeed a self-regulating system, think maybe humankind has gummed things up so much that the only way the system can return to some kind of equilibrium is to get rid of the parasites causing all the problems? . . . just wonderin' . . .

Do you mean like the way some fundies insist that God talks to them and instructs them?

And whatever do you mean when you suggest that "the system" can return to equilibrium by ridding itself of all "the parasites" causing the problems?

Are you suggesting that human beings are nothing but "parasites"??

then use it.

does NOT fit me.

Does it fit you??

While putting little more than destruction and chaos back into it.

Hey...I can walk outside and SEE Mother Nature.

I don't need to 'have faith' in Mother Nature anymore than a fish needs to have 'faith' to believe in the ocean.

I wouldn't say humans are parasites. It's more like when normal cells in a body go haywire, and decide that they will grow without bounds, even if it kills the host. I think there's a word for that kind of thing: cancer.

I'm confused here.....

Are we talking about Mother Nature or Mother Earth?

Is the Mother Nature that you see the same one that appeared in those margerine commercials on TV during the late '70's?

What color is her hair? Does she wear it "up" or down?

Does she have a dress on/

When she speaks, what language does she use? English? Spanish? Togalog?

Does she have an email address?

on edit - I forgot to ask this -- If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that human beings are part of one large cancerous tumor on "Mother Nature". My understanding of cancer is that it is always best to kill off as many cancer cells as possible as quickly as possible.

What are you suggesting concerning the cancerous tumor growing on "Mother Nature"????

...a large blue and green orb with white clouds of water vapor floating about. Closer in, she appears to be made of many individual bodies, much like an multicellular organism. Except she's more of a multi-organism organism.

I've always thought of the terms 'Mother Earth' and 'Mother Nature' as functionally interchangeable. Don't be so anthropomorphic...geez.

She speaks to me all the time, but not in any human language. She probably talks to you too, but perhaps you aren't listening closely enough to notice.

And no, she does not have email. She's never met anyone else like her, but is hopeful there are others out there.

"Don't be so anthropomorphic"

Thanks.

I'll try not to be soo anthropomorphic.

Would it be all right if, instead of speaking about "Mother" Earth or "Mother" Nature, I spoke instead about Earth and Nature??

It's all referring about the same bio-sphere being after all.

You can call it 'Fred' if you like, I don't think it cares (anymore than you'd care what one of your skin cells called 'you' -- as long as they don't get cancerous, it doesn't matter...).

feel free.

I just don't think "Fred" has any feelings at all.

"Fred" isn't a person, after all. And I do so try not to be anthropomorphic.

Is the Earth's biosphere 'Alive' or not?

Maybe that's not really the question. It's made entirely of things that are alive, so it's pretty obviously 'life'.

But does it think? Does it have an Earth-mind of some kind?

I had one of those ineffable experiences once that told me yes, it does have a 'mind', but it's not very much like ours. Ineffable experiences are hardly 'proof', however. I realize that.

I try to avoid the use of the word 'person' in this. 'Person' is actually more of a legal term, if you think about it. Not all humans have even been considered 'persons' at times in our history.

I'd submit that just as cells are organized into organs and organisms, organisms are organized into bio-regions and the biosphere itself. It's pretty much a matter of scale, or your point of view. The processes known as 'Life' work this way on all levels.

Just because we cannot 'talk' to the biosphere doesn't mean it doesn't 'think'. What sort of communication does the bio-electric pattern known as 'you' have with any one of the cells that make 'you'? Probably very little.

If the planet's biosphere 'thinks', I'd suggest that it should be scientifically proveable, just as a person's brainwave patterns can be measured. Not that this would help one communicate in any way, but it should be possible to prove that there is a larger pattern of some kind.

Perhaps the question is: Is the biosphere something greater than the sum of it's parts. If you dissassemble it into it's component species, say a really huge 'zoo' of some sort, is it the same as when it's left together?

Humans would obviously fail this: We are more than the sum of our parts. If I took each of your cells out of your body, and put them all in individual petrie dishes without killing any of them, say through a miracle of alien science of some kind, at some point in the process, 'you' would cease to exist, and all we'd have left is a bunch of individual cells in millions of petrie dishes.

So where is this 'planet mind'? I don't honestly know, but have a strong sense it's right in front of our faces -- definitely a not seeing the forest for the trees situation.

Think of the banal, boring existence of one of your brain neurons: All the time, just receiving stupid 'Hey, pass it on' messages from your neighbors, and then telling the guys next to you the same thing. But when put together, all those mundane electrical impulses create a pattern which is your 'mind'. I doubt that brain cells have the slightest conception of what they are doing in the larger sense.

I see no need to imagine anything 'spooky' or 'astral' about it.

BTW, Anthropomorphism is sort of a natural thought mechanism for humans. Hell, lots of people give their cars names, too. Doesn't mean their cars don't exist, though.

