Defending the Accused Abu Ghraib Soldiers

DISCLAIMER: This thread contains a possibly controversial opinion. If you have no intention but to act rude or throw insults at me for having an opinion, do not bother with this thread. I want this conversation to be calm and polite.

Now,

The soldiers who have been accused of this abuse make a good argument for their innocense. They have written back saying that their orders were to keep the Iraqi prisoners awake all night. Keep them from going to sleep. They were also ordered to take off their clothes and keep them in the nude. That was what they were ordered to do. "Soften them up" so interrogations afterwards will be easier. "Make it hell" for them.

So what did they do?

They made up an activity to keep themselves busy. They organized them for a series of pictures. Stacked them on top of each other. Leashed them and guided them around the place. Beat them. Put a couple wires on them and tell them that if they move, they'll be electrocuted.

To me, this sounds like effective work (other than posting the pictures online). And it makes sense that doing these things would ease somebody up to reveal information that could protect the lives of their fellow soldiers.

"Clearly obvious to be wrong"? No way. It can be debatable if it's wrong or not - but clearly, unequivocably wrong?

Especially hilarious in a very sick way is that these soldiers claim they knew little or nothing about the Geneva Convention, that it had never been mentioned in any class they've attended in the military or eslewhere. So in addition to them seeming innocent to me, a very firm finger is being pointed to the military itself for poorly training its wartime troops.

Now, do the above activities qualify for torture? Yes. Some of it is physical torture, some of it is psychological torture. But it's freaking torture (I'm looking at you, Rumsfeld). But you know what, I think it's actually justifiable, if not easily so. It's at least understandable. And it's not "clearly obvious to be wrong."

SERIOUSLY?

I am speechless.

I am not asking that at all, Skittles.

Here is what I said on that issue specifically in my post:

Now, do the above activities qualify for torture? Yes. Some of it is physical torture, some of it is psychological torture. But it's freaking torture (I'm looking at you, Rumsfeld).

I can't make it much clearer, Skittles.

there is no defense for these soldiers' actions: NONE. The blame may be spread around but they are ALL CLEARLY, CLEARLY WRONG.

There is no justification for their behavior. I could not act that way, could you?

That almost sounds like I shouldn't call myself an American for opposing the war.

Thank you for being polite, though.

You should be asked to remove your avatar for having an idiotic opinion that Dean would never support. But then you knew that didn't you?
Isn't there somewhere else you could go to play?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

But dude, you are so not gonna find many others who will control the bile rising up their throats at reading your opinion. They will fairly spew it on their monitors while typing furiously to give an opposing view to your opinion. I had to clean my screen twice before I decided the heartburn wasn't worth it.

Thanks for the warning. :)

What does it say about ourselves, though, if we can't even handle these conversations politely?

much like you mistake the wrongness of torture...

Although I think saying "I will not participate" is, technically, participating.

of the photos and video tapes and then try and sell the same story.

And yes, round one shows shows UNJUSTIFIABLE acts.

You wanna know how to distinguish that? (cause you seem to have a bit of a problem with that)

Imagine the men in those photos to be American soldiers caught by Iraqi forces.

American soldiers being stood on boxes with electrodes attached to them.

American soldiers naked on a floor with a leash around their necks.

American soldiers with the word "rapeist" scrawled on their bodies.

And THEN try to convince me those acts were JUSTIFIABLE or UNDERSTANDABLE.

What if these POWs contain information that could help save American lives?

Don't assume that, because I endorse torture, I do not value life.

WHAT IF NONE OF THEM DO????? OMG "Don't assume that, because I endorse torture, I do not value life." Do you not understand that torture more often than not results in BAD INFORMATION? People will say ANYTHING to make the torture stop.

regurgitating RW talking points that fail to talk into account what most military guys will tell you -- torture is NOT an effective way to gather information.

Next justification please.

Bad information.

There are plenty of historical precidents for my contention, but I'll take one that hits home, because it happened to my own relatives.

In 1692, some girls in Salem, MA, accused certain people in the community of being witches. The accused were questioned, and torture techniques were used-starvation, isolation, and physical abuse. Many, many more people were named as witches. Interstingly enough, those who named the people the preachers wanted named were let go. Those who insisted on their innocence were imprisoned, hanged, or pressed to death with stones. My nine-great grandmother, Anne Foster, was one of those people. She refused to give up her daughter as a witch, and died in the Salem jail.

in general sweeps. Your average Iraqi civilian.
So what was your question again?

Should they be tortured? I suppose you would support their rape and murder?

his opinion is worse than the people who claim it's not torture.

:puke:

IGNORE IS MY FRIEND.

You're kidding, right??

