another anomaly in Berg murder: gold ring of executioner

Khilafah.com has the ABCNews.com story "Behind the Masks: Clues From Graphic Tape of Beheading Could Help Identify Killers" running on their web site. The story includes the detail that "One of the clues the FBI and CIA is studying is the large gold ring Zarqawi is wearing on his right hand, giving off a glare several times during the six-minute tape."

At the very top of the page Khilafah.com has added the head:
Executioner wore gold ring - forbidden by Islam

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=9529&TagID=2

wearing a wrist watch. Or, like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid where jet trails can be seen across the sky...

:eyes:

Only hear that from rednecks and freeps.

:hi:

But, the point could have been made without using racial slurs. Thanks for nothing Can't believe you're a mod.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I was doing an imitation of the old western program dialogue. Do you write a letter to TBS everytime they show an old western? I agree that it wasn't needed - sorry if it truly offended you.

I grew up with racism in the 50's and 60's. That slur was fightin' words where I came from. I still get a little touchy about it.

the Berg Family has retained a forensic pathologist of their own choosing. Someone like Michael Baden or Dr. Lee.

I wouldn't trust the government to conduct an impartial investigation.

Ya just can't be too careful these days.

--apparently not just wearing a gold ring, but executing someone while wearing it?

can someone help me out here? what is Khalifah.com getting at?

Men are not allowed to wear gold. Women may wear all they want, but men are forbidden to wear anything made of gold.

A detail the crusader murderers missed when they killed Berg... Along with the white hands, Plastic chair, Yellow walls, Large body builds, military "at ease" postures, unplaceable accent, etc...

And did find a couple of sites saying that Moslem men were forbidden to wear gold jewelry -- but also that this was not mentioned anywhere in the Koran and was more of a latter-day accretion.

So the real question would be not whether Islam forbids it, but whether a pious al Qaeda type would wear a gold ring or not.

visiting Al Qaeda members we know are not always good muslims.

Makes you wonder who they REALLY are...

Al-Queda are partners with the cabal. They both have the same objectives. Think about it.

Al Qaeda a CIA asset?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=709710

"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have .... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases. -Thomas Jefferson"

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=47

and Osama "pious types".

I think they're closer to the fake Christians we know in America like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

The religion is just a tool to exploit and recruit people.

I'm just describing a possibility.

has had more to do with LOCAL CUSTOM than with anything the Koran says/does not say. All the Koran says is for men and women to dress modestly. What "modestly" means varies from nation to nation, region to region, town to town, clan to clan, family to family.

For all we know, dressing modestly might mean, at base, jeans and T-shirts for men, plain blouses and slacks (or skirts) for the women. Many non-Muslims are simply repulsed by the idea of being "forced" to wear the hijab, when in fact, it is not mandated by the Koran. That is why so many people are confused about what Muslims can/cannot do.

in public.

In other words, NOT AT AN AL QAEDA GET TOGETHER!

n/t

in a crappy video isn't brass?

Even in the pictures on that website, which are pretty sharp and clear, the rings look like gold. In fact, that might be why the site describes them as "gold effect brass."

whether or not the ring in the video was indeed gold. You seemed to imply the earlier poster was wrong about the gold rings, citing that website. I was merely pointing out the inconsistency between that implication and your evidence.

Who died and made you the CIA's favorite reporter?

that was in reference to the rings sold on the website. They're brass.

What evidence do you have that the ring in the Berg video is actually gold and not brass?

Hey, that's good enough for you, ain't it?

I mean, why would the CIA lie about something like this? Aren't they the terra'ist experts?

Are you saying the CIA has a special way to determine whether a ring on a grainy video is made of real gold? And that they've said such a thing?

The word "gold" is also an adjective meaning "having the color of gold". Saying someone is wearing a gold ring can mean one of two things: The ring is made of the element gold, OR the ring is gold in color. Like the brass rings shown on the website above.

From Ross' ABC News article:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/Investigation/nick_berg_clues_040513-1.html

A close examination of the tape shows none of the five masked men is wearing gloves, so federal officials are trying to determine if there are any tell-tale tattoos on their hands. One of the clues the FBI and CIA is studying is the large gold ring Zarqawi is wearing on his right hand, giving off a glare several times during the six-minute tape.

