What is the point of outing?

Do you remember Oliver "Bill" Sipple? Probably not. I remembered the person but had to search for the name. He became famous on 22 Sept 1975 when he saved Gerald Ford's life when Sarah Jane Moore attempted to assassinate him. He was not a Secret Service agent. He wasn't FBI. He was simply in the right place at the right time. He was also in the closet.

I remember as a kid reading about his life after he was outed. His dad didn't speak to him again. He wound up lamenting that his sexuality had nothing to do with having saved the President.

What message do you think I got from that little story? In my childish mind (I was 8 or 9) that no matter what I did if I were gay, and I had some idea I might be, it wouldn't be good enough to deserve the love of my family. I mean, saving the President's life (yes it was Ford but still) wasn't good enough to trump being gay.

When we chortle with glee about which famous conservative is gay and what the freepers may do if they find out, just what message do you think we send to that 8 or 9 year old who is reading over his dad's shoulder? Or that teen who is struggling with being gay?

Yes, I took the wrong message from that in my case. But looking at what happened to him afterward, it would have been hard to get a different message.

http://www.fact-index.com/o/ol/oliver_sipple.html

Sipple was a bystander as President Ford went to speak at the St. Francis hotel, located in San Francisco on September 22. According to what he told friends, he just wanted to catch a glimpse of the President that day.

Just as he was listening to President Ford, the would be murderer, Sara Jane Moore, grabbed a gun and pointed it at the President. Sipple grabbed the gun and wrestled her, but not before she could take one shot. Sipple was regarded as a hero by many, including the President himself.

The President took three days to thank Sipple for his act. Because of the delayed reaction by the President, the newspaper San Francisco Chronicle ran a story speculating that Sipple was homosexual. This severely affected Sipple's family life, as his mother died in 1979 with doubts of her son's sexuality. His father never spoke to him again. Sipple declared that My sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with saving the President's life, just as the color of my eyes or my race has nothing to do with what happened in front of the St. Francis Hotel.

Sipple sued the newspaper, but his case was dismissed. He then became an alcoholic, and he fought obesity. He had been turned down by a Veteran's Administration hospital a few weeks before passing away. He was found dead on February 2, 1989, but it was speculated he had been dead for about two weeks before he was found. At the time of his death, Sipple weighted more than 300 pounds. Sipple's funeral was attended by about 90 persons, but President Ford and his wife did not attend, choosing to send a letter of sympathy to his family and friends instead

end of quote

You may not intend to send the message that ended up being sent to me all those years ago, but trust me, kids aren't able to deal with the subilties of life. So as you gleefully think about Freepers dissing the lastest outed conservative, ask yourself what will your kids think? After all, the gay person who you diss, could wind up being your kid you never know until it is too late.

On edit I don't mean to imply in this post that I blame Sipple's alcoholism on the SF Chronicle. I only included that paragraph to both show that Sipple is dead and to show that Ford didn't attend the funeral. I can see why my post was taken the way it was but that isn't what I meant to say.

outing someone is embarrassing them in public...

than mean-spiritedness and small-mindedness then? I might be mistaken here, but my impression is that it is mostly gay activisst groups that do this, mainly to prominent conservatives. Perhaps they want to emphasize what they consider to be hypocrisy? Still pretty petty, though, in my opinion.

..I am so very shocked by your response! Why do you want to stoop to the level of right wing idiots, and out someone for the pleasure of embarrassment? You DO realize don't you, that you have just played right into the hands of the right wing, and have chosen to accept that being gay is an embarrassment?

If Sipple blamed his alcoholism on being outed, he was fooling himself. It was a convenient excuse for him to drink himself to death.

Shit happens.

but to conquer alcoholism one needs a support system and his was removed thanks to the outing. I only included that paragraph due to the part about Ford not attending the funeral. That surprised me.

Lots of gay drunks have gotten sober, many of them with no help at all from their families. Sipple lost some of his support, not all of it.

Again, shit happens. It's not an excuse to drink yourself to death.

so I have some idea.

but the fact remains that gay men and lesbians do have a higher rate of alcoholism than straights. My feeling is that the stresses and fears associated with being homosexual can be, for many people, a causative factor in alcoholism. Just an educated guess, I'm not trained in this or anything (but I am gay and I remember what it was like before I came out).

