No More Pics Or Video PLEASE

The Great American Leaders have admitted that there are gruesome and grotesque video and pictures.
Editors have decided on showing pictures that document torture and foreshadow possibly worse events having taken place.

I do not think the world or Iraqis need any further evidence that there is something very very wrong.

Showing the pictures and video will only further entrench the hatred.
If you want the pictures released to discredit Bushco or the freepers, I think you should consider the feelings of the victims.
They might draw the conclusion that the U.S. is so morally bankrupt that they get perverse pleasure looking at pictures and video of such horros.
Or want to purposely humiliate Muslims further.

Please no more pictures.

This needs to be entirely out in the open. Any withholding will support the enemy's assertions that the US is as bad or worse than Saddam.

Now that was pretty lame! We and the Iraqi people have a right to know all of the facts concerning the abuse of Iraqi prisoners and that would of course include all documents, including photos and videos.

What do you think the Bush government would do with photos of any American POW's that were abused? They'd be broadcast all over the mass media in the world and be used to justify their military adventures.

in a blindfold and earplugs

they're coming out. period.

My eyes are wide open
The world’s eyes are wide open
The white house has admitted abuse
Horrendous pictures have been released to prove the Administrations claims that abuse has occurred

How does further release of graphic images help this situatiuon?

I think that all of you want the pictures released to further your political agenda which while noble is still selfishly motivated.

The American people SHOULN'T need and more evidence proving that Bushco was corrupt and criminal.

The world certainly doesn't.

I want to see the medical exam pictures of the little white girl Kobe raped so I can see how bad a guy Kobe really is. Cover her face though.
I don't think she would mind.

edited for spelling

ha ha. get it?

so people will no longer get perverse pleasure from pictures and video of concentration camps and gas chambers

sound good to you? How on earth would keeping those images public help with the healing process, right? If they had destroyed all of that holocaust footage back then, we would've been over it by now :eyes:

After all, pictures from Auschwitz and Tuol Sleng do nothing but bum me out. Crematoriums? Block 11? I'm reaching for the anti-depressants.

And remember this little gem from the Khmer Rouge: "When receiving beatings or electrification you must not cry at all." Hell, forget the meds and pass me the absinthe.

not to 'further' MY political agenda

but to EXPOSE the bushies political agenda.

this happened because these war pigs tried to maximize personal profit off this "war" by privatization...

p.s. these pictures are half as horrible as the photos of Iraqi CHILDREN killed and mutilated by 'shock and awe'

"the white house has admitted abuse.......horendous pictures have been released to prove the admin.'s claims that abuse has occurred"

it was torture not abuse, like rumsfeld said there is a legal difference. and the admin. did not release the photos to prove their claim, they were/are trying to bury the story/relevance of the torture.

"you want the pictures released to further your political agenda"

you are correct, my political agenda includes truth, transparency, and adherence to the geneva convention

to relate the kobe rape trial to war and violations of international law is so ridicules. i can only say, your druge talking points suck. you can repeat those "kneepad" parasites verbatim, it will get you no closer to democracy.

"ABUSE" IS WHAT YOU CALL IT? Nice, to be a spokesman for the administration!!
Better catch up on ;your Geneva Convention, because it was TORTURE; the Red Cross agrees.

Sorry about that, Nice try.Peddle your papers in another forum.

WE NEED TO GET THE WORST AND EVERYTHING OUT THERE IN THE OPEN. Camp(prison) Bucca is also involved.

Holy crap!

That's what these pictures will argue.

I suspect that's what you're really afraid of.

That's BULL. The only thing the White House admitted is that "a few bad loose-cannon apples were out of control & bad things happened and that those "digital cameras are fucking everything up!(TM)". The White House has not admitted responsibility.

Plenty of other sites where they don't plaster the pictures all over the place, where instead you can gaze your sensitive eyes on heroes like Hamill who are so proud to be an American & so proud to stand by Bush.

Well Standup, until the day America yanks its head out of its ass, sees what it has done and ADMITS to the horror of it, taking full responsibility which requires a determination to do it NEVER AGAIN, I'll be plastering these photos on every forum, in every donut shop, and in every mall out there.

Better buy blindfolds because they're not going away.


WOW! Lol! The White House is in full panic mode. Do you realize how transparent you are? Nothing like trying to bury the evidence is there?

Perhaps what you all smell is blood and are looking to go in for the kill.
Great
What I'm suggesting is that the world is watching how you go in for the kill.
Remember that tolerance and compassion are supposed traits of the left.

We need to realize that we need to treat even bush-co the way we would treat any other peoples of the world
We should treat them the way we want the terrarist treated.
If the world sees the American people just acting out of blood lust then they will fear any incoming democratic administration.
Perhaps we should be listening to the Iraqis.
They say get out!
They should hear our opposition saying the same.
Not 'we need to stay in Iraq'


They are not saying 'show me more pictures of the Torture my husband, son, uncle, aunt, and sister told me about in horrific detail'.

edited for spelling

I left out that the entire RIGHT is in full panic mode!

tolerance and compassion are supposed traits of the left

Well guess what, I'm not turning the other cheek; that's for the Arabs to decide and unfortunately they sound a little too pissed to turn the other cheek especially when they don't know which exactly cheek the Right-wingers are talking about.

Tolerance & compassion? Watching how 'we' go in for the kill? Excuse me while I HURL. That's what America was asked to do when right-wingers whipped it into this blood-thirsty NAZI frenzy that sent young American kids half-way around the world to kill "terrarists" all over the place (by the way, what is it with the spelling? terrarist?)

We need to realize that we need to treat even bush-co the way we would treat any other peoples of the world

Change the verb from "would" to "did" & we're in total agreement ;)

We should treat them the way we want the terrarist treated.

You're making my sides absolutely HURT, ACHE from laughter.

If the world sees the American people just acting out of blood lust then they will fear any incoming democratic administration.


OMG. This is too much. The only thing the world fears is that Nazi administration squatting in the White House. Do you watch ANYTHING other than FOX for heaven's sake? The way things have gone, what with all the transparent lies, the immoral war, the smirking indifference to the Bush catastrophe, the World is livid enough to drag rusty guillotines & cannons to the White House to help the incoming democratic administration get in ASAP.

Instransigeant Leftists like me are LIVID enough to go for a Democrat I loathe just to get that sociopath out of the White House & away from all those shiny military toys.

You're right about one thing, they're not saying 'show me more pictures of the Torture my husband, son, uncle, aunt, and sister told me about in horrific detail'; they're saying AMERICA LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE! LOOK AT WHO YOU ARE & WHAT YOU SUPPORT & you know what? I'm going to help them.

I'm going to help those "terrarists" make every bloody Bush-loving ape who ever supported this war or occupation LOOK at those photos until they're burned into our souls.

It's a good thing you weren't around when the holocaust pictures came out.

No Standup, we are NOT going to give this rotten administration 1/2 square mm of breathing space on this one so that they can spin their stories and coordinate their lies. This furor is NOT going to die down. If anything, it's going to get a LOT worse as we watch those reptiles run around in an absolute panic that the entire house is crashing down around them.

The RW line is this....We were attacked by Muslims its an eye for an eye.
What your suggesting is that we use the same eye for an eye mentality against them
You assume righteousness is on your side.
Well so do they.
I think you need to act better than they do.
I'm not suggesting sweeping anything under the rug.
I'm not suggesting letting bush-co off the hook by turning the other check

I'm suggesting you not sink to the repug level.
I'm suggesting show the world you have had enough now. There is enough evidence for decent people to rise.

