"Where's the liberal outrage over the beheading?"

That is the new repig talking point I have been reading all over the net. "The libruls were quick to jump all over the Iraqi torture story, but not for the american that was beheaded..." I fucking hate that shit. What more can we do than say how disgusted we are about it and offer condolences to his family?

As far as I am concerned it is an apples and oranges situation. We are not in control of the terrorist. We know that they are animals. The best thing we can do is not stoop to their level.

On the other hand, we are in control of the MP's. We can arrest and punish them easily. We are supposed to hold the moral high ground, and the pictures show that we no longer can. We are outraged at them because they have given the Iraqis even more reason to believe that we are no better than Saddam.

Why do the repigs have such a hard time making the distinction?

And they accuse US of using the Iraqi torture pics as political talking points to make the other side look bad while they use this tragedy to further justify why we just need to blow the living shit out of everyone in Iraq..

but views them as separate issues. Terrorists act like terrorists, where is the surprise there? The point to the whole exercise in Iraq is that we are supposed to be better than terrorists.

Don't give me the crap that there is an investigation underway and that's what makes us better. The talking points from the Republicans yesterday were all about how "a very few" soldiers acted in a way to make America look bad. Ignoring that we had made no efforts, until we were caught, to comply with the Geneva convention.

The other talking point being introduced is that this is Clinton's fault (shocking, huh?) for cutting the military. Pleezzze, if Rummy weren't more interested in war windfall for the extremely wealthy he wouldn't have outsourced jobs which should be within the chain of command. Rummy hasn't been fighting for more manpower in the military. Rummy sent the message that the rules don't apply to us.

However, it doesn't excuse anything...

Too accept a cycle of violence as the status quo is to somehow be complicit in it...

Stop the violence now and bring the troops home!!!

and basically said it's a "you can't win" situation with right-wingers. You can't win...

only sad.

I don't feel outrage or any desire to "nuke Iraq," but I do feel very sad for the family.

The original poster did make some very good points regarding what we can and cannot control. We can control the direction that our troops are taking, and I'd like to see them on a boat heading in a westerly direction.

The stupid American officers that fed the poor privates the patriotic bullshit. The stupid al Qaeda that thinks they know the American psyche. The stupid American military that thinks they know the Iraqi psyche. It's all a bunch of horse shit. We need to get out and we need to get out now. It is VERY, VERY sad.

all you can do is shake your head.

:(

American public. They have another think coming.

well said

nuking our *enemies.* Reasoned discourse and perspective don't mean anything to the freeps.

The Iraqis are NOT terrorists. They may have us terrified, but that is not the same thing. They did NOT come to our country and kill us. WE went to THEIR country and killed THEM.

By calling them "terrorists" and "animals," how the hell are we in any way better than BushCo?

Let me put it this way: they have the right to do any damn thing they please with any one of us they catch. WE ARE INVADERS. WE ARE OCCUPYING THEIR NATION. WE ARE THE BAD GUYS.

They killed Berg without torturing him first? That was a demonstration of their humaneness. It could have been MUCH worse. It WILL get MUCH worse.

I don't think you are in a position to condemn the Republicans for not be able to make distinctions when you clearly can't do it yourself.

You know what Iraqi history books will call your "terrorists"? Patriots. Freedom fighters. All the things we thought we were.

Terrorism = The intentional killing/attempted killing/etc of civilians for some sort of ideological purpose.

Yep, that's terrorism alright.

"You know what Iraqi history books will call your "terrorists"? Patriots. Freedom fighters. All the things we thought we were."

Not those guys, nope. They are murdering terrorists. That is what those particular people are.

That doesn't mean that everyone who lives in Iraq is a terrorist, however.

"They killed Berg without torturing him first? That was a demonstration of their humaneness. It could have been MUCH worse. It WILL get MUCH worse."

I don't know whether to hope that you are jesting.

"They killed Berg without torturing him first? That was a demonstration of their humaneness."