The whole alcohol related elements to gay culture (I have had only two dates in sobriety), a possible link to the gay and the alcoholism genes, and the various stressors etc. I have no idea why gayness and alcoholism is linked but it clearly is.

Link between gayness and alcoholism? I've never struggled with it myself and I'm gay as a May daisy.

In fact, I've never had a problem with any self-abusive behaviours.

There is a link between being black and having sickle cell or being male and being color blind. In both of the other cases very few of the large population have the disease but only a total idiot would deny a link.

Sensitivity TO the effects is genetic, but not being able to push yourself away from the table isn't.

even though I have pushed myself away from the table 4 years ago. You are mixing up practicing alcoholic (a person who is drinking too much) with an alcoholic ( a person with the disease of alcoholism). The second thing is genetic as you point out the first isn't.

If you choose to think that way, fine. I think it's goofy.

I've had several friends whose lives revolved around alcoholics anonymous, and I found it kinda sad. I think AA (unwittingly?) propogate the myth of alcoholism - once an alkie, always an alkie - and all that baloney. I just don't buy it at all.

But, live like you want to. Not hurting me any.

Just be careful saying there is some connection between being gay and being "alcoholic." Just because some studies show a higher propensity of gays having trouble with alcohol simply illustrates the fact that one of the few places for gays to socialize is in BARS.

given that I directly stated that one of the many possible theories was that gay life often revolves around bars. In point of fact I listed it before the linked theory. I also stated I had no idea which theory was correct. In any case, I have to say I know gay bars didn't have much to do with my drinking in that I didn't often do my drinking at them. That isn't to say that it isn't a usual factor for gay alcoholics as I am sure it is but it just wasn't one for me.

As to the rest of your post. As you point out it only really matters if it works for me. It does and that is enough for me.

"I have no idea why gayness and alcoholism is linked but it clearly is."

Now, if you can't see why I reacted, well, we're probably done anyway.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Unless you have proof otherwise?

I'll ignore the "idiot" comment as unbecoming of you.

It's true the link between homosexuality and alcoholism is merely statistical; but I don't see any reason for you to make such rude repudiations of the idea of a genetic link. It might be true; it might not be. Why are you being so unpleasant about it?

There is no statistical link between homosexuality and highger instances of alcoholism. It's complete junk science. Gays are no more prone to alcoholism than any other people-group. And to imply as such is to denigrate an entire subculture, which is highly offensive.

However, I have seen this silly idea being spread through AA for years - often repeated through gay-bashing groups such as Focus on the Family and Paul Cameron. Therefore I felt it needed to be refuted strongly.

Furthermore, I beleive it's unethical for a group, especially one like AA that should know better, to continue spreading this nonsense. I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps AA has found that it personally benefits by continuing to convince people that they are forever "sick" - and that it's no wonder - "after all, they're gay, and *everyone* knows gay people have more trouble with this than straight people."

If that's rude, so be it. No apologies here.

There MAY have been a higher correlation between homosexuality and alcoholism than in the general population. However, many of those studies have been called into question because in the past, gay bars were used to "find" study subjects. But it's likely that older homosexuals DID in fact have higher rates of alcoholism - it's just not very clear how much higher.

However, current information indicates that younger homosexuals (under 30) do not have a higher rate of alcoholism than the general population.

http://www.royy.com/pap.html

It's extremely weak. The one mention of the biological component is thus:

"Biological factors include growing evidence that both alcohol abuse and dependence and homosexuality have some genetic component. (11) There is also speculation of a chromosomal link between sexual orientation and the propensity for substance abuse and dependence. This is unlikely as male and female homosexuality is thought to be different phenomena with differing familial patterns. There is an equal incidence of substance abuse between gay men and lesbians. (12) (slide 5)"

The references are thus:

11: Pillard RC, Weinrich JD: Evidence of familial nature of male sexuality. Arch Gen Psychiatry 43:808-812, 1986.
12: Cabaj R, Stein T editors: Textbook of Homosexuality, APA press, 1996.

It's very critical to note that the author points out the fatal flaw in these "statistical" studies:

"There is no clear consensus on the actual prevalence, as most of the studies have had methodological errors including poor or absent control groups, unrepresentative samples (e.g. gathered data from bars), failure to use uniform definitions or substance abuse and dependence, or of homosexuality, and the "closet factor". (6)"

This is my point exactly. To even claim that excessive drinking is more prevalent in the gay community is not supported by good evidence. And even if it *is* more prevalent, the cause certainly cannot be pinpointed to genetics, as the author also points out:

"There is also speculation of a chromosomal link between sexual orientation and the propensity for substance abuse and dependence. *This is unlikely as male and female homosexuality is thought to be different phenomena with differing familial patterns. There is an equal incidence of substance abuse between gay men and lesbians.* (12)" Emphasis mine.

