Vietnam, hippies, and what the right forgets

. . .it wasn't about political parties back then. We on the left protested the war and were as anti-Johnson as we were anti-Nixon. There wasn't any Dem=liberal-so-defend-him-even-when-he's-flat-out-wrong stuff. I think, historically, the left has been willing to take on their own party over things that are just plain bloody wrong and the right has to be dragged kicking and screaming and shown pictures of cat-raping afore they will even start to wake up. Geez, you still have folks on the right defending Nixon, fer crap's sake. (And I have also since learned more about the good that Johnson did - The Great Society, for example.)

Which is what is giving me such pause about Kerry (not enough to not vote and work for him.) I can make my peace (and have) with the Iraq resolution vote. But since the torture stuff came out I KNOW we cannot win this. No fucking way. Not in 10 years, not in 20. Not in 200. I wish I could get some secret "signal" or something that Kerry knows this too. It ain't enough to say "bring in the UN" when the UN doesn't want to go in. Ditto, NATO.

The similarity between Iraq and Vietnam that scares me the most is that Kerry is as likely to continue the war as Bush will - albeit, Kerry WILL be able to work with our allies and Bush has demonstrated he can NOT. Those of us who lived through Vietnam remember all too well how Presidents will continue pointless wars because we "cannot" lose. Only the point they miss, while thousands more die, is that we already have.

eileen from OH

"The similarity between Iraq and Vietnam that scares me the most is that Kerry is as likely to continue the war as Bush will - albeit, Kerry WILL be able to work with our allies and Bush has demonstrated he can NOT"

Right now we have no allies.

old friendships and re-establish alliances and Bush does not. Of course, he's got to stop with the "yes, yes, oh, my yes" stuff with Bush and Sharon about Israel/Palestine in order to do so. THAT was probably my biggest "oh dammit" moment of the Kerry campaign.

eileen from OH

eom

But if Kerry is elected and takes a very pro-active stance, coupled with a really solid Sec. of State, there's a chance we could win back at least some of our European allies - depending on the plan and whether or not the US is willing to give up political control. Ditto for Mideast countries.

The thing is, a lot of those countries HATE Bush but are ambivalent or at least open, to dealing with someone else. And it IS true that Europe and Mideast know that it's in THEIR best interest to have a stable Iraq. What stops them now - because of inside political forces - isn't as much America in general as it's Bush in particular.

eileen from OH

brought in the arab league. it is their back yard. they were excluded by bush. they certainly have interst

my thought is, kerry can certainly see a vietnam, and i think he has shifted in his talk in just what has happened in a week.

a couple weeks ago i said whatever kerry says now doesnt matter, so much is happening there always changing and quickly. he has 8 months before he gets in to office. who knows what will be happening in the country then. one thing about kerry we know and love, he contemplats adn thinks, ya that is right, a guinne deep thinker, adn as things change, i am sure he is capable too

just cant hang what kerry said a month ago on this now and certainly not a future that hasnt happened