Torture used as excuse to reinstate DRAFT

DONALD RUMSFELD MUST GO: MILITARY MUST BE PUT ON A LEASH
Posted by Clayton Hallmark on Friday May 7, 2004 at 10:29 pm MST
<snip>
How to bring the US Military Uniformed Forces Under Control?
It might take a Constitutional Amendment.

1. Perhaps there should be Civilian Review Committees established, just as there are for police forces in some US cities. The present setup involving the Commander-in-Chief and the DefSec isn't good enough, events have proved.

2. The draft should be reinstated so that the services do not have to rely on recruits from the backwoods and backwaters of America who join for self-serving reasons because they don't have much else going.

3. The US should reinstate the International Criminal Court treaty, which the Bush administration practically unilaterally withdrew the US from in 2003. This way the US forces could receive meaningful trials, and punishments, under international law, for war crimes.

4. Congress must investigate military discipline and set up measures to restablish it. West Point and the other service acadamies must be investigated, by civilians, to find the weaknesses in military training, which apparently exist from top to bottom and which allow such a breakdown of discipline as we are seeing now.

http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=11412

Reinstate the draft so that you make unwilling people go instead of "recruits from the backwoods and backwaters of America who join for self-serving reasons because they don't have much else going". By golly, that'll help!

:wtf:

There seemes to an epidemic of dumb ideas lately.

It was such a raging success in preventing atrocities in VietNam.

Instead of having volunteers, we're going to have people who don't want to be there and have no motivation to be there other than avoidance of prison?

How will that improve things? They'll be so busy fragging their commanding officers they won't have time to torture the prisoners?

And you can bet the majority of conscripts will not hesitate to tell the American public about any wrongdoing in Iraq.

The military brass will have to keep looking over their shoulders to see who will be there ready to "spill the beans." The tension among them would be unreal.

I listened to interviews on NPR yesterday with VN vets (and some current service members). At least two of them referred to the soldier who came forward with the story as a "snitch". I won't repeat what they said would have happened to him in VN. Unfortunately, their (implied) definition of "honor" serves the neo con agenda all too well.

I can't find the story posted on npr site yet.
Related stories >>

http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1876015.html

... demagogues will use the draft to provide cannon fodder for imperial exploits.

Resisting the implementation of the draft in these times will force the military to limit their expansionist policies.

The Democrats continue to think this is a good thing, as long as they think they can draft legislation which is all-inclusive. They never consider that the draft has never been all-inclusive.

Bush's daughters, Hastert's, Cheney's, Frist's and DeLay's kids will never have to dodge bullets. Never. A new draft will not be different than the old draft, no matter how much the Democrats wish for it to be different. A new draft will simply provide more bodies for all the military adventures the neo-cons imagine.

Lots of stupidity in action, these days. Democrats think they'll get votes for this. Stupid, and wrong.

Democrats don't support a draft. If Bush wins its a sure thing. Quit lying.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/

I do. It's just the thing to wake up the American public. Nothing so focuses your mind like your own execution.

No exemptions this time. Send the college kids first. That'll teach 'em for voting for Nader.

And why do you accuse the other poster of lying? That's just rude.

It sure won't be in the platform. Rangel is one Democrat. Not most. Calling liars out is essential,not rude.

I served in the all volunteer force and there was never any doubt in mind mind about two things.

First, the idea of a serious national debate on how the military is used to pursue foreign policy goals is a thing of the past. The War Powers Act gives the President some very far reaching authority to send in the troops without anyone's consent. And God knows, Presidents of both parties haven't hesitated to do so.

Second, if my dumb volunteer ass had gotten shot off no one outside my immediate family was going to give a damn! Hell, as a volunteer I was practically asking to get my ass shot off according to a lot of people.

Now lets look back to the days when dinosaurs still roamed the earth, the Vietnam War. Antiwar protesters turned out by the 100,000s in some cases. I big antiwar protest these days seems to be 15 people with a couple of signs.

Although it is sometimes slow to do so, the American government eventually does yield to the will of the people, if for no other reason than to get itself re-elected! And right now most American people really don't care. OK, a poll says 60% are against the war...whatever. How many of them are actually doing anything to stop it! Damn few I'm afraid. As citizens we've abdicated our responsibility for keeping our government's foreign policy in check, at least in part I think because the average person doesn't feel immediately impacted by these decisions. The draft would sure as hell change that in a hurry.

As counter-intuitive as it seems, I really believe that if you really want peace, you'll support the draft. Using the current war in Iraq as an example: I doubt Bush would have had the balls to start this war if doing so had required getting draftees killed!

Charlie Rangel requested a renewal of the draft more than a year ago, thinking that he could involve the children of the chickenhawks by doing so.

Get off it and read. I wrote about this over a year ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/01/07_rangel.html

If you want credence for your views, research the facts. Democrats have been in favor of such for some time. If research doesn't support your views, graciously accede.

Until you do the drill and investigate, I suggest you refrain from the "lying" allegations.

Now Rangel is the whole Democratic Party. Thanks I didn't know that.

Dig your head out.

Kerry has also proposed similar schemes.

You said, simply, that Democrats were not behind the call for the draft, and I gave you an example of one prominent Democrat who has done so, and you give the specious shit that "Rangel is all Democrats." You evade the real point as deftly as any right-wing Republican.

Did you actually read the article? I think not.

The points in it probably agree with your views, if one were simply to put "Repug" in place of "Rangel."

Rangel is wrong for suggesting the draft, in today's context, and Democrats are wrong for supporting it.

You accused me of lying, and I provided you with truth, and you don't like it. Accept it. It's the truth.

rank and file democrats do NOT support enforced slavery to this nation (ie the draft).