Sawing off the head of someone while they are totally conscious and feeling pain is humane? Christ, either you're deaf and didn't hear the guy screaming during the entire ordeal or your hatred of Bush is so great it's messed up your sense of logic.

Since we don't yell for revenge when the people that we invaded and tortured and killed have killed one from our side - "liberals are condemned".

:eyes:

We have already gotten more than our share. I protested our going over there, I've been saying we should leave ever since we've been there. I've been outraged over the entire mess for quite awhile,now.

I was going to agree, and I still see your point. If you are supposedly liberating a country, you should be above torture.

But:

Terrorists - Killing people for God.

President - Attacking an entire country (for God).

It's easy to co-ordinate your talking points ahead of time when you are setting up the black op mind control action. The media hypnotized sheeple will believe anything the power elite feeds them.

I am outraged at the beheading by the terrorists, I just have a different idea about who the "terrorists" are.

These right wing nuts are attempting to use the Berg incident to deflect culpability in the Abu Gharib crimes.

Did they really expect that liberals would come flocking into their camps, due to outrage over the incident?

I can't believe that they would expect us as free thinkers to focus on the horrible crime done to Berg and forgive the crimes at Abu Gharib in response.

They aren't really looking for outrage, but an opportunity to use the decapitation to justify the prison abuses. What of the allegations of homicides at Abu Gharib? How about the pictures of the Iraqi packed in ice cubes.

Perhaps the right wingers can use this to ease their conscience, but those who truly know compassion cannot.

I can't believe we turned our nation over to the leadership of the right wing socio and psychopaths.

and I refuse to feel anything over ANYTHING any more.

I'm sick of having my emotions tweaked every which direction by all these different folks who have absolutely no compulsion to stoop to the lowest, nastiest form of human behavior possible in order to only do one thing --- stir up emotions in people.

NO MORE EMOTIONS to ANYTHING.

I am sickened by all of this. But most of all I am having a realization that we are all in way way over our heads.

Things have gotten so fucking bizarre that all I can think of now is how do we get out of this?

How do we, as a country, for starters, heal?

If 9/11 couldn't bring us together successfully, what will?

That's a frightening question, but the only one worth asking now.

Will it take the complete destruction of the United States by the rest of the world in order for us to quit hating each other?

I've never in my life thought that the end of the United States by violence from the outside was possible, but now I'm starting to think that it's inevitable.

... just a guess. Whaddya think?

-- Allen

at al Qaeda, and at Bush for distracting us from our efforts and empowering al Qaeda with the pointless Iraq war. So, how do we get al Qaeda, because this war in Iraq is clearly not weakening them.

And in a way that enrages and galvanizes Americans against them and revolts the civilized world.

I mean, can this international under-the-radar network really be so fucking stupid as to always work against their own interests? Why am I so skeptical?

believe that "Al Qaeda" is a construct of the CIA. Every time, as you pointed out, Bush needs a distraction, "Al Qaeda" provides a new video of Osama, or one of his lieutenants, or a supposed beheading, or a raised Homeland Defense warning level, or perhaps, even a reason to start an invasion of the Middle East (like 9/11?).

It all smells, and I for one have a distinct feeling in the pit of my stomach, that the most recent video is another sick attempt by the neocon black-ops people to manipulate the sheeple once again. And notice how quickly the neocon's allies jumped to use the video as a propaganda tool to assault the "enemies of Bush".

I tell you, it stinks. These fuckers are sick, evil, traitors. We need to find them, expose them, and give them their due.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

Obvious.

Everytime Bush in trouble an Osama tape pops up and he used that to turn the tide of a lot of scandals now, but what I think has happened is that they overplayed that hand and Americans don't seem to care all that much about new tapes that come out. So they've had to move to more drastic steps to get Americans behind this war.

Wasn't Osama trained by our Government Agencies?

This is pure PsyOps and sadly enough it's gotten to the point where we can see it but the others refuse to.

After all German citizens know the score. They were the first to believe our Government would do such a thing.

