Iraqi prisoners were 'suspects', never charged or proven guilty

- It's important to keep this 'Iraqi abuse scandal' in perspective. Many, if not all, of the prisoners in Iraq (and elsewhere) were never afforded any kind of due process that might have proven their guilt or innocence. They saw no judges or trials...just swept from the street and put in prisons with the assumption of guilt. Many others were family members of 'suspects'...kidnapped from their homes and 'interrogated' in order to extract information.

- This is the antithesis of everything we've been led to believe about 'American justice'. In other words...the United States is abusing prisoners (of war) that are merely SUSPECTED of a crime. Since there has been no process to determine guilt or innocence...many of those abused could be guilty of nothing more than being an Iraqi.

- The buck has to stop at the 'Commander in Chief' of the armed forces and the defense department for their original argument that those 'detained' in the 'war on terror' had no protection as prisoners of war or under the auspices of the Geneva Convention. Prisoners were rounded up like animals and put in cages and told they had no rights. The mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers of suspects were rounded up as well and held hostage until they 'cooperated' with their jailers.

- And yet...too many Americans seem to believe we had the 'right' to do this in the name of the 'war on terror'. They can't seem to see that we have become what we profess to hate. How could this be? Because their beloved Bush* told them that if anyone in the world wasn't with us...they were with the terrorists. These words of 'might is right' is the philosophy of fascists and racists who wage aggressive war against those who are weaker. It's the thought process of those who consider themselves to be part of a 'master race' that has dominion over all others.

- We've seen first hand why it's immoral to wage an unprovoked, aggressive war and then occupy countries pretending to be 'liberators'. Bush* and his staff are just as guilty of war crimes as those involved in the atrocities of Hitler's Germany. Continued support of the invasion of Iraq is tantamount to enabling an illegal occupation and ongoing war crimes. There is no other course but to leave Iraq and (finally) make the Bush* 'liberators' accountable for crimes of aggression in this generation's version of the Nuremberg Trials.

This is all so, so wrong.

...that all of 'our' prisoners deserve to be detained and that there can be no reasonable doubt that they're innocent. But there is no process in place to determine this type of thing...which means the Bush* forces are operating without any kind of oversight or judicial restraint.

- And then they insist that even though they're fighting a WAR on terrorism...that there's no such thing as a prisoner of that war. Everyone is simply a 'detainee' that can be treated like animals because...Bush* says so.

- This is what happens when a 'democratic' country allows their government to become a 'one-party state' and work outside of the Constitution. And this is what happens when Congress abdicated their responsibilities to the Constitution by relinquished all war powers to the executive branch.

- Congress helped create the Bush* monster. Now they must help to get rid of it.

:mad: Picture this: Riot police and SWAT teams swept the Podunk Valley Mall today and arrested all the shoppers. They are being held incommunicado at an undisclosed FEMA camp. No film permitted.

The Iraqi people are being horrifically brutalized and raped on every level by a run-amok *MIC in the name of the "interests" of the American people. Bring on the WORST of the pictures (naked skin always gets 'em in an uproar) and PLASTER THEM EVERYWHERE until the decent and good patriots stand up and demand a FULL STOP. Escort the American *MIC rapist out of the room, NOW.

...Just curious....I don't know enough about the history and lease deal the US has going there with the base, but I sure as heck wish that Fidel Castro in his final revolution would take on Bush re. "Human Rights" violations at Gitmo and elsewhere and invoke Cuban law....

Ironic aint' it that Bush announced Thursday his new "plan" re. Cuba due to their "human rights violations" - huh?

In the SC arguments a few weeks ago regarding the treatment of prisoners, et al, the lawyers representing the prisoners noted that GITMO exists in perpetuity via treaty and that although Cuba ostensibly has soverign control, they do not. Cuban officials are not allowed on the base as a practical matter.

IOW, GITMO exists without any legal restrictions apart from our UCMJ.

...when they're on foreign soil? Of course they do. But this is why George II has broken treaties, threatened nations and ignored international law in order that OUR citizen soldiers be exempt.

Their families had thought they were dead. Disgusting.

They tried to bury the news by making it top secret.

...and said that it's 'illegal' to classify information regarding criminal activities. But that's just what the Bush* government tried to do. Somehow, I'm not surprised.

Well, seems like that fact is good source material for a killer thread, eh?

Just as in the downfall of nixon, this coverup could be the last nail that we have been searching for. Let me see that hammer.

...and it took the work and cooperation of BOTH PARTIES to finally bring him down. In this case you have a situation where BOTH PARTIES are trying to coverup their complicity in everything from 'voting' to invade Iraq to giving the Bush* government a blank check and unfettered power to wage war against a noun.

