I spent an hour in hell this AM

Took my car in for a check. Two women were there discussing how they love Fox News...one lady was reading O'Lielly's book. I had Kevin Phillips book but removed the cover cause I couldn't stand looking at both Bush's photos. A man came in and was reading the paper and was outraged outraged by the attention they are giving to this prison thing.
The conversation quickly deteriorated into a bunch of obvious quotes of Limbag and Sean. I had to bite my tongue when the woman said "they keep forgetting 9-11." It is obvious they consider all Arabs or Muslims to be the same. My brother came in and rescued me. I really couldn't respond to the conversation because the woman and I belong to several organizations (we don't speak) and is the daughter-in-law of a friend (who has a completely different political perspective). It was dreadful.:puke:
Ijust heard Bush saying that we owe Rummy a debt of gratitude. :puke:
:puke:

so why did you keep yours shut. as long as we keep quiet and dont speak the truth it will not be heard

Courage up, everybody.

There's a reason polite conversation in a setting as you describe is supposed to avoid politics and religion. If they break the code, we've got to speak up.

or people who don't agree with them then you had every right to respond. I let nothing pass anymore, but almost always an educated reply that they can't respond to since their knowledge is so shallow that it is more than enough to shut them up. We are half the population or more, our voices should be heard also.

It is hard to argue with someone who knows nothing but fakes it.

was part of polite conversation.

I imagine politics wasn't part of polite conversation in Nazi Germany.

PB

That crack about 9/11 should have provoked the response that nobody's forgotten that 9/11 represented the biggest security lapse in US history, mostly because Bush and his gang were focused on Iraq instead of protecting the US!

I don't give a rip who they are. I speak up.

if they feel they have the right to pass on RNC propaganda, I have the right to f***ing CORRECT THEM.

Isn't it great to be an American?We can say what we want,when we want,and not be fearful.

You weren't in hell,you were just hearing another opinion.

Nothing wrong with that,is there?

...triggered daily.

I would liken it to having to listen to a pro-slavery advocate prior to the Civil War. It would make me want to hurl.

I feel exactly as you do.

And, can you believe it? -- there are some on DU who suggest that I should just shut up and keep my opinions to myself.

Really.

one of many things that are despicable.

Condoning torture -- or the mutilation of dead bodies -- is despicable.

Dancing and cheering in the streets when thousands of innocent people are killed -- despicable.

were killed was a selectively edited image of five or six people on a busy street.
I lost the old link after my hard disk crashed, but I once had a link to a German TV news video of "Palestinians dancing in the streets" about 9/11, the same clip that was replayed ad nauseam on CNN and Fox in September 2001.

The difference was that German TV showed the whole film, not just the carefully edited clip. The camera pulled back to show that the "celebrators" were five or six people being completely ignored by the rest of the people on the street.

In other words, it was a textbook case in how to lie with video editing.

Check out this link about the worldwide outpouring of sympathy for 9/11, including images from Arab countries.

http://www.september11news.com/InternationalImages.htm

I'm afraid, Lydia Leftcoast, that you are making an assumption here.

I do not know or care what was shown on CNN and Fox or on German TV.

What did you assume (without even bothering to ask me) that I was talking about????

Do you think that dancing and singing in the streets after the deaths of thousands of innocent people would ever NOT be despicable?

What are your views about editing tapes and images so as to incite hatred against a particular country or people? Despicable? Not despicable?

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone expressing them. But they shouldn't expect us to sit by silently anymore either. We are the patriots, plain and simple.

They are NEVER told the country is evenly divided. It's them vs a small group of liberal kooks, wackos and traitors.

I even heard Rush say one day that "nobody" votes Democratic anymore - this was not too long after 51 million people voted Democratic in the 2000 election. :eyes:

And I do have a problem with perpetuating lies!

NO IT'S NOT AN "OPINION" - IT'S THE FUCKING TRUTH!

An opinion would be something like "I like chocolate pudding".

911 HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ OR SADDAM! That's a FACT, not "opinion"!

Same with all the other bullshit they were spouting.