You know we've been trained since we were young to believe our country is a certain way, you can't unprogram that now for most of these people... same as with religious people.

:-/

*Sigh*

Rp

I know of NO liberals who are not absolutely OUTRAGED at this act of depravity ....

Even of they disagree who it at fault: the revulsion is universal ...

Dont buy into their arguments .... FIGHT them !

so we should leave Iraq so less people die for nothing.

gets the Horse's Ass trophy for his comments about his outrage at all of the outrage over the abuse and inhumane treatment by the U.S. toward Iraqi captives. I can't paraphrase all his comments because I was in such shock and I was wondering if he was going to yell out, "just trickin' ole buddies!!" but basically he rationalized that since these people were killers and terrorists, they deserved such treatment.
Of course he managed to politicize it by implying that the Democrats were just using this as an issue to score points - naturally, no one can be legitimately disgusted and angry over what is being done in the names of Americans...
The man is an absolute wingnut and he gives Americans a bad name across the world.

and less to be outraged about. And less outrage about the outrage.

And less rage.

That would be better.

Maybe we're saddened right now because a human being died horribly. Outrage may come later on.

overwhelmed...worried, you name it...

We've seen the human race at its worst over the last few days. Man's inhumanity to man at its worst.

Don't make this a contest about which is worst. THey are both heinous.

The a*holes who killed Berg should be caught and punished as I hope they will be. And yes, I'm outraged, but I expect as much from terrorists.

But we are supposed to be better than those animals, and when you have idiots like Gen. Boyken inflaming those people, you get actions like this occurring.

We hold ourselves as morally higher, so while I am outraged at these terrorists, I expect this type of inhumanity. I don't from our own troops.

Whoever did this had an extremely warped (or keen) grip on American sensibilities.

But where is the conservative outrage? To them this war is just another video game, and more deaths mean nothing to those who are never concerned about the shortness of life.

Yesterday, the torture of Iraqis was either just "frat pranks", and "blowing off steam", or just the expected consequences of war, and not something that someone should be shocked about.
Today, a man being murdered is not a consequence of war, but an outrage that must be revenged.
I guess your life's value depends on what your passport says.

Those prisoners should not have been tortured. That american man should not have been butchered. Niether of these things occurred in a vacuum, and they are all related.
What makes liberals different is the ability to see that these things just don't happen. They all have causes. If we were to ignore the causes, and just react to the events, we will never see an end to them.
Rwingers think the answer to all problems is to violently attack until the problem is beaten or hidden. They never do anything about the causes, so the problems keep coming back.

I bet they think that if we threw enough bombs at the WTC site, the builings would stand back up. I don't understand that kind of thinking and I don't think I ever will.

Thousands died. No big deal to these traitors.

Everybody is horrified by the beheading. If you've been here today, you've seen it. Trust what you know and tell any one of them that you are horrified by both. But you always expected you might see terrorists beheading someone; but that you never expected to see Americans torturing, raping and murdering as part of a prison operation against the Geneva Conventions. That's the difference.

this murder was a convenient subject changer for these haters. Instead of defense they go back on offense and twist this into something so bizarre it doesnt even resemble reality. As if I wasnt appaled at these beheadings. If it was up to me I think Id pull out of the Middle East and let Nature run its course. If all thats left are some smoking ruins then imo that would make the World a better place without the fanatics on both sides. Let kharma be the judge and jury and hangman.

I believe most of us are in a state of shock. I watched the video. It was terrible. I'm not sure what you think we should be doing. Diuscussing it, abhorring it, what?

Most of us are not sure where to go with our anger and disgust, and, unfortunately, some of that is being expressed in questions about the way it was done and if what we are hearing about this poor young man's death is the full story. We also expressed questions about the abuse scandals.