Other key details found on the tape the FBI and CIA are studying include the height and weight of the five masked men, which can be estimated by calculating the known height and weight of Berg.

Are you denying that the CIA told Ross the ring was gold? Do you think he just made that part up himself?

as I explained below, that it's quite possible they used the adjective "gold" meaning "gold in color" as opposed to made of the element Au.

In fact, I know of no possible way to determine the chemical makeup of a metal seen on video.

element Au?

You do realize that many fundamentalist apparel rules are based on The Prophet's color preferences, don't you?

I saw a website that sells Islamic themed brass rings that look like gold, and I posted pics of many prominent muslim men, including Osama bin Laden himself, wearing a ring that appears to be gold.

Finally, in the 4 1/2 pixel Osama picture:

1) you can't tell if the ring is gold, sliver or brass, and

2) ten to one it's not Osama anyway.

gold, or what appears to be gold.

You're ignoring the main point: there's no way the CIA or anybody knows the chemical makeup of the ring on the videotape based on viewing the tape.

I've shown that muslim men, including Osama bin Laden, DO in fact wear jewelry that either is gold, or appears to be gold.

And there are muslims in Britain.

Jihad land.

The Osama picture = Zero evidence.

1) You can't tell if the ring is gold or silver.

2) Go to Google Images and search for "Bin Laden." You see about six different guys playing the part, and NONE of them are wearing any rings, gold or otherwise.

You're ignoring the main point: there's no way the CIA or anybody knows the chemical makeup of the ring on the videotape based on viewing the tape.

No, you're ignoring the main point. The same CIA dolts who blithely told us that a GOLD ring was their very bestest clue would most easily account for this severe breach of terra'ist costuming.

Furthermore, The Prophet doesn't like fake gold jewelry any more than he likes real gold jewelry. To believe otherwise misses the whole point of the prohibition -- which is to more closely emulate The Prophet's personal tastes.

And there are muslims in Britain.

Yes. But it's hardly a jihadist stronghold. In fact, I've heard that women can actually show their faces over there at times. Imagine that!

Note the language here. These are not realy gold rings, they're just lookalikes made of brass.

I haven't seen the video - and dno't plan on doing so in the near future - but I think it'd be pretty hard to confuse the luster of gold with the relative dullness of brass on a videotape.

offer us this gem:

I haven't seen the video - and dno't plan on doing so in the near future - but I think it'd be pretty hard to confuse the luster of gold with the relative dullness of brass on a videotape.

Your giving us your opinion on the ring when you know squat about the quality of the video? :eyes:

The headline says "forbidden by Islam" but nothing in the article says any such thing.

I've known a fair number of moslems, and they wore jewelry.

He's a Pakistani Muslim. He has talked about the fact that Muslim men are not supposed to wear gold because Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said gold jewelry is a symbol of power and wealth and brings arrogance to the wearer. Nonconservative Muslim men wear wedding rings, and I'm sure I've seen some wearing other types of jewelry, as well.

http://www.hraic.org/hadith.html

Hadith Malik 539:1681 The Prophet used to wear a gold ring. One day he threw it away; the people also threw their gold rings away. He had a silver ring made for him. The people followed suit.

If you're a fundamentalist, you don't take this stuff lightly.

My husband is Palestinian and from a huge Jerusalem family that is moderately conservative. I lived in the Middle East before we met and speak fluent Arabic, and I distinctly remember a family discussion over lunch one day (the big meal of the day) about this very topic. I was surprised at the argument he shouldn't buy a gold wedding band, since they forced all kinds of gold jewelry on me (I would have rather had cash for necessities, but I wasn't enough of an ugly American to pitch a fit). It was during this discussion that I also learned that two of his siblings were natural-born lefties but forced themselves to rely on their right hand because being left-handed is also not on the approved list.

Although I am not Muslim, and my husband wears a gold wedding band (his choice), I have a deep respect for everything I've learned about the faith. I don't know if the stuff on wedding bands is from cultural or actual scriptural teachings. Just wanted to tell those scoffing at the gold band issue as conspiracy bunk that this issue is genuine.

I just don't see how. I've known many middle-eastern men who wear gold. Is it like the biblical prohibition on mixing cotton and polyester?

Give it up, dookus.

