As bad as the pictures are, they will not change much

The right has already decided that they would help W hide the body, and give him an alibi.

The left is in the precarious (as always)position of "being on the side of" criminals. The rightwingers see and will always see "people behind bars" as being guilty (of something) before they even have a trial..in fact, they don't even NEED a trial.. If the "good guys" put them behind bars, they MUST be bad, so anything that happens to them is deserved..

The 30 % who will follow w over a cliff, have no empathy, compassion or even decency, so they see nothing wrong with photos or videos of abuse.

The more we rail against them, the more they close ranks about little w.It's not HIS fault..just like 9/11 was not his fault..nor was anything bad that happens during his term.

They will always bear a grudge against the Iraqis for not falling prostrate before our occupying army, and worshiping us as saviours..just like w said they would. ..That fact alone makes them worthy of torturing. They messed up his photo-ops..

At the basest level ( an they ARE base), it's still about guns,gays, god and "wimmin's" innards...They will forgive him anything, as long as he says the right words on those subjects..The war (and anymore that he cares to start) are ok with them because they are immature people who cannot hold complicated thoughts in their little brains.

Those of us who actually believe in what we used to stand for as a nation, will just have to lump it.

The laws that the rest of us try to uphold are of little consequence to them. They are the type of people who do not care about liberty and freedom, unless it is to brandish their guns,tell others how to live their private lives, or to keep women and minorities in their place..

We rock their petty little world, when we suggest that rights are for everyone...not just the chosen few.

even to satisfy our own consciences. WE DID NOT FIGHT ENOUGH WHEN THE SUPREME COURT STOLE THE ELECTION IN 2000. We allowed this sickness and crime source loose on the world.
It is our duty to not keep quiet.

traction in the media..:(

THEY should be waving OUR banner, but they are not :(

i'm scared, SCD. scared b/c i work in an international environment, and i don't like what i'm hearing. the world will not forgive us for this, and we won't be allowed to stay in our media bubble forever.

there are soooooo many things a single nation, for example china, could do to put us in a world of hurt.

we have a few Indians working at my company and from what they are telling me they are absolutely shocked by what they are seeing. A few of them are considering heading home rather than renewing work visas. This has caused a major shift in the world's perception of America and as much as we like to think that everyone else depends upon the US, that fact can change quickly.

While there was the semblance of a moral high-ground (overthrow the dicatator yada yada yada), Bush could get away with it. Not now and I fear that the damage could literally take generations to repair.

the last soul in Iraq that was willing to give us a chance.

Iraq is going to go down in flames, and with it BushCo.

I've noticed that among people I've tried to discuss it with. So sad. Disturbing to live in a country with so many people who are so seriously amoral.

much of what you say is right. No one is going to insist that Bush leave. Whatever the reason, is beyond me. The media, and their salaries, the corporations and their investments and everything but a conscience or a sense of the "right thing to do"

I feel also, that the people are not inclined to make a fuss either.

If there were an outrage, there would be some hope

There is no outrage--there is mere complacency and acceptance and fear.

I canot blame those who would leave this country out of disgust, or even out of fear for their own families. To stay and fight for the ideal? What on earth is there to fight with? It seems there is only a handful of people willing to scream out at the top of their lungs.

Otherwise all we get is a cover up and enables Bush. Kerry is also an enabler and that is the biggest disappointment.

We are in a fascist, practically a dictatorship where all sorts of crimes have been committeed and no one is pursued--they are simply allowed to be criminals, and brag about it.

Cheney, Lay, and too many to list here.

Air America is a breath of fresh air--I do hope it continues--it is at least a small voice crying in outrage. There are few--far to few, willing to tell the truth and they reach few.

This is indeed a disgrace,a nd we have been jerked around by the Straussian, Machiavellian Mayberries--they rule over us.

Nothing has been successful in outing them and, incredibly, NO ONE seems to want to oust them or even expose them.

the shovels.. The people like us, who are concerned, look for all the information we can find, but the 40% of the public who frets over who won Survivor, don't care one way or another..They do nto get the connection, because the media they DO see, persuades them that it's no "biggie"..

It's our 30%....going head to head with their 30%...and the sad fact is, that they control the access to the other 40% that we both need :(

but I'm amazed at how little it bothers people and some think they deserve torture because they are "terrorists". I don't recognize this country much anymore. I don't know whether just to accept it and do my best or.......? Just don't know but we can't beat this mindset. The only thing that will change things is if there are protests in the streets and they end up killing protesters again like at Kent State.

as a "potential terrorist"..deserving of torture .."to make them tell what they know".. What they really know is ..what day of the week they go shopping...what time their favorite tv show is on...how old their children are...where their parents live.. 99.9999999% have no knowledge of terrorism....their only "crime" is in not being white and english speaking....

THAT'S the sad truth about why they are being tortured..

Just two errands in Santa Monica this morning (one to the DMV and the other to take my car to the shop) and all I encountered were people (male, female, white, black, asian) who have totally had it with the bushies. Such disgust I noticed. I didn't need to convince anybody. They were already there.

It was such reinforcement I cannot tell ya. I came home energized, and actually somewhat hopeful. Every one of them was almost overcome with revulsion.

If you haven't already, read The Undiscovered Self.


great analysis of the kool-aid drinkers, SCD

is a great book.
Amazing how appropriate it is to these times, isn't it?

The effects of those pictures on a national scale might be in accord with your views. However, on the world stage we have lost the respect of many, many people.

In reality though this latest incident is only one of many such perpetrated upon third world folks by our military and our intelligence services. We run a "proud" institution known as the School of the Americas wherein torture techniques have been taught to many of this hemispheres baddies by our military.

but...they do not.. They do bear the consequences, though.. I truly think that the rest of the world knows that he "stole" the last one, and they are waiting patiently for us to "fix" things.. If we do NOT, though, all bets are off..

THAT'S the really scary part.. If he is even close, it will appear to the rest of the world, that we are not the people we tell them we are ..

Most people around the world really do not understand how the electoral system works ( do we??)...and they will not understand again if Bush manages to get back in .

With voter apathy around 60% in many elections I see no sea change because of these photos of only the latest and most public of our military's transgressions.

In order to get people involved they must be given a choice, they must be energised, they must be awakened and their pessimism combated with vigor. Anyone note any candidate doing such?

These photos are just so completely appalling I have to believe they will create a sea-change. It might not happen overnight, but it will happen.

on the radar.. Our country has always been good at covering up..and explaining.. As bad as My Lai was, it did not seem to have changed all that much..policy wise..did it??

americans, even educated "nice" americans, are fed a steady diet of sex and horror, often together. this is a video game to many, just as chimpy is a 'moral leader,' and i'm unsure why you believe these photos will change that.

I have to believe that moral revulsion will overcome a steady diet of sex and horror.
I have to believe that we have advanced and continue to advance past savagery.

It's not easy to believe, I agree.