Me thinks the excoriation of DUers supposed lack of outrage is a bit overdone. I know of no one on this board who has not expressed outrage, even when they are attempting to make sense of the event.

challenge them and say 'how dare they assume that i am not outraged to cruelty.' and then scream at them at 'not being outraged at our allowed immorality and degradation of our sacred honor.'

slap them on both. say you are angry at them (republicans) for starting this mess, and angry at them for letting it devolve to our enemies' desired level, dragging innocent people into the nightmare.

be angry at them for disgracing our country, be angry at them for trying to excuse immorality, be angry at trying to skirt the issue by using a disgraceful act of revenge to *justify* immorality... never let up, run them into oblivion. they are 100% fully into the wrong, and they know it, and are scared, and the reason you can tell is because they are trying to attack first.

if you get attacked, attack back, and attack hard, and eviscerate them. divide them from the honor, morality, and patriotism they hide behind and expose them for the evil, cruel, vile scum of the earth that they are and never let up. make them cry because this nightmare is owned wholly by them, and never let them squirm away. make them eat the !@$%!#$ they spew and never let up until they are quivering for forgiveness for destroying everything you and your ancestors fought for.

don't you *dare* give these guilty, arrogant, amoral, sadistic schmucks get a single INCH from this argument, make them lose a mile that they deserve!

...As a person who is a Liberal (and say it loud and proud), I am sickened, outraged and saddened that any of this terror being done by either side is happening.

My heart goes out to all families that are suffering torture and loss right now - my outrage is saved for the Bushies...

I can only imagine the sadness being felt by any family that has to know how their family member, whether it was a civilian in a Prison being tortured and humiliated (maybe even raped or killed?)or the heinous murder of Nick Berg. Regardless, any of these acts are wrong but I will say that if Repukes think us "Liberals" just want to fundraise for Kerry and be political in promoting the photos of the prisoners and that we should be more upset about the beheading of Nick Berg and the contractors who were killed last month, I must disagree. I'm upset about both the actions of the US Military and the murdering of our citizens by the crowds and the kidnappers - disgusted and I've cried for all these events.

However, that said - We, the United States and the military that "invaded" that Nation on the pretense of bringing them freedom and democracy and human rights had a duty, an obligation, both morally, ethically and "legally" under International Law and the Geneva Conventions of which we a signatur, not to mention that little document called the constitution for which our nation is founded. If we don't uphold and keep ourselves at this higher standard, then we are in my opinion worse than these "barbarians" because we are hypocrites as well as barbarians.

is very OUTRAGED and non of their elk better ever say to my face that I am not!!! :mad: :grr: :nuke:

HOW THE HELL DO THEY KNOW WHETHER LIBERALS ARE OUTRAGED OR NOT, they never pay any attention to anything other than their own selfish interests! :argh:

typical right wing bullshit!! any decent human being would be horrified by both....and outraged of course!

Where's the outrage? It's here. I'm outraged that an innocent man was so brutally murdered. I am outraged that he was detained by US officials without charges against him being filed. I am outraged that if our government wanted him out of Iraq, they didn't help him get out. I am not surprised that he was brutally murdered. Why? The abuses by US forces at Abu Ghraib have been well known in Iraq. One of the tenets of Islam is an "eye for and eye; a tooth for a tooth." We cannot expect that any of our people who are captured by Iraqi insurgents, Al Qaeda, etc. will be treated humanely - there will be more senseless acts of violence like this. On this same day that the video of Berg's murder was released, four US Contractors were also murdered, their burned bodies being strung up on a bridge for all to see.

Is this making excuses for the murders? NO. But we do bear responsibility, because in war, one side can only expect humane treatment if they give humane treatment to their enemies. We have failed miserably in this endeavor. We have treated Iraqi detainees (90+% of whom have been charged with no crime) like animals. We committed acts against them that violate their religion and culture. How on earth do we not expect them to react in turn? Does it excuse the murder? No, but neither does it justify our failure to abide by the laws of decency and humanity as laid out by the Geneva Conventions. Those responsible for the torture at Abu Ghraib and other prisons like it have not only the blood of Iraqis on their hands, but the blood of Americans who have been or will be senselessly murdered in retaliation for these acts.

over the thousands of dead Iraqi civilians.

by what some of you are posting in this thread...