If you let the RW turn the left into rabid dogs then they have won again.

And where have you seen one Iraqi say ..AMERICA LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE! LOOK AT WHO YOU ARE & WHAT YOU SUPPORT..
And if there is a link could they not be referring to the mountain of evidence already made public.

And that is a flawed concept, to say the least

their "witch-hunt" on Bill Clinton--to the point we had to hear OVER AND OVER AGAIN--IN THE PUBLIC MEDIA--about something that was not only a private manner but then we had Ken Starr who was so obsessed with the "cigar" and "blue dress" that he looked like a pervert getting off on it.

I have no sympathy for the RW. They use every dirty tactic they can to discredit good people. As far as the Iraqi people...they LIVE with the abuse and turmoil everyday. Someone needs to speak for them since they are unable to get their voice out. NO, while the pictures are dispicable, they represent truth. Abuse is always hard to see, but to silence it only makes it worse.

Free Republic right now and each one is as transparent as the other. They went from "nothing more than a Frat Party" to this sudden concern for the dignity of the victims and they've been trying to infiltrate us all week to say the same things you're saying because they need this to die down quick and buy Bush some time to get his lies straight.

I'm really sorry Standup but I haven't had enough. I won't have enough until every single American is aware of what happened, how depraved it was and how far up the chain this was sanctioned.

Right now, the average person in the streets thinks we did nothing wrong over there and that what happened in that prison was just a little "kid's stuff".

It wasn't kid's stuff and it can't be buried or calmed down.

Why on earth would you register on this web-site to come tell us what to do today? Wouldn't your time be better spent asking the Canadian press to drop the story?

Why on earth would you register on this web-site to come tell us what to do today? Wouldn't your time be better spent asking the Canadian press to drop the story?

Yeah Stand-up, it IS funny to watch someone come here and tell us that the "Great" American leaders blah blah blah. What "Great" American leaders? Bush? Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld? Is that who you call "Great" American leaders?

Yes Standup. My sides are aching from laughter because there's nothing 'great' about them and from the first sentence your introductory thread is totally out of place here.

Nice try though.

I know this will do absolutely no good whatsoever, but what the hell, you gave me such a howling good laugh (honestly, I thought your first post was a joke), I feel I owe you some acknowledgement.

You wrote:

The RW line is this....We were attacked by Muslims its an eye for an eye.

No, the RW line is this: We were attacked by Muslims, which gave the Bush* cabal the excuse they'd been waiting for to attack an oil-rich country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

You wrote:

What your suggesting is that we use the same eye for an eye mentality against them

Against Muslims or Repukes? If you mean Repukes, you need to get something straight, but damned quick:

Torture is not a partisan issue.

Exposing torture is not a partisan issue. I wouldn't give a flying hoot who was in charge; if Dennis Kucinich himself were elected president, suddenly lost his mind (and soul), and allowed such atrocities to continue under his command (President = Commander-in-Chief, remember?), I would be screaming for his impeachment, indictment, and subsequent trial in The Hague, too.

This is not about getting a foot-up on Repukes. It is about the worst abuses of human beings perpetuated in YOUR name and mine which we have been allowed to see since the Vietnam War.

Christ Almighty! To suggest, even obliquely, that our collective outrage and determination to expose any ruthless, Nazi-like regime simply because they're not Democrats is not only a slap in the face to every American patriot (and I am one), but one of the most overused RW talking points out there.

Where do you come up with these ideas? Do you consume a steady diet of Faux News?

You wrote:

You assume righteousness is on your side.
Well so do they.

Sorry, sooky, but you're confusing partisanship with right-and-wrong. And, in case you haven't been paying attention, outrage over this torture is not divided by party lines; this is one of those rare times any Republican with so much as an ounce of conscience is in total agreement with the most left-wing tree-hugger.

This is also one of those verrrry rare times when a black-and-white worldview is 100% correct, and all the planet's people truly can be divided into "good and evil."

If you want to call the good guys "self-righteous," that's up to you.

You wrote:

I think you need to act better than they do.

If you mean the collective "you," that's exactly the point, dude: America needs many swift, hard kicks in the ass before the nation as a whole will realize that in this case, those who wield authority over us peasants, and the sadistic bastards who inflict torture on POWs ARE NO BETTER than the Nazis.

If you are suggesting that Democrats need to "act better" than Repukes, that goes back to your confusion over partisanship.

Repeat after me: Torture is not a partisan issue. Torture is not a partisan issue. Torture is not a partisan issue.

It is a HUMAN RIGHTS issue.

You wrote:

I'm not suggesting sweeping anything under the rug.
I'm not suggesting letting bush-co off the hook by turning the other check

I'm suggesting you not sink to the repug level.

You really don't see what you're saying, do you? You really have no concept of the fact that by exposing this shit, we are rising ABOVE "the repug level."

Golly gee whiz, as far as I know, it wasn't Nancy Pelosi trying to keep these photos under wraps now, was it?

And I'll tell you something else: You'd be hard-pressed to find a single person here who would be willing to abet a cover-up instigated by a Democratic administration. We'd be calling for their resignations, impeachments, indictments, etc., just as fast.

You wrote:

I'm suggesting show the world you have had enough now. There is enough evidence for decent people to rise.

With all due respect... Bullshit. The few photos that have been circulated and have rattled your fragile sensibilities are the tiniest tip of an iceberg big enough to take out ten Titanics.

Allow the American people to think they've seen the worst of it -- and to believe this was indeed an isolated incident -- and what are you going to get? A nation full of "good Germans" who won't wake the fuck up until our soldiers get the go-ahead to start loading Iraqis on trains to the mass crematoriums.

You wrote:

If you let the RW turn the left into rabid dogs then they have won again.

Speak for yourself, Cujo.

And where have you seen one Iraqi say ..AMERICA LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE! LOOK AT WHO YOU ARE & WHAT YOU SUPPORT..

Pardon me, but exactly what does that sentence even mean?

And if there is a link could they not be referring to the mountain of evidence already made public.

And that sentence?

Well, hope you've learned something here, but I sincerely doubt it.

Enjoy your stay.

Excellent work Sapphocrat!
:toast:

"We need to realize that we need to treat even bush-co the way we would treat any other peoples of the world
We should treat them the way we want the terrarist treated."

What the HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Your posts are incoherent at best.

Are you implying we want to be inhumane to the Bush people?

sorry for incoherence I'm trying to reply to a lot of people.
This is the first time I have had a debate on this board so forgive me.

I see a lot of rage on this and other Democrat boards and i see people calling for all kinds of retribution for Bush-co.

what i fear is collateral damage from that retribution
Democrats shouldn't allow anymore suffering from innocents while they go in for the kill with bush.

I think more picture will cause more suffering
" We need to hurt a few more of you to end this monstrous regime"

Sound familiar
I think the Iraqis have herd that before as well.

I think the question should be will the Iraqis suffer more from more pictures.

<I think more picture will cause more suffering
" We need to hurt a few more of you to end this monstrous regime">

I still don't know what you mean. I realize that some Arabs feel that it is humiliating to see these images but they should. They should see what we're doing to their own people (many absolutely fucking innocent). They should be allowed to see the truth to have the appropriate amount of outrage. THAT'S REAL FREEDOM - NOT THE 'FREEDOM' SHRUB SPEAKS OF.

I think you are wrong - end of fucking story!!!!!!!!!

Until the Iraqis see that we are doing something about it IE a trial.
They won't see any good being done by releasing more pictures now.
Enough evidence is out there to start to bring people to justice.