It's at least understandable

What, exactly is "understandable" about humiliating human beings??

. But you know what, I think it's actually justifiable, if not easily so

Regardless of "Orders to keep them awake", this kind of treatment is NEVER "justifiable".

If my neighbor to the south kills my dog, is it justifiable for me to submit the shoplifter who lives to the north, to torture, so I can find out who killed my dog??

I used the term shoplifter to emphasize the fact that some of the prisoners being held are there for looting and nothing more.

Wouldn't you like to know what the abused prisoners are being held for? I would.

Aren't these the people we are supposed to LIBERATE?

I posted the Tagabue report over on LBN. Read the part about OGA's bringing prisoners in without anyone knowing who they are and what they are charged with.

I thought the adults were supposed to be in charge.
I guess not.

What, exactly is "understandable" about humiliating human beings??

Well let's face it, if we're trying to save lives here, and performing activities that do not threaten the lives of POWs might help us do that, couldn't it at least seem understandable?

(Keep in mind I do not believe that raping, killing, or severely beating POWs is acceptable, and I do know some of that has been going on.)

I used the term shoplifter to emphasize the fact that some of the prisoners being held are there for looting and nothing more.

That's definately disturbing. I do not think we should perform interrogation procedures on anybody who doesn't have information we need.

Wouldn't you like to know what the abused prisoners are being held for? I would.

I certainly would, and you have a point.

Aren't these the people we are supposed to LIBERATE?

Yes, and if their lives are in danger because of what some of these POWs' planned to do to them, it makes sense that we get to the other people like them by almost any means necessary.

I posted the Tagabue report over on LBN. Read the part about OGA's bringing prisoners in without anyone knowing who they are and what they are charged with.

Yeah, that's messed up. It's not hard to inform others of what certain POWs are guilty of.

No it couldn't.

Look, we don't know why ANY of the prisoners are there. Based on what's coming out, how do we know if they are guilty of ANYTHING?

This whole mess is out of control. We are now the most hated country on earth, and it seems to me that it is deserved.

We invaded a country based on lies, now we are torturing it's citizens.
But don't worry, democracy is right around the corner.(Sarcasm)

Did anyone ever think that they don't want a democracy?

This kind of shit reminds me of the Christian Crusades. Who are we to FORCE our way of life on ANYONE?

Torture, mental or physical, is NEVER an option. What's to stop other countries from following our lead?

Aren't we the ones who are supposed to be setting the example??

Torture, embarrassment, humiliation, destruction, disrespect, narcissism, belligerence, arrogance, great examples huh?!

Following orders is not an excuse. If my commanding officer had ever told me to treat another human the way these guards have, I would have been thrown in the brig immediately because I would tell my CO where he could stick his torture. But then, that's just me.

porr iraqi people must be thinking this by now. Spiegel had a bit (sorry couldnt find the link this morning) last week about some poor guy tortured by saddam in abu ghraib and then again by americans in the same building. Think that chap feels liberated?

I'm sorry, but I just do not see a case at all for their innocense. Yes they may have made statemets to the efect that this was what they were ordered to to do however, what would you expect them to do in a case like this? To me the fact that they took photos of the actions and passed them around for others to see tells me that they were not only willingly doing this but proud of it in a sick sort of way.

We don't know for a fact if those soldiers all WANTED those pictures to be passed around or put on a pornography website. I imagine some of them may (and I could very easily be wrong) just wanted to take pictures just so they could have some kind of activity to keep the POWs awake. Maybe some of them didn't even want the pictures developed. That's a big "maybe."

I do not support the passing around of pictures. I don't think those pictures should ever have been developed unless absolutely necessary.

judging by some of the threads even here on DU i would say OBVIOUSLY it was ABSOLOUTELY NECESSARY.

peace

...I agree with you that it wasn't necessary to develop those pictures.

Well, maybe it was, but it wasn't necessary to spread them around other soldiers and people who have nothing to do with this mess.

are we there yet?

peace

sure it hurts the US but it was the only way anything changed (freedom of the press yknow?) because rummy and bush kept it under wraps. You would prefer they got away with that?

hello...

i like how you end by stating a very strong observation but provide NO reason why you feel it is 'actually justifiable' which makes me wonder how you figure that?

were they planning on setting of nukes or fighting the invaders?

then i can't WAIT to here how you JUSTIFY the civilians in the bunch not to mention the CHILDREN :puke:

do tell...

peace

r u talk'n to me ;->

peace

to the wrong damn people.. Sorry...

Civilians don't have information that could possibly save American lives. Neither do children.

peace

he was just following orders. Hannah Arendt addressed this issue in "Eichmann in Jerusalem: On the Banality of Evil". Perhaps you should give it a read.