I simply can't believe what I'm reading from some of you.

you saddend that liberals feel saddend about a death of a fellow American in a country we should have never stepped foot in in the first place? Is that a dissapointment to you? that everything you have been told about liberals not having sympathy, not having morals, is wrong?

I think you should post here more often:
http://www.conservativeunderground.com

That's the place you need to go to post your misinformed thoughts about liberals.

This morning I heard some right wing wacko talk show host saying, "where is the outrage" on yesterday's show. Yesterday? I found out about Berg at night. I didn't even have time to be outraged over something I didn't even know had happened. But the right wing loonies were waiting to jump on a story. I haven't seen anyone not outraged. But that doesn't mean we now get to forget the torture by Americans. And lest the right wants to ignore it....there are beating deaths and rapes being investigated. There is a lot of torture to go around.

torture is ok, nuke 'em, they are animals. So cynical, predictable & sick.

right next to the conservative outrage over their realization that their beloved president lied them into this war to begin with.

:headbang:
rocknation

about someone who of their own free will, put themselves into a very dangerous situation and got killed.

Iraq is a War Zone. People get killed in War Zones. That's why some of these private contractors are making the big bucks.

Of course, that doesn't mean I don't feel bad for the fellow and his family. But I don't fell outraged. Sorrow yes. I feel sorrow for the whole damn mess.

No matter what I think otherwise, the thought keeps returning, 'but he didn't have to be there in the first place.' He wasn't a contractor's employee, so he didn't even have the vague promise of the security the contractors' employees have. What ever possessed this guy? And to think he was a practicing Jew walking into a Muslim country with very shaky security just blew my mind.

I really feel bad for his family, because clearly they didn't share his enthusiasm for the trip. Nor his enthusiasm for many things, apparently. That has to be one tough row to hoe -- that your son died in the name of something you didn't even believe in yourself.

Outraged? I don't know. I can't honestly say the prisoner torture thing caught me by surprise sufficiently to cause outrage in me either, though. The ends justify the means for this crew, nothing the Bush Administration does at any level surprises me, and surprise is necessary for me to feel outrage. I wasn't surprised when I found out, so I wasn't outraged. Disgusted? Yeah. Sick about it? Yeah. I feel the same way about Berg's death, too. There goes their demonization -- unlike 'them,' we're capable of feeling bad about both, and of distinguishing the facts we're given and how they relate to each other.

That appears to be the difference between 'us' and 'them,' though -- we're willing to admit the world is a complex place, and that all things are relative. They're not. Nothing new there -- it's been true since after the Civil War, and I doubt very much it'll ever be any different.

This is a key difference between liberal and conservative mindsets. The right simply sees a horrible act committed by a people they consider to be animals. For many this extends not just to the terrorists but to the entire religion and culture.

The left sees these actions as horrible but also as the result of a complex series of events and interplays between vying cultures. There is a recognition that these things do not happen in a vaccum.

From these to positions different paths are taken. On the right the sense of moral outrage demands that swift action be taken against all involved. This may even be directed at the entire society. Vengence becomes the call.

The left's initial reaction is to find out more about the situation. Not willing to fly off the handle at the first sign of atrocities. They seek a solution to the problem. Not simple revenge. There may be an emotional desire for reaction but there is an intellectual understanding that it must be measured and it must be just.

Thus the liberals will appear to be unphased by the event. Because they advise deliberative reactions rather than storming off in a rage. They seek to control their emotions where the right gives in to them. It is this pivot point, this fulcrum that the manipulaters of the right will focus on in order to demonise the left all the more. Because we do not join the mob in storming the castle they will insist that we are with the enemy.

The guy would still be alive if Bush hadn't taken us to war for no reason. There would not have been any prisoner torture either, and we we would have saved $185 billion in tax money wasted so far.

