Out of Iraq now

The only reasons I think we are there are to get permanent military bases and cheap oil. Obviously we don't give a crap about human rights, tyranny or rape rooms.

No third option. Piss or get off the pot.

Leave Iraq NOW in chaos, and stop the daily killing of Americans.

or

Leave Iraq LATER in chaos, and watch more Americans die in the process.

I choose NOW.

Leaving Iraq later in chaos would also result in Iraqi deaths.

Time to get the hell out.

Dead soldiers to cover his ass til the election.

Such honor. Such dignitude.

....IF there is an election, the worst is yet to come.

I thought that we had to stick it out to at least clean up the mess we've made.

Now, I don't think that it is possible to do that and the longer we stay, the worse we make the situation for everybody.

Get out now.

It's over.

It's rapidly downhill from here.

Dennis was right all those months ago, and now more and more people are understanding that.

OUT NOW

Kanary

Only us westerners know whats right for them contrary to what bush said brown skinned people cannot govern them selves

Are the only choices "out now" and "stay the course"?

And what do we mean by "out now"?

As the situation deteriorates, "out now" -- as in doing a Dunkirk -- is beginning to look like the most reasonable and pragmatic thing to do.

A few weeks ago, I might have said "out now" means turn the Iraqi government over to somebody -- anybody -- who could conceivably govern the place and leave in a speedy but orderly manner.

Of course, "stay the course" is a foolish option.

The US has no legal or moral right to be in Iraq, so we should leave. Simplest damn thing in the world. The only people trying to introduce false complexity are empire apologists and believers in the "white man's burden." The idea that we should turn over to the UN is simply a more sophisticated version of the "white man's burden," the notion that we are only being "responsible" if we find some other westerners to turn the country over to. The notion of waiting until we find some Iraqis to turn over power to is just flat-out colonialism, assuming the US has a right to appoint a new government there. The notion that there will be a civil war if we "just leave" is sheer empire propaganda not backed up by a shred of evidence. "Civil war" is a phrase no Iraqi has yet uttered. The idea that we should stay to "clean up the mess" is a bit like saying that the rapist is an ideal person to stay and provide counseling to the rape victim afterwards.

Out. Now.

The US has no legal or moral right to be in Iraq, so we should leave.

Agreed.

The only people trying to introduce false complexity are empire apologists and believers in the "white man's burden."

I don't agree with this, but only a fool would deny that some who introduce complexity into the argument are sophists intent on obfuscating; nevertheless, there are some who may be raising these matters out of genuine concern for the welfare of the Iraqi people. Such people may be wrong, but that doesn't make them cynical imperialists or racists.

The notion of waiting until we find some Iraqis to turn over power to is just flat-out colonialism, assuming the US has a right to appoint a new government there.

With this, I have a sharper disagreement. Perhaps you are reading something into my post that you should not. That somebody should be put place to govern Iraq is not necessarily going to be Mr. Bush's first or second choice. It might be somebody like Ayatollah Sistani or Mullah al-Sadr, neither of whom is what the Bushies had in mind when they got into this mess. What they would be able to do is maintain order long enough for US troops to leave -- as soon as possible -- and organize public services.

For the record, I am no fan of an Islamic Republic; if I read your avatar correctly, then it is unlikely that you are, either. However, it may be the best thing available for the Iraqi people at the moment.

The notion that there will be a civil war if we "just leave" is sheer empire propaganda not backed up by a shred of evidence. "Civil war" is a phrase no Iraqi has yet uttered.

Of this I am not convinced. Iraq is one of many nations that exist today that grew out of nineteenth- and twentieth-century colonial boundaries that were drawn for the benefit of the colonial powers and without regard for the people that live within those boundaries. There are ethnic animosities in Iraq that were exacerbated during Saddam's regime. There has been ethnic violence in Iraq in the past year that the occupation authorities were unable to prevent. It would seem to me that the possibility of civil war deserves more weight than you are giving it.

Again, I will grant that this possibility is being used by those who supported the invasion and do not wish to end the occupation for their own purposes. That does not mean that it is not a real possibility.

The idea that we should stay to "clean up the mess" is a bit like saying that the rapist is an ideal person to stay and provide counseling to the rape victim afterwards.

Again, agreed. There is nothing "we" (by which you really mean the Bushies) can do in the long run that won't make this matter worse.