Code of Conduct

they had kept the prisoners awake, as ordered (according to your information), and kept them naked, as ordered (again according to your information), and done nothing else, we very probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

The problem is that they went way beyond any orders they were given. It is laughable to think that these people didn't realize that humiliation and rape weren't wrong.

Personally, I think they were given specific ideas on what to do before they even went overseas. I'm basing this on a very unscientific sample of one Guardsman/MP who used to work with my husband. He has not be deployed overseas as of yet, but while at the shop, he'd tell his fellow workers his 'plans' for those 'heathen Muslims who worship that idol'. He went into specifics, and what he planned to do was offensive. Not physically painful, but very offensive to Muslims. Since his knowledge of Islam was obviously limited (Allah is Arabic for God, and idolitry is forbidden in Islam), my take on this was that someone somewhere put the notions as to what to do into his head. I asked my husband if he'd asked the fellow where he'd gotten those ideas, but he hadn't. We keep a very low profile and don't use our Muslim names, literally in fear of our lives. I may be paranoid, but personally I feel that at least some of the enlisted people who did these terrible things may very well have done it out of hate of Islam that they picked up somewhere in the US.

"The problem is that they went beyond any orders they were given."
"I think they were given...."

National Guard Units, whose members consist of enlisted personnel that hold regular jobs at MacDonald's, WalMart, clerical, etc., who attend monthly...weekend meetings and than an annual 2-week field training sessions. Many of these Guard Enlisted personnel have claimed that they had not been trained with The Geneva Convention Rules nor in prison guard duty. One member was identified as holding a civilian position as a prison guard.....that does not make all other Guard members qualified.

Who gave the orders? One has been identified as being a full Colonel with the Regular Army, assigned to this prison. This Colonel, is an Intelligence Officer who comes from the U.S. Army Intelligence Command and is fully trained on the Geneva Convention and Rules of Conduct in interrogation. I would also venture that this very same Colonel has conducted classes at the Intelligence School. Who authorized the civilian contractor's/mercenaries (uncontrolled by Congress), the power to give orders to our Enlisted???

I am not excusing the young enlisted personnel for their actions. They were as unprepared for this war as were The Nation, The Pentagon, this Administration, Haliburton, Kellogg, Brown, & Root.....the ones that sent them there. How many of these kids listened to Rush Limbaugh, Anne Coulter, O'Reilly, Jerry Falwell and the hate they spewed via the media ...24-7. Throw them into a bloody war with a fear they have never known, an unknown culture, and the words heard from the wacko's calling for the total destruction of these people embedded in their brains, etc.

Let us not just attack these kids and declare the mess has been cleaned-up. The Enlisted maybe gone but those that were responsible for their training, and gave the orders will still be there, yet to destroy further peace and lives of the upcoming recruits.

rounding up American Soldiers and torturing them in the same fashion? After all they are trying to save Iraqi Soldier's lives.

So who has the strongest argument?

They are required to obey all LAWFUL orders. They are also equally bound to disobey UNLAWFUL orders. Now the army may not be the brightest bunch (sorry couldn't resist. Semper Fi!) but they know full well that once someone is disarmed and subdued they are no longer combatants and cannot be killed and must be afforded rights. When would this be justified? If there was a prison uprising and for some unknown and unlikely reason the commander of the prison thought that humilation would subdue the rioting prisoners (rather than is more likely further provoke them)

Under any circumstances a soldier doing this on his or her own initiative would be a major violation as every soldier knows. And under almost every conceivable scenario it would be a major violation to obey that type of order and every soldier would know this.

As to holding the commanders accountable - absolutely and especially rumsfeld since he knew about this and kept it under wraps for months rather than trying to stop it. Since he told bush...cant we have them both fired?

No, it's completely unjustifiable...

Torture is ALWAYS immoral, and from a purely practical perspective it's rather inneffective.

After being "softened up" like that, what are you likely to say? The truth, which might anger your questioner, or what your questioner seems to want to hear, hopefully easing your punishment?

And how do we know that these people know anything at all useful to the US forces? They have never been tried for anything, let alone convicted. They could have simply been picked up off the street by a soldier eager to earn rewards for his "service"...

Seriously, if you think that the dark side of humanity should be encouraged, or is justifiable, then join the dark side, be a Repuke, not a Democrat.

to display the inhumaness of some people...

enjoy your crucifixion.

maybe he understands how ATROCIOUS and indefensible his opinion is.

i don't necessarily agree with all or none of Direckshun's post, but why is it necessary to answer it with insults and blanket denunciations which seem intended simply to shut him up?

