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bushgottago Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 07:59 PM
Original message
Orange Jumpsuits - Yellow Walls - Something not right about beheading
OK - who noticed this?

The orange jumpsuit? Have you ever seem American prisoners of Iraqi captors in orange jumpsuits? I never have. But - one of the pictures of the Iraqi prisoners shows an orange jumpsuit on the floor next to the naked bodies.

Then - the yellow walls. The same yellow walls in Abu Ghraib prison.

The terrorists are white - they are fat - and they look like Americans. At the end when they yell - they sound like Americans. When they speak they sound like arabic isn't their native language.

So - my gut says that this is not what it appears to be. It looks like it is staged to look like a terrorist execution.

ok - I know it sounds tin foil hat - but - think it through. Orange jumpsuit - that's American.

BTW - don't watch the video. I saw it - and - don't watch it.
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angryinoville Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm with you...
Whu wouldn't they stage this? It's almost perfect. This is the kind of thing that'll motivate people to want to continue this farce of a war on terra
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. My guess about the orange jumpsuit
He was detained by the US for a while. His parents sued the government and the next day, they let him go.

My theory is that he never got a chance to change clothes. He's still wearing the same jumpsuit from the US prison.

There are a lot of things that don't make sense here.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. He was released on the 6th
Last heard from on the 9th, so it's unlikely he was wearing the jumpsuit when snatched.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. That would be an explanation of a couple of things
I wondered about the US imprisonment and the orange jumpsuit, too. I don't think they'd release him with the jumpsuit, though. Government property.

Fiction time: If I were writing a novel, I'd create a character like that. A peace guy, wanting to bridge gaps. He gets arrested by the US, put into one of our prisons, and sees something. They know he won't be quiet. Their parents know where he is, so he can't disappear without questions.

At the same time, they need a diversion from other issues. So they pretend to be the enemy and whack him.

Alternate scenario-- let's say it isn't the US government, but a renegade group. He was in their custody, they bought drugs or killed someone, and it got taped, and this guy witnessed it, and the whole mess is on the verge of going before Capitol Hill.

I don't believe either scenario, it's just one of those things I think of. Reasons I don't believe it: the gov't wouldn't be dumb enough to plan this and do it in the orange jumpsuit in the Abu Graib prison. A group of misfits might, but not anyone official.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. Supposedly this guy was pro-war and pro-Bush.
It was his family that opposed the war.

Anyone have more info on this? It makes sense, since a person opposed to the war would probably not go work for the occupation, but I haven't seen anything definite on this.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. lookit this picture..
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Elbowroom Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. which pic?
which pic shows the orange jumpsuit on the floor?
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Where did you see the video? I would view it if big daddy would let me.
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bushgottago Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Don't watch the video
Trust me - I saw it!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Where did you se it?
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've heard there are time discrepencys in the video too.
nt
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
37. There are definite drop outs at key areas
No question about that. It seems as if the camera operator dropped the camera or something right at the crucial moment.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. IMHO Chalabi's people did it. n/t
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Sounds about right.
They went for 1 or 2 layers deep. Folks on this board are already several beyond that. It will work though. For a while anyway. Rush and Hannity will get the troops going tomorrow.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
39. That seems most likely
More than any other scenario, this is the one that's most plausible.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Prison walls
It could be standard issue paint for government buildings or prisons. There are a lot of those around, I imagine.

I wondered about those things, too.

I haven't seen the tape, but in the picture of him on the floor before the men, he doesn't look terrified. Is that true on the tape, or just an illusion from the picture?
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mseang Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. Me too...
I thought it was kind of odd as well, but I brushed it off. I noticed that the hands of the "terrorists" looked white and the orange jumpsuit was definitely weird.

I remember watching the Daniel Pearle video and this one was significantly different. It just didn't seem authentic. They were screaming like they were at an NFL game not a terrorist execution. In the Daniel Pearle video I believe the terrorists kept shouting things in Arabic, not just screaming.

I certainly hope this is just my inability to trust our Idiot in Chief and his accomplices.
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bushgottago Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Yes - it was American style screaming
I noticed that too. Like a football game. And - is the guy on the right wearing Tennis Shoes?
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
43. But, but, but. . . .
On another thread, the argument for the murderers being American was that they had mannerisms and body language too Western, only now people here are saying Danny Pearl's murderers were acting like Americans and not like Nick Berg's murderers. . . .

Geez, doesn't anyone see how ridiculous this is?