" I realize that some Arabs feel that it is humiliating to see these images but they should. They should see what we're doing to their own people (many absolutely fucking innocent). They should be allowed to see the truth to have the appropriate amount of outrage. THAT'S REAL FREEDOM - NOT THE 'FREEDOM' SHRUB SPEAKS OF."

They don't need pictures my friend they see it when they look out their windows and speak to their families.

I hoped some would agree
and some have
but I never called any of you names

I can't believe I wasted so much time on you and these bogus concepts.

No one will be brought to justice unless there is a public outcry.

There will be no public outcry unless people see the photos and eventually realize what they supported & are STILL supporting in Iraq.

It is THAT simple.


Bush is trying to hide the photos right now. To stop them from being shown because he knows that those photos spell his end.

Please no more pics, no more photos is the equivalent of Rumsfeld saying "please no more digital cameras".

then they will fear any incoming democratic administration"...
What an ABSOLUTE crock! They aren't going to get a democratic government in the first place...secondly, the American people acting out in bloodlust??????????? Surely you jest! The world needs to see the outrage of the DECENT American person...the decent HUMAN, for that matter.

The world has already seen the US act out of bloodlust...and oil-lust, and greed-lust, and power-lust...need I say more?

Jenn

Or southern Kentucky. How close am I?

As long as Rush and Hannity continue to minimize and excuse what's been seen so far, then we haven't seen enough. Show 'em so that only the criminally perverse will remain as apologists for torture (which may yet include Rush and Hannity, who knows?).

what exactly is your political agenda.


I know I speak for alot of DU'ers.

YOUR SUSPECT.

Pretend that some stuff didn't happen?

It did happen and we have to see it. We have to make sure that everyone knows what happened. Yes, it's difficult to look at but it needs to be seen.

But hiding the evidence of these crimes can only have one purpose.

to tell their stories, we know we're hearing from the right people.

Janet Jackson's breast, right? (I note your use fo the phrase "perverse pleasure.")

People need to see this so that they know what war is about.

Would you have said, 'no pictures of lynchings, german shepard attack dogs, water cannons, etc.' during the civil rights movement?

Would you have said, 'no pictures of holocaust victims'?

meanwhile the systematic, systemic, sadistic, sanctioned, depraved abuse, rape, torture of helpless victims of their oil-lust is "nothing"- something to be swept under the rug.

What delicate sensitivities.

Hitler used to cry when he saw a dog in pain.

Well?

But I think the people that are calling it abuse and frat pranks and blowing off steam need to see the ones that haven't been released yet daily and have same things done to them to see if they still feel it is not torture.

Kindly refrain from showing the truth. We are all too preoccupied with American Idol and Trista Bachelorette. Thank you.

The real arguement is "No more abuse please". Let me rewrite this for you:

The Great American Leaders have admitted that there are gruesome and grotesque video and pictures. Editors have decided on showing pictures that document torture and foreshadow possibly worse events having taken place--in fact the government has confirmed many more pictures and movies of the abuse.

I think the world and the Iraqis need to see further evidence that there is something very very wrong so that we can prevent more of this in the future.

Showing the pictures and video will may further entrench the hatred but it will also show the extent of the damage done by the American Soldiers to the Iraqi people we have promised to protect.

If you want the pictures released to discredit Bushco or the freepers, then you have the wrong mindset. I think you should consider the feelings of the victims and understand the pictures are being released so that the whole world can see the extent of the actions of the guards.

Yes, the world might draw the conclusion that the U.S. is so morally bankrupt that they get perverse pleasure looking at pictures and video of such horrors. Hopefully, the will see the pictures in the same light that we Americans do: a sad look at how a few soldiers, underwatched, undertrained, undereducated will follow the illegal commands of their supervisors in order to obtain sick pleasure.
We do not want want to purposely humiliate Muslims further--we want to make sure the criminal acts committed by the Americans is fully investiaged and record for all time.


Please no more abuse.

and possibly humiliation and it should be swept under the rug...move on...nothing happened here...we are prosecuting a few wrongdoers who do not represent our wonderful American principles.
WE MUST SHOW THE PICTURES. These pictures will show it came from the top and a real atrocities. As a matter of fact, it started with Bush*'s arrogance and disdain for anything that is not his opinion and the voices he hears in his head.

EVERY picture needs to be shown and shown and shown and shown again.

This cannot be swept under the rug. The administration would like nothing more than for there to be no more pictures because Americans have a very short term memory and tend to "downplay" the seriousness of things without visual aids.

The feelings of the victims will be best served by the truth coming out and by those responsible being held accountable. That will NOT happen unless it is shoved in everyone's face EVERY DAY until something is done. If it goes away from national attention, it will go away for good. The only way to keep it in the national spotlight is to keep making people uncomfortable with how horrible it is.

If the pictures disturb you - good. They should. They should be BURNED into the brains of every American who has ever dismissively said "that would never happen in America." The should be burned into the brains of everyone, period. And they should not go away, not at all, until there is accountability in our government and our military.

The American people have a right to know how depraved its leaders are!

"people who have got something to hide make us nervous."

-GW Bush


there are already too many heads in the sand. I understand your point but 99.99999% of the problem in this country is that people have been willingly blind for too long to the true face of war. There are still millions of Americans that STILL BELIEVE THE "LIBERATION" BULLSHIT!!!

They need to wake up, asap

If in Germany 1941-44, would you have disallowed reports with photos in the concentration camps?

I listening to Rush right now. I like to know my enemy.
Even if the videos show American soldiers raping killing and raping again people like him and Hannity will be still trying to spin it.
None of the pictures released look anything close to a college prank yet he says they do

These pictures should have been released.

But when it’s obvious that NO heads are going to roll and the buck is still floating around in space I don't see how any further release will help.
I think many people already believe these pictures were released to replace the humiliation of defeat in Fallujah, and the reinstatement of the bathist, with images of Iraqi humiliation.

The American people on the side of justice already have enough proof.
The American on the side of tyranny also already have enough proof...they are just on the side of tyranny by choice.

Yes...know your enemy indeed. Please. Take off eh!

And like everyone who wants to hinder the free flow of information, he's got a point.

If we hope to see these photos (or hope that they are seen by policy makers) we'd better be able to make our argument. So StandUpGuy should be taken seriously, as we all should who are not obvious disrupters.

There's always a reason against free speech (just listen to O'Reilly), and although we shouldn't have to actively support it, in the current culture we have to. At least that's what I think.

lol!

Edit - I hope that was sarcasm!

but, by the mid 1960s the accumulation became too much and the civil rights act '64 was passed.

I think there won't be too much infomation ever. But I think there will be just enough when people finally reevaluate American imperialism and decide that this isn't really "freedom' that were bringing thise people.

Think of how things might have went!

Imagine what would have happened if there were NO cameras?

I just wonder how things would have went down with the speed of information flying around the globe, in the past.

You don't need to wait to see it in a magzine or on the nightly news.

Then again, what's the hold-up with this second round of pictures?

Have any guesses? I do.......

Sorry, this is war.

No rah, rah, hooray for our side, "noble" as we are to "free" the Iraqis from "tyranny." It takes this kind of crap to make people wanting to stop fighting the war. Both sides.

Maybe, just maybe, if we get enough detail, we will say enough.

Have we had enough war yet? Enough dead babies? Enough mutilated contractors? Enough dead sons and daughters? Enough no-grandchildren-now grandmas and granddads? Enough broken marriages? Enough schoolchildren going without in the US so we can pay Halliburton to rebuild Iraq?