Finally, it's curious that this author lists among the recommendations, the following:

Alcoholics Anonymous can be very helpful in the treatment of the gay alcoholic.
You should remind clients that A.A. is not always as religious as many people think.
*Extending the powerlessness over alcohol concept to being powerless over being gay may be helpful.*
The 4th step, the moral inventory, may also be especially relevant to gay clients.
Most cities have gay or gay friendly A.A. meetings, and A.A. has a pamphlet for the gay alcoholic.

This is confusing. Are straight people encouraged to feel "powerless over heterosexuality"? How does that help, exactly?

Frankly, I think this recommendation only serves to further entrench the drinker into the victim thought-pattern: "Oh, poor me. This bad thing has happened to me, and I'm *powerless* to conquer it."

Bah. It's a false dichotomy.

But, interesting article. Any others that might be more appropros?

I am NOT advocating a biological link, per se; I'm just saying it's not proven one way or the other. All I'm asserting, factually, is that alcoholism *is* more prevalent among the GLBT cohort, especially gay men, than it is among heterosexuals. One can draw one's own conclusions from that, but nothing is proven or disproven either way.

I think, therefore, that it's a little strange for you to come down so vehemently on one side. It's not demeaning to gays to assert such a thing, any more than it's demeaning to African-Americans to discuss their propensity for Sickle Cell Anemia or to discuss Asians' inability to digest lactose. The only way it's demeaning is to assume that alcoholism itself is some sort of personal failing, which it is not.

so I sure wouldn't rule it out.

Do you believe being gay is genetic?

Maybe. I don't really care if it is or isn't. Even if at some point in the distant unmemorable past I did make a choice to be gay, it's still my choice, and I'm quite happy with it. It's not hurting me, or you, or anyone around me.

Equating that with excessive drinking, which does hurt you and the people around you, seems to me to be equivalent to equating it with paedophilia or gluttony.

If you think single exceptions disprove a rule, you might as well argue there's no link between cigarettes and cancer. Yes, your granny chain-smoked until she was 108.

So, no argument there.

is what I was referring to above. The evidence for it is exactly the same (a much higher percentage of smokers get heart disease than non smokers just as a much higher percentage of gays are alcoholics than straights). It is the very same methodology.

Honest - I would just really like to see where you're coming up with that statistical link. I promise I'll read it if you post it.

I will post it when I get home.

provided.

http://isd.usc.edu/~retter/suicstats.html

Nardi, P.M. (1982). "Alcoholism and Homosexuality: A Theoretical Perspective." In T.O. Ziebold & J.E. Mongeon (Eds.), *Alcoholism and Sexuality* (pp. 9-25). New York: Haworth Press.

Bell, A.P., et al (1978). *Homosexualities*. New York: Simon & Schuster.]
Rofes, E.E. (1983). "I Thought People Like That Killed Themselves." San Francisco: Grey Fox Press.

Saghir, M.T., & Robins, E. (1973). *Male and Female Homosexuality: A Comprehensive Investigation*. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins.

Saghir, M.T., et al (1970). "Homosexuality: III. Psychiatric Disorders and Disability in the Male Homosexual. *American Journal of Psychiatry, 126, 91-96.

Remafedi, G. (1987a). "Male Homosexuality: The Adolescent Perspective." *Pediatrics*, 79, 326-30.

Remafedi, G. (1987b). "Adolescent Homosexuality: Psychosocial and Medical Implications." *Pediatrics*, 79, 331-37.

Roesler, T., & Deisher, R.W. (1972). "Youthful Male Homosexuality." *Journal of The American Medical Association*, 219, 1018-23.

