What's your take on the issue of drivers licenses for illegal immigrants?

What's everyone's take on this situation? I'm completely against it. I'd rather not in any way support illegal immigrants who are working under the table, especially since most of them just send the money back home. I think that kind of behavior hurts the US economy.

Nobody even pretends to argue that undocumented aliens don't drive. They do. So given that, I'd like them to be licensed. As to them hurting the economy - let 'em all go on strike. You'll see what a hurting economy looks like.

and how dependent it is on workers from abroad before you start with the right wing scapegoating of hardworking immigrants.

You're right, I do need to learn how the US economy works. Could you point me to some good sources?

I know it sounds like I'm being a smartass..but I'm not. I'll openly admit I'm pretty ignorant about politics, economics, etc., and I'm kinda tired of it. I'd like to learn a crapload.

"America What Went Wrong" is the name of the book. The series of articles the book is based on won Pulitzer Prizes for it's writers at the Philly Enquirer. Great book and legally free. can't beat that deal with a stick...

http://www.politicalindex.com/wrong1.htm

Thanks!

though a bit heavy at times:

Nigel Harris, The New Untouchables.

He explains very clearly not just US economy but global economy too.

The main problem is not immigrants, it's corporations that are setting globalization policies that destroy economies of third world countries, including Mexico, that destroy good jobs in the US, and set in motion a process that victimizes everyone.

Immigrants are not to blame, and it's not a coincidence that the AFL-CIO is working to unionize immigrants, legal and nondocumented, is working to protect the rights of undocumented workers, and is working to help strengthen unions in third world countries.

They've realized that the enemy is not immigrants, legal or not. The enemy is corporations which have no sense of values, ethics, morality, etc.

but in-state tuition for illegals is just wrong. When an illegal immigrant can go to a U.S. university cheaper than my daughter can, I do have a problem with that.

then they are paying the taxes that support those universities. I once recall an Oregon resident was angry that it would cost his kid more money to attend a California university than it would cost an undocumented worker LIVING in California. What he failed to get was the undocumented worker pays taxes on his paycheck (yes the hotel , resaurant and agricultural industries take out taxes), he pays rent whih translates to property taxes and he pays sales taxes on everything he buys in the state.....all of which go to fund universities, unlike Oregon residents who don't pay taxes in California.

or rent her an apartment there for 1-2 years it takes to be a resident

unless, of course, you've been paying taxes in that state like the immigrant. then feel free to complain

good economics.

You are not better off when you hold others back from making a full contribution to society. You want to grease the skids so that everyone who wants to can have a chance to reach as high as they chose.

I just don't understand how people think their lot improves by holding back someone who is working hard and just wants to make their life better.

Could you please let me know how illegals go to school cheaper than legal residents. I would like to know why this is.

...school.

I believe that they don't ask you your citizenship. So you could be a legal immigrant (your parent works for the British consulate), illegal, or a fourth generation californian. As long as you went ot high school for 2 or 3 years in CA, you can go to Berkeley for something like 4,000 a year. (Cool huh?)

Well, there's a good reason for this: the UC system sees its mission as helping people from the working class become middle class, and helpint the children of the middle class stay middle class. That's an important mission. That's the core of lilberalism, incidentally.

Now, whether CA has a strong, functioning middle class shouldn't be regard to national citizenship. Whether you're that British kid, a child of New Yorkers who moved to CA, the 4th generation CA'ian, or the child of "illegal" immigrants, you're still there in CA, and you want to contribute to the state economy, and you want make CA work.

To hold back subcategories defeats the purpose. It acutally totally contradicts the purpose. Start denying smart people access to the middle class becaus of their parent's immigration status and you (1) deny yourself the benefits of that person's talents, and (2) perpetuate a low paid underclass which drives down wages and oppoortunities for the middle and working class (and only serves to make a few very rich people with leafs that need to be blown and chain-food restaraunts that need to be staffed richer).

I want to know how " an illegal immigrant can go to a U.S. university cheaper than my daughter can" this works.

Is the poster saying that because of CA's rules and because his daughte doesn't live in CA that it is cheaper for an illegal immigrant to go to college than his daugter?