I guess not. We need to just STOP. Maybe more pictures will start our stopping.

Bring 'em on. Get ready to get disgusted. Then thank George Bush.

I want to hear Rush excuse video of rapes as a frat prank. It's time the Reich wing mouth pieces were made to face the consequences of their venom. Show everything and let's hear how far the war pigs will go in defending their morally bankrupt ideology.

We're supposed to be a "free and open society" (of course that's debatable). In such societies, information is released whether they offend people or not.

The hatred is as great as it will get. We already invaded the country and have killed thousands. The Arab world has, unlike the US, seen pictures of the dead and wounded. They're already pissed.

On the other hand, here at home, many still seem to believe these were "frat pranks" or "no big deal". To them, the pictures and video may be the only thing possible to convince them otherwise.

People have to understand what war does to soldiers and the civilians affected by it. I know that the fascist Bush administration would rather hide those pictures, especially after touting that "Saddam's torture chambers are finally gone" ...

Apparently, those pics already shown have not affected about 36% of the American population (CNN polls). How else would you explain that Rush called the torture just "soldiers blowing off steam"


You have the right not to look at them if they are shown. But the only way to show that we (still) have a Democracy is opening up all the gruesome details and admit fault. Only Fascist governments try to hide the truth.

:(

if not, then it seems to support the cover-up

that was the saddest attempt at disruption yet!

A politicle obejective?

What am i disrupting ?

i thought debate was welcome i'm sicker of american politics than anyone.
Bushco are murdering criminal scumbags.
I also think that the Democratic Leadership are complicit (95-3 negroponte)
so i'm not exactly sure what it is i'm trying to disrupt ?

We all know you're trying to disrupt, and worse then that you're trying to cover up atrocities, and you're doing it for your own "politicle obejective" and really that's just disgusting.

pathetic!

do you think I'd spew such vitriol to try and dupe the mods just so i could argue against releasing pictures.

I just don't think its a good idea to stir up any more hate.
not until a war crimes trial at which point all pictures should be released
right now i think more would just be salt on the wounds

It's rather obvious you're spewing up vitriol, and you're not paying very close attention, because you're starting to contradict yourself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=535624#535728

Post #22

"I wouldn't want one of these criminals to take the fall for the whole gang.
Asking for one or another resignation plays into a limited culpability scenario.
Kerry should push a clean sweep agenda and hit each member of the cabinet hard. Attack the records. Name names. Everyone is culpable.
But unfortunately that includes the democratic leadership so I’m sure he'll stick to the script that limits the damage all around"


Now PUHLEEEZE!!!!!!!!!

:eyes:

and that you were mistaken?

Edit:
Actually 1 specific response is all that is needed.
That Rush can say these things and have some hope of people listening is enough of a reason by itself.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1570483#1572499

:yourock:

Hopefully generating a few clicks from here. It is so easy it is hard not to click :)

Click. Click. Done!

Peace

It is the Bushevik Tyrants who have seized our nation and now rule it with a Iron Fist (iun a velvet glove for at least a little while longer).

To hide the extent of the crimes committed in our name is to cover for the masters of this abomination. You say we should consider the feeling of the victims, IMHO you feel the victims are *, and his cabinet.

the SOD said there was horrific abuses.

THAT IS ENOUGH for me to demand they PAY

they are not paying
Instead of Demanding they release more pictures you need to realize that past and present protest methods have failed.
its time to figure out how to get rid of these guys NOW not in 6 months
Thats a lot of time to cause a lot more hurt.

They were tortured. No more war crimes coverup!!!

PLEASE FORGET!

WE'LL SOLVE ALL OUR PROBLEMS BY PRETENDING THEY DON"T EXIST!

Now on a serious side, who the hell are you actually trying to kid?

That was the lamest attempt I've seen, though

It's all pretty lame though.

Or am i suposed to agree with everybody till i reach 1000 posts ?
I live in Canada
I keep my self involved and informed
I don't need to see any more pic to be convinced that the U.S.A. has commited war atrosities.
I am one of the most vocal left wingers on my block

I have seen enough

I WANT THIS CRIMINAL REGIME HOG TIED and PUT IN JAIL

The people aren't getting the tiniest taste of what war looks like. Yes it makes you very very sad to look at- fine. DON'T FUCKING LOOK!

You are disrupting by advocating that information not be allowed to be given to the people WHO DESERVE TO KNOW THE FUCKING TRUTH!!!

Finally the real horrible face of this war is making it to the couch potato masses and you want it to stop?!?!?!

Man come on!

IMHO if the couch potato masses need more proof that Bush-co is TORTURING RAPING SADIST then they have purposely been changing the channel.
And they will continue to do so. Until some good folks stop being politically correct in social situations and start raging on any bush supports left. Ostracize them. Do not be polite. Take a stand. Jeopardized you're own comfort.

The right wingers always try and frame and issue.
This one they say the Liberals are "wringing there hands with glee"

Are we ?

I don't think so but they say that because we demand more and more and more.
The people sitting on the couch already changed the channel
more pics won't make them switch back.

I don't think Iraqis need to see what the oppressors are doing in pictures. They have enough first hand evidence.
A War crime tribunal is the place for more pictures.

I think you're take on this issue is bogus. I think more information is better for people. I think you're wrong about the average person. I think you are a disrupter in sheeps clothing.

I think your "war crimes tribunal" argument is groundless since this admin has opted out of war crimes tribunals. NO MORE COVERUPS - REAL ACTION IS NECESSARY

AND THE TRUTH NEEDS TO BE BROADCAST TO EVERYONE

after what you posted in #15, you dare say "rush speak"???? you can not even respond to the posts that refute your positions. "rush speak"????????

I was called a disrupter several times without any explanation why...
rush speak = trying to brow beat any dissenting opinion without trying to argue any facts
he was rushspeaking

does anybody have a problem with me listening to rush/hannity

I also listen to Democracy Now, Flashpoints TBTM radio, and Air America

oops I forgot I even listen to Alex Jones every now and then....I must be a disruptor

or maybe a free thinker you be the judge.

Mr Blindfold!

But they need to be shown until everyone feels as you say you do:

I WANT THIS CRMINAL REGIME HOG TIED and PUT IN JAIL.

People gotta get sick of war. It's gotta get personal. Unfortunately, the most "personal" it will get for your average American is seeing pictures like these. The fact is, relatively few Dems or pukes will experience the loss of a loved one, a broken marriage due to the war, or anything else so close to devastation.

Your threshold for rage and desire for justice is obviously lower than some pukes who can tolerate war in theory far longer than your average hominid with a functioning forebrain.

you can make the call for yourself to look no more. but when we start censoring what is still to come because some people have already seen enough, we are diluting the horror and impact that MUST occur for people in this country to wake up to what the current leadership of this country has wrought.

you've seen enough? stop looking. i have.

You're Canadian. Stick to what you know, Canadian politics and Canadian people.

You don't have the same Right-wing up there that we have down here. If you want this criminal hog-tied and put in jail, stop spreading HIS talking points.

The MAJORITY of the people in the United States do not believe that the US has committed war atrocities. This isn't Canada Stand-up. We are living under a fascist system right now and this is NO time to turn the other cheek.

Would you have said that during the Holocaust? Turn the other cheek? Put the photos away? Unfortunately TOO many people did They waited on a World Court to get those bastards and by the time they did 11 million people were dead.

We're not going to wait. We are going to SHOCK & AWE the world with Bush's crimes until that slime is dragged out of the White House.