How many of the people posting this shit are experts in body language? Or is it just "gut feeling" that tells you the murderers are exhibiting western European mannerisms? (Never mind that there are plenty of Middle Eastern people who have spent much time in Western Europe. . . . . ) How many are experts in Arabic and its various dialects?

Most of the people insisting the murderers are American because they have WHITE SKIN seem to be as close-minded as any freeper who denies the facts about tax cuts and abstinence-only sex education:

MANY MIDDLE EASTERN PEOPLE HAVE VERY LIGHT SKIN, GET IT? Light skin does not make these people Americans or even tools of the American CIA or anything else.

Have any of you ever seen the famous photograph by Steve McCurry of "the Afghan girl," taken back in the 80s? (He went back to Afghanistan a couple years ago and actually managed to find her; the special was re-run the past Sunday evening, but I digress.) She has green eyes.

You're seeing and believing what you want to see and believe and are in absolute denial of even the POSSIBILITY that the truth could be something else.

I'm not suggesting that we not question what happened. I'm not saying it's not possible that the BFEE had a hand in this. But I am suggesting that we at least consider that there ARE OTHER POSSIBILITIES, like maybe that shit happens?

rant over, for a minute or two
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pineapple_princess Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:51 PM
Original message
Most ironic part of the Pearl video mention here is...
it was recently revealed during the trial that the execution portion was fake. They screwed up and shut the camera off so they reenacted the actual decapitation portion afterward when they realized their mistake.
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. Can someone post a picture from the tape and a picture from the prison?
For comparison?
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bushgottago Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
16. Do I see kevlar vests?
Looking at the picture on msnbc - and I see the terrorist wearing kevlar vests!!!! WTF?

Look close clearly showing on 3 of them!
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salonghorn70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. What are kevlar vests?
don't know what that is
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Bulletproof
Kevlar armor.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Bullet proof vests
for lack of a better description
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bushgottago Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Bullet Proof Vests !!!
Look at the VESTS !!!


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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. What about them?
If they're Kevlar, they're useless, maybe big enough to protect your pack of smokes, old WhiteHat is wide open for a heart shot. I doubt they're bulletproof vests, maybe ammo pouches.

But, what if they were? What the hey has got you all excited about them?
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bushgottago Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I'm excited about them because ...
Americans wear them - not terrorists. These are AMERICANS doing the beheading !!!!
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Naw
If vests are available and they felt they needed them, they'd wear them. There's no standard fashion ensemble for terrorists. Again though, those don't look like kevlar vests.
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KC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #33
48. With all the
Americans that have been killed, it wouldn't be hard for them
to take these vests off of a dead soldier.

KC
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KC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
47. The
person on the left looks like a woman to me.


KC
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narcjen Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. Orange jumpsuit

is something the FBI would make prisoners wear, not Arabs.

ndeed very suspicious.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
18. Yes that is some sick stuff. Very hard to watch.
(nt)
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jo35042 Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. Oh my gosh!!! Thank you.
I havent even seen the entire video and my mind was already onto the possibility of foul play (not of the Arab kind).
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keithyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
24. According to the boy's father, he was picked up by Americans and held
Then supposedly he was released. Maybe he was released in the orange jumpsuit? If so, it still bodes ill for the American military. If they had him, why did they release him in a orange jumpsuit? But you sure are sharp. Send you observations to the media and see what comes of it.

The news reports all stated that the voice was not Zawkari's (sp) and the accent was not Iraqi. There is much more here than meets the eye.
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keithyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. If Al-qaeda didn't do this, they will shortly let the world know.
If, by tomorrow, there is no refutation of this incident, feel certain they are responsible.
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Elbowroom Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
27. are they on a padded mat?
Edited on Tue May-11-04 09:06 PM by Elbowroom
somebody needs to i.d. the matting they are standing on
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bushgottago Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. good point!
What kind of matting is that?
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
29. Those are some very well fed Iraqis
Almost every Iraqi I've seen for the last year has been thin, on the edge of malnourishment. Sure, there were exceptions, but every damn one of those guys is stocky.

As someone else has pointed out, if this is not authentic, I would expect a disavowal by Al Qaeda -- unless... they're being paid off to take the blame for it? How deep do the double-crosses go?

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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
30. I can't watch it, but
am suspicious of EVERYTHING I read and hear. The fact that he was in military custody makes me even more wary. I'm reached my blood and gore overload, all this insane shit our whacked out regime has started is beyond belief. I may need to take a mental vacation for awhile.
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TroubleMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
31. THERE IS NO BLOOD .... ANYWHERE!!!!

see my post in the other topic...


