NEW TORTURE PIC

On CNN now, if you can stomach Wolfie,

edit: with Seymour Hersh

Now our troops have a new fear as a result. Plus its something money cannot buy for the Al Qaida Recruitment people, free plug to come join effort to kill the American Torturors.

Bush is trying his best to get the Holy War to the highest level ever seen. Do they want this? Kill off 1.5 Billion People? Just for the oil?

"But I was only followin' orders...An' it SEEMED funny at th' time, watchin' them Sand N*****s freak-out when we brought the dawgs in..."

Yesterday, I was inclined to believe they are scapegoating the enlisted folks to protect the higher-ups. Now I ain't so sure. I'm beginning to believe these guys wouldn't know an "illegal order" if you smacked them in the balls with one....

I've had enough "Dog v. Cyclist" incidents to understand how it feels having dogs snarling at you.
Not Fun.

with their dogs frightening the cowering, naked man.

I'm just so proud. :puke:

get naked, put your hands on your neck and visualize 2 trained Shepherds snarling at your genitals. It is beyond fear- it's terror

attacked by one of the dogs.

This is so horrendous! What have they done to our country?? Holy Shit.

Shades of the Gestapo...using German Shepherds to interrogate people.

I'm sick, absolutely sick to my stomach.

When do we say enough?

on Late Edition.

If any of us were in that guy's position, what would you do?

Tell them what they wanted to know? What do they want to know?

Have a total break down and end up like a gibbering idiot? (what then, would those macho guards let loose those two dogs onto him? x( )

This sort of maliciousness doesn't get people to talk. It destroys them mentally and enhances their aggression in the process. Looks like the US just created another terrorist, way to go George! x(

This is akin to what the Nazis did in WW II. The only difference is there are no death camps. And may there be none of those because if there are any, all hell is going to break loose and I'm surprised it hasn't already...

Death Camps? Just because there are no pictures does not mean they don't exist.

The absence of photos (as we are discovering) does not mean certain things are not taking place.

I just cried when I saw this picture and thought about the questions you posed...

I can't stomach what they are doing to our world...Doing the same back to all the perpetrators would be too good for them...

We are Nazi Germany all over.....

So what do we, the people who are opposed to this, people who are truly peace-loving, freedom loving, believers in truth and justice, love and kindness, REAL Democracy and our Constitution do?

I write letters to the newspapers and elected reps weekly, lately daily. (If any of you aren't doing that you and everyone you know should), I give what I can afford to give to the groups like Moveon.org (even hosted a Bake back the White House sale) and to the Kerry campaign and been helping register voters.

But what else can we do? General Strikes and Demonstrations across America and throughout our community and world?

There is strength in #'s....look at the protests in Madrid....I was at the March for Women's lives and it was powerful (even though the Media largely ignored it)

I think if there are worldwide strikes and protests and marches on Washington DC, it can't be ignored - especially when the remainder of pix emerge publicly...

Dumbed down populace....check

War of Aggression....check

State controlled media.....check

Prisoner torture with German sheperds.....check

can frankly kiss my ass. If this picture doesn't show it in spades, I don't know what does.

http://cronus.com/fascism

We report, you decide.

You know the chickenshit bullies and torturers!

pResident be tried?

...its authority....

We shot ourselves in both feet.

http://www.cafeshops.com/indigobusiness

but i believe bushinc and the neocon/freepers etc HATE AMERICA! There are too many blacks, Latinos and poor.....who are democratic voters and who already constitute powerful anti gop bloc......
Severely damaging the country's economy, good name and future gives the busheviks 'wiggle room' they think.....

out at? Surely they must have a place already to go..put nothing past them...they have everything preplanned and don't give a care about the PEOPLE. Didn't MaBarker do a great job!

and in G3 all of this is specifically forbidden

noticed your post the other day
:hi:

....thanks Seems Like a Dream....After I have had my Mom's Day Dinner and the kid's are asleep, I'll tell you and other DU'ers my story of Pachamama and the foretelling stories and dreams shared with me by an Achuar Shaman and Huaruani indians down in Peru and Equador in Sept of 1997....

...

the process of photos leaking is just that, a process. There is more to come and the curve of abuse is ramping up.

For Moslems, the dog is second to the pig as an unclean animal. Very rarely are dogs kept as pets in the Moslem world and those which are working animals for hunting and herding. It is also an insult not just a technique to instill fear.

at least part of Bin Laden's opposition to the western world is the amplification of sex and materiality. All this scandal does is confirm what he said. It's going to do nothing but make more muslims want to join his efforts!

and we hung ourselves.

http://www.cafeshops.com/indigobusiness

buy an IMPEACH BUSH cap, t-shirt, thong, lunchbox, etc.....