You can also expect a flood of whistleblowing leaks coming out of every other agency as people see the handwriting on the wall and either a)seek to preserve their careers after chimpco leaves next Jan or b) cover their own asses from investigations and subsequent house cleaning that will occur when Kerry takes over.

Career federal employees take the system seriously--they understand they are under the control of political appointees from top to bottomn. They will follow orders loyally, but they're not going to sacrifice their careers for the boneheaded agenda of their Schedule C masters.

When a new administration takes over, it doesn't take long for the political staff to figure out which career staff did what for the previous administration. The ones who are deemed too "close" to the last admin's policies, especially the ones the new admin wants to change, find themselves shuffled around, their careers on hold.

Many career workers--more than a few of whom I know personally--know that Kerry is going to win, and they'll be damned if they're going to be identified too closely with Chimp's smarmyness.

The full extent of the Bush/Cheney Reign of Terror and Torture must be made public... and they must be held accountable for their sadistic crimes and murderous rampage. Sorry but benign terms such "unjust war" serve only to obscure the depravity of this administration.

whyTF does it have to be compared to the holocaust. both are examples of unacceptable depravity committed by militaries that derive their near monopolistic violence from state power. other than that why compare the torture in iraq to the attempted genocide in europe? perhaps they would be a reason, but in terms of comparing the trials (which by association refer to the acts themselves) a birthday party is unacceptable. piss off

Outrageous torture yes - genocide this is not.

Holocaust=MILLIONS DEAD AND TORTURED

Ref: the statement of Justice Jackson, about STARTING WARS.

Killing thousands in an unjust war WE STARTED, plus torturing.

I simply am wary of comparisons between this war and the Holocaust. I don't think we're in disagreement. Are we?

would qualify as genocide in my definition. Why did this administration (who is quick to utilize "the law" when its advantageous to them) not pursue a civil & legal path to prosecute "the few bad apples" that took down the Twin Towers and murdered 3,000 people? Why did this administration choose to decimate 2 countries, murdering 10's of thousands of innocent human beings. BECAUSE IT COULD! That is GENOCIDE.

I'm just wary about comparisons to the Holocaust.

more pictures!
We need pic from Afghanistan too! We need them on the front cover of our papers every single morning! The victims of torture will not feel exploited if their pictures serve to wake Americans up to their benign indifference to this war.

We need LOTS more pictures...

Frankly, I think you are practicing double speak here andattempting to manipulate people with this line of reasoning. There is NO MORE exploitive act than to let this pass through a news cycle and allow Americans to forget about it.

We need pics on the front page of the paper every day until Americans realize we have LOST THIS WAR.

We need the pics of the underage girls and boys they raped too! Lots and lots of pics everday until people can't take it anymore.

Standupguy....sit down.

I thought the pictures of the Babies with crushed heads would have been enough
I thought the pictures of the women and children fleeing for the lives would have been enough
I thought the pictures of wild dogs eating human flesh in the streets would have been enough
I thought the pictures of prisoners being tortured and raped would have been enough

BUT they weren't
you say
"The victims of torture will not feel exploited if their pictures serve to wake Americans up to their benign indifference to this war."

but do they feel exploited now. The victims have seen nothing from any of these pictures what makes you think they believe any more photo's will change anything
have you asked any of them ?

What the FUCK good can come of less photos?

ANSWER ME DAMNIT!!!

There are two human qualities the world it seems doesn't see from the American people.
Shame and Humility
When the Leaders say sorry and assume responsibility without any consequences the world just shakes its head.
Not releasing the pictures would mean nothing either unless this administration starts receive its punishment.
Who is going to do the punishing ?
The elections aren't enough to satisfy the world that the American people are outraged.

There are too many other reason bush Will lose the election to send a clear message that you did not support the torture and rape.
maybe not showing the pictures means the administration is ashamed of them
That shame is something that can be used by the Dems.

Even with the pictures, all the scandals, all the claims that they will investigate their own administration, the worm has not turned.

The pictures compete with the 24/7 onslaught of Rush and Hannity et el. Those pictures ARE THE conduit for searching for the American soul...if the Germans had their face rubbed in it sooner, they would have woken up..

Again...your arguments are barely cloaked in morality and given that they keep changing, I now consider them suspect.

It doesn't serve your goal of Shaming and Humiliting W & Co by not looking at or discussing the pictures. It seems more your own shame and humility you do not wish to see.

We need to see the darkness within, see it for what it is, face it squarely in the eye so that we can make decisions about moving away from it. I hope.

This scandal needs to rage on loud and long. And senior officials need to lose their careers over it for allowing or insisting on the torture. The world cannot afford to put up with it, excuse it, or let it go by the wayside.

We owe the tortured nothing less.

maybe not showing the pictures means the administration is ashamed of them

That shame is something that can be used by the Dems.


PLEASE. What fucking shame? Do any of them look ASHAMED to you?

They're not ashamed! They're pissed off they got caught. Pissed off that "digital cameras on the battlefield are fucking everything up (TM)"

What SHAME?

Please spare us their crocodile tears. If you are THAT concerned about morality and turning the other cheek and all that Bush-covering crap, there's plenty of work for you in convincing people that this war was immoral to begin with and educating stupid Freepers.

You can click here to start. I'd suggest you work on the spelling of "terrarist" because they might confuse you with one of their own.

Frankly, you are trying to sweep this inder the carpet. If the pictures go away, the story goes away. If the story goes away, the Bush administration continues with business as usual.

How are you protecting anyone from anything?

i didn't suggest throwing the pictures away.
I suggested keeping them for a war crimes trial.
I know that bush has done everything in his power to aviod this but we'll see if the world and or the next administration lets them lets them get away with it.
Remember Clinton let Bush 1 off the hook for Iran Contra.

oops i said it Clinton i must be a disruptor.

oops i said it Clinton i must be a disruptor.


Right now the story is being limited to appear to be a few rogue troops. In that manner they can contain it and make it appear the problem is self limited and contained.

I thought being called a disruptor over 10 times would remove me from the complex category

After all the pictures, there is a link to many on this thread, this administration is still trying to spin it.

they have admitted RAPE and Torture. Did you watch the rumsfeld testimony ?
The media is helping them spin it by using all the soft language like " sex with a woman"

Like I said, even if there is video of American soldiers raping then killing then raping again this administration told you today how it feels.

They have seen everything and No one is going to get fired.
Thats it period!
No more pictures are going to change there stance.

They said they have seen them all....even Chimpy
So if they do get released they're not going to say 'oh wow thats terrible... your fired '

That should have happened today if it was going to happen. Bush has now seen all the pics and is asking for the people to thank Rumsfeld

will disappear.

I thought being called a disruptor over 10 times would remove me from the complex category

If people have called you a disruptor, you have a right and responsibility to hit the alert for their infractions of the rules...using it to feign persecution in order to bolster your arguments is crap.

After all the pictures, there is a link to many on this thread, this administration is still trying to spin it.

So what? They spin everything until they can't. We saw that with the outing of Valerie Plame...guess what..keeping it in the public eye is working.

they have admitted RAPE and Torture. Did you watch the rumsfeld testimony ?
The media is helping them spin it by using all the soft language like " sex with a woman"

No I didn't watch the Rumsfeld testimony I was working..but I did read about it. The media has been complicit all along...again...so what? What does that have to do with your original argument?



Like I said, even if there is video of American soldiers raping then killing then raping again this administration told you today how it feels.

They have seen everything and No one is going to get fired.
Thats it period!
No more pictures are going to change there stance.

More pictures creates more outrage creates more pressure. I disagree...your answer is to let it go...I call bulllshit.


