It really isn't about Democrats vs Republicans - --

It's about restoring honor and dignity to our nation. Not just to the White House but to our entire nation. Listening to Limbaugh, Hannity, and many of their ditto head followers makes the average American feel unclean. They seem to have no problem with what has been done in our names. Limbaugh compares it to a "frat-house" prank.

They are traitors to our nation by attempting to make it a Dem vs Repub issue. That assures them of partisan support that they would not have it if they had to argue on its merits. Because, on its merits, most Americans, Democrats and Republicans, feel embarrassed and ashamed for what has happened in Iraq. Politics should stop at the water's edge, we have been told, and the Republican spinmeisters should stop trying to make this an issue between Dems and Repubs. America needs a long shower after listening to these shithead propagandists...

(edited for "if")

I agree.

The saddest part to me is that this is one of the bigger flip-flops I've seen from the sheep. The same sheep that say liberals can't make up their minds on things. At first, they say that they value the freedom, safety and happiness of the Iraqi people as much as they value their own. Now, the Iraqis are stinking, filthy arabs that deserve worse than what they've gotten in the infamous pictures.

One minute they deserve to be free and enjoy the same things we do and the next minute they deserve everything that was done to them. That is one humongous "flip-flop" !

:wtf:

and all elected officials in Congress need to made to feel responsible regardless of the right's propagandists. We need to email them and really see how many of them have a conscience. I don't mind telling them I don't think they do.

hegemony. At least that's what it's about for me. Last Dem I voted for was Ted Kennedy several years ago, but I'll vote for Kerry this time just to slow the encroachement of the fascist police state. But as far as restoring honor or achieving real progress is concerned-- I wouldn't count on it.

whatever it takes to make right-wingers feel good about themselves.


Edit: supposed to be in response to #3.

Having a hard time deciphering what you stand for?

I used to be a card-carrying member of the Libertarian Party. I still agree with them on social issues (civil liberties, 2nd Amendment), but my experience as a union guy has turned me from their ultra-free-market economic principles. Instead, I guess I'm what you would call a Libertarian Socialist (someone started a thread on this a while ago) or an anarcho-syndicalist. I believe in minimal (if any) state power. I also believe in regulation of industry, but not government regulation-- I think major industries should be collectively owned and operated by democratic labor unions, organized from the bottom up. I strongly believe in worker self-management of industry (I don't think it's utopian, and several historical examples prove it can work)

I think that economic and community organization are 50 times more important than voting, but I am a registered Democrat and will vote Democrat when I think it makes tactical sense. I guess you could say my political thinking is "outside the box".

bigbill...:)

I think this incident has blackened the image of the United States alot more than what the Repukes were crying about when Bill got his BJ in the White House. If that is a impeachable offence then why is this not? I don't care how many times he claims it I feel in my gut that Dubya knew about the photo's for quite a while.

I have never supported the war in Iraq. I thought it was a mistake before it even started. Having said that, I hate it that events seem to be proving me right on this one.

Still, seeing as our government decided to commit us to the action, I really do wish that Bush and company had been right; that the Iraqi people would have rushed and and given us hugs and we could now live happily ever after. But it didn't work out that way...

Note that I use pronouns like "our", "we", and "us". Yes I am a Democrat, but I'm also an American. No, I don't like Bush. But, I take no pleasure in seeing him fail because he isn't the one that suffers when he fails; everyone else does. I guess that makes me a part of something that used to be called "the loyal opposition" (a concept that doesn't seem too well regarded in these parts). Anyone that is pleased at the way events have turned out in Iraq because it validates their political viewpoint has problems and issues that go far beyond my ability to understand.

As for the news about the abuse of prisoners in Iraq. Does it bring me great joy to see Bush with egg all over his face? No. It just embarrasses me, as an American and as a veteran it makes me ashamed.

Its a big mess now. It needs to be straightened out. And if it can be straightened out I don't care who gets credit for it.

I struggle with this all the time. It gives me no pleasure being right, but being wrong would vindicate the policy, which might even be worse in the long run.

Ultimately principled conservatives will be victims of this regime as surely as any democrats who attempt to thwart this regime's insane and arbitrary policies in favor of the financial interests they represent. It's just a matter of time. These people have no respect for law or due process period. Election 2000, 911, anthrax, Gitmo, Patriot Act, Geneva Convention violations, and the budget process all suggest that we are on an ever increasing slide to totally arbitrary rule. The financial powers that be think they have the last word with this regime, just as the financial interests in Germany who thought they could control Hitler and the Nazis.

According to traditional two party interpretation of events, there are always two sides to a discussion. The notion that there are two sides to election requirements, the Bill of Rights, and the Geneva Conventions, demonstrates that something is critically wrong. It isn't just liberals vs. conservatives. Now we are in the stage where the two sided arguments about torture and stripping people of their human rights at Gitmo has now evolved to justification of a policy which has resulted undeniable torture. The next step is a "two sided" discussion of the rights and wrongs of murder by the state without due process.

But that is where we are headed...and we're not far from there right now.

...to curb the power of this regime to imprison people indefinitely without due process, we are in big trouble. They will give the regime a hole through which they can establish a gulag inside the states.

They need to send a strong signal about human rights, the Bill of Rights, the separation of powers and direct corporate participation in internal government functions whether its Abu Ghraid or the Executive Office. I don't know the term of the Court or if these decisions will not be published until after Nov. While I don't hold out much in the way of expectations, due to the regime's excesses the Court could turn on them. It would be very significant to other social and political leaders if one of the federal branches actually took a stand against this developing fascist state.

Bush has not restored honor to our government but has made America the most hated country in the world. There is no way that America can bring peace to the middle east or Iraq given the perceptions raised by this torture.

Ignoring the UN and violating the Geneva Conventions were just warm ups for the hatred that America is now facing. We need a change in leadership if we are going to have any credibility in the world.