It is a huge, huge mistake by the Bushies, and people still treat it as debatable. We conform reality to the fifty-fifty split instead of changing the split in response to reality.

to cover up the torture story.

Any questions?

We are outraged that people like yourself (Mr. Talk Show Host) have created an environment, a mindset, in millions of people that have led senior officers of our own British allies to compare the attitudes and actions of U.S. soldiers to those of the Nazis.

And we're outraged.

This entire war was about establishing forward troop positions in a subsurvient country to maintain our oil supplies after we withdrew from Saudi Arabia. It was all good old fashioned geopolitics of the 19th Centruy Imperialist/Cold War line. You lied, people died.

And we're outraged.

"I don't hear any outrage over poor young Mr. Berg..."

Yeah? pull your fingers out of your ears and stop looking at what Karl's "Agent Provacateurs" are posting on the Net....

Apples and Oranges...like Limpball's statement about the prison abuse being "no worse than a 'Skull and Bones' initiation..."

Uh, Rush? The Bonesmen CHOSE to get raped and humiliated.....

Anything "the Left" has to say about Berg that is the least supportive is getting squashed or twisted.

"Liberal Media"...

Hey, Agent Mike! If you believe this "Liberal Media" shit your masters pump out to the Sheep, I got a statue in NY harbour I'll sell you cheap!

of the torture they praise or yet another bogus "terrorist" scam done for the benefit of the Bush Crime Family. That's probably the reason. I'm sure people fell badly for the guy and that whoever did it was barbaric, but what did they expect to happen?

I'm saddened by what some of YOU are saying from your own opinions.

I can't believe some of you can say the things you are saying. It is truly disturbing that so many of you are so full of venom.

I say this truly as one human being to another, some of you seriously need to reconsider your outlook on life.

I am shocked by what some of your opinions are over this unbelievable tragedy.

Maybe you need to reconsider your outlook on life and the murder you support.
I am shocked that you try to justify hate.

oh well, you post only a few quick ones and then leave. Probably didn't even take the time to even read the thread past the subject line.

What is YOUR opinion?

180

Mike88, I am a Liberal. I saw the video personally. My first reaction wasn't ,"Hell yeah, kill him kill him!" like your Neocon fundies say my reaction was. Let me first describe what I felt while actaully watching the whole clip.

I was shaking becuase I knew what I was about to see, but I knew I had to see it.
It happend, and I was mortified. I felt pain, anguish and my first thoughts were condolences for the family for thier loss. The whole time I did not feel hate or rage in any way, shape, or form. I was still trying to digest what I just saw, a horrific act by a militant group. I knew things like this were going to happen in WAR, that is why my anger was visible before it happend and still as it has been going on. Nick Berg would not have died like that if we had never went into IRAQ. I am angry that no WMD was found while your president made jokes about it while soldiers died?

where was your outcry?

While tortue was happening in US Military prisons hold Iraqi's and violations against the Geneva Convention were made

Where was your outcry mike88?

While we wasted time in Iraq hunting Al Qaeda and killed Saddam's son's and not Osama Bin Laden

Where was your outcry mike88?

well, where was it?

Have you not been reading the expressions of outrage at the beheading in this very thread or is your psychological filter blocking them out?

the Conservative outrage over the prison TORTURE'S is! My heart goes out to this man's family...what a horrible, horrible thing. If in fact he was murdered by AQ (and I have my doubts), then let's blame DUMBASS BUSH and his murdering minions.

As for Repubs making the distinction between "us and them", that would require thinking, reasoning, and logic...all traits that are discouraged from birth.

Jenn

If they'd shut their ignorant yaps up for a minute, they'd be able to hear it.

The torture at Abu Ghraib and the murder of Mr. Berg are related to each other as red herrings. The perpetrators of one and their supporters will use the other as justification for their atrocities; however, neither atrocity can justify the other.