- Congress loves to 'study' things and hold hearings...but what they do with that information will determine if our Constitution is still intact and 'justice' means what they say it means.

Justice takes time. Especially when the crimes are so enormous and the perps have control. It may prove fun to continue to bash and marginalize our friends, the Dems, but really, what good does it do? None, that I can see.

Nixon covered up watergate, that is what took him down. GWB covered up this mess, this is as good a chance we will ever have to take him down. Let's not divide our efforts and beat up on the only people who can fix things. Encouragement and reward is the best course of action.

you wrote: " The buck has to stop at the 'Commander in Chief' of the armed forces and the defense department for their original argument that those 'detained' in the 'war on terror' had no protection as prisoners of war or under the auspices of the Geneva Convention. Prisoners were rounded up like animals and put in cages and told they had no rights. The mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers of suspects were rounded up as well and held hostage until they 'cooperated' with their jailers."

Check out this discussion and the link. This is how we prove it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1556408

...all Americans should be discussing these issues and not allow them to be swept under the rug like so many other Bush* atrocities.

Seriously, the war is illegal. Fine, I pretty much agree. But how would you go about leaving Iraq without leaving Iraq in a bloody massacre of a civil war. Thoughts?

and I share many of the sentiments implied by your contention, I have come to realize that what would follow may well be far less troublesome for not only us but the Iraqi people. The general put in charge of Fallujah has done a remarkable job of placating the people there and restoring peace.

Could it be that the Iraqi people could do a less bloody and superior job at restoring their own country?

You are correct about Fallujah. The problem is, he's a Sunni. And down south we've got the Shia's. The shia's have about a half-dozen clerics, each with his own supporters and militia. Then you throw in the Kurds to the north. Then you throw in the foreigners flocking there to cause trouble.

Hey look, everyone with half a brain knows invading the place was wrong. But we're there, and the real question is how to get out being that we're legally responsible now for a secure Iraq.

It's a real dilemna, and I don't think anyone has a great answer at this point. We certainly can't just leave. My take on it is, at this point, that Kerry will be able to form a real NATO mission in the region. The international community does have a GREAT chance of benefiting from a secure Iraq, unfortunately Bush has made it nearly impossible for anyone to help us. Hopefully Kerry can reverse that.

to put humpty-dumpty back together again at all. Using military force to coerce the Iraqi people into becoming like a suburb of Chicago is not going to work. Our staying against Iraqi resistence (btw, if someone invaded here, I would be every bit as troublesome as the so-called insugents) will ultimately end in logical contortions like we saw in Viet Nam: in order to save it, we had to destroy it.

I had the same position as you two weeks ago. Now, I am far less certain that anything we do will be as good as what the Iraqis might do. It would have to really suck to be any worse.

every time I hear that racist refrain, "If WE leave they'll 'massacre' each other." It's like a rapist claiming that if he pulls out his victim may become a whore.

Thoughts of one being brutalized:

"The number of killings in the south has also risen. The Americans and British are saying that they are 'insurgents' and people who are a part of Al-Sadir's militia, but people from Najaf are claiming that innocent civilians are being killed on a daily basis. Today the troops entered Najaf and there was fighting in the streets. This is going to cause a commotion because Najaf is considered a holy city and is especially valuable to Shi'a all over the world. The current situation in the south makes one wonder who, now, is going to implement a no-fly zone over areas like Falloojeh and Najaf to 'protect' the people this time around?

I sometimes get emails asking me to propose solutions or make suggestions. Fine. Today's lesson: don't rape, don't torture, don't kill and get out while you can- while it still looks like you have a choice... Chaos? Civil war? Bloodshed? We’ll take our chances- just take your Puppets, your tanks, your smart weapons, your dumb politicians, your lies, your empty promises, your rapists, your sadistic torturers and go.

Reprinted from Baghdad Burning:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_
riverbendblog_archive.html#108392335918002921

Your analogy about the rapist is totally on the mark. We have committed a criminal act by invading their country, the only way to repair the crime is to STOP DOING IT!

GET OUT NOW!!!! :mad:

sw

I'm glad someone agrees with me. For a moment, I thought I had evolved into more left than the rest of the board.

:hi:

It's SO APPALLING that so many Americans simply REFUSE TO GET IT. Ehrlich gesagt, I am simply DISTRAUGHT. The assumptions of superiority, paternalism, racism, imperialism and FUNDAMENTAL LACK OF EMPATHY fueling this ATROCITY are becoming too much to bear...

LOL, unless you're talking Rosemont, which is essentially a dictatorship.

it isn't Fallujah.