It's a lost cause. Just because the CIA knows nothing about the supposed sworn enemies of our freedom -- Muslim fundies -- that doesn't mean that all of us are equally ignorant.

The only point I'm making is that moslem men wear jewelry that is either made of gold, or appears to be made of gold. That's all.

You seem a little overwrought.

vision of a pan-Arab theocracy, and you are arguing that it makes perfect sense for him to break a cardinal rule of Islamic fundamentalism?

Why? Why is it so damn important to you to argue the inarguable?

I mean, this is like seeing a Hassidic Jew eating a ham & cheese. Sure, it COULD and DOES happen -- probably every day. But I doubt that a lot of them then proceed to disseminate videotapes of these meals on their websites.

comparing this to a Hassidic jew eating ham and cheese is just wrong.

You haven't shown that the ring shown in a grainy video *IS* gold.

You haven't shown that moslems do NOT wear gold, despite traditional prohibitions against it. Many Christians and Jews wear Cotton/polyester mixes, too. Even some fundamentalists, I'd dare say.

Your personal attacks on me for pointing these out is why I say you're overwrought.

the preponderance of the evidence.

And the preponderance of the evidence now says that bad neocon screenwiters and directors make laughably obvious psyops.

I mean, this isn't even "junior detective stuff" anymore. It's more like Fisher-Price detective. It's like they're Bugs Meany and we're Encyclopedia Brown.

I've seen NO evidence that this is obvous psyops.

First, this episode does NOT benefit the neocons. It hurts them.
Second, I believe the CIA or whatever secret group you want to blame is smart enough NOT to make the "mistakes" the tinfoilers are throwing out.

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that this murder was not done by Muslims who are angry at the US. Whether it's Al Qaeda or not, I have no idea.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/Investigation/nick_berg_clues_040513-1.html

Read the article. The CIA's most favored clues to find the Muslim fundie terra'ists who they have "confirmed" were responsible for this outrage are "hand tatoos" and "gold rings."

I didn't say that. They did.

But they are all brainiacs over there, right? Try again, Bugs.

Yep, I'd say that they'll be solving this case right after they solve the anthrax case and the UN bombing case.

Men are strictly prohibited from wearing slik & gold, just like women are strictly prohibited from showing their faces in public.

Is this one? What's on his hand?

he's a character, all right.

I love his portable tent and his all-female bodyguard corps.

I'll have a corps of all female bodyguards too!:bounce:

:silly:

Face it.

Your boys completely blew it on this one and your pants are now down around your ankles.

Surely you jest.

Face it.

Your boys completely blew it on this one and your pants are now down around your ankles.

Time to take a well earned vacation, dookus.

despite your fantasies about where my pants may or not be, the only point I'm making is that moslem men wear jewelry that either is, or appears to be, made of gold.

You need to calm down - your PA's are getting out of line.

But how many devout Mormon civic leaders post videotapes of themselves drinking and swearing?

you haven't shown at all that moslems do not wear gold or gold-lookalikes. You haven't shown, and you can't, that the ring in the grainy video is, in fact, gold.

I've shown many moslem men, including Osama bin Laden himself, wearing a ring that either is or appears to be gold.

I'm not a prosecuting attorney. I'm not interested in proving anything except that anybody who still blithely accepts this story at face value is pushing Gomer Pyle in the gullibility quotient department.

Do you know what "fundamentalist" means?

But it's truly American to simply increase the volume long after one's ignorance has been fully exposed.

As would cutting a guy's head off, I imagine.

You might as well have seen a picture of a Hassidic Rabbi eating a ham & cheese Hot Pocket.

sounds like a rule for fundy extremists. like no kites n crap...

I think, this man who is supposedly a hard-core Islamic terrorist.. enough of one to do such a horrific thing in the supposed name of his religion had damn better be a hard core follower of the religion he is espousing.. A gold wedding band.. a very western thing. The story is just too wierd not to be torn apart like this.. it's the only way the truth will be found. Too many questions.

If you recall, there was not much speculation, beyond places like Du about the Pearl killing. It was accepted as mostly a true situation. There are too many wierd things going on...

That's proof-certain that Bush ordered it! Indict him immediately!

:tinfoilhat:

and your just makin up crap.

How many :tinfoilhat: threads do we need on this particular subject? :wtf:

seems appropriate to me!

i know,
maybe u can just hide it =)

Shall we start a thread for each difference among the 5 hoods they're wearing, too?