The torture at Abu Ghraib was not "favorable" to Iraqis, Muslims, Arabs or whatever. It reflected badly on the individual soldiers involved, their commanders, the US armed forces and, finally, on the US administration that set up a peculiar detention system beyond the oversight of any independent body, either federal or international. Most importantly to the Bush administration, it stripped away any pretense that the war was fought to bring democracy to Iraq. Democracy does not look like this.

Of course, we know what al Qaida is. That their operatives would do what they did to Mr. Berg should surprise no one. These are, after all, the same people who plunged hijacked jetliners into office buildings on September 11 and killed 3000 people. There's nothing good to say about them, either.

In the end, it shouldn't surprise us one bit that either group of criminals -- al Qaida or the Bush junta -- would use the other acts as pretexts for more atrocious acts. They are all certain that they live the good and moral life and have every right to beat the crap out of anybody who doesn't accept it or kill them in the most horrid ways imaginable. There are all peas of the same pod -- or is it fruit of the same deadly nightshade?

We need to fight an effective war against terrorists. Any of us could have been at the WTC on September 11; any of us could have been Nick Berg. There's nothing ideological about al Qaida; as far as Osama is concerned, the only good American is a dead American, whether it's Noam Chomsky or David Duke.

So far, Bush has merely used the September 11 attacks as a pretext to invade oil rich nation, expropriate its assets and natural resources and dole it out to his cronies. Has Bush made the world safer from these thugs? What would Nick Berg say, if he could speak to that? Bush has not fought an effective war on terror and has no clue about how to do so.

So did the torture scenes. So do all of the people of every nation who are dying because of the * administration.

Fuck the people who say otherwise.

It's more bashing of these abstract liberals I keep hearing about. It's about hammering some contrast together like incorrect jigsaw puzzle pieces, to make something that looks like a moral question with a clear moral answer.

This is not always true, but a lot of them are not in it for debate. They already know they are right. They are in it for distance and irritation.

What I didn't know is that there were Americans who would torture Iraqis. How can they not see the difference?

I think they just want to divert their attention and find somebody else to be angry with, so they get each other focused on anger at "libruls," as usual.

Where's the liberal outrage over the beheading?

I think that if that's what they're saying their emotions are pretty shallow. Is outrage and anger so close to the surface with these people that they can spring it at an instant?

I don't know how anyone else feels, but right now I feel stunned by what happened to Mr. Berg. There really are no words. I don't understand how anyone can "jump all over" this thing just yet.

About the only things I can say are that while the statement was read by one of the executioners, Mr. Berg did not look as if he had any inkling of what was to happen, and that his death came quickly. Other than that, I don't know what to think really.

Amnesty: Girl aged eight shot dead by British soldiers.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1214017,00.html

Shot that killed girl, 8
In August 21 last year Hanan was playing with other children in the narrow alley by her house. A unit of British soldiers from B "Champion" Company of the 1st Battalion the King's Regiment pulled up on the dirt road about 50 metres away at the end of the alley.

"They stopped at the end of the alley and they started giving chocolates to the children," her father, Saleh Matrud, a taxi driver, told the Guardian yesterday. "My child started to go towards the other children. But she is shy and she was afraid to go forwards so she stopped by a metal gate. At that moment a bullet came from the British and hit her in the stomach," he said.

In fact, the bullet knocked his eldest child to the floor and sliced open her abdomen causing her intestines to spill out.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1214030,00.html

Unarmed youth, 19, shot dead at wedding
When Ghanem Kadhem Kati was shot dead outside his home he was unarmed and had his back to the British soldier who killed him.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1214021,00.html

Homes of 1,100 Palestinians in Gaza destroyed - UN agency
10 May 2004 ? The last 10 days have seen one of the most intense periods of destruction by the Israeli military in Gaza since the start of the Intifada, with more than 100 homes flattened and 1,100 people left homeless, the main United Nations agency helping Palestinian refugees said today.

According to the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), the Israeli military has demolished or damaged beyond repair 131 residential buildings since the start of May, bringing to 17,594 the total number of people who have lost their homes in Gaza.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=10675&Cr=UNRWA&Cr1

That's what they want from this. So fuck them.