...but we ARE responsible in many other ways. We must pay to rebuild the Iraq Bush* bombed into rubble. That would include the residential areas, schools, museums, hopitals and utilities.

- We have no obligation to stay in Iraq...just to pay for the rebuilding and reparations to those families Bush* wrongly harmed in his crusade.

their OWN damn country.

They are not children, they are not feeble-minded. They are the educated heirs to the cradle of civilization. Get out, pay them repartions for OUR destruction of their infrastructure, and leave them to take care of themselves.

It's utterly RACIST to assume that they need US to put their own country together. Get the military out NOW -- ALL of it -- and then ASK them what they need by way of non-military assistance.

The Occupation is the problem, NOT the Iraqis themselves.

sw

...for Iraq. If Bush* gets another four years...expect the contiinuation of the 'BUSH* DOCTRINE of aggressive war and occupation.

- As to violence: except for Saddam's sadistic ways...there was little violence in Iraq before we 'shocked and awed' them back a couple centuries. The Bushies removed Saddam...but they had to kill scores of babies to do it...not to mention the killing and disgusting display of Saddam's relatives. It just stank of fascism and it turned off the world in general.

- It seems to me the violence would immediately DECREASE if our troops weren't pointing guns and dropping bombs on the Iraqis. The problem with being occupiers is that the occupied will never accept us being there. Never. It's clear by now that we didn't come as liberators...but to conquer and dominate.

- US troops out. International troops in...with UN and Red Cross supervision. What else can we do at this point when most of the world sees a new Hitler rising in America?

THIS is the ugly inner core of "American exceptionalism", THIS is what lies behind all the cheering of "U.S.A.! U.S.A.!", THIS is the underpinning of our supposed "moral superiority", THIS is what enables and condones our imperialist militarism -- just as surely as it rallied the Germans to Hitler's Reich.

This has ALWAYS been present in this country ever since the first European invasion of the western hemisphere. The "master race" set in motion perhaps the greatest genocide ever acomplished in human history, the systematic displacement and elimination of the indigenous people, resulting, over the next 5 centuries, in the loss of nearly 90% of the original pre-invasion population.

The "master race" mentality brought about the enslavement of millions of Africans. The "master race" mentality is inherent in "Manifest Destiny", it is inherent in every military slaughter of third world peoples in the name of "democracy", in every dehumanization of the "other" as "redskins", "niggers", "monkeys", "gooks", "ragheads" -- it absolutely permeates our culture.

I despair for this country, I really do. So much denial, so much delusion. I know that we have done good in the world, that some of us truly strive to live up the ideals we profress. But our unacknowledged shadow self grows larger and larger and I shudder to think what we are bringing upon ourselves, as we deal death and destruction to so many of our fellow humans...

sw

Just like when Saddam is in power, Iraqis have no rights. Many of there prisoners simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time & have done nothing wrong. Its disgusting. How can the Bush regime talk about "liberation" and the "rule of law" ? At least we won't have to listen to the right blather on about how the "rape rooms" have been closed anymore.

Think I will puke.

...but the Bush* Gang is used to getting their way and have enough control of the media to 'spin' this much like they did the outting of a CIA agent. In mock surprise...the Bushies say how 'horrible it is...then proceed to bury the story until after the election.

- Heard anything about the Iraq intelligence or 9-11 commission lately? BURIED! ...in an avalanche of yet another series of scandals that will be buried next week by something even worse. November will come and go before any of this makes a direct hit on Bush*. Half the country will STILL vote for him and a close election can easily be stolen.

One was an Al-Jazeera journalist.

Another was the 12-year-old sister of suspect who they would beat in order to get him to talk.

Others were just people they rounded up in sweeps, apparently to meet quotas.

- The American people have a short attention span. Just a short while ago there were stories in the (mostly foreign) media about the Bush* forces kidnapping the families of 'suspects' and holding them hostage until they either gave up 'valuable' information or the suspect turned themselves in to the occupation. I wrote at the time that this was against international law/Geneva convention and would only breed resentment and new terrorists.

- But this isn't surprising...coming from the same RWingers who wanted an end to Miranda rights and have decimated the Bill of Rights with the Patriot Act(s). It's clear that a nation that can't respect human/civil rights while they're on foreign soil are capable of doing the same on their own soil.

- In the broader picture we see the Bush* regime breaking all international treaties...including those that put a hold on the nuclear arms race. The US taxpayers are now funding a new round of nuclear weapons and a missile defense system that includes offensive weaponry. Put this together with this government's blatant disrespect for human rights and you have what appears to be a nation headed towards oblivion.