Damn I hate doing this...it just doesn't seem right to question the voracity of the video, but I have to.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. True that
I don't recall blood either. Fuck, I'm not anxious to re-view the thing to find out.
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imax2268 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. you know...that is a good point...
I watched the video...as much as I could stand of it...and I don't recall seeing a whole lot of blood...and I'm sorry but if that kid was in any kind of panic or nervous...his heart would be racing...wouldn't the blood be shooting out(sorry not to be gross, no disrepect either)...the matting on the floor...the tennis shoes...the awkward stances...the timing of the whole thing...

it just seems a bit odd to me...

tin foil hat time...?
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ObaMania Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. A friend of mine who watched it...
.. while I turned my head said there was blood while they were doing the cut.

He did find it curious though, that there was none dripping as they held the head up.

Makes me sick to even think about it.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. There was
a pool of blood flowed from his neck as those assholes made the cut.
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TroubleMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. I watched it several times and zoomed in; I didn't see a pool

I didn't see a pool of blood. There was a shadow on the ground which moved at the same time the guy who did the cutting moved.

I still don't think our government did this....those guys were too chubby to be black ops guys.

I just think they killed him, and then for dramatic effect or insulting effect, they filmed a beheading after he was dead and they already cut a good portion off (the tape jumps in time).
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. I just watched it again...
Edited on Wed May-12-04 02:00 AM by FDRrocks
There is definately blood pouring out that poor guys throath. No duoubt about it. Watch the figures above him, to relate the shadows, and watch the pool of blood flowing from that mans body.

Whoever di this is SICK. SICK. SICK. For thier sake, I hope REAL justice deals them a better hand.

edit: At first the expected amount of blood is obscured... but soon after the camera zooms in and you can see the blood on the floor... no matter what way the murderers move.

That's blood, it's horrific that humans do this to each other in the name of God.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. There is no blood in the video?
If it is an authentic beheading, there should be blood gushing like a fountain from the severed jugular vein and arteries in the neck.

There is no blood? That is very strange.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Nah, there's blood alright
It drains out like all hell when they start cutting his neck.

It was a goddam butchery, like a primative would slaughter a pig, nothing less.
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keithyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
50. The plot gets thicker!!
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
51. i agree it looks and feels like Abu Ghairb...very very stinky and they
Edited on Wed May-12-04 08:43 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
are scrubbing all early articles from web about the Berg family filing suit against Rumsfeld and berg's being in custody of both the CPA and US ...i smell dastardly deeds

this one was origionally posted just 6 hours ago on Batlimore Sun site and it's been scrubbed in just 5 hours!

Captors behead civilian worker: Businessman from Pa. is executed on video; Revenge for prison abuses; Chief plotter of attacks on Americans is blamed
By Scott Shane and Lane Harvey Brown
Sun National Staff
Originally published May 12, 2004

A 26-year-old Pennsylvania businessman in Iraq to help with reconstruction was kidnapped and beheaded by Islamic militants who said they were avenging U.S. soldiers' mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, according to a gruesome video of the murder posted yesterday on the Web site of a militant group tied to al-Qaida.

The video attributed the killing of Nick Berg to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who has emerged as a leading plotter of terrorist attacks on Americans and their allies in Iraq and elsewhere.

A title on the videotape said: "Sheik Abu Musab Zarqawi executes an American with his own hands and promises Bush more."

The killing of Berg was denounced by President Bush, whose spokesman said it showed "the true nature of the enemies of freedom," and by his Democratic rival for the presidency, Sen. John Kerry, who said "America stands together" against terrorists.

News of the beheading left senators at a hearing on the abuse of Iraqi prisoners "in a virtual state of shock," said Virginia Sen. John W. Warner. Some senators had earlier expressed the fear that photos of naked prisoners being humiliated by U.S. soldiers could spark retaliation against American hostages.

Family and friends described Berg as an adventurous small businessman who had started a company, Prometheus Methods Tower Service, for which he climbed radio towers in the Philadelphia area to make repairs and install lights.

He had a humanitarian streak and had traveled to Kenya and Ghana, where he purchased a $900 brick-making press for a village, his family told reporters.

Looking for work

A supporter of the American invasion of Iraq, Berg decided to travel independently there earlier this year in search of work repairing radio station antennas and other communications equipment. He had disappeared April 9 after telling his family he was looking for a safe way to return to the United States.

His body was found Saturday near a highway overpass in the northern city of Mosul.