If the person's daughter lives in CA does it still cost more for his daughter than it does for an illegal immigrant?

the point is somewhat moot, because I wound up sending my daughter to school in Hawaii. However, I live in Virginia, and there has been a lot of back-and-forth lately about in-state tuition for illegals.

My daughter spends most of her out-of-school time in Missouri, but she does spend some time with me in Virginia (about two months a year)and I am the one who will be paying the bills. Regardless of whatever sympathy we have for illegals, my daughter is in the United States legally, and I don't think I should have to pay more for tuition than someone who is not, especially since I live here and will be paying.

...for tuition -- one for people whose parents are citizens, and one for people whose parents aren't. (However, the do do this in the UK, and I could be wrong about some of the details.)

So if you're worrked about "illegal" immigrants' children paying less for college because they're illegal immigrants than your child will pay, it's a non issue. College costs what it costs.

I thought I made this clear in the previous post. What the poster is alluding to is the RESIDENCY requirement for paying in-state tuition and state universities. This doesn't have a thing to do with national citizenship (or even with state citizenship).

The purpose of state univiersities is to build up a strong middle class in the state, so they try to give breaks to people more likely to stay in the state -- people who return the investment on their education to the state. They can't tell you where you have to work after you graduate, but they chose something that correlates well to remaining in the state, and that's where you went to high school.

Now, national citizenship doesn't correltate to where you'll go after your educated, and clearly there are benefits to making sure that the children of illegal immigrants become functioning members of the middle class, so there are many good arguments for NOT denying these kids the same right to an affordable education that other studetns meeting the state residency requirement receive.

So, bottom line: if you meet the state residency requirment you get the cheaper tuition and the leg up on out of state applicants because you are more likely to return the state's investment in CA. I see no logical reason for penalizing anyone who meets the residency requirement just because their parents are undocumented. That doesn't change the fact that CA is your home, that you're trying to get an education, and that you want to be a productive member of society.

To penalize those students is to give a subsidy to other studnets who might not be working as hard and who don't need as much help to enter and stay in the middle class.

or the Americas legally come here to work, pay taxes, drive cars.

I can share.

This was THEIR land LONG before the european colonials got here, they're entitled to all rights and privileges of moving freely about this hemisphere without impediment.

But if they're coming into the States illegally, then who's to say what other laws they'll simply shrug off?? Plus, look at all the other immigrants who are here legally, who had to go through all the paperwork and red tape and waiting time, and these other snots just sneak in? I imagine the legal immigrants would be quite upset..

about this nation and our adjacent nations as they have done for centuries.

Canada and the US allow our native Americans to traverse the border freely without impediment. I say we should allow all natives to the US, Canada and Central Americas to travel freely, work, drive, live and inhabit the country they're native to.

Seems really silly to regulate all that stuff and nonsense.

(didn't want to say Native Americans because in the subject's context it would've sounded pretty stupid) :)

I agree with you, let natives freely roam their native countries. But last time I checked, people from Mexico, Russia, Poland, etc., are not native to the US.

I think a lot of people use this illegal immigrants issue to target Mexicans. I'm definitely not doing that. I don't care what country they're from, I think they should go through the proper procedures to become legit. That's just my opinion.

If they are here paying taxes, and they do on everything they buy including gas, rent (homeowner or apt owner pays property taxes) then they are contributing.

Also, the hotel, restaurant and agricultural industries pay with paycheck and deductions taken out.

It would harm the economy more if they weren't here providing cheap labor.

How could an illegal immigrant have any taxes besides sales tax? They're undocumented, they have no SSN, no credit. Every time I've tried to rent an apartment, they want to do a credit check.

What about work? They must be paid under the table, right? Since the govt has no documents on them.

it is easy to obtain false documents, fake ssns, fake green cards, I can get you some for say, 250 bucks. you want in?

Many people are paid as "consultants" or 'independant contractors" meaning they, not their employers, are responsible for taxes. and they do live somewhere, right? there are probalby 20,000 in DC alone, they aren't all living on the streets. perhaps in your tax bracket, credit checks are required, but much of the US economy is based on cash only.

work "under the table". They work on farms, in restaurants, hotels, etc. and have regular paychecks from which taxes are deducted.

and they pay rent to live in an apartment and some of that rent goes to property taxes. More likely they will pay social security and federal taxes on their check and then not file to get it back since they fear being caught.