They said they have seen them all....even Chimpy
So if they do get released they're not going to say 'oh wow thats terrible... your fired '

That should have happened today if it was going to happen. Bush has now seen all the pics and is asking for the people to thank Rumsfeld

As with Watergate..it ain't the crime, it's the coverup. I still find your arguments specious and curious.

He admits everything
I'm not saying cover up shit
ITS ON THE RECORD
He took FULL RESPONSIBILITY

The problem is Nobody is forcing any consequences. none zero

When i said Today was the day. I mean it.
Bush up until now could have said I know rummy took responsibility but i had know idea how bad the rape and pedophilia, and necrophilia was but now that i see ..God Damn they must go.

But today he saw the extent of what Rummy took responsibility for and Demanded no Consequences. Oh he did demand one thing tho..
Thanks


New pictures aren't going to do anything other than stir up more hate.

You keep saying the pictures aren't going to stir up more hate but against WHOM?

BTW, since when does the world operate on some guy's timeline on an internet message board?

do you think the world realizes that Hannity/Rush are in the minority.
Rush gets $30 million a year

here's Hannity's from Friday

This Nation was attacked (u.s.)these people
(??) are out there plotting and planing and scheming their next
attack against Innocent men women and children..They think they are
doing gods will when they kill children and they think virgins are
waiting for them in heaven, and if you think we can negotiate with
these people, if you think we can get along with these people, if
you think we can get them to join us in this battle, you are so
naive ..

Thats what were up against he will say the same when rape movies emerge.
Do you really want more of the "they"s to hate you.
Showing these Pictures creates just as many terrorist as Invading does.

Showing these Pictures creates just as many terrorist as Invading does.


Showing the pictures doesn't create anything. Pretending to liberate people from a dictator who advocated the use of torture chambers against his opponents by using torture chambers does.

Again...you have not made the case for concealing the pictures no matter how many times your reasoning for doing so has shifted.

First it was exploiting them. Then it was because nothing would happen by showing them. Now it's just going to create more terrorism and make people hate us....your ever moving line of reasoning is not impressive.

saying someone has flip flopped is a right wing tactic

1st I said its humiliating to Iraqis
Du'ers said No its not its cathartic
2nd I said Nothing would change in this administration by showing more pictures
3rd I said it would create more terrorists. IE people willing to die to stop America

And forth I will say that it puts American Soldiers in Iraq in an even more precarious position.

that is the evolution of an argument not a flip flop.

1st I said its humiliating to Iraqis

Not more humiliating than the original event for which they are awaiting justice.

2nd I said Nothing would change in this administration by showing more pictures
Assumes facts not in evidence



3rd I said it would create more terrorists. IE people willing to die to stop America

Faulty reasoning. Again, justifying or ignoring it will create FAR more terrorists than demonstrating to the world that these are the acts of poor leadership rather than that the country collectively supports by benign indifference these actions.

And forth I will say that it puts American Soldiers in Iraq in an even more precarious position.

Good..they should get the fuck out.

Finally, NO you didn't evolve the argument...your interpretation of evolution is my interpretation of grabbing at straws.

If there is no evidence that showing these pictures will change anything then showing them now will only cause pain.
Maybe not as much as when the acts occurred but pain non the less.

Bush said today we need to thank Rumsfeld.
He has seen the worst pictures.
If they do get released and America somehow sees these pictures as worse than the mountain already on the record he can't say that he has a different moral compass than the American People. He can't say OK well I thought they were fine but you all seem to be upset so I'll fire Rumsfeld.
He will spin and spin and spin.
There is already a mountain of fact in evidence.
The only time i THINK the Iraqis will be willing to suffer the pain again is if they know there WILL be justice not hoping to get justice.

It's not faulty reasoning to think more pictures will cause more terrorists.

I agree with your point but it's not relevant to my argument.
I'm not suggesting you sweep anything under the rug, and I haven't once tried to justify any of this
There is enough evidence to act on now. Period.!
We are saying the the Muslim world. the pictures we've already seen aren't enough.
We need to see them all before we decide.

Do you think the people will rise up and overthrow him when they see the rape video.

to act on it...that is what is the problem for me with your argument.

If there is no evidence that showing these pictures will change anything then showing them now will only cause pain.
Maybe not as much as when the acts occurred but pain non the less.

I don't know what or whose perspective you are really taking up when you say it will only cause more pain. It seems to me it will only cause more pain for Americans..and that pain is a pain of conscience which is sorely needed.

In Iraq right now, the population is being occupied, civilians are being killed and people who do not belong behind bars are being tortured..so again...pain IS relative. If the pain is caused to Americans prudish sensibilities so be it.

If the pain is future terrorist threats, then perhaps an evaluation of the means with which we chose to fight terrorism is in order.

After all..this whole mess was caused by avoidance and a desire for retribution...

Bush said today we need to thank Rumsfeld.
He has seen the worst pictures.
If they do get released and America somehow sees these pictures as worse than the mountain already on the record he can't say that he has a different moral compass than the American People. He can't say OK well I thought they were fine but you all seem to be upset so I'll fire Rumsfeld.
He will spin and spin and spin.
There is already a mountain of fact in evidence.
The only time i THINK the Iraqis will be willing to suffer the pain again is if they know there WILL be justice not hoping to get justice.

Again, who would have suspected anything different from Bush and what he does has nothing to do with whether pictures should be shown...political will is a funny thing.



Do you think the people will rise up and overthrow him when they see the rape video.

The way we overthrown leaders is by voting them out or impeaching them. Certainly being as concerned as you are about causing more pain, you wouldn't be advocating for violent revolution in America would you?

[

case - and that is precicely the problem and outrage #2 - that they KNEW about them and DID NOTHING until THE REST OF US SAW THEM TOO!

That's why they tried to cover them up!

That's why just having them "know about them" has done no good - THEY DON'T CARE!

They are only now somewhat concerned - about the damage it has done to THEM personally, not the acts themselves - because we all now know it too!

AND THEY STILL DON'T CARE!

The * admin would have never even responded to this (and indeed they tried to supress it) were it not for images:

"Both the President and his Pentagon chief claimed to be "shocked" or "disgusted" by the forms a torture system took – by its look. Yes, they had been informed of what had happened at Abu Ghraib prison, but those, after all, were just words, months of words. The difference was the images on television and in the press. "We saw the pictures," said the President. "It is the photographs that gives one the vivid realization of what actually took place," said his secretary of defense. "Words don't do it. The words that there were abuses, that it was cruel, that it was inhumane, all of which is true, that it was blatant, you read that and it's one thing. You see the photographs and you get a sense of it, and you cannot help but be outraged."

That is in itself a kind of confession, if you consider it for a moment. You cannot help but be outraged. All those previous months from mid-January 2004 on, when he and his president assumedly only knew about the "words" (grim enough certainly in General Taguba's report), when they were, in the pungent phrase of Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, "apprised orally," our secretary of defense and our President could evidently "help but be outraged." And that tells us a great deal.

They could, it seems, practice "deniability" not only on us but on themselves. Human beings are as capable of this as they are of turning into animals and torturing other human beings. But whatever deceptions they may have practiced on themselves, the simple fact is that the penal system they set up was a torture system.

The Bush administration, while speaking loudly of bringing its version of democracy to the Middle East, was also eager, as Adam Hochschild wrote for Tomdispatch many months ago, to bring the developing "age of human rights" to a speedy end in the pursuit of what former CIA director and enthusiastic neocon James Woolsey liked to call "World War IV," which was imagined, like the Cold War, as a many decades long slog to victory in which only the toughest, those willing to wield brute power and commit the most difficult acts, would survive."

