So what do you think?

innocent. They are not the enemy.

That family members of "high level" or important baath party members are subject to the same torture/abuse/interrogation/detention even if they are innocent....simply to be associated by family is guilt enough.

Do not try to impress me that these are just isolated cases hardly worthy of mention. Systemic, blatent torture/abuse that was "enabled" by a culture of permissiveness that the administration is willing to do whatever it takes to win.

How can we "win" now? What does that mean? I cannot visualize what that scenario would entail, when firmly looking at the reality on the ground today.

Indeed.

Yeah, breaking a teenager down by raping him, MAY gain you a snippet of information, or imprisoning the female relative of a Baath party member *might* cause them to give themselves up, but if they think they will prevent further violence by merely scaring people that they have the awful power to do such things -- they are mistaken.

What they will achieve in the long run, and on a massive scale, is the desire for vengence. In an honor-based society, vengence is the only address to the violation for honor. Otherwise, one has lost face, and has lost one's identity and all self- and community worth.

Tragically, no amount of apologies or reparations can address these outrages on the honor of Iraqis -- it can only be redressed with vengence and violence. Offering financial reparation is actually a further insult.

The Bushistas cannot turn this around -- it is impossible.

The only way we can hope to prevail in this war and survive as a credible leader in the world is to demonstrate our moral leadership by impeaching Bush et al and indicting them for war crimes. Despite the very real strategic advantage this democratic action would being about, it is highly unlikely to occur -- and thus we must be prepared to accept the consequences of allowing Bush to remain in power and influence.

Bush will NEVER take responsibility for this mess. As conditions inevitably deteriorate, he will blame the people who refused to present a "united front" and "lacked resolve" when they were appalled by the photos and stories coming out of Iraq. That will be the latest excuse for how badly things are going, on the heels of the former one, which declared that the appearance of things going to hell in Iraq is merely an illusion fostered by the LIEbral press, and that 99% of Iraq is 100% behind the American occupation.