The story has saddened me immensely, more so because I suspect the spin.

I remember, "Why aren't you protesting against North Vietnam's treatment of U.S prisoners?" "Why aren't you protesting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan?" and "Why aren't you protesting against the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon?"

We are Americans. What the U.S. government does is being done in our name. We therefore have an obligation to protest things that are being done in our name if we feel that they are immoral or wrong-headed.

We are not Vietnamese or Russians or Arabs.

Personally, I'm so sickened by even written accounts of the beheading that I refuse to watch the video, but I don't see any point in "protesting" against a group that so far is only shadowy figures on a website. Besides, whoever the perpetrators are, my opinion carries even less weight with them than it does with the Bush Gang.

Sooooo.... if we were "properly" outraged at the beheading, then where would be the outrage against the prison torture?

I condemn the butchering of Berg, but, I have to paraphrase Joseph Heller from Catch-22 here:

The enemey is whoever is going to get you killed.

The fact is, we're in control of neither party of "terrorists" on both sides of this dispute.

We didn't vote for Bush. Where's the outrage?????

Sooooo.... if we were "properly" outraged at the beheading, then where would be the outrage against the prison torture?

I condemn the butchering of Berg, but, I have to paraphrase Joseph Heller from Catch-22 here:

The enemey is whoever is going to get you killed.

The fact is, we're in control of neither party of "terrorists" on both sides of this dispute.

We didn't vote for Bush. Where's the outrage?????

they will be accused of "politicizing" the horrible act...we just can't win with those forked tongued, double speaking, idiots!

I mean come on I heard the basically sawed the poor bastard's head off.

That shit is wrong.

The Iraqi torture is wrong.

The beheading is wrong.

The war is wrong.

Now, the Iraqis trust the US even less than they did that bastard Saddam and he was a vicious bastard.

It is only going to get worst and this criminal Administration has left us no good options in terms of getting out.

_

He waited days to bring up what Oxybaugh said about the prison abuse, and contrasted it with the tape of the beheading.

Their excusing of American amoral behavior is what outrages me. Their hypocrisy outrages me. The Right tries to stuff their pseudo-morals in every one of our orifices, but when the shit hits the fan they throw those "morals" out the window. Their response is to demand a military flailing or arms, killing indiscriminately just as long as were killing A-rabs.

What ever happened to "do unto others..." and "turn the other cheek"? I guess those ideals only apply when it benefits them. To me they are no better than the animals that butchered Mr. Berg.

In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that <Abu Musab> Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.

The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council.

“Here we had targets, we had opportunities, we had a country willing to support casualties, or risk casualties after 9/11 and we still didn’t do it,” said Michael O’Hanlon, military analyst with the Brookings Institution.

. . .The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it.

Military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi’s operation was airtight, but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/

For those who aren't following, that is the same terrorist group who orchestrated the decapitation.

And, predicted by many of us here. This country was led into war as a political gesture by an increasingly unpopular president and his gang of sociopathic cronies to get reelected by appearing "tough on terrorism". That despite overwhelming evidence that getting "tough" does absolutely nothing to stop it. i.e. Palestine, Chechnya, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc, ad infinitum.

That this was done with the acquiescence of supposedly liberal Democrats is shameful.

Outraged? Sure. I'm outraged by the death of Berg. I'm also outraged by the deaths of thousands of Iraqis, hundreds of GI's, and millions of other people in the name of political expediency and corporate profiteering. I'm outraged that a lot more Americans aren't outraged at the sight of civilians dismembered by bombs, artillery and machine guns wielded by "liberators".

It's time to get out of Iraq and try to find a way for this country to become a part of the world community rather than it's worst enemy.

Rumsfeld's scumminess, Cheney's pure unabashed greed and fervor that got Berg into Iraq and killed in the first place, and Shrub's unending refusal to be accountable for anything he does.

As my favorite Canadian singer once said, "IF I had a rocket launcher..."