If pompous democrats serving at the federal level reinstate the draft, a large majority of the country will vote republican for the rest of their lives or until the repug facists cancel elections.

Whichever comes first.

This fantasy that a new draft will include everyone is the worst delusion I have seen spouted by either political extreme in a long long time. The rich will not serve in the sand. The rich will protect their own and we'll be drafting the same "backwater" losers that enlist from West Virginia now.

that the USSC doesn't view the draft as slavey (violation of the 13th Amendment.)

I'm 100% against the draft, but our government, affirmed by the USSC, has placed national security over the rights of the individual in times of duress.

it's frustrating at a fundamental human rights level.

But, then, given the climate these days...fundamental human rights mean absolutely nothing anyway.

Sometimes I feel my time and energy would be better spent repeating "I love Big Brother" until I believe.

Do you have a link to back that up? Kerry has a No-Draft plan to increase troop size.

has a NO- DRAFT Plan.

This summer Bush is reducing DRAFT ACTIVATION time by having the SSS conduct NATIONWIDE EXERCISES to test the whole system, even to the point of filling all DRAFT BOARD vacancies and gearing up the Alternative Service for COs for the first time in three decades. With the current reactivation plan due to go into effect in a few weeks, the SSS must report to the Director on March 31, 2005 they are tuned up and ready to conscript within 75 days of reauthorization from Congress (just a trigger resolution is needed, no new law). The first lottery for 20 year-olds could be June 15, 2005.

http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

That's what Bush is doing. Quietly oiling up the DRAFT Machinery for Spring 2005.

Kerry's NO-DRAFT plan to raise 40,000 additional troops and avoid reinstatement of the draft is added up this way (my synthesis):

1. Move some paper-pushers to combat (lots of potential there in nearly a million non-active-duty)
2. Increase enlistment with real scholarships and pay raises
3. Let troops know Special Ops will hunt al-Queda, no more invasions needed, so Guard/Reserve re-up rate goes up. "Primarily a law enforcement effort, not a full military effort", say JK on MTP last Sunday.
4. Start a "Civilian Stability Corps" that would help in reconstructing Afghanistan and Iraq and relieve military pressure.
5. GET FOREIGN TROOPS TO COME INTO INSTEAD OF LEAVE IRAQ!!

http://www.candidatemap.com

"...I propose that we enlist thousands of them in a Civilian Stability Corps, a reserve organization of volunteers ready to help win the peace in troubled places. Like military reservists, they will have peacetime jobs; but in times of national need, they will be called into service to restore roads, renovate schools, open hospitals, repair power systems, draft a constitution, or build a police force. A Civilian Stability Corps can bring the best of America to the worst of the world—and reduce pressure on the military."
< Source: Kerry, John. "Protecting Our Military Families in Times of War: A Military Family Bill of Rights." March 17, 2004. http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0317.html >

With this NO-DRAFT PLAN, Kerry will not have to resort to conscription, even after Bush screwed the whole thing up.


From STOPTHEDRAFT.COM

http://technologyreports.net/stopthedraft/?articleID=2550

What do a former fighter pilot in the National Guard and a former officer in the Navy have in common? Both have promised not to reinstate the military draft if elected president.

Senator John Kerry has promised that if elected president he will not reinstate the military draft, but will increase troop numbers by 40,000.

President Bush and his staff have also promised the American public that there are no plans to reinstate the military draft.

-snip-

John Kerry wants to deploy 40,000 more troops to Iraq and finish the job quickly. Yet when asked how he would do it, he said that a draft is not needed and people will enlist. To his advantage, however, Senator Kerry was an anti-war activist after serving his duties as a Navy officer in the Vietnam War and knows first-hand the pitfalls of the military draft.

-snip-

Kerry said on MTP that we don't need to invade whole nations beyond Afghanistan. He has a plan to increase 40,000 troops without a draft, a plan to bring in foreign troops to Iraq.

There's this: http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2004_0330b.html

“When I returned from service in the military, I testified to the Congress about the racism in the military, about the lopsided application of the draft, the impact that it had on minority communities, the lopsided number of casualties, both African-American and Hispanic, predominantly.

“And I testified to the Congress about the inequality of the application of the draft and the way in which they were treated when they came home, left in communities that were neglected and lacked health care and education and other issues.”


Also this: http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1203a.html

"Kerry also said he doesn’t believe there is a need to reinstate the draft, a source of conflict during the Vietnam War. "

Send Jenna, Barb and sons and daughters of members of Congress first.

keep this sh*t up and you guarantee yourself perpetual war, just like the PNAC wants. Perle, Feith, Wolfowitz, Rummy, Cheney are the most evil people on the planet.

We have lost our way, we are led by liars and thieves, and the shepherds (Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter et. al.) serve to keep the sheep in line.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_draft_050704,00.html

WASHINGTON - Based on his 30 years in the Army and a recent visit to Iraq on business, retired Master Sgt. Jess Johnson of Dallas sees a military draft in America's future.

"I'm telling you, the draft is coming because we don't have the people any more," Johnson said.

A war beyond Iraq or a terrorist act on the scale of Sept. 11, 2001, is inevitable, he reasons, and the government will have to draft millions of men and women for the military and for homeland security, too.

The continuing fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan has strained the Army's force structure, the service admits, but most experts agree that reviving conscription isn't in the cards - especially in an election year.
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ends in 5 1/2 months ..

The country is far too divided to tolerate the imposition of a draft, particularly one designed to draft those who are not the ones in power. The last draft we had almost vibrated the country into tiny pieces.