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18645

That essentially put an end to any prosecution of HIM - BEFORE CLINTON TOOK OFFICE!

You need to get your lies straight before you start spewing them, hmmmmm?!

So Clinton couldn't have reversed any pardons or pursued any new investigations ?

I just proved you stated a lie, and now what, it's not good enough, that now he somehow is at fault for trying to do something he couldn't legally do?

So you change the subject?

Pardon's are final - and it's WAYYYYY beside the point of your prooven lie.

But go ahead, continue to bring up a non-issue of Clenis - now I'm positive where you're really comming from - and it don't fool anybody here.

You are really a piece of work.

Bush essentially let himself off the hook for Iran-contra

http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1992/921224-260039.htm

And so far, the ones that can talk, HAVE BEEN USING THE PHGTOS TO PROVE THEIR TORTURE!

As far as you other thought gems, THEY HAVEN'T!

Have you watched ANY of the news this past weekend or listened to that repig creep John Warner!

They are backpeddling faster than the crew of the Titanic on that fateful nite!

Wake up and smell the coffee.

The only ones who will look bad are bunkerboy and his gang of criminals - and we will finally have more proof of that fact that they are a gang of criminals!

Why do you think Eisenhower made every GI around walk thru the concentration camps and all the surrounding german citizens go in an haul and bury all the dead?!?!

BECAUSE NO ONE WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE BELIEVES ALL THE TESTIMONY AND PICTURES!

No amount of publicity will ever be enough till we get rid of all repukes and their apologists from power FOREVER!

From Today's Rush Limbaugh Program....

RUSH: Look, folks, let's just cut to the chase here, okay? I've been trying to very slowly and gently maneuver all of you into now. Here's cut-to-the-chase time. We all know what goes on in war. We all know that what's in these pictures we've seen -- and we haven't seen pictures of death -- even this latest picture of the dog and the nude Iraqi, have you seen that one? A couple of Americans are holding it looks like a German shepherd, some kind of vicious big dog, dogs are barking, bow-wow (barking sounds), the Iraqi prisoner is cowering there in fear, he's all nude, and the picture captions "dogs attack Iraqi". No, the dog isn't attacking anybody, the dog is on a leash. The dog is scaring an Iraqi prisoner. (Gasping.) No! We're scaring them, too. Is that allowed in the Geneva Convention? We're scaring them with dogs?

Yes, my friends, we are. The dog didn't attack anybody, dog's not the attacking anybody, dog is on a leash, both of them are. I've seen the picture. So, yeah, I mean I'd be scared too if I were nude and I'd been committing crimes against Americans, now the Americans have me in their prison and a couple of dogs barking at me? Yeah, I might be a little scared. So what? It's war! We all know what goes on in war. And here's what's happened. And I don't know how many of you are part of this group. I'm not part of this group, but there are a significant number of Americans -- let's leave the press and the Dems out of this because they're acting political here, they're acting and so are a lot of people, a lot of people are acting. They have to act outraged and surprised because that's what you think is expected of you.



How many of you went out to social occasions over the weekend, and this subject, this story came up? And how many of you wanted to really say, "I don't see the big deal here. This is war. These are people that tried to kill Americans." But you didn't say it or some variation of that because you were afraid that you were the bunch of people would start yelling at you for being insensitive or coarse or crude or whatever. So you said what you thought you had to say in order to get along during the controversial situation that this conversation came up wherever you were. How many of you did that? Admit it to yourself. You don't have to raise your hands out there. We're not counting hands here. I want you to think about it. Because the fact of the matter is that's what I think most people are doing. This is where my optimism and faith in people of this country remains steadfast. I don't think most people are that outraged by it. Let's put it this way, the public outrage nowhere near matches what we watched on television on Friday and yesterday. Exhibited by these holier-than-thou sanctimonious elected officials who are themselves acting and saying what they think you, their voters, want them to say, and what you their voters expect to hear.

You wrote:

I thought the pictures of the Babies with crushed heads would have been enough
I thought the pictures of the women and children fleeing for the lives would have been enough
I thought the pictures of wild dogs eating human flesh in the streets would have been enough
I thought the pictures of prisoners being tortured and raped would have been enough

BUT they weren't

That's the fucking POINT! Nothing has been "enough" to wake the American public from its blissful, Janet Jackson-ogling, Ben-and-J-Lo hand-wringing, Rush-induced dittohead-nodding coma... until NOW.

As it has been suggested -- strongly, repeatedly -- if you're about to have your own personal little nervous breakdown over these photos and start cowering under the bed in broad daylight because you're afraid the Big, Bad, Bogey-Terra-ist is gonna get you, then STOP LOOKING AT THEM.

Fine, you've had more than your fill of crushed baby heads and dog bites to the testicles. You're convinced that the people who run your country are Very Bad Men Indeed. Congrat-u-fucking-lations -- your consciousness has been raised above that of Ivan "My Son Didn't Do Them Things What You See Him Doing in Them Photos" Frederick.

So. Stop. Looking.

Mr. Frederick, however -- and about 200 million other Mr. Fredericks -- need to be assaulted with as much filthy imagery as exists before they attain the lofty level of enlightenment you have already achieved.

Now, bring on the rest of the photos and videos!

Iraqi prison is one step away from genocide. I'm sure Auschwitz and Dachau probably started out the same way..as "holding tanks" for enemies of the state. Each step a regime gets away with ups the ante.

should be forced to look at the pictures every day for the rest of their lives.


But if you don't like the sexy ones, then you can try out some of these instead:




There are 100's more at the link below. And after you're through with looking at them, come on back, and maybe we can talk 'politics'?


http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

This horrifying situation would never have been recognized or stopped without the pictures. There may still be a majority of the U.S. public who still thinks it is just a handful of perverts who just got a little carried away on the night shift even after staunch Republican Lindsey Graham stated on several occasions that we are talking about rape and murder, not just a humiliating experience. MSNBC just this afternoon showed an email from a viewer who stated that it was only humiliation after all and not torture (and the network did nothing to counter that point of view)

Sadly, there are only two things that a segment of the American public seems to be able to wrap their brains around - sex scandals and scandals/tragedies caught on tape.

Welcome to DU! :toast:

you are a disrupter for what it's worth. With that being said, these pictures should be documented. Whether they should be shown everywhere is a different story.

There are victims here, and like in rape cases, perhaps its better not to have pictures of them being victimized all over our 24 hour news service day in and day out just to prove to the world that America is fucked up.

this is war and violation of internationl law on a grand scale.

but there are victims involved - the ones that were tortured and suffered humiliation. I'm not sure either way whether they want their names and naked bodies floating around cnn etc as some american soldiers ridicule and dehumanize them not in front of the world. I don't know either way.

I think at some point people "get the picture" and more pictures aren't likely to changes the views of people on either side. As long as we keep talking about it and keep it in the forefront it will bbe a story. Whether more pictures are needed (or the rape videos) I think is debatable (which is what we are doing obviously).

Jawohl, Herr Oberst!

Throw those photos in the Memory Hole!

The showers were just for delousing -- the Jews were all resettled in the East, uh, they perished by accident in the War.

The only reason anyone cared about the abuse -- or even reported it, beyond one-liners -- is because of the photographs.

Not showing the photos will allow the Fascists to minimize their crimes -- and the complicity in the crimes that runs all the way to "Robert S." Rumsfeld's office.

America needs to see the photos of the crimes committed in our name -- we will only expiate our shame by facing it.