Also here is a link to a study with your view of it, but be sure to note that it also agrees with me as well.

http://www.royy.com/pap.html

There is a good deal of alcoholism and addiction in the gay community, but newer studies suggest that the incidence among younger homosexuals may be no greater than in the population at large. This article suggests that gay liberation in the 1970's may have spared male homosexuals now under 30 some of the misunderstanding, discrimination and hatred that drove older homosexuals to drink and drugs. It also suggests that older homosexuals may abuse drink and drugs to dull the pain of aging in an especially youth-oriented, beauty-driven homosexual culture.<2>This article discusses some of the treatment issues specific to homosexuals who abuse alcohol and drugs, and suggests the use of gay special-interest 12-Step groups to assist in treating internalized homophobia and in making some of the lifestyle changes beneficial to homosexuals in recovery .

end of quotes

I will admit that some are now challenging the assertion that alcoholism and homosexuality are linked but appearently even some of the people challenging that notion are doing so on the basis that the current generation of young gays are not more likely to be addicts than the general population. But since they apparently think the older ones still are and to some extent base that on age not timing you still have an increased incidence provided you have any older gays at all.

I would agree that excessive drinking (and smoking, BTW) are huge problems in the gay community. Whether the cause is genetic or otherwise - well, who knows, really. Older studies seemed to point to that, but newer ones dispute it.

Until the scientists sort it all out, how about focusing on the problem itself, rather than getting sidetracked on the "whys."

I would propose starting a new thread altogether on the pros and cons of various alcohol treatment programs. Would you care to start one? If not, maybe we should just let this one rest.

A statistical link doesn't have to be genetic. In the smoking example it would clearly not be genetic. It may well not be genetic here. I tend to think it is due to my family's experience (I have alcoholism and homosexuality on both sides of my family). But one example doesn't constitute proof.

There isn't a book of instructions that comes with gayness. People assume that gays have come to terms with being gay and that it's very settled. In fact many gays are conflicted about it, and don't always cope in a healthy way. Some dysfunctions are more unhealthy than others. Excessive drinking is clearly maladaptive.

I lived in SF then. And I remember being very proud of him. I supported his fight with the media as did many in the community. I am so sorry it turned out bad for him. It was, however, a very uplifting time for many in the community, as it was a very turbulent time to be Gay. Not as easy as today. As for outing, the pukes have made us a wedge issue and an object of derision. Hypocrisy must be exposed in politics. They will do anything to damage us, we should be prepared to deal with them likewise. after Monica ,all bets are off.

I was living in Ohio then, and admittedly didn't see the upside part. But in the final analysis it should have been his choice for better or worse.

Sure, like many more like me, I know an awful lot of gays who are still in the closet...some are famous, too.

But, let's focus on those who are already 'out'.

:-)

If the person in question is a closeted gay man, and he is someone who ridicules gays, or thwarts equal rights for them, or whatever, I think it is only the right thing to do to out them.

It's the truth, after all.

Call me old fashioned, but I personally feel the truth will set you free. The truth is the goal.

A hypocrite is a liar. I'm tired of liars.

But if they're not in the hypocrisy business, then I say, by all means leave them the hell alone.

First off, I do *NOT* believe that outing someone is a good idea (almost) ever.

It's cruel, it's degrading, it's just plain wrong.

**EXCEPT**

in instances where the closeted person is using his supposed 'heterosexual privilege' to demean and oppress other gay people.

Classic case in point: J. Edgar Hoover.

Hoover rooted out homosexuals in the FBI and the military, hounded them out of office, he had secret files of nearly everyone, and yet claimed that there was "no such thing as orgainzed crime" and he had a hands-off policy toward the Cosa Nostra...

Why? Because *they* had the goods on *him*! If someone had hauled off and outed J. Edgar Hoover and clyde Tolson, perhaps a lot of the abuses of power in the FBI (COINTELPRO comes to mind) might nave have happened!

It all depends on individual circumstances. If someone is just trying to live their life, Hell , leave 'em alone! But if they are using their supposed heterosxuality to stay in good graces with the conservatives they run with, while at the same time attacking other gays, I say NAIL the filthy bastards!!

309

:thumbsup:

preferences (if any) have never been determined. His extremely close relationship with Clyde Tolson was certainly 'suspicious' in this sense but there's no proof of anything going on, and Hoover's homophobia could have just as easily been symptom of a totally repressed (think Ashcroft) sexuality as symptom of self-loathing.



Cute couple?

don't let his recent photo ops fool ya, he is a swine and his outting would give SC repubs the shits!

at the same time there would be a very powerful and vocal political bloc

someone who is a closeted homosexual is in a position of power or influence in an organization that trades on anti-social and anti-gay policies. Example: Roy Cohn.

There are probably *lots* of people on this board who'd disown their own children if they saved Ford's life.

:)