I don't want an Islamic Republic, either, obviously. I think that Iraq (and Israel and the US and everywhere else) should be a secular democracy, but that's for Iraqi secular democrats to fight for, people can't hand it to them from the outside. If all you mean in turns of turning over power is the US surrendering to the al-Sadr forces or whoever, that's fine by me. And, yeah, I agree that I should be more careful about not referring to Bush & Co. as "we."

and acknowledge that even though they're brown people, they can figure a way out of this horror & rebuild without the 'superior' help of the Anglo-Saxons.

I know your intentions are good but don't you think it's time for the rapist to leave the room?

I vote totally out now and let the victim choose her own therapists. She no longer trusts our 'expert advice" especially not when the rapist is still eying her crotch oil.

Of course, I do not believe brown people need an Anglo-Saxon's help to govern themselves. And you know very well that I believe that the invasion was entirely self-serving and that the Bushies themselves didn't believe a word of their own rhetoric about it.

The only question is whether it is possible or preferable to leave in an orderly manner, leaving behind a government that would not be Bush's choice but one that could begin the task of reconstructing Iraq on terms more likely to be to the benefit of the Iraqi people than those imposed by the neoliberal dictatorship that Bush and others call by the Orwellian term "democracy".

The rapist should leave the room, yes, and the victim should choose her own therapist.

In no way should the Bushies or their corporate cronies be allowed to profit from their crimes. The only question is what manner of exit is best for the Iraqis. If an orderly withdrawal of "coalition" forces can be made under the direction of one who would be indisputably be the popular choice of the Iraqi people to see them through the transition from Saddam to this colonial interregnum to whatever comes next, then that is the course that should be taken.

I think we need to get the hell out of Iraq NOW!

US presence harms both the US and Iraq;
NO good can possibly come of it. Out now!

from this point on will be of any benefit to Iraq or the Iraqi people? Or the entire Middle East for that matter. They didn't want us there in the first place, we bombed the shit out of them based on lies, we haven't done a damn thing except force them to live by the rules that WE set. They can't have newspapers or television stations unless we run them, we shoot first and ask questions later (if at all). We have absolutely no credibility with the Iraqi people. So, if we 'stay the course', what do they have to gain? Will they trust us? NOPE. Will they like us? NOPE. Will they continue to dispise us? YEP. Will we allow them to chose their own government? NOPE. And the icing on the cake, the lovely pictures of sexual and physical torment that we put them through. Do they make the Iraqis believe that we were there to better their lives? NOPE.

So, all things considered, why would we stay? This is a lose-lose situation. The war criminals that brought us Mission Accomplished never thought anything through except maybe how they might get their hands on the Iraqi oil fields, and even that bellied up. Please, explain to me how we can make this better? Especially considering the criminal administration that's in control of this fiasco. The Iraqi people have told us they don't want us there. Does that not mean anything?

Oh, and if the excuse of a civil war comes up, all I can say to that is TOO LATE. First we appoint a Sunni to run Falluja, then the Shi'ites fread out. Then we appoint a Shi'ite, and everyone else freaks out. So then we announce that actually no Iraqi is in charge, we still control the place, they just work for us.

NOTHING we try to do from now until hell freezes over will help us.

for this reason: staying now or even increasing troop strength will only result in more violence and more comdemnation. The revelations of cruelty worldwide make the neocon dream impossible. We will be the ultimate victims of this war if it continues as is.

MILITARY OR ECONOMIC.

yES, THE TWO ISSUES ARE RELATED.

And Kerry''s hiding under the bed. Nice way to try and win an election. He won't even say the President is a LIAR.

Sure. :eyes:

about the photos that I think some thoughts are partly clouded.

Bring in the UN to oversee reconstruction. Have a small group of US forces as part of this reconstruction. Allow all humanitarian assistance groups to access the country. The Iraqi's would welcome humanitarian assistance.

Think about it. Even the foreign hostages taken were treated well and released. They were trying to make a point to the world. Help them out of this mess.

The US can assist, with other countries, in sending massive amounts of food and other aid to rebuild the country. Then get out.

The US caused this disaster, and should help clean it up. Not control it. Not dominate it. Help it.

There are many Americans that want to help, and they should be allowed the chance.

If you are simply saying stop the occupation and raids my US military forces on various Iraqi cities, then I agree.

To leave entirely would create a humanitarian disaster. Someone has to help rebuild the infrastructure. As long as it isn't Halliburton, I don't give a shit who helps. Just so someone does, and the US is part of it.

How bout... letting the Iraqis themselves decide?

Once again, we're deciding for them.

How 'bout..... we get the HELL OUT, as they want, then let them decide if the WANT us to help with rebuilding?

Can't we actually just let them have the final say?

Or, is it all about us?

Kanary