Do we have any evidence of forced bestiality yet?

But other than that, it looks like they were abused in just about every depraved way possible.

IT'S TORTURE

Sen. Lehy said it too very clear this morning.
I said that from the beginning and I'm very sensitive about that (I'm German born 1951!!!) My parents taught me and my brother a lot............!!

and that they were going quiz "someone" about it!!!!!!

No telling what all they did wth those dogs.

...and Lebkuchens are my favorite memory of Christmas when I lived in Germany as a child ( My parents are German and Danish)....

If you peel back the layers and THIS is the nature of the culture...HOW can ANYONE support it?

IMPEACH BUSH...he lied and innocents died.



http://www.cafeshops.com/indigobusiness

Buy an IMPEACH BUSH tee shirt, cap or something. Here or elsewhere...but SPREAD THE WORD!

A not to distant relative of Otto Reich.

The people in this photo are not the same ones that are currently charged. Certainly indicative of a wider problem.

The prisoner in this picture was apparently bitten by one of the dogs in the picture, according to Hersch.

Not the random malfeasance of some redneck PFC's. This story is really just beginning to break.

I ask myself why these guys take pictures of their acts (it isn't a tradition in any army !) and how these pictures arrive into the media hands. When does the opinion manipulation begin ?

http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2

<snip>
The photographing of prisoners, both in Afghanistan and in Iraq, seems to have been not random but, rather, part of the dehumanizing interrogation process. The Times published an interview last week with Hayder Sabbar Abd, who claimed, convincingly, to be one of the mistreated Iraqi prisoners in the Abu Ghraib photographs. Abd told Ian Fisher, theTimes reporter, that his ordeal had been recorded, almost constantly, by cameras, which added to his humiliation. He remembered how the camera flashed repeatedly as soldiers told to him to masturbate and beat him when he refused.
<snip>

except if perfect idiots command these torturers, the pictures were strictly under control !?

Answer to your Question: The Nazi Army Did

Glad that we have the french resistance fighting with the Democratic Underground...Vive la France...

These sick, sadistic people probably masturbate to the pictures...the Nazis took pictures proudly too...

I have friends not believing it's happening.

Just watch.

They'll make Photoshopped pics, and float them as real, just to discredit the media later.

Stay tuned....

...anyone publishing pics not on the Pentagon list should be hammered to the fullest extent of the law. Any Freeper willing to risk that is welcome to try, IMHO.

I just can't put into words just how I feel.

My question for America is "Do you feel like flying your flag now?, Do you still say you are proud to be an American now?"

Even if it wasn't actually "us" that committed this abuse and torture, it was done by those representing us. And, those representing us that permitted this. And, those representing us that are not doing all possible to make sure this never happens again.

At this time I can't say I am proud to be an American, even though I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else, proud isn't a word I can use. I will wait to see come November if bushie is kicked out of the White House, and Kerry is elected President. Only then will I think this country has a chance to regain it's pride.

they were going to try and spin this. Talking points are
1. Isolated incidents, a few bad apples.
2. Investigations underway, a system is now in place to
deal with these transgressions, move along, nothing to see.
3. We don't want any lectures from the Arab world about
human rights.
4. Saddam's people got medals for doing what we did, our
soldiers will be punished.
5. We have seen enough pictures. Please go away Sy Hersh we don't need to see anymore pictures as we have now have a system in place
to deal with these abuses.
Rinse and repeat.
Denial Denial Denial.

unsuspecting sheep who just want a good life but cannot figure out who to follow.

I feel so sick too....I am so ashamed of what this administration has done to our country and its actions in the world family.

I always was so proud of our flag...flew it proudly...pledged allegiance to it and the constitution for which it stood...On Sept. 12th, 2001, it was flying proudly in front of my house daily.

That was then....For over a year now, starting with the illegal invasion of a sovereign country by the United States, I took that flag down...I have for the last year felt sick every time on the news when the names and faces of the young soldiers dieing in Iraq and the alternative news sources that tell me about the Iraqi civilians dieing. This war was entered into on lies and continues to be fought on lies - with our tax money and our childrens lives.