:wtf:

That executioner on the far right in the pic just before the beheading began... notice how long that mask ran down his back. He probably wore a pony tail... Moslems don't often wear pony tails! He must be an agent of Bush!

Man, this whole damn charade is really falling apart, ain't it?

Huh? :wtf:

All we know so far is that there is something fishy about the video. Some people are going to look for a possible angle for Bush's involvement. But there is a world of possible explanations including that the video is what it preports to be. We are just shaking the trees to see what falls out.

You know nothing of the sort! You have questions you don't have the answers to, but that doesn't make it 'fishy'. Do you know how uranium degrades in a reactor; if you don't, does that make nuclear reactors 'fishy', too?

:wtf:

I am not prepared to conclude anything from the evidence. But I also do not have enough evidence to accept the official story as yet either. Thus asking questions and exploring possibilities is a valid course of action.

It's a valid topic to discuss.

Flesh out the ideas.

Something certainly doesn't smell right.

Putting a :tinfoilhat: so firmly that it cuts of circulation to the brain is something entirely different, and there are far too many here doing just that.

and there is a huge stink on that video tape.

http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/97/re05-16-97.html

Q 1. Are Muslim men allowed to wear solid gold jewelry and silk clothing? There seems to be some confusion in the minds of some people. I read in some Islamic publications in America that the prohibition is not very strong and men can also wear gold and silk. Please give the correct Islamic position based on the Qur'an and Sunnah.

A 1. To my knowledge there is no reliable and trustworthy Muslims jurist who has ever said that Muslim men may wear pure gold and silk as and when they wish. According to the Shari'ah, it is very clear that wearing pure golden jewelry and silken clothes is forbidden (haram) for men. The Prophet -peace be upon him- said: "These two (referring to gold and silk) are forbidden (haram) for the males among my followers, but they are allowed (halal) for the females". This Hadith is reported in the collection of al-Tirmidhi and there are more than a dozen other Ahadith on this subject. Thus all Muslim jurists are unanimous that wearing gold and silk for men is forbidden. The question is sometimes raised about a small amount or wearing these things for necessity such as due to sickness or in war conditions. Under these circumstances only it is permissible for men to wear gold or silk. A small amount of gold or a mixture of silk with other material is permissible. But Muslim men should not wear golden rings, watches or other jewelry. Similarly Muslim men should not wear pure silken clothes, unless they need to wear them for medical reasons.

The Prophet.

but that won't stop the people who believe all arabs are thin, dark-skinned people without access to plastic chairs or sneakers.

Do you have any idea what this means to a strict Muslim fundamentalist?

Hint: What it DOESN'T mean is that he should go out and buy gold-looking ring that isn't really made of gold.

somebody has already pointed a website that sells "gold effect brass rings" with Islamic motifs.

I've posted pictures of Osama bin Laden, King Fahd, King ibn-Saud, Moammar Qaddaffi and King Abdullah all wearing what either is or appears to be gold.

Meanwhile, the jewelry site you linked is located in Great Britain, which is hardly an Islamic fundy stronghold.

Face it. You are grasping at straws while banking on American ignorance of some very basic precepts of Islamic fundamentalism.

just wondering..

The Prophet threw away his gold rings & made silver ones.

That implies that other jewelry is fine.

Now I've not watched the film, but having seen stills I find it hard to believe that anyone can tell if this ring is gold, silver, brass, or a cheap bit of plastic out a fucking christmas cracker.

clue.

Please roll that over in your mind slowly a few times before moving along.

Of course, there's nothing to see here -- move along. Again. Of course.

And I would describe things as gold, that are not actually gold.

Did you see that gold car? Gold is just shiny yellow.

I'm sure they are covering other lines of enquiry as well, but there may be something about the ring, that we don't know about.

is forbidden in Muslim fundamentalist communities? You know, the kind that al Qaeda supposedly wants to bring to the entire Pan-Arab world.

What else about the damn GOLD ring could POSSIBLY be more important than that?

Come on. Think hard now. I'm sure you can come up with something.

gold is banned, but gold-coloured is not necessarily. Btw can you tell if it's gold or silver, the colour of the whole video looks slightly yellowed.

Might this also be why the CIA are so interested in it?