Be that as it may, whenever the economy goes bad, Mexicans are the first ones to be scapegoated by white males as though white males would go pick grapes and onions.

and, believe me, if you use the roads, you want other peoplle on the roads who at least read through the rules once.

Also, it increases the chances that a person will be insured.

Say you want to be insured, but you can't get a license. Well, you can't get the insurance without the license, so you definitely won't be insured.

If you let people get the license, then they're more likely to get insured.

And again, trust me. your life is going to be a lot easier if you get hit by an insured driver.

Illegal immigrants, another example of how the "MAN" feeds his greed.

and we have many illegal aliens, mostly farm workers. If they are good enough to pick our produce then they should be allowed to drive legally, if you dint like it then go pick your own lettuce or better yet go stake out farms that use these laborers and stop them. Notice how the right wing never blames the people that actually hires them, just the workers themselves.

in fact, I think that we should all carry national ID cards to prove wee are citizens or legal residents. you don't have that card, and be able to show it on demand, than you are immediately removed from circulation until you can a: prove you are legal, or b: can be deported to whence you came.

Anyone who hires someone, for any task, without that proof of residence, should be fined ten times the amount paid for the service, and serve one day at hard labour for each day, or portion thereof, that person worked for them. This fine will be split between the taxpayers and the person who reported the incident.

great. let's keep this country pure and decent already.

"let's keep this country pure and decent"?

I was afraid that line might give it away, but some people need the sledgehammer, y'know?

thanks for the laugh!

Any document can be forged. If there was a national ID card requirement then illegals will have one too.

I understand what you are saying, I'm just adding a little to it.

the cards have biometric information on them (height, weight, eyecolor, etc.) and even a fingerprint. It is the responsibility of the employer to compare that data with the data provided by calling a 800 number (or visiting aweb site) and entering the unique number. The employer then gets a copy of the biometric information and can compare it.

if there is a problem? then you go to the fingerprints.

First we should ask who employs the immigrants. Then we should decide how to legally employ them (that would mean paying a decent or at least minimum wage.) If the employers would pay a decent living wage more legals would take the jobs. So, we should be going after the employers not the employees. The whole scam is that businesses do not have to pay minimum wages but nothing happens to them. It is the illegal laborors who get into trouble. Go figure.

This has got to be the only thing I've ever heard of where we want to help something illegal! Isn't that aiding & abeting?

Why are they illegal? What's wrong with the idea if somewon wants to work in the US, they get a visa? You know, make them legal workers!

If youur excuse is that it's too hard to get a visa, then why aren't we fighting to fix THAT operation? It just seems to me that granting licenses to illegals isn't addressing the problem.

Finally, someone understands.

If someone wants to come here and work, and drive around and contribute to the pollution, then damn it they'd better be here legally.

so I'm curious.
What would be your opinion if we decided to loosen our policies and let more people in legally?

If it's legal, then no problem. I'm not sure what our policies are, but I think people need to be heavily background checked for any ties to terrorism or espionage. Who knows how many people are in this country with bad intentions?

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the requirements are for someone to become a legal worker here? Or a citizen?

I wasn't referring to background checks, ect... when I said loosen up, I was referring to the numbers allowed in in general.

Well, obviously we don't want the country to be overcrowded like China has been. I really don't know what is realistic as far as numbers go. What do other countries do? Stop allowing people after a certain point?

I don't know enough about immigration law to answer all your quesions. I know many other countries have limits placed, however.
I get concerned about xenophobia however, and how big a part that plays in these policies. Any study of history will show how large a contribution various immigrant groups (many of them HATED as they got started) have made to our country. I don't have any desire to miss out on new contributions. They have made us what we are today.
As for China... their issues have nothing to do with immigration.

I know China's issues have nothing to do with immigration. I was using it as an example of a country being overcrowded.

They should be able to get drivers' licenses.

Do you have any education at all? Have you ever worked? Where do you live?

A bit of a cipher here.

Yes I have some college education. I work full time and have been in the work force since 1992. I live in the west suburbs of Chicago.

What is the point of your questioning?