Berg had decided to abandon the search for work after being detained by Iraqi police late March 24 in Mosul. On March 30, FBI agents visited his parents, Michael and Suzanne Berg of West Chester, Pa., to tell them Nick Berg was jailed in Iraq and to establish the reason for his presence in that country.

But Berg continued to be held by decision of the U.S. military, possibly because of uncertainty about whether his identity had been stolen by someone else, his parents said in recent media interviews.

Berg's parents filed a federal lawsuit April 5 against Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld demanding their son's release. He was freed the next day, according to Alfred A. Gollatz, the attorney who handled the case.

Father blames delay

In an interview yesterday with public radio station WBUR in Boston, Michael Berg said he blames the U.S. government in part for his son's death. If he had not been held incommunicado for nearly two weeks, he could have left Iraq safely, Michael Berg said.

"We could have gotten him out of there before the hostilities escalated," he told the radio station. "I still hold responsible.

"But it goes further than Donald Rumsfeld. It's the whole Patriot Act. It's the whole feeling of this country right now that rights don't matter anymore because there are terrorists about."

In the video footage, posted on the Web site of the terrorist group Ansar al-Islam, Nick Berg, dressed in an orange jumpsuit and with his hands bound, sits on the floor in front of five men wearing head scarves and masks.

In a quiet voice, he introduces himself: "My name is Nick Berg. My father's name is Michael. My mother's name is Suzanne. I have a brother and sister, David and Sara. I live in ... Philadelphia."

Then one of the masked militants reads a statement linking Berg's fate to the detainees in Abu Ghraib prison.

"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage for some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused," the man says.

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

Then the men are shown pushing Berg down. They call out "Allahu akbar!" - God is great - as their victim screams and one draws a large knife from his shirt and uses it to cut off Berg's head, which he then holds up for the camera.

Other taped killing

The grisly killing and its recording on video resembled the decapitation of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl by kidnappers in Pakistan in 2002. U.S. officials reportedly believe that murder was carried out by Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the al-Qaida leader accused of plotting the 9/11 attacks, who was captured last year.

If Zarqawi planned or committed Berg's murder, it is only the latest evidence of his growing significance as a terrorist organizer, said Jonathan Schanzer, an expert on militant Islamic movements at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

Born in Jordan, Zarqawi, 37, trained and fought in Afghanistan with the mujahedeen who battled Soviet troops in the 1980s. He was subsequently jailed for a time in Jordan for radical activities, Schanzer said.

In recent years, Zarqawi was associated with Ansar al-Islam (Supporters of Islam), a militant group with a mountain base in the Kurdish north of Iraq. U.S. forces destroyed the camp and killed about 200 fighters, but some militants fled to Iran and have returned to Iraq to fight, said Schanzer, who spoke with Ansar detainees during a trip to Iraq in January.

Zarqawi has been tied to the murder of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan and to major bombings in Iraq as well as Saudi Arabia and Turkey, Schanzer said.

"This is a man with a deep portfolio of terrorist attacks and people he can call on to help him," Schanzer said. "What this reminds me of is bin Laden in the mid-1990s."

In a 17-page letter to al-Qaida leaders on a computer disk intercepted from a courier in January, Zarqawi proposed trying to start a civil war in Iraq.

The letter called Americans "the biggest cowards that God has created and the easiest target."

Energetic, idealistic

Neighbors and friends described Nick Berg, who studied engineering at Cornell University but left before graduating, as an energetic and idealistic man who had gone to Iraq against the wishes of his parents.

Michael DiBartolomeo, principal of Henderson High School when Berg graduated in 1996, remembered him yesterday as "one of those really good kids." He played saxophone in the marching band, winning an award for his musical achievements, and participated in the Science Olympiad.

Bruce Hauser, a retired chemist who has lived next door to the Bergs for 23 years in the quiet, middle-class neighborhood 30 miles from Philadelphia, said Nick was an inquisitive child who grew up playing baseball in the back yard.

He said he was not surprised to hear that Nick Berg had gone to Iraq to help with reconstruction: "That's just the way Nick was."

Hauser said the parents and siblings were shattered "not only because he died, but the way he died is very devastating."

"Nick was a gentleman, always asking about my family," said neighbor John Trama, a retired science teacher. "He was ambitious. He had a business and it was a unique business."

'You get infuriated'

Trama said that when he heard the news of Nick Berg's death yesterday on the radio, it brought back the same feeling of rage and helplessness he recalled from Sept. 11, 2001.

"You get infuriated," he said. "You want to do something about it, but you just feel trapped."

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