I would expect a Diversionary Straw Man followied by some Semantic nitpicking in response from our pal.

You are wasting your time.

If a monkey looks in, no saint looks out.

:shrug:

It's not all just for his benefit. I'm just putting it out there.

:toast:

Second, as we are now living through WWII again with us as the Nazis, illustrating that if human learn anything or evolve at all mentally, it is at too slow a pace to save us.

As we are adaptable critters, and hardy, too, I expect the "Death Phase" (read a microbiology textbook, overlay the Lag/Log/Stationary/Death Phases Graph over the Human Population Curve from the beginning of humans a million years ago to now.

Isn't it funny how they match perfectly and identically?

I used to think the Human Race would NOT be doing a service to the Universe by going extinct. Now I'm not so sure.

We are stupid creatures, almost incapable of advances other than technical, as refighting WWII with the WINNERS of WWII playing the Nazis this time around, shows quite clearly.

You can bandy semantics all you want, but it certainly is POSSIBLE (note that I didn't say probable) that in the Big Picture, humans are the Fungal Infection of the Immunosuppressed Earth (or the Cancerous Growth, if you wish, as I said it's all arguing over Semantics, not substantive issues). Ever read how AIDS patients die when their immune system can no longer fight off simple fungal infections that a Helathy Body kills a dozen times a day?

And I don't think anyone is "suggesting" anything about the "cancerous tumor". The Natural Laws (physics, chemsitry, biology) determine the Life Cycle of a Cancer Tumor, a Microbial Colony on a Limited Petrie Dish, or a Human Colony on a limited Earth. And in the end, if we cannot overcome our animalistic nature, then we will be unable to survivie in the long run because Natural Law, not ourselves, will determine our fate.

And Natural law is not kind to Species Failures and Evolutionary Dead Ends. Which it's looking more and more as if thats what Homo Sapiens are.

As humans, we are animals and clearly still very much so with little hope of ever even remotely rising above that. Carl Sagan's vision of hope was clearly dead wrong. No colonizing the stars for us, that much is clear. Dying in a pool of our own feces is more like it.

Think about that when considering the next two millenia. Will it happen like that? I don't know. Is the evidence piling up regarding the Fundamnetal Shrotsightedness and Stupidity of We Humans?

To quote Dr. Strangefeld, "You betcha."

Time will tell, and nothing but. We are passing, if we have not alrteady passed, the Point of No Return.

de-caffeinnated products.

Just debated me into the ground, didn't you?

Wanna try again, or is that the best you can do.

Perhaps start over and civilly try to respond to my points, if you can?

I'll give you a freebie without the flaming such a ludicrous and pointless post deserves.

One more time from the top:

1) Exactly why is my analogy incorrect?

2) Why do you not debate but instead go 'round in circles building Straw Men, knocking them down (ooooh, you're good), and sneering contemptuously?

3) Are you familiar with the Microbial Growth/Death Curve and why isn't it relevant that it is an identical overlay to the first million years of human population growth?

Sure there are more things I could pin you down on in order to try and force you to give a straight, direct and civil answer.

Though I would like to be surprised, my previous experience suggest you will be either incapable or unwilling to list direct answers to my questions.

Surprise me, though, outinforce.

I am glad you posted here today, outiforce because it reminds me that I have in the past considered you a possible (COMMENT REDACTED TO PREVENT BANNING).

Are you? Not that you'd tell me if you were.

So, though I expect another pithy non sequitur or perhaps a nonsensical red herring or a good old fashioned Straw Man, here I sit and ask you to explain your position.

Somhow, I'm guessing you won't do that. But there's always room for me to be surprised.

that you enjoyed my response.

I'm afraid I'll have to decline your very generous offer to engage you in serious debate.

There are a few reasons for my choice to do this.

One reason is that I do not find it a particularly useful use of my time to engage in serious discussion people who, when they invite me to serious discussion, say things like this:

"Why do you not debate but instead go 'round in circles building Straw Men, knocking them down (ooooh, you're good), and sneering contemptuously?"

Such comments have the effect, on me at least, of thinking that what I perceive as the other person's deep hostility will get in the way of serious discussion.

Another thing influencing my choice not to engage you in serious discussion is this:

"I am glad you posted here today, outiforce because it reminds me that I have in the past considered you a possible (COMMENT REDACTED TO PREVENT BANNING).

Are you? Not that you'd tell me if you were."

Again, it's my perception of hostility.

And, to answer your question -- Yes. Yes I am. Are you one, too? Have we met in one of the places that "my kind" tends to hang out in?

Finally, you have asked me to "explain my position".

I will do that -- my position is that there is no such thing as "mother nature" or "mother eatth" -- only Earth and Nature.

I hope that is clear.

Got a problem with environmentalism? Metaphors?