You keep asking for directions knowledge. What does it take to become a citizen?

But you KNOW about the economy. And you obviously are against most immigration--especially illegal. Were any of your ancestors immigrants?

Where did you get that I was against most immigration? I never said that. OBVIOUSLY America would not be where it is today were it not for immigrants. Were any of my ancestors immigrants? Well, I'm half Italian, quarter Ukrainian, quarter Serbian.. so does that answer your question? Aren't most Americans' ancestors immigrants??

And no, I don't know too much about the economy, as I stated in another post in this thread. I wish I did know more. All I know is what I hear & read.. things like, when consumers stop buying, it hurts the economy. So from those bits of knowledge I draw conclusions. That's why I was under the impression that illegal immigrants who work and send most of their money back home are hurting the US economy. If they're not piping their money back into the US... isn't that causing problems?

Immigrants sent millions of dollars back to Ireland; "The American Letter" was famous in the old country. But they spent quite a bit here--because they were living here. Rent, food, clothing, etc.

Many immigrants from Mexico & points south use my grocery store. They stand in line at the courtsey booth to wire money home. They can pay their utilities at the same window. Then they go buy groceries. Is the problem that some of them could be undocumented? Or that they are sending money back? Or that they're brown?

Perhaps you can do some research on your own. "I was under the impression" doesn't carry a lot of weight.

The problem is not that they're brown, that's absurd. As I said before, I don't care what country they're from, what skin color they are. If they're here illegally, they should not receive approval for that by receiving drivers licenses, or the many other amenities legal immigrants get.

The problem is this: they're sneaking around our laws to get immediate satisfaction, while tens of thousands of people from other countries do the proper footwork to get into the US, which requires time and effort. It's like the jerk who cuts into a long line. Check out noahmijo's post (#46), he's right on.

Plus, you didn't respond to my statement about the economy. Is that not how it works around here? If consumers stop spending, it hurts US economy, correct? If 2 million US citizens stopped spending on leisure, and only spent money on rent, food, and clothing, would it damage our economy? I admittedly don't know much about economics, but I have a very strong feeling that such an act would DESTROY us.

But I suppose if it's just a small group of residents sending money out of the country, and they're still being taxed, then it's not much harm done.

more people would learn the basics of the rules of the road.

That if they cause an accident here in the states they have to be responsible for it. Currently on the border states if an illegal or even a Mexican that is legally here but not a US citizen causes an accident, they get away with it even if they have no insurance.

Meantime you crash into someone in Mexico and have no insurance, your ass will be thrown into one of the dirtiest cells that will make any American cell seem like a room at the Hilton.

That is why I say no liscence untill the other side cleans up their act on this issue, and we have to clean up ours as well and demand responsibility.

Those of you who live in the non-border states probably have no clue what I'm talking about, but believe me come down to Arizona especially during shopping season and see how many times you get run off the road or cut off, or accidents occurring.

In Mexico traffic laws are lax at best. They make Manhatten's look strict. People just drive their own way there, and when they get to the states they don't change their habits.

Overall I would prefer to support speeding up the legalization process for Mexican illegals that really do come here to work as opposed to handing out an entity that should only be reserved for citizens.

If you think that's rough go actually ask some Mexicans that are here legally what they think of giving a hand-out like that to illegals. You can start with my family.

the u.s. economy would tank without the illegal workers. yes, they need transportation to work. let their employers provide it, along with decent housing. let the employer pay a decent wage, with benefits, and we'll see if u.s. citizens will do the jobs.

as a former resident of mexico (7 years) i have a personal problem with this. legal foreign residents have to jump through hoops (bribery) to get a driver's license, and even after putting in the time and doing the paper work to become a mexican citizen, can't vote there. it's a one-way street, with the very corrupt govt demanding handouts without oversight; they scream "national sovereignty violated!" yearly over certification to receive u.s. money to fight drug trafficking, which is clearly a losing battle.

i know we have illegal immigrants from other countries, but mexico sends by far the most, and is the only hispanic nation and third world nation in north america, so please don't accuse me of picking on them, okay? it's a rich country whose elected officials have no interest in doing anything for their own citizens.

without regard to country of origin or past, present or future immigration status. Unlicensed drivers is recipe for disaster.