Otherwise, we're all "Good Germans" now.

then we're entitled to take whatever action we can for justice, and no matter who's involved, they will pay the price..Even the top honchos because they KNEW and did nothing! They'd prefer if it remained covert..Now they're caught w/ their pants down! If you don't want to look, close your eyes!

Half this fricking country thinks they were hazing pranks. We have to face what our country has done, just like the Germans had to face the ovens. We cannot forget what we have done, or it will be repeated. Actually, I'm sure its still going on right now. No major heads have rolled.

Yeah its unpleasant.

We have to be forced to see the beatings to death and rapes of prisoners if there is even a prayer of waking up the consciences of the sickos who vote in droves in this country.

this is still a "free" country - though if bush gets re-"elected" that will no longer be true. The photos must come out. I don't believe for a minute that all the photos and videos will come out right away. I hope there are some stand up soldiers and officers that will come forward with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

...of this brutality. Showing ALL the pictures/videos will demonstrate just how widespread this 'abuse' problem is in Iraq and other places. Showing a few pictures suggests a 'minor' problem. Showing thousands suggests a problem systemic in nature and sanctioned by those in command.

how did this get pass.....aaahhhhhhhhh I get it "True Democracy"

judge for ourselves what actually occurred. There can be no trusting of this administration (including its military) and its statements on what happened or what the photos and videos contain.

"...trust us,” (General) Miller told reporters in early May. “There were errors made. We have corrected those. We will make sure that they do not happen again.”

...there is something purient about this, something sort of demoralizing,...de-moralizing....as in destructive of morals, to be intrested in making visible this kind of degredation.,,,the of being grossed out and outraged.

I know I have seen enough.

Dumbshit's Grandfather Prescott said about the photos of all of the dead Jews, Gays, Gypsies, etc. This atrocity MUST be burnt into the mind of every man, woman AND child (after a certain age). If you don't want to look, fine, that is your choice and I, for one, have no problem with that (ignorance can be bliss...maybe); HOWEVER, this heinous activity is NOT isolated to but a "few" and these photos need to be splashed on the front pages of EVERY CONSERVATIVE ("librul media" being bullshit!) MEDIA NEWSPAPER, WEBSITE, TALK SHOW, etc. to let the world know that WE, THE PEOPLE OF THIS UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DO NOT, UNEQUIVOCALLY DO NOT, SUPPORT THESE ATROCITIES AND ARE OUTRAGED!

I am soooo sorry for the "yelling"...there are absolutely NO words to describe MY outrage and you can bet I'll be "speaking in caps" at every opportunity...at the grocery, the gas pump, the laundry, the doctor, at stop lights, you name it. We WILL take this further than the decent Germans who were surely as outraged as decent Americans are at these horrible things...we will speak out BEFORE it is too late. The choice is yours!

Jenn

Every photo and every video should be purged and brought forward for all to see. If not the propaganda and embellishment will drown America even more as a secret society. America is strong enough to face the truth. If not we have a dying Democracy

We must come clean and start a new beginning.

it appears some of his stuff is spewing onto the DU board, it's disgusting.

From Today's Rush Limbaugh Program....

RUSH: Look, folks, let's just cut to the chase here, okay? I've been trying to very slowly and gently maneuver all of you into now. Here's cut-to-the-chase time. We all know what goes on in war. We all know that what's in these pictures we've seen -- and we haven't seen pictures of death -- even this latest picture of the dog and the nude Iraqi, have you seen that one? A couple of Americans are holding it looks like a German shepherd, some kind of vicious big dog, dogs are barking, bow-wow (barking sounds), the Iraqi prisoner is cowering there in fear, he's all nude, and the picture captions "dogs attack Iraqi". No, the dog isn't attacking anybody, the dog is on a leash. The dog is scaring an Iraqi prisoner. (Gasping.) No! We're scaring them, too. Is that allowed in the Geneva Convention? We're scaring them with dogs?

Yes, my friends, we are. The dog didn't attack anybody, dog's not the attacking anybody, dog is on a leash, both of them are. I've seen the picture. So, yeah, I mean I'd be scared too if I were nude and I'd been committing crimes against Americans, now the Americans have me in their prison and a couple of dogs barking at me? Yeah, I might be a little scared. So what? It's war! We all know what goes on in war. And here's what's happened. And I don't know how many of you are part of this group. I'm not part of this group, but there are a significant number of Americans -- let's leave the press and the Dems out of this because they're acting political here, they're acting and so are a lot of people, a lot of people are acting. They have to act outraged and surprised because that's what you think is expected of you.



How many of you went out to social occasions over the weekend, and this subject, this story came up? And how many of you wanted to really say, "I don't see the big deal here. This is war. These are people that tried to kill Americans." But you didn't say it or some variation of that because you were afraid that you were the bunch of people would start yelling at you for being insensitive or coarse or crude or whatever. So you said what you thought you had to say in order to get along during the controversial situation that this conversation came up wherever you were. How many of you did that? Admit it to yourself. You don't have to raise your hands out there. We're not counting hands here. I want you to think about it. Because the fact of the matter is that's what I think most people are doing. This is where my optimism and faith in people of this country remains steadfast. I don't think most people are that outraged by it. Let's put it this way, the public outrage nowhere near matches what we watched on television on Friday and yesterday. Exhibited by these holier-than-thou sanctimonious elected officials who are themselves acting and saying what they think you, their voters, want them to say, and what you their voters expect to hear.

the naked guy in the pic got bitten - there are pics of that as well - blood on the floor and all.

the sound of scrubbing brushes in that car wash today.. :evilgrin:

If he saw the picture then didn't he read the article it was in that mentioned the Iraqi with bite marks?

That right there is enough to show why all the photos should be released. Such willful deception on this issue should not be possible!!!

(and I think it is) el Rushbo has to be setting records on the number of nooses around his neck...

to bear witness to what they have suffered. Don't bury your head in the sand, do you think that if you don't see the pictures or videos that it didn't happen??? :argh:

For a newbie that's odd

Whew. In another post I said I felt like I was wasting time and energy on this obviously injected "debate" but I was reminded that any effort towards what is true will lead everyone to the good that is there (Corny much? :) )

:yourock:

Remember?

We shall not be silent. Never. Never. Never ever again!

On edit: :loveya: - just wanted you to know that.

I'll just go vote for Bush and won't look at all those awful pictures. Can I have a cookie now?

Sheesh, some people...

still have their heads in the sand.

The mind immediately starts de-emphasizing these matters for many people, because they don't want to pay attention and don't want to feel guilty over not paying attention. Immediately, excuses pop up. The matter becomes unimportant to them as they convince themselves that it's a small matter.

Pictures are hard proof. Words can be dismissed as exxageration, but pictures show the event and there's no way to escape the facts within them. It forces people to acknowledge the horridness of this, hopefully moving them to act against what is happening in that country.

...American soldiers throwing a 14 year old boy with a broken arm to the ground and then laughing as he cried and wet his pants. I can't imagine anyone doing something like this...certainly not an American soldier. This is something a Nazi would do...humiliate someone that can't defend themselves.

- This adds a new perspective to this scandal. We now see that even CHILDREN didn't escape the stormtrooper tactics of Bush's* occupation. Children raped and brutalized. Screw this shit. EVERYTHING needs to be exposed and the guilty and their commanders charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity. And screw the apologists for making this sound like some minor abuse.

I for one would not want to stop at the conclusion that "something is very very wrong", would you?

Without pictures it does not hit home with people to the point where people want to do something about this something that is so very very wrong.