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FT: Iraq is not another Vietnam. It is far more dangerous than that.

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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 02:53 PM
Original message
FT: Iraq is not another Vietnam. It is far more dangerous than that.
A good read from the Financial Times:

http://search.ft.com/search/article.html?id=040512000157

A war against terrorism is as empty a slogan as one against crime, drugs or disease. But proclaiming a war against terrorism justifies the indefinite suspension of the rule of law, allows every thug on the planet to ally his repressive policies to those of the US, spawns new enemies and foments a war psychosis in the US itself.

<snip>

The US has, rightly or wrongly, staked its prestige not just on getting rid of Saddam Hussein, but on leaving behind a thriving country. If, instead, it leaves behind despotism or chaos, it will be a grievous defeat, with huge long-run consequences. Responsibility for such a failure must rest with the White House. It cannot be blamed on any subordinate department, not even the defence department. This is the president's policy and responsibility. The buck stops there.

<more>

http://search.ft.com/search/article.html?id=040512000157
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Amen
I was waiting for someone to say that..
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Aaaaaaahh but if
it works, it changes the world. Bold or Foolish .... might take years to determine which.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes. Let's flip a coin....
If we make the right decision, we survive. If we are wrong, we die. Fair enough? It's a gamble that only the insane would perpetrate on the people...
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Maybe , but how about this ...
If it goes right, the world thrives and the peoples of Crescent start a Renaissance that advances all their nations. If it goes wrong, we switch to a hydrogen economy much quicker!

But hey, I'm an optimist!
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. if it goes wrong
they'll be too much mayhem and strife in the world to even worry about hydrogen cars - the days of isolationism are over....if the middle east goes to hell in a hand-bag we are going to have more to worry about than merely finding alternative fuel sources....

and anyway, even if we were to completely switch every car and truck over to hydrogen or solar power, we are still highly dependant on petrochemicals - which come from the refinement of crude oil....so even if you were to cease using an internal combustion engine, living in a modern world you are, almost by your very existence, creating a demand for crude oil.....
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Sorry ...
the Middle East is already hell in a handbasket. We can make it fractionally worse or geometrically better. The WMDs, nukes, dirty bombs, chemicals, were already coming our way - at least we're no longer asleep.

And if you'll look around - we produce plenty of oil in the US if we didn't need to burn it for energy. Texas, California, Penn., Louisianna, Alaska, and we haven't tapped coastal Florida yet ;-)
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. The odds of it ever going right were infitesimal
Before we messed with Iraq it was quite possibly the most modernized and progressive arab country. A brutal dictator, undeniable, but a secular dictator, not a fundamentalist. Iraq had the highest college attendence and the highest attendance by women in the muslim ME, women worked and could dress in western fashion if they cared to.

If we had had an enlightened ME policy including a fair solution to the Israel/Palestine problem there would be NO REASON for the WMDs, nukes, dirty bombs, chemicals to come our way. Now we have given a billion muslims tens of thousands of reasons!

By the way, the US uses 25% of the world's oil supplies and we have 3% of the reserves. How long we gonna last that way??
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I look foward to a Hydrogen ...
economy if we can get those boys & girls and TI to perfect their low cost solar cells.

Because Iraq had such a level of progressiveness, it was the only choice for the gamble.

Now, A fair solution for the I/P question - if wishes were horses!
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. drilling in Florida and Alaska...that's your solution?
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I think we ...
already drill in Alaska? We'll get better and cleaner at it and at some point FL will come on line - just the nature of things. We're not going to roll back to a 19th century economy.

My point - if we did not have to burn petroleum for energy - we would have more than enough domestic production for petrochemicals. That is no gasoline autos, no oil burning power plants, and using electrolysis for H2 production rather than stripping h2 from hydrocarbons. So it might take re energizing the atomic energy program - I know horrors - but it would be nice not to have to use middle east crude.
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. does Tommy Friedman know you raid his wardrobe?
seriously...
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. i agre with your point in the abstract
but the reality is that ending our dependancy, or at least partial dependancy, on oil imports isn't likely to happen no matter what happens in the region. we can't even get most of this country to recycle, let alone give up their all important SUVs. and as long as there is that market (fueld with *'s SUV tax cut), automakers don't have the incentive to make more efficient, let alone alternative fuel, cars and truck.....


note: I was refering to opening the Artic Wilderness Reserve to drilling, not the already existing drilling in Alaska...
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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I want some of whatever you are smoking. n/t
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Hoyo de Monterrey - Exacaliber 1066 ... ymmm n/t
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Who cares what they think"
Edited on Thu May-13-04 03:38 PM by JHB
Bunch of furriners! More dressed-up British anti-semitism!
Top o'the world, Ma!

(/* imitation)
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west michigan Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. Wow
...just plain wow. A worthy read.
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