I don't know, i'm just not really afraid of reading ANY opinion. words don't scare me; the more the better. if i don't like it, i don't participate in the discussion.

i've lurked here long before i began posting. some members seem eager to silence controversial opinions.

i don't get that. smacks of republican tactics to me.

Which his post displays, for if torture is in any means justifiable for Americans to commit, then the reverse is true as well. And 150 years of the Geneva Convention is thrown out the window.

whichever way you feel? That's all I'm promoting here.

but denunciations of the motive and moral character of posters with whom you disagree just seems like a cop out .

between opinion and excerable and complicit acceptance that there are conditions in which torture is acceptable. Anyone who doesnt rise up and condemn this poster's illogic is simply wrong.

you are saying, ardee, but the argument that a rhetorical opponent is "simply wrong" sounds sort of like Mary Matalin when she's run out of bullshit white house talking points in an argument with james carville.

reminds me of a frustrated right winger attempting to end an argument he or she is losing by saying "why do you hate america?"

it seems meant to silence the other with dismissive condemnation, implying anything else they may have to say is simply irrelevant.

speaking for myself as someone listening to or reading through a debate, this technique cuts no ice with me.

what do you think?

Why are the mods so good to us? Thanks mods.

and there will be a tombstone...

.....but i may infer it

:)

Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), all soldiers are obligated to refuse to follow illegal orders.

Ergo, these people are guilty and are deserving a minimum of ten years in a military prison. Each and every one of them.

You are attempting to use the Nuremburg Defense. That defense did not work for the Nazis in 1945 and cannot work for the Fascists in 2004.

are morans (sic) who defend their actions.

Sick just sick.

You should hope you never get what you wish on others.

Many people in Iraq were rounded up in street sweeps and
have nothing to do with anything except being at the wrong place
at the wrong time.

Also one little detail it is their country and they have the
right to resist occupation.

On the other hand we launched a war of aggression that in itself
is the supreme war crime that all others spring from.

It is clearly obvious the your opinion lacks basic humanity.

I think it is very wrong to put people through this kind of anguish, but I realize that human nature is a very strong determination. "Lord of the Flies" mentality is alive and well and I think that many people who claim they would never do such a thing either have never been tested in a "group think" way or are lying.

Is it a good defense, hell no, but it's tragically humorous to think that only republicans, conservatives, or people you don't like have ever fallen victim to this kind of thing.

I don't think these people are innocent from what I've seen and they should get charged as such, but I think the amount of "moralizing" we are doing here is a bit ridiculous.

Charge them with the crime and move on.

because you speak to the very nature of our species. Are we evolving or are we still living in caves. You say that many would do as these soldiers and "contractors" did and you are probably correct sadly.

But we need to definitely NOT move on, instead we need to condemn and do so loudly!

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.guard09may09,0,2180279.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

WIESBADEN, Germany - The two military intelligence soldiers, assigned interrogation duties at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, were young, relatively new to the Army and had only one day of training on how to pry information from high-value prisoners.

But almost immediately on their arrival in Iraq, say the two members of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, they recognized that what was happening around them was wrong, morally and legally.

They said in interviews Friday and yesterday that the abuses were not caused by a handful of rogue soldiers poorly supervised and lacking morals but resulted from failures that went beyond the low-ranking military police charged with abuse.

The beatings, the two soldiers said, were meted out with the full knowledge of intelligence interrogators, who let military police know which prisoners were cooperating with them and which were not.

----cut----
Around November, with casualties among U.S. troops rising, Saddam Hussein still in hiding and solid intelligence becoming more urgent, Pappas issued an order that broadened acceptable interrogation methods.

"I think he was referring to any techniques on the A and B lists," the soldier said. "But there was kind of the third list, the unofficial list. Guys called that the 'made-up list.'"

...

'Wild, wild west'

The made-up list spawned a couple of other terms, the soldiers said: "going cowboy" and "wild, wild west."

"I don't know where they got this from, but the MPs would say it all the time," one of the soldiers said. "MI would drop off a guy who wasn't talking, and the MP would say, 'So looks like I'll be going cowboy on him' or 'Looks like he needs some wild, wild west.'"

The terms meant beatings, they said, and the military intelligence interrogators and private contractors did nothing to discourage them.

to be tombstoned with a picture in the DU gallery...

by one minute.:spank:

when they post something way off like this to see if they are still around. especially if they don't respond for awhile.

this morning, then I tried to find the thread again to see if he was gone and couldn't, and then couldn't quite remember his exact name, so I had to use the search function to look up another thread where I had tangled with him and then use that information to find this thread. After that, I spent awhile figuring out how to put in the tombstone jpg.

I worked pretty hard on this.x(

it's been nice knowing you.

would you say RAPE is justifiable in any other case.These RAPISTS need to be punished.