One of two things. The first I cannot say because it will catch me a warning.

The second is that some people are simply wired that way. They would rather insult and cut down than discuss. What the individual's motivations for becoming like this are as varied as the snowflakes that fall? Abusive childhood? Overactive ego? Overinflated self-esteems (a big problem these days)?

Sometimes, motivations are unimportant. Only actions are.

"The Answer is clear".

"The second is that some people are simply wired that way. They would rather insult and cut down than discuss."

Do you mean that there are some people who appear to enjoy suggesting that other people (people that some appear to have great feelings of hostitily towards) are motivated by Abusive childhood or overactive ego or overinflated self-esteem?

Those sound like smarmy insults which cut down.

To me, anyway.

I have very little tolerance remaining for Straw Men and Semantic Boondoggles.

My first post was a very civil "invitation to debate". I apologize if you became upset because I called you on your Diversionary Semantic Straw Man. Do you always get madder at the messenger when you dislike the truthful message? You got busted, plain and simple. The whole contrived "Mother Nature" thing was just an excuse for you to type something without having to say anything.

Again, my apologies for pointing out somevery diversionary and dioshonest rhetoric. Of course, I didn't generate the nonsensical semantic diversion myself, but feel free to blame me anyway.

Finally, a HUGE "Begging the Question" at the end. You really think that explained your position in any way remotely like that which I asked for?

Thank you. You explained your Semantic Red Herring quite clearly. You didn't say anything, really, so you could have saved the keystrokes, but thanks for confirming your argumenative moribundity.

What you said, however is not a position and was not what I was asking for.

But then...you knew that, didn't you?

Better go parctice your Rhetorical Sleight-of-Hand on someone less ready to point it out to you, which clearly bruises your ego.

I am truly confused here, tom_paine.

In a recent post, I think you suggested that I had an "overatcive ego".

But now I see you suggesting that I have an ego which has been bruised.

Let me assure you that my ego is in great shape -- not overactive, and certainly not bruised.

I am also hurt that you have feelings of hostility for me. Although I do appreciate your honesty in conveying your feelings to me, still, it does hurt to know that someone else harbors feelings of hostility against me.

And could you clear up one other little thing for me.

You say in this post that your "first post was a very civil "invitation to debate"

That "very civil invitation to debate", was that the one your headlined thus: "First off, nice diversionary Straw Man"??

The one which also suggested that I was bandying semantics about?

Why, I can't imagine how I could have missed the civility -- the "very" civility -- of that post.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Yes - that about sums up how I see the situation.



I don't know how anyone could look at what we are doing to the world - esp. Americans - and come to any other conclusion.

Humans as a very bad case of athlete's foot.

Let's get the anti-fungal solution out. Now. Before it spreads any further.

Isn't that what you do to a fungal infection -- especially when it infects something that is immuno-compromised?

the far simpler solution would be for everyone to stop reproducing by whichever means they find the most attractive.

Same sex sex, abstinence, birth control, abortions, etc.


We already have too many "anti-fungal solutions". Why kill everything slowly and screw up everything with more chemicals and all that rot.


Just like those anti-bacterial soaps that are bad. They just encourage bacteria that can fight them. People need to just quit. And they can't.

(although in truth, I guess I already have)

Some people don't want to discuss. Sneering is their favorite sport. I'll leave it to your imagination to determine whom I am speaking of.

"everyone should stop reproducing"???

Are you familiar with a religion known as the "Shakers"??

I think I am correct when I say that one of their fundamental believes was that sex was evil and should be avoided.

Pretty soon -- no Shakers.

Are you seriously suggesting the extinction of the Human Race?

I was sort of jiving you but, it is happening here to some extent. People choosing not to have children. I think that is a natural reaction to feeling overcrowded.

Yes - I am familiar with the Shakers.

I think people will destroy themselves sooner or later. Unfortunately, I think they will take all the life on the planet down with 'em.


Why does it matter if people exist or not? I seriously do think the world would be better off without us.

had, I assure you, nothing to do with any feelings of being overcrowded.

It had much more to do with my feelings towards other men.

You seriously think the world would be better off without humanity?

Whenever that thought creeps into my mind, a listen to Beethoven's music. And the thought quickly dissipates into nothingness.

when I am in a beautiful place that people haven't screwed up yet.


One of my favorite things to do is to get large areas of wildflowers growing that someone else had turned into an industrial, lifeless lawn or parking area.

I am thrilled to see new species of birds and interesting wildlife that I haven't seen before.


I love some art, as well. Too bad we can't have the beautiful without mucking the place up. I blame capitalism gone ballistic.



Also - I think the not having of children - while some choose consciously not to for population reasons, I think it can be a subconscious decision for others (NOT necessrily YOU, just in general), esp. when there are options.