The right wing nuts are in power because we do not speak up as we should. We allow right wing nuts to feel comfortable to say what ever idiocy they want, while we simply keep quiet.

if you politely disagree with this woman?

Case in point:

RWWoman: "I think they are making too much of a big deal of this torture thing in the media"

You: "Well if you are the one suffering the torture . . ."

Her: "Don't you remember what they did on 9-11?"

You: "The Iraqis didn't do anything on 9-11. 9-11 was caused by a group of extremist terrorists called the Al-Queada, who were supported and hosted by the Taliban government of Afghanistan."

The key here is to stay calm and polite and refute what she says more than voicing your own opinions.

That is my reply whenever someone gets upset with me stating my opinion.

I follow it up with the saying that the Holocuast didn't happen because there so many bad Germans, it's that too many good Germans didn't speak out against it.

That is the over arching story of human history, isn't it?

It's always been the few progressives that spoke out against the tyranny of the powerfull, regardless of the consequences.

It is something to be proud of, and to take power from.

(Sorry, I just watched Ghandi this weekend. I might still be delusional.)

For example, when a Iraq/9-11 connection is mentioned, one can become a bit bewildered and say "but, where did you hear they were connected?" In fact, the Bush regime has officially denied it, but they keep dropping phrases like "since 9/11".

Under the conditions you describe, I would have had a hard time keeping silent; they brought it up. But I would fight the urge to chime in with "I can't believe you idiots keep buying that fascist tripe." Even if it's true.

n/t

that not everybody agrees with them, and which could make you feel better, especially if you say it with an incredulous smile:

At a pause in the conversation, interject "You don't still take him seriously, do you?" (Tra la)

If they come back with anything at all, just keep that tone up, "as in "Oh, my, it just seems like he can't do anything right!"

One way to get out of a loop like this is to shake your head and say, "Oh, dear. I'm afraid you've been misinformed."

The key to doing it right is to keep it short and simple; and to smile while you're saying it.

It's very tempting to go into some voting outrage you've learned from Greg Palast, or some nefarious business deal you read in Kevin Phillips' book, but stay away from the details.

Our side has GOT to get this guy thought of as the loser he is, so all the tough, manly guys and their dutiful wives will be embarrassed to associate themselves with him.

"Gee, I'd really hate it if my kid got tortured
like that."

Then walk away.

Good luck breaking through the barrier, those poor people have been exposed to the echo chamber for far too long.

with someone I work with.

He was spewing all the right wing talking points. He was totally convinced that all Muslims were out to take over America and turn us into Muslims. Of course, all Arabs are terrorists, etc... I mentioned that I never actually met that many Arabs and all of the ones I had know personally were really, really nice people. At the least, I have never had one try to turn me into a Muslim. Actually, it seems to me that it's the Xians who want to turn everyone into fundies.

Then today at lunch, the two fellows behind me were going on about Iraq. It was weird, cause on one hand they were starting to get it, but on the other they were still trying to reconcile it with the right-wing propaganda that they had bought into.

I think if you are going to try to engage these sorts of folks in public, please try to be gentle. This is a very, very confusing time for a lot of people. For most of these people their only source of news is FAUX and/or Rush? Then they go to church, and they are told that Bu$h is probably the second coming and anointed by god to take us through this difficult time.

Now, everything they believe in is being destroyed. They bought into the Bu$h myth, hook, line and sinker and to watch it all falling apart will be a very difficult experience for the true believers. Heck, it's still hard for folks like us to wrap our brains around this insanity. How is it possible in just 3 years, America would turn into a fascist state? I knew it would be bad, but I didn't think it could be this bad and getting worse. Imagine what a shock some of this stuff is for a true Bu$hbot?

The scary thing is that some of these folks may become violent as a result. Their first reaction is to hang onto their beliefs and defend them for dear life. I've even had people go off on me in public and get real scary. When someone gets like this, it is not possible to rationalize with them anymore. At this point, it is best to back down and end the conversation.

Good luck, whatever you decide next time and I hope you don't get the Statesboro Blues.

(Hope that's not too obscure a reference to your screen name?)

I would of told them "Shame on You"

You dishonor all who had served honorably :grr:

Then I would blasted them with truth the whole time I
was there .