Now, with the news and info about the torture and abuse of prisoners and civilians in Iraq, I have a new flag to fly and represent me until my country comes back. I did something I never thought I would do - I "wrote" on the US Flag....Right now, as my statement of how I feel about this administration and the war, I have made a "symbolic" amendment on to the flag - it is the only way I can look at it right now without shame or feeling represented by it:

Right now, in front of my house fly two flags - in the flag pole mount is a rainbow flag from Italy with the words "PACE" on it - the italian word for PEACE - My father in law brought it back from a recent trip to Rome...Meanwhile the American flag is hanging downward with the words boldly in black written on it across the stripes "PEACE - NOT WAR" and a Peace sign.

This week I'm going to get one other flag to represent how I feel - The Amnesty International Black flag with their symbol against torture of people. I am going to fly these as long as these fascists have taken over my country and spit on our constitution and for what it stands as well as international law.

Thanks to these bastards, Al-Qaeda has gotten the best recruiting publicity ever. As I have said before, you are not going to have hundreds of potential terrorists. You are going to have millions because of this crap. Thanks, you assholes!

John

McCain did his best to bring this up at the hearings/

=============

The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.
The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

<snip>

He said British and US military intelligence soldiers were trained in these techniques, which were taught at the joint services interrogation centre in Ashford, Kent, now transferred to the former US base at Chicksands.

<snip>

Using sexual jibes and degradation, along with stripping naked, is one of the methods taught on both sides of the Atlantic under the slogan "prolong the shock of capture", he said.

<snip>
"Most people just laugh that off during mock training exercises, but the whole experience is horrible. Two of my colleagues couldn't cope with the training at the time. One walked out saying 'I've had enough', and the other had a breakdown. It's exceedingly disturbing," said the former Special Boat Squadron officer, who asked that his identity be withheld for security reasons.

<snip>

The British former officer said the dissemination of R2I techniques inside Iraq was all the more dangerous because of the general mood among American troops.

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html

The following is a discussion sequence on another list server.

From: Easy <Easy@waterplanet.ws>
Date: Sun May 9, 2004 12:19 pm
Subject: What gives the Iraq torture photos so much power?

What gives the Iraq torture photos so much power?

How is it that photos make so much more difference than all the reports
that have spelled out the torture is much worse, systemic - not isolated
individuals, than the photos that have come out so far?

Can people understand - listen more deeply - to photos than the written
word? or talking heads?

Do photos allow more people to set aside their stereotypes, prejudices,
bigotry?

In a message dated 5/9/2004 1:38:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, spokanelaw@yahoo.com writes:

That question tells us a lot about ourselves. Our group represents the minority of people who are very comfortable with the written word. I believe psychologists would tell us that most people are visual and oral learners who get the majority of their information by images and speech e.g. television. Furthermore, these pictures are exceedingly "shocking" because they offend a number of our cultural taboos. They prortray - women at war - women in dominant roles - males sexual subordination to women. It would be interesting to know how men and women see these pictures differently.

From: eblacas@aol.com
Subject: Re: What gives the Iraq torture photos so much power?

Believe it or not, there is a strand of social science known as "visual psychology." Easy has some interesting questions for the experts, would be a good news story too as well as research project.

Visuals also do not allow us the psychological safety mechanism of not visualizing the grotesque details when (and if) we read about them. And as Frank pointed out, most people do not read what folks like us might be reading in the first place.

Mass communication research has unfortunately not dealt very well with these types of questions in its examination of the role of visual media in society and culture. Some have theorized that visuals allow for a type of "empathy" that printed matter cannot (perhaps because of those safety mechanisms, perhaps for other reasons) and in that sense and to some degree, television (for example) has worked to bring humanity closer together.

Some others have suggested, based upon research, that the two sides of our brains process messages along "a central route" and "a peripheral route," the former of which is more logical, factual, and ostensibly rational, the latter of which is more "affective" or emotional. (Hence, the more effective message combines the two for maximum utility.)

Printed matter is "read" (processing of code -- letters -- into meaning before a picture in the mind can be visualized) along the central route while visual matter is read along the peripheral route and understood much quicker, and not just in an emotional sense. Visual code is easier for the brain to make sense of (we were born readily-equiped for it), while written code again takes longer (we were not born necessarily for it, humans invented writing and the coding and decoding must be learned). We have the ability to succesfully process written code along central route and then transfer and consider the meaning along the peripheral route of course and we often do, but perhaps some impact is lost upon the way.

That's a long boring way to say a picture is worth a thousand words, eh? I tend to believe that all the unnamed scientists referenced above are on to something. It makes sense that affective processing would be more likely to induce empathy.

I think a lack of feminist input likely led to the unfortunate idea of emotions being peripheral as well as overlooking the obvious point that being rational requires the integration of logic and emotion. I would have called that route the express route.

Paula.