Yeah, something like that, but like the old saying, "if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand". To quote "The Matrix" - "human beings are a disease, a plague". If you don't believe it, go hang out at Free Republic for an afternoon. You'll see what I mean.

it is a great idea to base one views -- especially on things like the value of the hunman race -- on movies.

I just thought it was an eloquent way to put it. On the other hand, I didn't realize we were discussing "hunmans", a subject on which I have no opinions.

Similarly, a good idea is a good idea, even if it came from a caveman.

I once wrote a paper for an English class about the anti-scientific nature of "skeptics" - one of the points in the paper was how they used the source of an idea as an attack on the idea, essentially an ad hominem attack.

The point is that, just because a character in the movie The Matrix referred to humanity as a cancer upon the Earth has no effect on its truth value.

it's a little too hard to tell what Mother Earth is saying without some sort of history to study. Every day is a new day!

"Mother Earth"?

As for "parasite":
1. Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
2.a. One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.

"We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are."

That as a species with our current habits we are Doomed to the trash bin of History.

She doesn't give a rats ass if we stay or go.

Half of the butterfly population is gone.

And personally, I believe the weather conditions all over the place are wonky.

"The weather has been screwy ever since they put that Sputnik up."

That pretty much every year there have been calamaties of some sort, these are not unlike others.

I am sure we need to do something, but it is too late now. Just wait for the superplague to come through and wipe out 90% of the Earths population.

That, ultimately, will be Mother Nature's defense mehanism.

If he gets his way 90% of the population will be destroyed.

...whether due to disease or to famine from climate change. We are overdue, probably for a pandemic of some kind like the 1918 flu.

maybe this will help a bit...it is one massive wheel and a lot of ceremony focused for the Earth that day!!


All Systems Are Go for the May 8 Medicine Wheel
-- Envelops All of Western America --


With less than a week to go, the entire, vast Medicine Wheel Ceremony set for May 8 is  set to go forward. This unprecedented gathering will encompass the American West, and completely envelop the Rocky Mountains.  It will involve traditional Native American peoples in cooperation with people of all other racial, national, and spiritual traditions in a unified effort to help re-establish the health of the Earth.

Locations and contacts around the American West -- and in many other places around the world -- have been set. Dozens of people have come forward to serve as contacts and facilitators. Many thousands of people are expected to participate.

After two months on the road, Medicine Wheel visionary and organizer Bennie LeBeau has just  returned home to Wyoming to make final preparations for the ceremony at the center of the Wheel, the Grand Teton mountains.  He said all 20 sites that are part of the Wheel -- and many others in support -- have been prepared.  He said, "Tribes and people from other cultures all around the Wheel have been joining to participate.  It is working really well so far, and the ceremonies just have final preparations to complete before May 8."  He mentioned that the specific location of the Grand Teton ceremony would now likely be the Eastern Shoshone Sundance Grounds, but that interested people should check the  relevant web sites (see below) later this week for final confirmation of the place to go.



Medicine Wheel Locations and Contacts:

http://www.chiron-communications.com/medwheelsites.html
http://www.shrinesandsacredsites.com
http://www.VortexMaps.com  

Original Medicine Wheel story with maps and photos

http://www.chiron-communications.com/communique%209-2.html


Bennie LeBeau's Home Page

http://www.shrinesandsacredsites.com/teton/19plus1.htm

Spiritual Elders of Mother Earth

http://www.spiritualelders.org




Peace
DR

for the Earth, for our children, and for our children's children.

We are set for some nice ceremony here...sounds like everything is a major GO!! :thumbsup:

How are you doing on your website?? will email ya about that...

:hug:
DR

His line was busy. Probably on phone with the Pope. I wonder about those two at times.

Allah said "damn skippy" which I think means yes. I can never figure out what's going on in his hashish clouded brain.

Jesus blocks my number (don't ask).

Buddha said to call back after his mid-early-afternoon snack.

The Hindu gods have unlisted numbers and don't feel I'm "enlightened enough" to be "in", the elitist pricks.

And the atheist doesn't have a phone.

I got better.

an oasis in the wilderness of space. Of course, she'll be fine without us, if we decide to smoke ourselves out.

:scared:

that is how I see it, simply put, we do not have a sustainable system. The Earth has been for over 4 billion years, a self sustaining system, we humans in the past 150 years have been living WELL beyond sustainability. I would not say life on Earth is in danger, for it will exist somewhere on this planet, whether we survive or not, for at least another 4 billion years, when Sol finally consumes the planet in its red giant phase. Even if we wiped out all surface life in a nuclear war, bacteria, many ocean animals, and possibly even algae will survive, to start evolution again.

That is besides the point, extinctions happen, and to say that we are immune is foolhardy, for we are simply another animal on this planet, granted one that is adaptable and intelligent. We are living beyond our means, and just like any other species we will pay for it. The question will be how WE will react to the hardships ahead, and how will we survive.