Enough is Enough !

Sometimes there is more at stake, on a personal level, for those that speak up, than for those living in a larger liberal place. Your safety, your kids' safety, your livelihood...sometimes you have to choose your battles, timing carefully.

says who?

Especially since they brought the subject up in front of you. People have GOT to start speaking out. If anyone gets offended, then TOO BAD.

I hear that crap more frequently than you would think possible.

However, lately, it has toned down and rather than bushbashing, I hear very little. When it is brought up (rarely) they want to change the subject pretty quickly.

that they were lying to the public. Amazingly, others in the waiting room joined me and we drowned out the Rush and Faux talking points with liberal ones. I was pleasantly surprised because I was expecting to be called unAmerican and communist.

SPEAK UP and you might be pleasantly surprised by others who agree with you but are also afraid of speaking out until they hear someone else do it.

...the Repukes are counting on us always being silent...the more of us who speak out the more it gives courage to those who are afraid to voice their feelings!!

In the spring of 1991, I was on a plane to Hawaii, when the flight attendant struck up a conversation with the Middle Eastern couple sitting in front of me.

She asked them if they were from Iraq. No, they told her, they were from Iran. Well, her geography wasn't too good, evidently, because she continued, "I didn't think that Kuwait war was right, sending all those kids over there to die for some king, but I kept my mouth shut, because I was the only one who felt that way."

I spoke up, "You weren't the only one who felt that way."

Another person nearby said, "I was against the war, too."

"So was I."

It turned out that at least half the people within earshot had been against the Gulf War. This makes you wonder about the "90% approval ratings" we always heard about.

Last year on the day the statue of Saddam came down, I was in a meeting and several of the people there were exulting over the "victory" and cheering our military power over Iraq. I felt overwhelmed and kept quiet as long as I could, and then I said something to the effect of, "Well, since they're claiming we've won this war, then I'm all for getting our kids out of there and bringing them home, out of harm's way, right now." Another woman in the group immediately spoke up and said, "That's exactly how I feel."

I live in Alabama and I hear right winger comments EVERY SINGLE DAY. People just can't comprehend anyone having a different view, and they feel perfectly safe assuming you agree with their opinions. Most of the time I let it go. When I do have to say something, I try to do it respectfully. But if I state my views and someone attacks me, all bets are off.

I went to a Kentucky Derby event, stepped outside for a smoke and overheard two ladies discussing Dimbo's War and what it meant for them.

Dimbo didn't escape the critisim that FAUX and Rush "news" fails to mention.

correcting them, making assertions for their "arguments".

I'd have CERTAINLY asked what the HELL Sept. 11 has to do with the war in Iraq and WHO exactly has forgottten it? That is one of the STUPIDEST things I hear people say.

I would have probably ended up in a fist fight or something very unladylike. Then the cops would have been called, then I would have been arrested (and hopefully them, too).

Ah well.

Don't bite your tongue. What's the worst that can happen? (Besides the fist fight scenario! LOL!)

Speak up woman!

Also you NEED to let them know not everyone feels that way. By sitting silently you are assenting. Too, there may have been someone in earshot who feels the way YOU do and who would have been encouraged by your words. That's why I have the bumper stickers I do--not to piss off bush supporters, but to give hope to all those in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area who AREN'T bush supporters!

I was in my dermatologist's waiting room when a well-known Republican and his equally well-known and repulsive Repug wife came in. Imagine my surprise when she pulls out a right-wing magazine of some sort and decides to read to him--aloud! The topic was abortion and how Bush was a "godly" man, etc., etc., etc. After about ten minutes of this torture, I exploded and informed them that this was a public waiting room and that believe it or not, that not everyone in that waiting room shared their political or religious beliefs and I, for one, would very much appreciate it if they could conduct their "reading" somewhere else. Several people smiled at me and one said, "Thank you." The repugs looked shocked that not everyone shared their political beliefs. But they did shut up. Not surprisingly, I was called back to the doctor's office very soon after my little outburst. Hey--I silenced the Repugs and I found an effective way to see the doctor a whole lot quicker than normal! It was a win-win!